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Author Topic: Why is the Occupy movement not immediately embracing bitcoin?  (Read 16011 times)
Rassah
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October 16, 2011, 11:23:39 PM
 #201

I think using "that's how the system works as a justification is a cop-out answer that is used for justifying some pretty terrible views. None of our ancestors, from those who served under feudal lords, to the people who fought for civil rights for women and minorities, ever fully accepted "the way things are" - if they had, none of us would be as well off today as we are.

I did not mean to imply "that's the way things are,"I meant to imply that's the natural progression of things. Like there is a natural progression for people whi's rights are restricted for no reason to get more and more equal rights, there is a progression for business to becompe less and less regulated, or the government trying to regulate the business more and more corrupt by those they are trying to regulate.

Hm, maybe? I wouldn't know. I don't go to Harvard. Just lucky to have gotten into this school (though busted my butt like crazy to get in there). My parents aren't rich, and I'm paying for the $30k a year or so that it costs pretty much entirely out of my own pocket and through loans.

While hard work + out-of-pocket/"bootstraps" stories are inspirational, but they are the exception, not the rule.

I don't see why what I did wasn't that particularly hard. I didn't even have all that good of grades in high school. Just took some part time community college classes while working, then took out a loan to go to one university to finish my bachelors, then after graduating found a job (which i might add pays WAY below my skill level), and while working there took out a loan to get my masters degree, taking classes in the evenings part time.This isn't particularly hard. The only major difference between my friends and me is that I don't have every video game console out, don't buy games and movies all the time, don't buy junk and trinkets every time i want something, don't go to a restaurant every week, have only the most basic cable, don't buy clothes unless i need them, eat the cheapest stuff I can find, drive a crappy old car with 200k+ miles on it, and don't have a lot of free time what with the work, classes, homework, and some extracurriculars I do. So, you want to be the "bootstraps" rich guy? Just don't waste your money on shit and get better priorities. That's about it.


I would rather there be no winners and no losers than a few winners and a ton of losers, but I genuinely care for my fellow human beings. I also don't believe in this "lazy welfare recipient" meme; welfare is not some glorious thing. People want to be productive, nobody likes feeling useless. The best solution you can have for this is to offer a bunch of "public works" programs to allow them to take on jobs that make them feel productive while they are in-between full-time public service jobs or private industry careers, Of course there will be freeloaders - that happens, but it is far more better to deal with a few freeloaders than demean ourselves as a species as cast those who cannot get work, are too disabled, or are too depressed to be motivated to the side like trash instead of taking care of them and leaving open opportunities for them to improve themselves.

I'm not against the idea of infrastructure or welfare for those who genuinely need it. But if everyone was equal with no winners or losers, everyone would be a loser, since why bother working if you know you'll be taken care of anyway? What's the drive/incentive to be better if you know you won't be a winner even if you try to be?

My anger at the "rich" comes from the fact that I know that the ratio of 'labor/work' they do compared to the laborers at the bottom is much different than the ratio of pay they both receive.

Well, the reason for that is because not many can do the stuff the "rich" can, but plenty can do the stuff the laborers can. It's really just simple supply and demand. If laborers demand to get higher pay, someone else wil come around and offer to take the limited number of jobs for a lower pay (like Chinese and Indians did). The whole union and minimum wage thing may have worked when we were more or less isolated, but in a globalized world we entered just 15 years ago, free market is king. There's no more single all-encompasing rules to keep workers from competing for jobs. So, the only option we have, really, is to create a one-world government that passes minimum wage laws globally (impossible), or have workers become more and more skilled with more unique and specialized skills. Lucky for them, we now have plenty of evidence that the sweatshops people were complaining about ten years ago do, in fact, progress to more competition for employees, which means higher wages and better working conditions. Though if you have a better, WORKABLE idea of how to solve that problem, i'm all ears.

Also, finance very much does suck money off labor: it may not be directly; but it still does. It's similar to what I said above. Debtors/investors are actually laborers often, too.

Finance is a tool and a service that at the very core simply tries to match up risk with the estimated cost of that risk, nothing more. People with too low an income are too much of a risk, and shouldn't attempt to buy things like videogames, junk, and even houses, with borrowed money.

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evoorhees
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October 17, 2011, 02:01:16 AM
 #202


Microorganisms are the most advanced species on the planet. You would die without them. They have existed for hundreds of millions of years and will outlive us. They can live for thousands of years and even survive interplanetary travel hitchhiking on a rock. One of them can kill you or your whole species.

Yeah but they don't have Xbox. Humans FTW
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October 17, 2011, 06:51:43 AM
 #203

Why?

Because 0.1% guys hold 50% of Bitcoins. It's worse than Wall Street.
cbeast
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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October 17, 2011, 11:12:49 AM
 #204

Calling all early adopters. Bitcoin is cheap enough now that you can potentially earn 10x your money. It has seen $30 before and may again if you act now and buy at $3. Now you can own 99% of bitcoin and be the 1%

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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October 17, 2011, 11:16:59 AM
 #205

Why?

Because 0.1% guys hold 50% of Bitcoins. It's worse than Wall Street.

Discussed here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=47747.0

This stats is BS. I own none of the addresses in there. But if I had combined all my addresses into one I'd be high up the list. So am i one of the 0.1% of oscenely rich guys or am I 50 poor guys?

And even if true - anyone can currently buy BTC 1000 - it's less than $4000. So your chance. Buy BTC 1000 and you may be one of the richest people on the planet in 10 years. So stop complaining and buy.

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JA37
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October 17, 2011, 11:20:02 AM
 #206

Red makes an excellent analysis in this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=48521.0

Ponzi me: http://fxnet.bitlex.org/?ref=588
Thanks to the anonymous person who doubled my BTC wealth by sending 0.02 BTC to: 1BSGbFq4G8r3uckpdeQMhP55ScCJwbvNnG
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October 17, 2011, 06:06:55 PM
 #207


And even if true - anyone can currently buy BTC 1000 - it's less than $4000. So your chance. Buy BTC 1000 and you may be one of the richest people on the planet in 10 years. So stop complaining and buy.


Sorry, my fault - it's just $2600.

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Ragnar
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October 17, 2011, 06:10:30 PM
 #208

Red makes an excellent analysis in this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=48521.0
That people's jealousy could hinder Bitcoin?

"Dare to liberate your mind, from all things, old and new."
Rassah
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October 17, 2011, 06:21:41 PM
 #209


And even if true - anyone can currently buy BTC 1000 - it's less than $4000. So your chance. Buy BTC 1000 and you may be one of the richest people on the planet in 10 years. So stop complaining and buy.


Sorry, my fault - it's just $2600.

Sorry, just sold $2,400 worth of Bitcoin over last 24 hours to pay for my flight and hotel to London. My bad!
Besides, I was just "using them" like the anti-hoarders/speculators said I should be.

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October 17, 2011, 06:38:22 PM
 #210

This link was end to me by a friend who did a Bitcoin promotion during the occupy demonstration in Amsterdam last Saturday (look right in the middle):

http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2720/Nieuws/photoalbum/detail/2968967/309348/25/Occupy-demonstratie-trekt-dik-1000-man-in-Amsterdam.dhtml

The site is one of the larger news papers in the Netherlands
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October 17, 2011, 07:36:44 PM
 #211

Perhaps they are unable to be duped by the promises of the Bitcon community.

I'll keep my politics out of your economics if you keep your economics out of my politics.

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JA37
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October 17, 2011, 07:46:08 PM
 #212

Red makes an excellent analysis in this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=48521.0
That people's jealousy could hinder Bitcoin?

That people who aren't already in the game have little incentive to join.

Ponzi me: http://fxnet.bitlex.org/?ref=588
Thanks to the anonymous person who doubled my BTC wealth by sending 0.02 BTC to: 1BSGbFq4G8r3uckpdeQMhP55ScCJwbvNnG
Rassah
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October 17, 2011, 07:50:05 PM
 #213

Red makes an excellent analysis in this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=48521.0
That people's jealousy could hinder Bitcoin?

That people who aren't already in the game have little incentive to join.

That's where networking effects come in, and what the community needs to build. Even people who hate facebook and twitter eventually join just because their friends are on there. If bitcoin starts being accepted everywhere, even SomethingAwfull goons will have no choice but to embrace it.

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October 17, 2011, 07:58:08 PM
 #214

That's where networking effects come in, and what the community needs to build. Even people who hate facebook and twitter eventually join just because their friends are on there. If bitcoin starts being accepted everywhere, even SomethingAwfull goons will have no choice but to embrace it.

Have a look at Red's post. It's a good post that details the problem.
You think Tenebrix was unfair with 7M premined coins? Well, try Bitcoin that in about a year will have 50% premined. A tiny minority controls 50% of all coins, leaving the rest of the world to split the rest. If the rich minority stop mining, which they won't do. Try to get acceptance for that system from those who believe that the current elite have a too big share of the wealth.

Ponzi me: http://fxnet.bitlex.org/?ref=588
Thanks to the anonymous person who doubled my BTC wealth by sending 0.02 BTC to: 1BSGbFq4G8r3uckpdeQMhP55ScCJwbvNnG
Ragnar
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October 17, 2011, 08:06:46 PM
 #215

That's where networking effects come in, and what the community needs to build. Even people who hate facebook and twitter eventually join just because their friends are on there. If bitcoin starts being accepted everywhere, even SomethingAwfull goons will have no choice but to embrace it.

Have a look at Red's post. It's a good post that details the problem.
You think Tenebrix was unfair with 7M premined coins? Well, try Bitcoin that in about a year will have 50% premined. A tiny minority controls 50% of all coins, leaving the rest of the world to split the rest. If the rich minority stop mining, which they won't do. Try to get acceptance for that system from those who believe that the current elite have a too big share of the wealth.
Since when has wealth been a limited pie? I'm lost with you folks.

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Rassah
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October 17, 2011, 08:28:55 PM
 #216

That's where networking effects come in, and what the community needs to build. Even people who hate facebook and twitter eventually join just because their friends are on there. If bitcoin starts being accepted everywhere, even SomethingAwfull goons will have no choice but to embrace it.

Have a look at Red's post. It's a good post that details the problem.
You think Tenebrix was unfair with 7M premined coins? Well, try Bitcoin that in about a year will have 50% premined. A tiny minority controls 50% of all coins, leaving the rest of the world to split the rest. If the rich minority stop mining, which they won't do. Try to get acceptance for that system from those who believe that the current elite have a too big share of the wealth.

If we sit on our coins doing nothing, they aren't worth anything. If we use them and spend them, they will keep getting distributed through the rest of society. OP's claims could have also been applied to Google stock (or any stock, really), yet people still buy. Those same people can be just as ignorant about bitcoin as they have been about stocks.
Besides, considering the concentration of USD, I'd think people would be used to bitcoin.

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October 17, 2011, 11:48:24 PM
 #217

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I don't want to pay taxes, but I also don't want to rely upon government services. Unfortunately, they do not allow competition, so I have no choice.

There is plenty of competition.  There are 196 countries in the world for you to choose from and find the government most to your liking.  There are plenty of countries that will let you live as a subsistence farmer and never trouble you for taxes at all. 

"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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October 18, 2011, 12:02:39 AM
 #218

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I don't want to pay taxes, but I also don't want to rely upon government services. Unfortunately, they do not allow competition, so I have no choice.

There is plenty of competition.  There are 196 countries in the world for you to choose from and find the government most to your liking.  There are plenty of countries that will let you live as a subsistence farmer and never trouble you for taxes at all.  

I have visited about 19 of them and lived in four seperate continents. Different sceneries, different people but different political systems? No. You have to look where the money flows, my friend. Political sovereignty today is a myth. If we look at the UN and our current banking system, there is now a higher power and it isn't our governments. I don't know why people haven't figured this out yet. We are becoming more globalized by the second. We'll see if the coming powers know what they are doing.

"Dare to liberate your mind, from all things, old and new."
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October 18, 2011, 12:23:45 AM
 #219

Subsistence farmers pay no mind.

Anyway, I've only lived in the US and here in London but I've noticed a ton of difference in systems of government.  It's just that the solutions to common problems tend to be similar at the macro level, but even among states in the US there is a wide difference in laws from who you can marry to what medicine you can use to how much tax you pay.  There was another poster here in the past who talked extensively about how the UN banking system controls the world, he had much less life experience than you but I think both you and he have missed how much variety there can be in how people live even aside from financial matters.

"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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I never hashed for this...


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October 18, 2011, 03:32:03 AM
 #220

Quote
I don't want to pay taxes, but I also don't want to rely upon government services. Unfortunately, they do not allow competition, so I have no choice.

There is plenty of competition.  There are 196 countries in the world for you to choose from and find the government most to your liking.  There are plenty of countries that will let you live as a subsistence farmer and never trouble you for taxes at all.  

I have visited about 19 of them and lived in four seperate continents. Different sceneries, different people but different political systems? No. You have to look where the money flows, my friend. Political sovereignty today is a myth. If we look at the UN and our current banking system, there is now a higher power and it isn't our governments. I don't know why people haven't figured this out yet. We are becoming more globalized by the second. We'll see if the coming powers know what they are doing.

Ragnar I feel like I've read all these exact posts somewhere before but I just can't put my finger on it...
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