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Author Topic: Lauda, MinerJones, Blazed | Missing escrow funds  (Read 25841 times)
Max199131
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August 29, 2018, 08:15:16 PM
 #201

well, the refund "will" happen.

Quote
ton, [29 Aug 2018 at 00:21:11]:
The final refund amount is 1,393.94415407 BTC[1], which correlates to the initial estimate of ~1400 BTC. The *official* timeline is as follows:

1) Thursday, August 30 - Vote closes.
2) Friday, August 31 - Snapshot[2].
3) Saturday, September 1 - Refunds begin[3].
Notes:
[1] Once I have a total transaction fee estimate, this amount will be appropriately truncated at a certain decimal. This will also be mentioned in one of the following posts.
[2] The snapshot time will be random (i.e. exact time of day will not be announced) to prevent any adversary from gaming the system. Everyone is advised to remove any sell orders that you might have on the market and/or move to an appropriate wallet if necessary. If you own the private key to the address where your NVST is, then you are good to go. You, and only you, are liable in the event that you fail to adhere to adhere to this. The snapshot will be archived and a link to it will be provided to the public.
[3] The amount of time for all refunds to be processed can not be estimated. I'll be available every single day until this is completed, but each transaction requires another signatory. Every transaction will be created and verified manually. There is no room for errors.

Appendix:
1) The address 1HF9qmvVz6EMu5ihjkbstpBwAVb9jdm9Lh will be excluded from the refunds. On it are unallocated tokens which can't be distributed. This issue stems from a chain of events which led to essentially what I'd call, theft of both the NVO domain and the database. The amount on it is 449,660.58536489 NVST, which represents 2.9977372357659333% of the supply. The exact percentage of the refund balance, which is 41.78678295 BTC will be set aside until a solution to this issue is found. I have decided to not let this issue delay the refund.
2) Therefore, the amount of issued tokens is 15 000 000 - 449,660.58536489 = 14 550 339.4146. The amount of BTC that will be refunded over this amount is 1,393.94415407 - 41.78678295 = 1352.15737112. This represents a rate of 0.00009292961 BTC/NVST. Example ~ refund amounts:
1k NVST -> 0.09292961 BTC.
10k NVST -> 0.9292961 BTC.
100k NVST -> 9.292961 BTC.

From Lauda, escrow

what is still missing is the prove that this is the correct amount.

i dont care about the money. telegram is full of messages that you get XX.XX$ and that this is more than you have invested. But in BTC you lost 55%.
and i dont really care about this neither.

i just cant stand the ignorance and the arrogance of the escrows. and what is even worth is that a lot of people just say: "hey, I get some money back. I dont care how this was handled and calculated".

to give some money back is just a loop hole.


We are in two vlom... people seems happy to have wasted one year of time in a project that was "supposed" to be revolutionizing... I still like the concept of NVO but saying that it has been poor handled and managed is a compliment...
The investors will get nuts while the escrows and the team are gonna walk away with some thousand USD for free...
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August 29, 2018, 08:17:46 PM
 #202

Based on the amount of bitcoin missing/unaccounted for, the escrow “fee” is in the millions of dollars and nears 1,000 btc, and exceeds 60% of what is being disbursed.
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August 29, 2018, 08:25:19 PM
 #203

what is still missing is the prove that this is the correct amount.

i dont care about the money. telegram is full of messages that you get XX.XX$ and that this is more than you have invested. But in BTC you lost 55%.
and i dont really care about this neither.

i just cant stand the ignorance and the arrogance of the escrows. and what is even worth is that a lot of people just say: "hey, I get some money back. I dont care how this was handled and calculated".

to give some money back is just a loop hole.

Ya, that amount is literally hundreds of BTC away from what has been determined in this thread, correct?

It seems nobody was happy with the development, so no more than 30% of the BTC should have ever been released.  They said that one of the recipients refused their share, so the amount should have actually been lower.  Then you have all the altcoins and forked coins, which made up a hefty sum that should have resulted in most of the BTC if not all being recovered for investors, no?  How they could lose 55% of their BTC while in escrow with no product to show for it is insane.  Escrows walking away with a payday in this scenario is absolutely fraudulent.  I really hope they decide to do the right thing in the end, but as has been stated on Lauda's trust feedback long ago, "Sometimes hope for betterment is wasted."

Correct, but we have no way of proving the calculations here without the collaboration from escrow (or someone tracking the txs trail)... we still haven't a clue about the forks too...
No statement from the "CEO" about the fact that he wrote himself that only 30% of funds have been spent... So why we get a bit more than 40%? Wouldn't be correct to return all the money since this project is a total disaster?

No statement from Ton too about the fact that the team is still in possession of 100 and more BTC from the milestones...
Then he's telling us "I won't do any ICO no more, maybe I will airdrop some token to the holders"... well thank you very much since you are still sitting on our money that you didn't return...
Easy to risk money that they never had to work for...

Based on the amount of bitcoin missing/unaccounted for, the escrow “fee” is in the millions of dollars and nears 1,000 btc, and exceeds 60% of what is being disbursed.
I don't know if 1000BTC are all being taken from the escrows... what I know is that there is no TXID, no addresses to which the milestone were released, no accounting due to "investors safety" issues, no proof that the numbers from Lauda are correct...  
Only the one I have personally tracked and after following the transactions I can assure that the team got still at least 100BTC that will never be returned...
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August 29, 2018, 11:49:21 PM
 #204

i dont care about the money
Yes you do, you wouldn't be here if you don't  Roll Eyes
telegram is full of messages that you get XX.XX$ and that this is more than you have invested. But in BTC you lost 55%.
Can you clarify this?
For example, if you invested 1BTC you should get 1BTC refund and forked coins. What is this $ nonsense?

Can you say, if it is not secret, how many bitcoins you had invested and how many bitcoins you will receive back?

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August 30, 2018, 01:23:06 AM
 #205

i dont care about the money
Yes you do, you wouldn't be here if you don't  Roll Eyes
telegram is full of messages that you get XX.XX$ and that this is more than you have invested. But in BTC you lost 55%.
Can you clarify this?
For example, if you invested 1BTC you should get 1BTC refund and forked coins. What is this $ nonsense?

Can you say, if it is not secret, how many bitcoins you had invested and how many bitcoins you will receive back?


I don't know if vlom is an investor or if he holds NVST, if he would he would be just more entitled to an answer from escrow, I am an investor too but nobody gave me an answer...

As I wrote over, I don't know vlom invested something but I will clarify for me at least... at ico end we got (more or less) 1 NVST for 0.00020367 BTC (1.40USD right now)... I invested about 0.10BTC and got a bit more than a 1000NVST back

But what we will get now will be 0.00009292961 about 0.65USD which is yes a bit more than what we invested but in USD, in BTC we got less than the half...
The point here, for me at least, is about clarity and give an account of how the funds were handled by escrow and used by the team...

As I've said many times already, the team still holds more than 100BTC than will never be returned, there is no mention of where and to who the forks went, there is no mention of why the 2nd milestone (which was blocked by the escrows) won't be returned too...

The ceo himself said that 40% of the funds have been used... nonetheless we will get just a bit more than 40% refund while the rest (~20%) will get probably sucked off by the team and escrows...
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August 30, 2018, 01:34:36 AM
 #206

i dont care about the money
Yes you do, you wouldn't be here if you don't  Roll Eyes
telegram is full of messages that you get XX.XX$ and that this is more than you have invested. But in BTC you lost 55%.
Can you clarify this?
For example, if you invested 1BTC you should get 1BTC refund and forked coins. What is this $ nonsense?

Can you say, if it is not secret, how many bitcoins you had invested and how many bitcoins you will receive back?
From what I understand, the refund is not going to 1:1, because 60% was spent of development and other things. The remaining would be 40%+ forks which is ~60%.  This is the rate for the refund:

The final refund amount is 1,393.94415407 BTC[1], which correlates to the initial estimate of ~1400 BTC. The *official* timeline is as follows:

  • 1) Thursday, August 30 - Vote closes.
  • 2) Friday, August 31 - Snapshot[2].
  • 3) Saturday, September 1 - Refunds begin[3].

Notes:
[1] Once I have a total transaction fee estimate, this amount will be appropriately truncated at a certain decimal. This will also be mentioned in one of the following posts.
[2] The snapshot time will be random (i.e. exact time of day will not be announced) to prevent any adversary from gaming the system. Everyone is advised to remove any sell orders that you might have on the market and/or move to an appropriate wallet if necessary. If you own the private key to the address where your NVST is, then you are good to go. You, and only you, are liable in the event that you fail to adhere to adhere to this. The snapshot will be archived and a link to it will be provided to the public.
[3] The amount of time for all refunds to be processed can not be estimated. I'll be available every single day until this is completed, but each transaction requires another signatory. Every transaction will be created and verified manually. There is no room for errors.

Appendix:
1) The address 1HF9qmvVz6EMu5ihjkbstpBwAVb9jdm9Lh will be excluded from the refunds. On it are unallocated tokens which can't be distributed. This issue stems from a chain of events which led to essentially what I'd call, theft of both the NVO domain and the database. The amount on it is 449,660.58536489 NVST, which represents 2.9977372357659333% of the supply. The exact percentage of the refund balance, which is 41.78678295 BTC will be set aside until a solution to this issue is found. I have decided to not let this issue delay the refund.
2) Therefore, the amount of issued tokens is 15 000 000 - 449,660.58536489 = 14 550 339.4146. The amount of BTC that will be refunded over this amount is 1,393.94415407 - 41.78678295 = 1352.15737112. This represents a rate of 0.00009292961 BTC/NVST. Example ~ refund amounts:
1k NVST -> 0.09292961 BTC.
10k NVST -> 0.9292961 BTC.
100k NVST -> 9.292961 BTC.

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August 30, 2018, 07:41:16 PM
 #207

an other problem is that people get exhausted. Exhausted because you have to try and try and try. but nothing happens. what should i do now? does it change anything if i am asking the same question every day? will i get an answer this way? i expect an answer. and i dont think that something will change. the escrows will get away with it and the so called devs too.
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August 30, 2018, 09:50:51 PM
 #208

an other problem is that people get exhausted. Exhausted because you have to try and try and try. but nothing happens. what should i do now? does it change anything if i am asking the same question every day? will i get an answer this way? i expect an answer. and i dont think that something will change. the escrows will get away with it and the so called devs too.
Welcome to bitcointalk. Here you mostly never get answers and you'll ignored 90% of the time. It may seem sad, but that's how things here.

People abuse bounties for a living.

^How to make a scam accusation topic into Meta topic.

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August 31, 2018, 03:18:00 PM
 #209

i dont care about the money
Yes you do, you wouldn't be here if you don't  Roll Eyes
telegram is full of messages that you get XX.XX$ and that this is more than you have invested. But in BTC you lost 55%.
Can you clarify this?
For example, if you invested 1BTC you should get 1BTC refund and forked coins. What is this $ nonsense?

Can you say, if it is not secret, how many bitcoins you had invested and how many bitcoins you will receive back?


yes i can clarify this.
if you invested 1 BTC in ICO you paid about 2500$. Nor you get back 0.45 btc in this is 7000*0.45 = 3150$.

and it is not a secret. I only invested 0.1 BTC. maybe thats why I dont care about the money in this case.
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September 01, 2018, 04:55:38 AM
 #210

It appears as if the escrow agents are going to refund about 1400 btc to investors. The problem with this is that there is a lower band of 600BTC missing from this amount. All of the escrow agents have refused to address any concerns that anyone has brought up, even after acknowledging being aware of said concerns. Further none of the escrow agents are providing even a basic accounting of the funds.

Based on the above, it appears the escrow agents are engaging in a similar scam that TF likely pulled in regards to inputs.io, meaning refunding a majority of funds held, while keeping substantial amounts for themselves to which they are not entitled to.

I am curious to know if theymos is okay with someone with such a large amount of money in dispute being not only directly on his trust list, but on DT1.

I would encourage everyone reading this thread to make the following changes to their trust list:
Code:
~Blazed
~lauda
~minerjones
I would encourage everyone who cares about the situation to engage in the above quoted thread.
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September 01, 2018, 09:24:43 AM
Last edit: September 01, 2018, 09:51:19 AM by WaffleMaster
 #211


and now this on telegram "Ton" wrote:
Quote
escrows are trying to process it fast but we have an important problem
the domain NVO.io needs be under the control of escrows while they are processing the refund. It's under imed boudali's ownership right now
we need to file a complaint to the registrar to take it down so it can't be abused while the refund is processed and everyone is updated through 1 channel
some people still check the website for updates and they may not know this is going on. It's seriously problematic.
If people don't know about the current situation they will come back thinking they received random BTC out of nowhere, NVST can still be traded and come back to see another crowdsale being done through the NVO.io website fraudulently.
This is a security risk we cannot overlook. We need the domain back to make sure NVST can't be traded after the refund and everyone is updated regarding the situation


I'm not sure why the "CEO" would be saying they NEED the domain to do anything... because he's worried it 'may' be used as a scam?
I can understand why he would WANT to make sure that the website can't have some blinking message of a new fake ICO or whatever under the website's brand, but you don't NEED that and the refund shouldn't be contingent upon that.


"This is a security risk we cannot overlook" doesn't give the registrar or the person making the complaint the right to take down and seize a website from its "legal" owner because somebody MIGHT do something... what kind of weird and twisted thought crime conspiracy shit is that? Because somebody might decide to break the law in the future with an asset they control?  Huh  Huh

If the refund is delayed significantly, or indefinitely, by this claim, my suspicion grows even stronger that they can't provide blockchain evidence of funds and transactions to process the 'refund' which has been agreed to.

Is this a refund, or them buying back the coins??? Because it's weird that they don't want the coin to be tradable at all anymore after this, right? Is it a give us the coins and you get your refund type of situation? That seems more like a buy back in technical terms. Then again, double dipping after getting a refund by dumping the coin also seems like an immoral and unethical way to lead the situation. Also, I'm not sure if returning like 40-60% of the original investment asset (Bitcoin) is legal simply because it is worth more in dollars. If somebody takes 2,000 Bitcoin, uses 1,400 of it, then says oops my bad and returns 600 Bitcoin that has a dollar value the same as the original asset years ago, does that make it right? Or did you just lose 1,400 Bitcoin of opportunity cost that is easily proven and documented, that you would then be entitled to? What kind of contracts or writing/Terms of Service were used throughout this? Perhaps the contract has already been fulfilled and nobody is really obligated to do anything? I'd need the contracts to make heads or tales of what was agreed to. Not like any of that really matters because this is likely an unregistered security and therefor immediately illegal regardless. There's like over 10 million dollars on the line as we speak, not even counting what the dollar amount was at the peaks. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if this shit blows up GAW style. If anybody involved on either side of this thinks they can be a slick little grease ball and slide out of this situation and it will all just disappear with time you might want to ask our homeboy Homero how that's going for him Grin

I truly believe this is the next big scandal to send shockwaves through the industry.
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September 01, 2018, 09:54:40 AM
 #212

If the refund is delayed significantly, or indefinitely, by this claim, my suspicion grows even stronger that they can't provide blockchain evidence of funds and transactions to process the 'refund' which has been agreed to.
You need to stop reading the posts from Vlom. He has failed his own due diligence to the point where he thinks the statements of the CEO regarding the duties of escrows, rather than the statements from the escrows themselves (4), are 'de facto' what will happen. The refund is not being delayed at all.

Also, I'm not sure if returning like 40-60% of the original investment asset (Bitcoin) is legal simply because it is worth more in dollars.
The dollar value is irrelevant. The release milestones were in place; without them I doubt that there would have been any funds left given the *dispute* that went down in Algeria.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if this shit blows up GAW style.
No. Things are going to according to the milestones. As I've said earlier, as far as failed/cancelled/bad ICOs go, this isn't nowhere as bad as it could have gotten. The fallout hasn't been handled as well as it could have been, but that is not in my power.

If anybody involved on either side of this thinks they can be a slick little grease ball and slide out of this situation and it will all just disappear with time you might want to ask our homeboy Homero how that's going for him Grin
Apples and oranges.

I truly believe this is the next big scandal to send shockwaves through the industry.
This is no scandal of any kind[1]. Do you know of any project on this scale that (partially) refunded their investors?

[1] Well, some trolls did jump at getting media to use "exit scam" wording which just shows their own lack of research.

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September 01, 2018, 10:19:08 AM
 #213


You need to stop reading the posts from Vlom. He has failed his own due diligence to the point where he thinks the statements of the CEO regarding the duties of escrows, rather than the statements from the escrows themselves (4), are 'de facto' what will happen. The refund is not being delayed at all.

I'm just reading what they quoted the CEO said on a public channel, which seemed to suggest and include the thoughts of escrows as well about a barrier for continued processing of the situation and refund. The CEO could indeed be misinformed and/or misspeaking for escrows. What he said is still relevant and perhaps the escrows won't agree with him, although he seems to be an important person in this matter and directly speaking on the behalf of some team, whether it is including the escrows or not. I'm not very concerned with the partial refund, rather how much money was used and taken away from the funds and why.
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September 01, 2018, 10:23:04 AM
 #214

The CEO could indeed be misinformed and/or misspeaking for escrows. What he said is still relevant and perhaps the escrows won't agree with him, although he seems to be an important person in this matter and directly speaking on the behalf of some team, whether it is including the escrows or not.
He does not speak for the escrows; he speaks for himself and the people working with/for him.

I'm not very concerned with the partial refund, rather how much money was used and taken away from the refund and why.
Then we are of no use to you in that regard. How exactly the released money was spent is way beyond escrow capabilities and I doubt they would provide 'sufficient' proof for it anyway (where sufficient is debatable depending on the reviewer; most of the things that a person can provide I don't deem sufficient as e.g. no cryptography is involved).

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September 01, 2018, 11:35:50 PM
 #215

I have read through all 11 pages of this thread. There aren't many questions that haven't been asked and answered, but there definitely seems to be some miscommunication. I can understand not wanting to make an attempt at signing the multisig address for fear of compromising the seed/funds. I can also understand not doing a public audit out of consideration for those that wish to remain anonymous. Innocent until proven guilty should be paramount, and in this moment I have not seen any accusations hold their weight through evidence. In my personal, limited, opinion the negative feedback as a result of this thread is unnecessary, at least as of now. It seems like the NVO situation is moving forward, with a vote and there has been no failure to communicate through official channels or hold to the obligations of the escrow terms. You may disagree with the escrow terms or would personally do things differently, but to attribute malicious intentions may be a mistake.

It would seem reasonable to produce the dates and rates that the alts were exchanged and added to the BTC pool (unless this has already been done, and I missed it). From what I understand the value of the alts has been added to the BTC pool and will be included with the refund, if that's the direction the vote goes.

Are there any investors that have used the official channels of communication and not received an appropriate response?
This thread is 11 pages and it could easily have fit onto 1 without all the smoke and mirrors, but tensions run high with this much coin floating around and that is understandable.

Is there in fact 10+ BTC Missing?
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September 02, 2018, 01:52:50 AM
 #216

I have read through all 11 pages of this thread. There aren't many questions that haven't been asked and answered,
What question has been answered? Can you point to the posts in which actual information was given in an answered question?
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September 02, 2018, 02:37:26 AM
 #217

It might be more productive if you just read through the thread (again), or present the questions you feel remain unanswered.

This is a scam accusation thread, where no evidence was presented and it resulted in multiple users sending/receiving negative feedback. The focus should primarily be pointing towards evidence-based claims, not summarizing the thread in front of us. This has been a poor example of how a scam-accusation thread should carry itself.

Again, I don't have a dog in this fight, but I see questions and accusations being answered. There could be more transparency, people have the right to keep track of their funds, but I don't see which terms are being violated and the change of escrow terms was not applicable to the NVO escrow (implying that the forks will be included in the BTC total). A distinct lack of evidence is troubling.
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September 02, 2018, 06:45:54 AM
 #218

A distinct lack of evidence is troubling.
Right, this thread is how old, a month? No concrete evidence either way. Just some investors pissed about the lack of transparency and just a CEO claiming to be talking for escrows and the project in general saying there will be a hold up over the domain being in control from somebody he doesn't like that may or may not do something illegal with it. There's most likely a ton going on behind the scenes we don't know about.

How this all shakes out with the refund and accounting is where the real fireworks will spark. There can only be one number they use to issue the refund and the refund depends on how many coins you have (that you probably have to send back to them). That final number is the only evidence we need, and they can try and justify it with all their might, but without blockchain transaction proof, none of it will matter. I think we can all agree that is a big strength of blockchain.

How long is it reasonable to wait? Another month? Another two months?

When does it become unreasonable?

These questions are better answered by everybody in general and not just one person or some biased group of people. Personally I still think they're within a reasonable time frame and won't need to provide transaction details or signed messages.
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September 02, 2018, 08:06:17 AM
 #219

How long is it reasonable to wait? Another month? Another two months?
The refund has already been finished. Lips sealed

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September 02, 2018, 08:36:40 AM
 #220

How long is it reasonable to wait? Another month? Another two months?
The refund has already been finished. Lips sealed
Oh shit lol! Any thread or Telegram documentation on that?
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