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Author Topic: Lauda, MinerJones, Blazed | Missing escrow funds  (Read 25841 times)
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August 14, 2018, 05:14:32 PM
Last edit: August 14, 2018, 11:47:41 PM by wtf_is_going_on
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 #1

The accused:
Lauda

And, secondarily, MinerJones and Blazed, although their involvement is unclear, and the accusation against them may be more along the lines of "why aren't you doing anything about Lauda?"

The accusation:
Despite being hired as fiduciaries, the escrows are acting in their own best interests during a dispute, have taken escrowed money for themselves, and refuse all calls for accountability and transparency. A significant amount of money is missing from the officially stated escrow balances, which do not reconcile with the initial deposits and authorized distributions, and there has no accounting for those missing funds. Lauda has unilaterally changed the terms of the escrow fees from 2% to 10% to her own benefit and to the detriment of investors.

Amount in question:
Between 300-900 BTC of the ~3050 BTC collected2,6 into the escrow accounts are unaccounted for as of this post's timestamp.

Background:
There is currently a dispute between the founders of the NVO DEX project that started last year. The NVO project thread is here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1917456.0

The escrows for the NVO crowdsale were and continue to be1:
Lauda, MinerJones, and Blazed

The specifics of the dispute between the founders is immaterial to the actions of the escrows. It's sufficient to say that the project looks nothing like what was promised in the crowdsale, and a supermajority of token holders, as well as both remaining founders, have asked for the refund process to begin.

The dispute has resulted in two major factions, one following the former CEO, and the other following the former CTO. There is another significant faction that follows neither, which is, from a practical standpoint, unanimous in calling for a refund.

Even with the near unanimous calls for a refund, escrows have decided on taking a weighted vote to determine their next action, although the stated terms and options of the vote are continually changing.

The former CEO controls the original official Slack channel, a secondary Slack channel that was created in an unsuccessful attempt to assert control of the community before it could split, the original Subreddit (https://reddit.com/r/NVO), and a Telegram channel (https://t.me/joinchat/AAAAAEaDtGZfFucHogPU8w). All former CEO-controlled channels are heavily censored. Most activity happens in Telegram, where questions that don't make the former CEO look good are deleted immediately, and the poster is kicked from the channel.

The former CTO has stated a desire not to manipulate any voting and refuses to contol any specific channel. His supporters, among others, are using a Discord channel (https://discord.gg/UxAhxA6) to freely discuss what happens in the channels controlled by the former CEO. Many posters who are kicked from the former CEO's channels end up in the Discord, which is not heavily censored.

Additional claims and supporting statements:
Lauda is the only escrow talking at all, and she's really only in one place, the Telegram channel controlled by the former CEO. She refuses transparency in the refund process, citing a simple unwillingness to cooperate.

Escrow distribution
  • Background:
    • As per the terms of the crowdsale, four milestones were set1. At the first three milestones, 30% of the collected funds were to be split 50/50 between the former CEO and the former CTO, at a rate of 15% each. At the last milestone, the remaining 10% would be split 50/50 at a rate of 5% to each party.
    • The first milestone was automatically met at the close of the crowdsale. The former CEO received 15% of the escrowed funds, and the former CTO declined his own distribution on an immediate basis.3
    • The second milestone was met as observed and agreed to by the escrows, and another 15% was distributed to the former CEO. The former CTO again declined his own distribution.3
    • The project founders then became estranged, and so far additional undisputed claims about the escrow arrangement have been made by the former CTO.
  • The current claims about escrow fuckery which have so far gone undisputed:
    • The original terms of the escrow was 2% of the collected funds, amounting to 60 BTC to be retained by the escrows for their services. Lauda has since unilaterally declared the escrow fee to be 10%, removing up to 300 BTC from the refund pool for her own gain.
    • The undistributed 30% that was supposed to go to the former CTO was retained by the escrows, and is not included in the refund pool
    • The escrows placed escrowed funds into a Bittrex account owned by the former CTO of the project, for the purposes of speculative trading with escrowed funds. Everyone is now locked out of that account because the escrows changed the Bittrex account password and cannot recover it.
    • In coordination with the former CEO, Lauda has decided on a "buyback" scheme, which ensures not all investors will be refunded. Instead of issuing an airdrop of BTC to all token holders, her plan is to require positive action from all token holders in order for them to receive a refund, with no indication as to what will happen to any unclaimed funds. Based on the coordination between herself and the former CEO, it is unclear if Lauda and the others will retain the unclaimed funds for themselves, send them to the former CEO, or if a portion of the unclaimed funds will eventually be distributed to the former CEO in exchange for his support of this scheme while they retain the rest.

Coordination with one side of the dispute, "picking sides" with project management
As with any escrow service, Lauda and her team are responsible for acting impartially and fairly at all times, and in the case of a fundraising dispute, they must act in the best interest of investors at all times. When the dispute between the founders first came to light, Lauda correctly froze all funds available to her, but has since coordinated with the former CEO to concoct the voting scheme, and to decide on the terms of a vote, which at one time included an option to only refund money to accounts that know about the conflict, despite clear communication only taking place with the token holders who are present in a CEO-controlled communications channel.

Missing funds
Several coin forks, including the BCH fork, happened while funds were in escrow. The escrows pocketed that money and are not adding those funds to the refund pool.5 A fiduciary is not entitled to take client funds that are under their control.

Out of 3,055 BTC raised at the crowdsale2, only about 30% has been distributed.3 An exact number is not available, as the escrows refuse to provide it. 560-600 BTC was distributed to the former CEO, and 75-100 BTC was distributed to the former CTO, so conservatively there should still be ~2300 BTC in escrow, not accounting for altcoin depreciation. The publicly stated refundable balance is ~1400 BTC.4 There is no accounting for the discrepancy, so until such time as a full accounting can take place, the funds can only be assumed to be missing.

Additional items
Lauda has publicly stated in the Telegram "hire an accountant if you want to audit me", followed by a statement that she would refuse to cooperate with such an audit if one were to take place.

Lauda has stated the escrow fees are now 10% of the total amount raised, which is, perhaps not coincidentally, almost the same amount as what is unaccounted for. It is unclear if she is acting alone on this change or if she is acting with the cooperation of the former CEO.

This isn't just a dispute about an escrow service. This is a breach of fiduciary duty. In many reasonably legislated jurisdictions, and most certainly in most unreasonably legislated ones, conviction of this type of activity would mean the fat portion of a decade in prison, if not considerably more due to the amount of money in question.

Note: this post will be updated to reflect any changes of fact, such as any possible future release of a 3rd party audit, if and when those changes become known. It will also be updated with specific evidence, such as links to posts, as they are obtained. If you have specific screenshots or links to posts that either prove or disprove any portion of this post, please reply below.

Footnotes
1. See the first post of the NVO project thread
2. Official crowdsale amount raised
3. 30% distribution claim by Ton, former CEO
4. 1400 BTC remaining in escrow questioned by Ton, former CEO
5. Lauda's policy on taking custodial funds. First post, under "policies"
6. Original deposit address 354jirex7gkFxMiNmN45SxyMxSUsdGcrsf, see first post in NVO thread
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August 14, 2018, 07:39:17 PM
 #2

I archived the Bitcointalk footnotes for you so no changes will be made.

Footnotes:

1. http://archive.is/nWFY7
2. http://archive.is/2MIGT


5. http://archive.is/c4Q0c

Good luck with your thread. Usually Lauda gets away with all scams.
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August 14, 2018, 08:18:17 PM
 #3

What is the multisig address that the escrow funds were being held in?  It should be public, and each withdrawal should be able to be accounted for and described by Lauda as well as the 2nd signer for the multisig wallet.  These are pretty basic requirements for an escrow and the blockchain exists as a public record to check/balance what these individuals are claiming.  There should be no room for questioning, especially when this amount of funds are involved.


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August 14, 2018, 08:30:49 PM
Merited by bill gator (1)
 #4

Sounds quite serious except some details appear to be speculative / opinion based. Would be nice to have it separated from facts, and to have proof to support the facts - such as TX IDs etc.

How did the funds end up on Bittrex?

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August 14, 2018, 08:53:56 PM
Last edit: August 14, 2018, 09:27:55 PM by Lauda
 #5

Quickly skimming through this nonsense, none of these claims appear to be true especially not the "10% escrow fee" as "allegedly claimed by me".

Which is just the classic nonsense from self-entitled idiots.
I'm going to assume mr. Ben and NYR (and/or co.) are behind this thread. Surprise, surprise. Roll Eyes

This isn't just a dispute about an escrow service. This is a breach of fiduciary duty. In many reasonably legislated jurisdictions, and most certainly in most unreasonably legislated ones, conviction of this type of activity would mean the fat portion of a decade in prison, if not considerably more due to the amount of money in question.
There is no breach of any fictional duty.

Lauda has stated the escrow fees are now 10% of the total amount raised, which is, perhaps not coincidentally, almost the same amount as what is unaccounted for.
Once a liar always a liar. Roll Eyes

How long is the obligatory wait time until I'm allowed to tag the OP for creating a thread full of lies?

Sounds quite serious except some details appear to be speculative / opinion based. Would be nice to have it separated from facts, and to have proof to support the facts - such as TX IDs etc.
There are next to zero facts in here. We haven't even settled on the method for refunding (been brainstorming for the past week with input from various people), and yet OP makes claims that I plan on embezzling money via the chosen refund scheme (maybe even with the CEO - see 'additional items'). This is just some idiot that I pissed off in the TG channel before I left after a time-wasteful barrage of insinuations. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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August 14, 2018, 09:56:18 PM
 #6

Funny that I logged onto the the NVO.io page today asn saw nothing has changed.  First time I looked in 6 months and then I remembered this was escrowed with cpaital releases upon milestones.  Since it appears project is dead I searched for the project and found this thread.  So, it appears there will be a refund.  Glad to hear it!  Where do I sign up?  And what happens with the Bitocin Cash that was forked in August last year.  I assume those will be refunded as well.
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August 14, 2018, 09:56:56 PM
 #7

So, it appears there will be a refund.  Glad to hear it!  Where do I sign up?
You don't need to sign up; all you need to do is hold NVST.

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August 14, 2018, 09:57:43 PM
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 #8

Sounds like Laudas exit scam to me

Why do you refuse an audit?

Why do you 3 all talk about how great multi signature is and than not use it

If you support btc like you say you do. You put it all on an exchange instead of cold storage multi signature? Pretty fucking dumb
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August 14, 2018, 09:59:59 PM
 #9

What precentage of funds was distributed to project?  What about the Bitcoin Cash? 
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August 14, 2018, 10:01:03 PM
 #10

Sounds like Laudas exit scam to me
We are literally moving forward with a vote/refund; how is that an 'exit scam'? Sounds like you're an idiot.  Roll Eyes

Why do you refuse an audit?
Audit has been done; the disgruntled parties have received the information that they are entitled to.

Why do you 3 all talk about how great multi signature is and than not use it
It's used.

If you support btc like you say you do. You put it all on an exchange instead of cold storage multi signature? Pretty fucking dumb
I'm moving from 'sounds like' to just 'you're an idiot'.

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August 14, 2018, 10:05:41 PM
 #11

Sounds like Laudas exit scam to me
We are literally moving forward with a vote/refund; how is that an 'exit scam'? Sounds like you're an idiot.  Roll Eyes

Why do you refuse an audit?
Audit has been done; the disgruntled parties have received the information that they are entitled to.

Why do you 3 all talk about how great multi signature is and than not use it
It's used.

If you support btc like you say you do. You put it all on an exchange instead of cold storage multi signature? Pretty fucking dumb
I'm moving from 'sounds like' to just 'you're an idiot'.

Why isn't the escrow address public?

If an audit was done 300-900 btc wouldn't be missing

How was a multi sig used?
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August 14, 2018, 10:07:29 PM
 #12

If an audit was done 300-900 btc wouldn't be missing
Nothing is missing.

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August 14, 2018, 10:11:35 PM
 #13

Lauda, Where can I see the accounting for the project?  Or can you post a copy of the accounting here?
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August 14, 2018, 10:14:46 PM
 #14

Lauda, Where can I see the accounting for the project?  Or can you post a copy of the accounting here?
Not an accountant. Ask someone from the project to provide it (if they have it).

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August 14, 2018, 10:22:45 PM
 #15

Lauda, Where can I see the accounting for the project?  Or can you post a copy of the accounting here?
Not an accountant. Ask someone from the project to provide it (if they have it).

I am not asking for a complete accounting from them.  I just want to know how much was distributed by you.  Surely this is an easy question for you to answer since you control the BTC funds.  Also, I assume the forks of Bitcoin Cash will be distributed back to members.
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August 14, 2018, 10:24:47 PM
 #16

I just want to know how much was distributed by you.  Surely this is an easy question for you to answer since you control the BTC funds.
That's an entirely different question from 'seeing the accounting'. Follow the first address or wait for me to wake up again; whichever is easier for you.

Also, I assume the forks of Bitcoin Cash will be distributed back to members.
No. Everything will be sent in BTC.

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August 14, 2018, 10:32:25 PM
 #17

I just want to know how much was distributed by you.  Surely this is an easy question for you to answer since you control the BTC funds.
That's an entirely different question from 'seeing the accounting'. Follow the first address or wait for me to wake up again; whichever is easier for you.



Also, I assume the forks of Bitcoin Cash will be distributed back to members.
No. Everything will be sent in BTC.

If you could kindly post the amount when you have a moment I would apprecite it.  Thank you.
So the Bitcoin Cash was converted to BTC?  When was that done?
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August 14, 2018, 11:58:26 PM
 #18

If an audit was done 300-900 btc wouldn't be missing
Nothing is missing.

If nothing is missing why cant you publicly prove that?
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August 15, 2018, 12:11:46 AM
 #19

What is the multisig address that the escrow funds were being held in?  It should be public, and each withdrawal should be able to be accounted for and described by Lauda as well as the 2nd signer for the multisig wallet.  These are pretty basic requirements for an escrow and the blockchain exists as a public record to check/balance what these individuals are claiming.  There should be no room for questioning, especially when this amount of funds are involved.

Exactly. I haven't had the time too look too deep into it, but I invested Bitcoins because I trusted the escrows. The Bitcoin address was multisig. I do hope to see more transparency at some point but I know there's a lot of personal mudslinging going on so who knows when we'll get the full story.
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August 15, 2018, 12:17:39 AM
 #20

People think the 1400 BTC in Escrow are not high enough and that lauda stole from the altcoin funds,
But they simply dont wanna do math thats all so i help a bit.

At first i wanna write that these numbers arent 100% accurate becaus i doesnt exactly know how many altcoins really got converted at start its just an estimate with this in mind.
This calculation shows how much Altcoins lost in value compared back than with the value now Left the value in btc when we invested right side the value now.

in BTC

LTC: 131.806919857 now 70.544134084
XRP: 143.421843806 now 59.4388254915
ETH: 792.971309565 now 298.760281758
MAID:149.88903042 now 29.1265901
DASH:136.835085363 now 44.8986655922
WAVES:52.1873061717 now 10.1257557693
DOGE: 25.6991926573 now 8.7235791589
ETC: 31.3899723712 now 8.2679004029

Total: 1464.20066 now 529.885732357

btw. 529btc + 1590(direct BTC Invest) =2119 btc
around 600 btc to tonbi so we are at 1519 btc
75 btc to nemgun we are at 1445 btc
minus the fees for the escrow around 1400 btc
looks completly normal to me..


I repeat the numbers are not 100% precise becaus i dont know the exact number ton got or nemgun or how much fees its just an estimate to show everyone that 1400btc isnt far of.
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August 15, 2018, 12:39:28 AM
 #21

People think the 1400 BTC in Escrow are not high enough and that lauda stole from the altcoin funds,
But they simply dont wanna do math thats all so i help a bit.

At first i wanna write that these numbers arent 100% accurate becaus i doesnt exactly know how many altcoins really got converted at start its just an estimate with this in mind.
This calculation shows how much Altcoins lost in value compared back than with the value now Left the value in btc when we invested right side the value now.

in BTC

LTC: 131.806919857 now 70.544134084
XRP: 143.421843806 now 59.4388254915
ETH: 792.971309565 now 298.760281758
MAID:149.88903042 now 29.1265901
DASH:136.835085363 now 44.8986655922
WAVES:52.1873061717 now 10.1257557693
DOGE: 25.6991926573 now 8.7235791589
ETC: 31.3899723712 now 8.2679004029

Total: 1464.20066 now 529.885732357

btw. 529btc + 1590(direct BTC Invest) =2119 btc
around 600 btc to tonbi so we are at 1519 btc
75 btc to nemgun we are at 1445 btc
minus the fees for the escrow around 1400 btc
looks completly normal to me..


I repeat the numbers are not 100% precise becaus i dont know the exact number ton got or nemgun or how much fees its just an estimate to show everyone that 1400btc isnt far of.

All the alt coins were converted to BTC last year after the ICO...total investment was 3055 BTC per a post from Lauda.
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August 15, 2018, 12:47:11 AM
 #22

Please excuse my severe, untreated attention deficit--I did not read the details of this thing, but I want to ask if it was ever made clear what the fate of the bitcoin cash was going to be.  I'm not taking any sides on this one because I don't have enough info yet (though I'm reading these arguments from both sides), but my understanding is that it's controversial at best whether the forked coins stay with the sender or the receiver of the actual bitcoin, unless this was made clear at the beginning.

There was some controversy about this before, IIRC, and I remember aTriz had kept all the bitcoin cash in a campaign that he was running at the time the fork happened, again, if I recall correctly.  I think I remember that happening and that someone made a stink about it, but I believe that either aTriz or the project developer kept the bch and either way that the campaign participants did not receive the bch. 

You could argue that if the terms state that you get XBTC for your participation, that shouldn't include the forked coin.  I get that.  I'm curious as to what the consensus is about this; what Lauda thinks; what other members think; and if it was mentioned in the terms of this thing.  I don't think it's way off-topic.

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August 15, 2018, 01:02:15 AM
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 #23


All the alt coins were converted to BTC last year after the ICO...total investment was 3055 BTC per a post from Lauda.
Nope not true , they did not got converted last year.
The Post from Lauda back than was only the conversion rates so everybody could calculate how much nvst he will get it never states that they directly convert the alts to btc
and they didnt convert them.
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August 15, 2018, 01:19:35 AM
 #24


All the alt coins were converted to BTC last year after the ICO...total investment was 3055 BTC per a post from Lauda.
Nope not true , they did not got converted last year.
The Post from Lauda back than was only the conversion rates so everybody could calculate how much nvst he will get it never states that they directly convert the alts to btc
and they didnt convert them.

I think Lauda is the person to answer that question.  It should be fairly simple question to answer as well as how much is in all of the accounts.  Awaiting that answer.
 
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August 15, 2018, 01:49:23 AM
 #25

You could argue that if the terms state that you get XBTC for your participation, that shouldn't include the forked coin.  I get that.  I'm curious as to what the consensus is about this; what Lauda thinks; what other members think; and if it was mentioned in the terms of this thing.  I don't think it's way off-topic.

It wouldn't have made sense to claim the BCH at the time of the fork as it would have been a potential security risk to manipulate the private keys holding 1000+ BTC.

It wouldn't make sense for the escrow to keep (or ignore) the BCH after the refunds are issued and the escrow wallet is no longer used. The risk is no longer there and there is a substantial value in BCH and it certainly doesn't belong to the escrow. The escrow could charge a substantial fee for the trouble (and to avoid having to deal with dust forks) but the coins should be distributed.

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August 15, 2018, 07:02:55 AM
Last edit: August 15, 2018, 07:22:45 AM by Lauda
 #26

But they simply dont wanna do math thats all so i help a bit.
-snip-
Thanks. You did indeed help.

People think the 1400 BTC in Escrow are not high enough and that lauda stole from the altcoin funds,
Which is nonsensical because I never had access to the other altcoins (exc. used to have for DOGE; now locked on bittrex).

All the alt coins were converted to BTC last year after the ICO...total investment was 3055 BTC per a post from Lauda.
Which is nonsense that I have never said. Unfortunately, they were not all liquidated instantly (had they been, there would be more money to repay).

The Post from Lauda back than was only the conversion rates so everybody could calculate how much nvst he will get it never states that they directly convert the alts to btc
and they didnt convert them.
Here comes the merit party.

It wouldn't make sense for the escrow to keep (or ignore) the BCH after the refunds are issued and the escrow wallet is no longer used.
Disagreed, as I always have on the fork debate (especially in cases where ToS/policies covers this beforehand). Although discussing the principles of forking would be swaying away from this accusation. The real problem (documentation-wise) is the exchange account. This thread is just a joke, i.e. a distraction by some of the involved parties (in order to delay exchange access, vote, refund).

Even though the funds that are on it aren't significant in comparison (mostly part of what was last released to nemgun), they should be pooled back and having access restored would enable us to build a proper chain of events (with little to no vagueness). That said, nemgun keeps delaying this with various excuses. Today is the final day.

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August 15, 2018, 11:46:28 AM
 #27

Lauda,

Please answer:
How much was distributed?
How much is available to refund?   

Thank you.
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August 15, 2018, 12:25:18 PM
 #28

As far as the conversion of ALT coins to BTC, I see that the post NEVER stated that they were converted.

So, Lauda, Blazed and Miner Jones.  As the escrow agent of ALL coins, and in the interest of TRANSPARENCY, please answer the following:

How many of each coin are still in escrow?
Were any converted to another coin?, If so, when and how much was converted and the exchange rate.
How much was distributed and to whom (amounts, dates, and coin type)?
What kind of docummnetation did the founders provide to prove that each milestone was achieved that triggered a distribution?
Please provide addresses to verify this information.

As escrow agent you hold a fiduciary responsibility to the investors.  If you continue to not answer these questions that is considered a breach of your fiduciary responsibility.

Thank you.
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August 15, 2018, 03:35:00 PM
 #29

Please excuse my severe, untreated attention deficit--I did not read the details of this thing
I think u shud Please read the post Fuck-ur-sis-racist; before jumping in like a paw-licker...

Quote
but I want to ask if it was ever made clear what the fate of the bitcoin cash was going to be.
Even if it wasn't; no excuse for the escrows to claim it... I'm not saying they did...

Quote
There was some controversy about this before, IIRC, and I remember aTriz had kept all the bitcoin cash in a campaign
So now Lauda will be going the aTriz way; well I wouldn't be shocked... Way to go Lauda (Not saying s/he will)... But if aTriz did keep so much money; why the fuck ain't he paying snakey any soon and crying about it...

Quote
You could argue that if the terms state that you get XBTC for your participation, that shouldn't include the forked coin.  I get that.  I'm curious as to what the consensus is about this; what Lauda thinks; what other members think; and if it was mentioned in the terms of this thing.  I don't think it's way off-topic.
Finally talking sense... But looks like everyone conveniently ignored u...

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August 15, 2018, 04:15:50 PM
 #30

It wouldn't make sense for the escrow to keep (or ignore) the BCH after the refunds are issued and the escrow wallet is no longer used.
Disagreed, as I always have on the fork debate (especially in cases where ToS/policies covers this beforehand).

If you mean ideological (de)merits of bcash etc - that doesn't really matter. There is a significant value in those coins that was not foreseen (I'm assuming) at the time when the escrow took control of the funds and the client(s) want (I'm assuming) to get those coins.

If my assumptions are correct then the client(s) did not have a choice - e.g. to choose an escrow with a more favorable view towards forks - and there was no way to have a ToS reflecting that so the escrow should make a reasonable effort to accommodate the client(s). What would be the reason not to?

Although discussing the principles of forking would be swaying away from this accusation.

It's among the many accusations in the OP and one that seems to have some basis in fact. Other stuff would have to wait for:

Even though the funds that are on it aren't significant in comparison (mostly part of what was last released to nemgun), they should be pooled back and having access restored would enable us to build a proper chain of events (with little to no vagueness). That said, nemgun keeps delaying this with various excuses. Today is the final day.

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August 15, 2018, 04:17:28 PM
 #31

If an audit was done 300-900 btc wouldn't be missing
Nothing is missing.

If nothing is missing why cant you publicly prove that?

I understand how you feel cause it hurt deep like knife when ones invest in a project which is somehow died and yet to collect back the fund invested but you still need to calm either because the forum is watching and interfering into the situations. However, Madam Lauda said they are working on it.

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August 15, 2018, 05:31:57 PM
 #32

Lauda,

Please answer:
How much was distributed?
How much is available to refund?  

Thank you.
I will answer
How much was distributed?  All the funds that is 3000 BTC
How much is available to refund?    0

It really shocks me that Lauda is major scammer where he lied all that on aTriz accusations, and I believe we should file a case to the Crotian Police.

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August 15, 2018, 05:45:02 PM
 #33

What is the multisig address that the escrow funds were being held in?  It should be public, and each withdrawal should be able to be accounted for and described by Lauda as well as the 2nd signer for the multisig wallet.  These are pretty basic requirements for an escrow and the blockchain exists as a public record to check/balance what these individuals are claiming.  There should be no room for questioning, especially when this amount of funds are involved.

i would like to know this too. but until now Lauda refused to post this.

this is "endless" and i don't have the time to check all the transactions.....
Why exactly would you care where the money is going to or coming from as long as the amount (as per milestones) is there? You would waste your own time trying to trace it all, especially since altcoin addresses aren't public.

the wallet (354jirex7gkFxMiNmN45SxyMxSUsdGcrsf) in OP is empty.
3,091 btc
There was never 3091 BTC. This is why random individuals shouldn't try to do audits..

OK. not 3091 BTC. But BTC: 1590.919664 + Altcoins => Total BTC raised (at these exchange rates): 3055.120324

The time-stamp for the conversion rates is: 19:00 UTC - 28/06/2017.

The total funds raised per currency:
BTC: 1590.919664
LTC: 7807.588
XRP: 1325280.390
ETH: 6477.095
MAID: 765482
DASH: 1916.643
WAVES: 31145.630
DOGE: 23577240.970
ETC: 4126.090

Conversion rates per currency into BTC*:
BTC: 1
LTC: 0.01688190
XRP: 0.00010822
ETH: 0.12242700
MAID: 0.00019581
DASH: 0.07139310
WAVES: 0.00167559
DOGE: 0.00000109
ETC: 0.00760768

Total BTC raised (at these exchange rates): 3055.120324
Total USD raised at the BTC-USD price (Bitstamp): 7790556.826

This means that any price changes for you, as an investor, no longer matter. You can use these numbers to estimate the number of tokens that you will receive.
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August 15, 2018, 05:48:16 PM
 #34

Lauda,

Please answer:
How much was distributed?
How much is available to refund?  

Thank you.

I will answer
How much was distributed?  All the funds that is 3000 BTC
How much is available to refund?    0

Given the available information and claims, I think that is the only reasonable assumption at this time until proven otherwise.  I don't understand why the funds haven't been moved to a multisig address and a message signed proving their existence.  At this point, the lack of transparency appears to be willfully disobedient by the escrow agents claiming to be in control of these funds, and worthy of forfeiture of their escrow fees.


What is the multisig address that the escrow funds were being held in?
How did the funds end up on Bittrex?

I'm still waiting on answers for the first two questions in this thread.  This appears to be the old 'incompetent or scammer' situation.


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August 15, 2018, 05:50:28 PM
 #35

I just want to know how much was distributed by you.  Surely this is an easy question for you to answer since you control the BTC funds.
That's an entirely different question from 'seeing the accounting'. Follow the first address or wait for me to wake up again; whichever is easier for you.



Also, I assume the forks of Bitcoin Cash will be distributed back to members.
No. Everything will be sent in BTC.

If you could kindly post the amount when you have a moment I would apprecite it.  Thank you.
So the Bitcoin Cash was converted to BTC?  When was that done?

regarding the forks i "know" this:

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August 16, 2018, 06:22:05 AM
 #36



Even I don't keep track of alts I've sold... (Not saying someone did; just me )  Grin Grin

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August 16, 2018, 05:23:22 PM
 #37

What is the multisig address that the escrow funds were being held in?  It should be public, and each withdrawal should be able to be accounted for and described by Lauda as well as the 2nd signer for the multisig wallet.  These are pretty basic requirements for an escrow and the blockchain exists as a public record to check/balance what these individuals are claiming.  There should be no room for questioning, especially when this amount of funds are involved.

i would like to know this too. but until now Lauda refused to post this.
u will receive.

He will never answer correctly, in the past Lauda told that he don't belong to ALU services, now he seriously tell I don't own Escrow Services.

I havent seen Theymos  who never take care of these forums.

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August 16, 2018, 06:22:57 PM
 #38

He will never answer correctly, in the past Lauda told that he don't belong to ALU services, now he seriously tell I don't own Escrow Services.

I havent seen Theymos  who never take care of these forums.

Enough proofs have been provided in the past that Lauda scams or at least practises thing for which all normal users are tagged with negative trust. Unfortunately there are a bunch of high placed members who seem to profit from Lauda's scams and they keep backing him (making themselved fellow scammers).

I have asked Theymos for attention regarding this situation but got ignored. The only thing I read him post is that he was irritated about how DT trust was centralized. However he does not interfere. I also pointed out how this forum is not being ruled by clear principles but by patchwork here and there. I guess it'll be a money thing or otherwise a lack of philosophical insight. But the normal and honest users are being victimized on this forum by this principleless government with its olichargic bunch of scammers, led by Lauda.

I tell you; even when rock hard proof is provided in this thread that Lauda was scamming, other DT members will still refuse to stop supporting him. It happened before. That's why Theymos actually should interfere.
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August 17, 2018, 02:50:33 PM
 #39

I tell you; even when rock hard proof is provided in this thread that Lauda was scamming, other DT members will still refuse to stop supporting him. It happened before.

It happened here and happened before? Rock hard proof? Could you please gather and link sources for this? Thanks.

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August 17, 2018, 03:44:56 PM
 #40

It happened here and happened before? Rock hard proof? Could you please gather and link sources for this? Thanks.

Sure buddy. Here's an example I posted myself: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2829282.
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August 17, 2018, 03:52:19 PM
 #41

Sure buddy. Here's an example I posted myself: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2829282.
Looking back at that episode it does look weird, but people were doing strange things with merit in the very early days of the system.  People for whatever reason didn't think 50 merit grants were a big deal, and older, well-established members were getting huge amounts of merit regardless of how objectively good their posts were.  That cooled down eventually, but that just isn't how it was right when the merit system was created.

And I'd point out that Lauda has since left aTriz a negative.  That sort of wipes out the usefulness of that merit Lauda left.

By the way I'm not Lauda, regardless of what Quickseller may tell you.  It hasn't gone unnoticed that QS hasn't made that claim lately.  In fact he seems to have stopped making it once there was some money to be lost on a bet that he could produce proof.

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August 17, 2018, 05:14:58 PM
 #42

I tell you; even when rock hard proof is provided in this thread that Lauda was scamming, other DT members will still refuse to stop supporting him. It happened before.

It happened here and happened before? Rock hard proof? Could you please gather and link sources for this? Thanks.

I can tell one thing about this Lauda, the person behind this profile has been accused way to many time on this forum. So many times that it is impossible for him/her to deny not being an honest individual. If there was some kind of reward here on the forum for such individuals (like jail in the outside world for criminals), Lauda would definitely be the winner...
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August 17, 2018, 05:54:21 PM
 #43

I tell you; even when rock hard proof is provided in this thread that Lauda was scamming, other DT members will still refuse to stop supporting him. It happened before.

It happened here and happened before? Rock hard proof? Could you please gather and link sources for this? Thanks.

I can tell one thing about this Lauda, the person behind this profile has been accused way to many time on this forum. So many times that it is impossible for him/her to deny not being an honest individual. If there was some kind of reward here on the forum for such individuals (like jail in the outside world for criminals), Lauda would definitely be the winner...

Accused mainly by (1) people red-tagged by Lauda, and (2) Quicksy's gang of alts.

BTW in the "outside world" people generally don't go to jail on mere accusations, at least that's not how it's supposed to work. And this forum already has a "reward" system in the form of trust ratings.

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August 17, 2018, 06:52:16 PM
 #44

It happened here and happened before? Rock hard proof? Could you please gather and link sources for this? Thanks.

Sure buddy. Here's an example I posted myself: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2829282.

This is at best some merit system misuse. Can you show some proof of scamming, or even link to evidence supporting such claims?

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August 17, 2018, 08:06:45 PM
 #45

I tell you; even when rock hard proof is provided in this thread that Lauda was scamming, other DT members will still refuse to stop supporting him. It happened before.
It happened here and happened before? Rock hard proof? Could you please gather and link sources for this? Thanks.
Sure buddy. Here's an example I posted myself: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2829282.
This is at best some merit system misuse. Can you show some proof of scamming, or even link to evidence supporting such claims?

Not all scams are direct monetary scams. Of course my example can be called also 'merit system misuse'. But the fact that all other cases of merit misuse are punished by DT members with red trust, but not that of Lauda, justifies my estimation that DT members will not stop supporting Lauda when financial scams are proven.

Simply read how The Pharmacist above tries to justify Lauda's merit misuse. Do you think he would use the same arguments for any random other member? No way; he would tag that member immediately negative. Which also shows that the trust system is abused by DT members, lead by the biggest trust abuser; Lauda. And he gets away with all that abuse because a certain group around him will defend him no matter what he will do, even when he will conduct a monetary scam.
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August 17, 2018, 08:30:43 PM
 #46

Do you think he would use the same arguments for any random other member? No way; he would tag that member immediately negative.
I was talking about the behavior in January.  I never tagged anyone for giving huge merit awards in January.  I rarely tag anyone for merit abuse, only the worst and most obvious cases of it.  Check the feedback I left and tell me when the first time I left a neg for merit abuse was.  Early on it was a weird new system and we were all getting used to it.

Either way I realize there's no way I'm going to convince you of anything, nor is there a point to arguing with you.  You can believe what you want.

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August 17, 2018, 09:40:18 PM
 #47

I rarely tag anyone for merit abuse,

Right. 'Only' 63 merit abusers were tagged by you.  Roll Eyes




Some random shots:










Quote
Either way I realize there's no way I'm going to convince you of anything, nor is there a point to arguing with you.  You can believe what you want.

Indeed; with such figures opposing your talk you are not going to convince me, nor anyone else outside the group of Lauda defenders.
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August 18, 2018, 05:49:07 AM
Last edit: August 18, 2018, 06:18:50 AM by allahabadi
 #48

Accused mainly by (1) people red-tagged by Lauda, and (2) Quicksy's gang of alts.
I'm neither and I accuse Lauda of not doing proper DD and letting a scammer like aTriz run amok on this forum using her/his credentials and trust.

Quote
BTW in the "outside world" people generally don't go to jail on mere accusations, at least that's not how it's supposed to work. And this forum already has a "reward" system in the form of trust ratings.
Trust and Merit ratings are not a reward system for anything. It is just a parameter of agreeability and likeability.




P.S. @Deena although I don't agree with quite a few things u have said; I'd suggest that there is no use barking at the dogs of paw-licking coterie...

P.P.S. Especially a sister-fucker operating a pharma... He's simple saddened that his sister died of his fucking and comes here to vent his sexual frustration...



EDIT :

back to topic please. then still no answers.


What is the multisig address that the escrow funds were being held in?
How did the funds end up on Bittrex?



@vlom You are such a positive person.

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August 18, 2018, 05:59:24 AM
 #49

back to topic please. then still no answers.


What is the multisig address that the escrow funds were being held in?
How did the funds end up on Bittrex?

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August 18, 2018, 09:15:01 AM
 #50

back to topic please. then still no answers.


What is the multisig address that the escrow funds were being held in?
How did the funds end up on Bittrex?



well, then. no answer => no multisig address that the escrow funds are in.
the address provided in the ANN is "empty".


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Hello.

I am one of the escrows for the NVO-ICO. The 2-of-3 multi-signature address for this project will be:
3AiGej11G8jUXvEBPvQKPLiHXC7ruUCp1Z

Lauda,
17/05/2017
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2

iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZHJdIAAoJEPTjrTxS+ZrbuQcH/ia4aFdQQe9+p6EnuuYed7gY
eubk16Pkzx21l8JcljJYadIDYW51TI76IukSFwYmoLfG3HoRTexwD02ZYa0bA4oO
cm4kaikbf3U9CU32uJ6jklthpc8HbrLs2H+BJMrcA/1dofQKhXntDHUqPQFuTqlR
JitQ3uzLlJ1OFyiRXOpO5kvSD1lGLUS2rXugULZrXZExT0xcA39j+du9QfdC/26N
lFl9y/HA+XSRgf618dSPmxpv6JtORtERvS4kklZvVFIjIxuNy/+kwE2t1qO1Xz1Q
x2UBkbGATrw3MYPbck5TLdcbLNOdX3321r2K8YY7K2CKNCe4zbP0td+gKTPQLEc=
=n++w
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Multi-Sig BTC escrow address for the NVO crowdsale:
354jirex7gkFxMiNmN45SxyMxSUsdGcrsf
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August 18, 2018, 09:24:35 AM
 #51

Accused mainly by (1) people red-tagged by Lauda, and (2) Quicksy's gang of alts.
Thus why it is a time-wasteful and pointless venture to try discussing baseless accusations against me publicly. If you need any clarification PM me or optimally contact me on Telegram.

well, then. no answer => no multisig address that the escrow funds are in.
The investors are getting answers in appropriate communication channels which are not troll-infested such as this one. Tl;dr: Nothing is missing; the escrows (including coinpayments, who apparently nobody is going after because their name isn't Lauda) have done their job accordingly; there are more funds than what the milestones require.

the address provided in the ANN is "empty".
You don't say Sherlock?

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August 18, 2018, 01:37:36 PM
Merited by vlom (1)
 #52

The investors are getting answers in appropriate communication channels which are not troll-infested such as this one. Tl;dr: Nothing is missing; the escrows (including coinpayments, who apparently nobody is going after because their name isn't Lauda) have done their job accordingly; there are more funds than what the milestones require.

Sign an address with the funds. It is that simple. Failure to do so can only be described as you being incompetent, a liar, or a scammer.


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● OVER 1000 GAMES
● DAILY RACES AND BONUSES
● 24/7 LIVE SUPPORT
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August 18, 2018, 02:47:50 PM
 #53


The investors are getting answers in appropriate communication channels which are not troll-infested such as this one. Tl;dr: Nothing is missing; the escrows (including coinpayments, who apparently nobody is going after because their name isn't Lauda) have done their job accordingly; there are more funds than what the milestones require.


i would appreciate to read something from MinerJones and Blazed. Doing nothing is not doing nothing.
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August 18, 2018, 07:29:24 PM
 #54

@wtf_is_going_on
You’re forgetting the 4th escrow: Alex Alexandrov, Chairman and CEO of Coinpayments who was put in charge of the maidsafe coins pledged in the crowdsale.
He should also provide an audit of these coins in a public and transparent manner.
It would tell us what happened to the 229,644 MAID he sent from the escrow address 1Mt7MCS6b6hemmL63hZjAdLtbqxCVmh2CZ to Bittrex on Aug 18, 2017.
It might also dispel the rumors that those coins were sold and the proceeds used to partially reimburse Coinpayments users who lost all of their XRP in the “hack” of June 5/17.
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August 18, 2018, 08:01:41 PM
 #55

It might also dispel the rumors that those coins were sold and the proceeds used to partially reimburse Coinpayments users who lost all of their XRP in the “hack” of June 5/17.
Who exactly is spreading these rumors and where? Another shill account spreading nonsense. Roll Eyes

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August 19, 2018, 02:04:35 AM
 #56

Accused mainly by (1) people red-tagged by Lauda, and (2) Quicksy's gang of alts.
I'm neither

I don't believe you.

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August 19, 2018, 03:38:10 AM
 #57

I rarely tag anyone for merit abuse,
Right. 'Only' 63 merit abusers were tagged by you.  Roll Eyes
Never mind the fact that you used the "find" feature and searched for merit to which you would get duplicate results on individual feedback comments. Even if I'm generous and let you have that number of 63, if you compare that to the number of negatives that The Pharmacist has sent out in total, then these instances make up a small amount. Hence, rarely.

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August 19, 2018, 08:14:47 AM
 #58

Never mind the fact that you used the "find" feature and searched for merit to which you would get duplicate results on individual feedback comments. Even if I'm generous and let you have that number of 63, if you compare that to the number of negatives that The Pharmacist has sent out in total, then these instances make up a small amount. Hence, rarely.

I could refute this shaky defense. It are the same members defending each others lies and incoherencies over and over again. But I respect and agree with the quote below:

back to topic please. then still no answers.
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August 19, 2018, 04:19:53 PM
 #59

He will never answer correctly, in the past Lauda told that he don't belong to ALU services, now he seriously tell I don't own Escrow Services.

I havent seen Theymos  who never take care of these forums.

Enough proofs have been provided in the past that Lauda scams or at least practises thing for which all normal users are tagged with negative trust. Unfortunately there are a bunch of high placed members who seem to profit from Lauda's scams and they keep backing him (making themselved fellow scammers).

I have asked Theymos for attention regarding this situation but got ignored. The only thing I read him post is that he was irritated about how DT trust was centralized. However he does not interfere. I also pointed out how this forum is not being ruled by clear principles but by patchwork here and there. I guess it'll be a money thing or otherwise a lack of philosophical insight. But the normal and honest users are being victimized on this forum by this principleless government with its olichargic bunch of scammers, led by Lauda.

I tell you; even when rock hard proof is provided in this thread that Lauda was scamming, other DT members will still refuse to stop supporting him. It happened before. That's why Theymos actually should interfere.
If he was REALLY Theymos, then he could have taken care of this forums. Lauda not only a scammer, but also extornist from hist past thread.
I don't know why this thread is locked https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4566587.0 and wapinter got positive ratings LOL
https://archive.li/Vhzcv.

Back to the topic and waiting to see Lauda stats.

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August 19, 2018, 05:59:40 PM
 #60

this is not about Lauda. This is about what happened with the NVO money and what the escrows did. And there where three (four) of them: Lauda, MinerJones, Blazed and (CoinPayments).
This does not change anything. Proof is still needed. But i have to admit that i am loosing faith.

written be Ton:
https://www.reddit.com/r/NVO/comments/9627up/regarding_coinpayments_one_of_the_escrows/
Quote
To clarify on the situation with Coinpayments : Coinpayments is only an escrow and one of the top investors for NVO. They were apart of the project because I(Ton) originally contacted them to help escrow the ICO due to previous working relationship. This decision for Coinpayments to escrow was changed because Imed preferred the three bitcointalk escrows to manage the funds resulting in Coinpayments being only responsible for escrowing a small portion of the funds raised in Maidsafe which they will refund if that is the decision the community has decided. They were never apart of this team and wasn't involved with the decision-making while displaying full support for the creation of a DEX. Coinpayments did not profit in anyway from NVO and is still only an investor. Originally as NVO was supposed to be on the Safenetwork, they invested due to their support for the Maidsafe team. When Imed attacked maidsafe they were in a neutral position and did not get involved. As for Alex, the CEO of coinpayments, he has stated that he will no longer be working with Imed due to breach of trust and has encouraged a buyback/refund due to the current conflict between cofounders. Anyone can verify this statement by contacting Coinpayments.
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August 20, 2018, 02:55:40 AM
 #61

Accused mainly by (1) people red-tagged by Lauda, and (2) Quicksy's gang of alts.
I'm neither

I don't believe you.

Coming from you, that's rich...  Grin

But yeah still to see a rational response on part of escrows.


BTW Wasn't Blazed a sold account ?

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August 20, 2018, 07:39:28 AM
 #62

I don't know why this thread is locked https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4566587.0 and wapinter got positive ratings LOL
https://archive.li/Vhzcv.

Wapinter used to be tagged red. Do you have a screenshot or an archive about that? It may be handy in other threads. He was probably 'untagged' because he now cooperates with Lauda in bounty campaigns. You can send his former red tag proof to me through PM, otherwise there will be complaints about going off topic here.

this is not about Lauda. This is about what happened with the NVO money and what the escrows did. And there where three (four) of them: Lauda, MinerJones, Blazed and (CoinPayments).

This is not about some abstract escrow service either. It is about the escrow service and therefore also about MinerJones, Blazed and Lauda.

Team members of scam projects are also not considered as innocent. Right?

Back to the topic and waiting to see Lauda stats.
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August 20, 2018, 10:38:11 AM
 #63

I don't know why this thread is locked https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4566587.0 and wapinter got positive ratings LOL
https://archive.li/Vhzcv.

Wapinter used to be tagged red. Do you have a screenshot or an archive about that? It may be handy in other threads. He was probably 'untagged' because he now cooperates with Lauda in bounty campaigns. You can send his former red tag proof to me through PM, otherwise there will be complaints about going off topic here.

While I was in his bounty seen he was tagged, but now i am not participating because he is major Scammer and don't credit the tokens or stakes.
Here is a link where Digaran was saying about wapinter Tagged
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2768374.msg41055834#msg41055834

Still not seeing stats about the Money that has been escrowed by these 3 plus 1 people.




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August 20, 2018, 03:21:18 PM
 #64


While I was in his bounty seen he was tagged, but now i am not participating because he is major Scammer and don't credit the tokens or stakes.
Here is a link where Digaran was saying about wapinter Tagged
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2768374.msg41055834#msg41055834

Still not seeing stats about the Money that has been escrowed by these 3 plus 1 people.


And there won't be any stats... Ton himself said "if you don't trust us wait for the spreadsheet from escrows..." just for Lauda to tell the investors that she won't release any info or TXID about the released milestones, even if after a question like "will you tell US (the investors) to which addresses the milestones were released" she answered "I didn't plan on compiling that but I can" as you can see in the screenshot...

https://i.imgur.com/qVPD26u.jpg

https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/transaction/282170246#o=1 the milestone released in December... 60BTC for example still sitting in the account of the team...
Plus I've tracked another 30 which probably are/were still in control of the team as a few days ago... https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/transaction/334679638#i=0 (30BTC send a few hours after the first questions about the remaining funds from the team were raised...)
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August 20, 2018, 03:46:05 PM
 #65

While I was in his bounty seen he was tagged, but now i am not participating because he is major Scammer and don't credit the tokens or stakes.
Here is a link where Digaran was saying about wapinter Tagged
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2768374.msg41055834#msg41055834

Well, rest asured. Wapinter is red again after suchmoon took proper responsibility. Now Lauda should take responsibility by stopping his cooperation with Wapinter and of course in this thread by posting the requested information.

Cooperation with a scam posting bounty manager and running a scamming escrow service (and a whole lot more). And I get tagged for understandably calling Lauda's nature 'scammy'? This person has so much scam in his aura that he really and finally should be kicked out of DT. Or is he going to post the requested information here proving his escrow innocence?
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August 21, 2018, 08:15:22 PM
 #66

this has to be posted here too. bump.


It does seem to be that way.  Until funds are moved to a public address and the address signed by an escrow agent, I would advise everyone to hold the appropriate parties responsible for this lack of transparency.  The only reasons that Lauda would not move funds to a public address and sign it is 1) he's lying about the amount of funds raised, or 2) he's lying about what he's been using those funds for.  Escrows work for the buyers, not the ICO.  If they are refusing to show your money and account for it, they have effectively already scammed you, regardless of the outcome.

thank you for pointing this out. That's a good assessment and summary
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August 22, 2018, 02:26:24 AM
 #67

It might also dispel the rumors that those coins were sold and the proceeds used to partially reimburse Coinpayments users who lost all of their XRP in the “hack” of June 5/17.
Who exactly is spreading these rumors and where? Another shill account spreading nonsense. Roll Eyes

Why are you replying to a post that shouldn’t concern you in any way? Roll Eyes

Also, do you not see the hypocrisy in your statement which claims that mine is a shill account, while yours is currently shilling 24/7 for “FortuneJack”, an online gambling site?
Tell me something: Do you fully endorse this site and the social harm it causes or do you hold your nose when you count the coins they send you each week?

In any event, pls run along now and finish selling all of the altcoins that you sent to Bittrex more than a year ago.
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August 22, 2018, 02:49:25 AM
 #68

Just read all four pages of this. There is a simple solution, as @OgNasty stated. Sign a message from the account that controls the escrowed bitcoin.

Why subject yourself to all of this unnecessary "trolling" if you can simply prove that the funds are still there and in control of all or any of the aforementioned escrows?

Seems real simple to me.

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August 22, 2018, 02:57:34 AM
 #69

@OgNasty, vlom and others who are not yet Legendary.

These are the btc escrow addresses, the dates they were created and the initial btc balances:

AddressDate createdBalance
3AiGej11G8jUXvEBPvQKPLiHXC7ruUCp1Z2017-05-22 17:43:590
3QV4kZtdzE8S2XdYXMbYQrgaJYBfDnypCC 2017-08-03 22:33:411497.22346798
354jirex7gkFxMiNmN45SxyMxSUsdGcrsf2017-08-05 18:38:361497.22086451
3ECo88VpXVaYSongyYxTYKLHNw16J1cRLK2017-11-24 17:05:051593.96883892
3Bcy5PXBjHdv5Vh3x3w8Fsi5RFPsuZzfvq2017-12-14 23:53:501313.96466437
3D8LSnVv3DvwkXdmTtAsUzygeQUzpDJcPv2018-01-07 20:39:111313.96255714
38PtcLxfmaNJnYHJR4Kpy2qXUFHkaTq8RX2018-06-28 16:15:021243.96201852
36Uh2ine6UzWGPTDYdENqS6pj6Rzx4Q67R2018-07-20 19:43:091143.96193946


Pls note the unexplained removal of 170 btc from escrow starting on June 28/18, the one year anniversary of the end of the crowdsale.
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August 22, 2018, 03:42:16 AM
 #70

And these are the altcoin escrow addresses, the dates they were created and the initial balances:

CoinAddressDate createdBalance
DASHXvL4uRRnwhwDiCUTSJB4Kp2JeWom9ZBkrC2017-07-02 04:34:381,916.58818631 dash
DOGEDLN2kTLDiMm6qsGoR1uCgPm1sZqa3ouxzF2017-07-04 14:36:3423,580,328.23162458 doge
ETH0x3EAE795303522b8FBff85bB113E2EE4eabfAce9A2017-08-08 06:36:206,478.235883 eth
ETC0x00d3B8f4739870D66383e15C4693CEd012178ba110 Aug 2017, 10:534,126.0107 ETC
LTCLiUAhNeKWXEC2Kj875QGM4inoPEXiPhw2w2017-07-01 22:48:077,807.37375203 LTC
maidsafecoin1Mt7MCS6b6hemmL63hZjAdLtbqxCVmh2CZ11/27/2016 7:42:57 AM765,482 maid
waves3PB7m9gLbUs3VVQEKkSuWL4QTvc4xg3UvGC2017-07-05 11:15:1531,108.76280603 waves
ripplerwdLr5vj7tg63FrEN7hdJaVQVPHieXgBAL2017-08-08 15:451,270,586 xrp


Pls note that all of the escrowed altcoins with the exception of ETC and some MAID were sent to Bittrex in July and August of 2017.
Who moved the Dash, Doge and Waves (worth usd $775,000 at the time) is unknown since nvo has never publicly stated which escrow was put in charge of those coins.

In an interesting twist, why “unknown” decided to remove 10 etc from the escrow address earlier today is unknown at this time.
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August 22, 2018, 06:12:43 AM
Last edit: August 22, 2018, 06:24:35 AM by Lauda
 #71

Why subject yourself to all of this unnecessary "trolling" if you can simply prove that the funds are still there and in control of all or any of the aforementioned escrows?
I'm not sure what's more funny, the fact that people think they're entitled to make such a request or that they think that there is a standard for signing messages from multisig. Actually, it's rather sad how ignorant and/or envious you (not directed @you) have to be to do so. Roll Eyes
There was absolutely no proof provided for any of these claims, thus there is absolutely no public proof necessary to counter any of these claims. This is QS shenanigans all over again. Some people never seem to learn.

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August 22, 2018, 06:45:53 AM
 #72

"a secondary Slack channel that was created in an unsuccessful attempt to assert control of the community"

Okay guys, calm down. Like what is this all about.

First of all the second Slack channel was created by me.
Secondary, the slack wasn't an 'unsuccessful' attempt.
It was legitimately 'ended' due to the fact, that the original Slack channel was recovered.

Not really hard to understand.
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August 22, 2018, 07:17:41 AM
 #73

Just read all four pages of this. There is a simple solution, as @OgNasty stated. Sign a message from the account that controls the escrowed bitcoin.

Why subject yourself to all of this unnecessary "trolling" if you can simply prove that the funds are still there and in control of all or any of the aforementioned escrows?

Seems real simple to me.

Isn't it clear why?

Either there is some issue or the self-pompous-entitled bastard pussy is too arrogant and busy to respond.


P.S.: On second thoughts definitely not busy if the individual can come here to mock others.

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August 22, 2018, 03:19:59 PM
 #74

@Boudali.Miloud
do you mind telling us the source?
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August 22, 2018, 04:33:53 PM
Last edit: August 23, 2018, 01:00:55 AM by OgNasty
 #75

I'm not sure what's more funny, the fact that people think they're entitled to make such a request or that they think that there is a standard for signing messages from multisig. Actually, it's rather sad how ignorant and/or envious you (not directed @you) have to be to do so. Roll Eyes
There was absolutely no proof provided for any of these claims, thus there is absolutely no public proof necessary to counter any of these claims. This is QS shenanigans all over again. Some people never seem to learn.

You don't get the benefit of the doubt.  You're supposed to be transparent as an escrow.  It is clear that you are acting as escrow for one scam after another, always making sure to have a scapegoat to take the blame for you.  Many people are sick of watching this BS.  Sign an address and prove the funds.

You can sign a message with multiple private keys and thus have multiple signatures, as with a multisig address. However, that would not map to a multisig address but rather three signatures with each one mapping to the three public keys used in the multisig address.


EDIT: Funny how Lauda is the one who hides other people's funds from them and refuses to show them the 3,000 BTC he has claimed, but now he uses this as a reason to leave me negative trust?


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August 23, 2018, 12:52:24 AM
 #76

So, let’s recap. 

You have 3000 BTC of funds in escrow. 

You have multiple people in this thread, likely people whose funds you are holding in escrow, requesting proof that you have those funds still. 

You claim to have moved those funds to an exchange. (A horrendously irresponsible thing for an escrow to do)

You refuse to sign a message or even provide them with an address where the funds are being held, after numerous requests.

You changed your escrow rules in March, to include that you keep forked coins for yourself, months after you already had these funds in your possession.

Is there anything stated here that is incorrect?

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August 23, 2018, 01:43:37 AM
 #77

I haven't had a lot of time to look through the details of this specific case, however I cannot say I am surprised money is missing from an escrow being handled by MinerJones and Lauda.

This is not the first time Lauda and MJ have been involved in shady escrow business, in fact I called them out on shady escrow dealings over a year ago when they refused to cover losses due to their alleged incompetence.

Lauda, MJ and blazed were also advertising (more proof) for something that was almost certainly a scam, being run by a then brand new account.

I am however very surprised that they were trusted with 3000 BTC of other people's money, even at My 2017 prices. 
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August 23, 2018, 02:03:18 AM
 #78


All the alt coins were converted to BTC last year after the ICO...total investment was 3055 BTC per a post from Lauda.
Nope not true , they did not got converted last year.
The Post from Lauda back than was only the conversion rates so everybody could calculate how much nvst he will get it never states that they directly convert the alts to btc
and they didnt convert them.

Hello newbie account activated after 10 months of inactivity:



And straight to scam accusation board:



Quote
Nope not true , they did not got converted last year.
Can you explain us from where did you get this information and can you show us proofs of your claim?


And these are the altcoin escrow addresses, the dates they were created and the initial balances:

CoinAddressDate createdBalance
DASHXvL4uRRnwhwDiCUTSJB4Kp2JeWom9ZBkrC2017-07-02 04:34:381,916.58818631 dash
DOGEDLN2kTLDiMm6qsGoR1uCgPm1sZqa3ouxzF2017-07-04 14:36:3423,580,328.23162458 doge
ETH0x3EAE795303522b8FBff85bB113E2EE4eabfAce9A2017-08-08 06:36:206,478.235883 eth
ETC0x00d3B8f4739870D66383e15C4693CEd012178ba110 Aug 2017, 10:534,126.0107 ETC
LTCLiUAhNeKWXEC2Kj875QGM4inoPEXiPhw2w2017-07-01 22:48:077,807.37375203 LTC
maidsafecoin1Mt7MCS6b6hemmL63hZjAdLtbqxCVmh2CZ11/27/2016 7:42:57 AM765,482 maid
waves3PB7m9gLbUs3VVQEKkSuWL4QTvc4xg3UvGC2017-07-05 11:15:1531,108.76280603 waves
ripplerwdLr5vj7tg63FrEN7hdJaVQVPHieXgBAL2017-08-08 15:451,270,586 xrp

Pls note that all of the escrowed altcoins with the exception of ETC and some MAID were sent to Bittrex in July and August of 2017.
Looking at trust feedback "alt of.." I suppose this is correct info, right?

@OP who was used to escrow doge, dash and waves?

@lauda
All the alt coins were converted to BTC last year after the ICO...total investment was 3055 BTC per a post from Lauda.
Which is nonsense that I have never said. Unfortunately, they were not all liquidated instantly (had they been, there would be more money to repay).
They were sent to exchange in different dates. Were they liquidated as they reached exchange? How many btc are in escrow wallet at the moment?

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August 23, 2018, 04:02:55 AM
 #79

@Boudali.Miloud
do you mind telling us the source?

Ethereum source is here https://www.reddit.com/r/NVO/comments/6w6qsv/ethereum_contributed_to_got_dumped_into_bittrex/

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August 23, 2018, 05:12:31 AM
Last edit: August 23, 2018, 07:40:08 AM by Lauda
 #80

You have 3000 BTC of funds in escrow.  
Never claimed this. Out of the 4 escrows, I have held the sole keys to the least amount of coin and yet here you are accusing me of doing what I couldn't do.

You claim to have moved those funds to an exchange. (A horrendously irresponsible thing for an escrow to do)
Wrong; I have never claimed this.

You refuse to sign a message or even provide them with an address where the funds are being held, after numerous requests.
Asking the impossible. It's no surprise that neither you nor your master understand how Bitcoin works.

You changed your escrow rules in March, to include that you keep forked coins for yourself, months after you already had these funds in your possession.
Wrong.

@OP who was used to escrow doge, dash and waves?
Why are you asking account OP? Doge -> kitty; Dash -> Blazed; Waves -> nobody IIRC (it wasn't feasible to deploy and the amount invested negligible).

They were sent to exchange in different dates. Were they liquidated as they reached exchange? How many btc are in escrow wallet at the moment?
Depends on the alt. I can't restore exact details (just estimates) as you've noticed in that trust rating. 1,151.92087268 BTC.

Bonus point: There was never 3k BTC to begin with. By now, if you've spent more than 5 minutes reading into the truth (i.e. via the actual communication channel which is TG) you would know why the conversation post to ~3050 BTC was made and what it was used for.
If necessary, I'll look for an impartial DT member to audit the information that I have. Open to volunteers as well.

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August 23, 2018, 05:26:03 AM
 #81

The only responses one can expect from Lauda: No/Wrong

No constructive response; feels like talking to a semi-programmed AI that can only channel negatives. Tongue Tongue

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August 23, 2018, 10:09:52 AM
 #82

Quote
You changed your escrow rules in March, to include that you keep forked coins for yourself, months after you already had these funds in your possession.

What about that?

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August 23, 2018, 10:22:03 AM
 #83

Quote
You changed your escrow rules in March, to include that you keep forked coins for yourself, months after you already had these funds in your possession.
What about that?
Already handled.

You changed your escrow rules in March, to include that you keep forked coins for yourself, months after you already had these funds in your possession.
Wrong.

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August 23, 2018, 11:39:42 AM
 #84

@Boudali.Miloud
do you mind telling us the source?

Sure.

For btc,
During the crowdsale, investors were asked to send funds to the escrow address 3AiGej11G8jUXvEBPvQKPLiHXC7ruUCp1Z which was published in post #1 of the main nvo thread.
Lauda updated it to “354jirex7gkFxMiNmN45SxyMxSUsdGcrsf” after the bch fork last year but it hasn’t been updated since then.

blockchain.info tells us that on Aug 3/17, all funds on “3AiGej11G8jUXvEBPvQKPLiHXC7ruUCp1Z” were sent to “3QV4kZtdzE8S2XdYXMbYQrgaJYBfDnypCC” and then to ”354jirex7gkFxMiNmN45SxyMxSUsdGcrsf”.
This was done in order for Lauda to safely claim bch.
Following the money from ”354jirex7gkFxMiNmN45SxyMxSUsdGcrsf” onward will reveal the other addresses I have posted.


For the altcoins, can I PM you the sources?
I have no objections if you decide to make all or part of that information public.
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August 23, 2018, 01:07:26 PM
 #85

thank you.

you can send it via PM if you like. but i think it would be better to post it here so that everybody has the same info.
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August 23, 2018, 01:10:07 PM
 #86

If necessary, I'll look for an impartial DT member to audit the information that I have. Open to volunteers as well.

Why can't it be posted publicly instead of having to trust yet another person?

This is what's so irritating about this debacle - the OP disappeared after one post (of course) without providing any proof, and you're replying with one-word retorts. So far it looks like the funds are still there but I wouldn't put my neck on the line by going to telegram or some other transient source to get answers that I later wouldn't have any proof of.

If I was one of the NVO bagholders I'd be furious. I think they're entitled to proper communication.

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August 23, 2018, 01:37:35 PM
Last edit: August 23, 2018, 02:01:23 PM by Lauda
 #87

Why can't it be posted publicly instead of having to trust yet another person?
The information about investors was never public (aside of the total raised, but that is needed for token allocation), and it certainly won't be made public because there are a few disgruntled individuals that anonymously wrote some bad words.

If I was one of the NVO bagholders I'd be furious. I think they're entitled to proper communication.
And they have been receiving that, via the NVO TG channel. Plus, there is nothing really to convey from my end: Vote is in progress; decision is made by current holders based on the vote (which is currently in favor of a refund using the existing balance). It's as simple as that.

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August 23, 2018, 02:48:12 PM
Merited by OgNasty (1)
 #88

Quote
You changed your escrow rules in March, to include that you keep forked coins for yourself, months after you already had these funds in your possession.
What about that?
Already handled.

You changed your escrow rules in March, to include that you keep forked coins for yourself, months after you already had these funds in your possession.
Wrong.

Not really.  Here’s your thread from now and your thread from November 2017.   You decided to change the rules after you had the funds in hand. 

https://imgur.com/gallery/pSfxTSl

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August 23, 2018, 03:03:31 PM
 #89

Not really.  Here’s your thread from now and your thread from November 2017.   You decided to change the rules after you had the funds in hand.  

https://imgur.com/gallery/pSfxTSl
Those are policies that apply to CET; it has nothing to do with deals that were already in progress and it has changed in late 2017 IIRC (not March 2018). Assuming that the last thread update definitely corresponds to a policy change just shows how ridiculous the allegations are. As said, not a single claim in this thread is true.

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August 23, 2018, 03:15:43 PM
 #90

Not really.  Here’s your thread from now and your thread from November 2017.   You decided to change the rules after you had the funds in hand.  

https://imgur.com/gallery/pSfxTSl
Those are policies that apply to CET; it has nothing to do with deals that were already in progress and it has changed in late 2017 IIRC (not March 2018). Assuming that the last thread update definitely corresponds to a policy change just shows how ridiculous the allegations are. As said, not a single claim in this thread is true.

You had funds in escrow.   
Forks happened.
You updated your thread to state that you keep all forked coins. 

I can almost guarantee that you are one of the only people that thinks this allegation is ridiculous.

Vod is a douche canoe
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August 23, 2018, 03:19:53 PM
 #91

Not really.  Here’s your thread from now and your thread from November 2017.   You decided to change the rules after you had the funds in hand.  

https://imgur.com/gallery/pSfxTSl
Those are policies that apply to CET; it has nothing to do with deals that were already in progress and it has changed in late 2017 IIRC (not March 2018). Assuming that the last thread update definitely corresponds to a policy change just shows how ridiculous the allegations are. As said, not a single claim in this thread is true.
You had funds in escrow.   
Forks happened.
You updated your thread to state that you keep all forked coins. 

I can almost guarantee that you are one of the only people that thinks this allegation is ridiculous.
Again, it had nothing to do with existing escrow deals. Can you stop with the kool-aid and making up your own stories about my services that aren't even remotely based on reality?

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August 23, 2018, 03:45:04 PM
 #92

Why can't it be posted publicly instead of having to trust yet another person?
The information about investors was never public (aside of the total raised, but that is needed for token allocation), and it certainly won't be made public because there are a few disgruntled individuals that anonymously wrote some bad words.

I don't think anybody here expects personal/sensitive info about investors. Anything that's on the blockchain is fair game though and you could quash most of the allegations in the OP by showing how those coins moved and where it all resides now.

If I was one of the NVO bagholders I'd be furious. I think they're entitled to proper communication.
And they have been receiving that, via the NVO TG channel. Plus, there is nothing really to convey from my end: Vote is in progress; decision is made by current holders based on the vote (which is currently in favor of a refund using the existing balance). It's as simple as that.

TG (or any chat contraption) is not a good way to communicate with investors. There are some scraps of info on Reddit and Medium although I was only able to find it by googling "NVO vote". Nothing on NVO website that I can see. How did the bagholders learn about the vote? It seems very short (2 weeks) and on short notice. Did the team or the escrow e-mail registered users?

Again, it had nothing to do with existing escrow deals. Can you stop with the kool-aid and making up your own stories about my services that aren't even remotely based on reality?

Does this mean that BCH and other major forks will be distributed to NVO bagholders? Simply stating that plus some blockchain proof of the escrow holding those amounts would be much better than this endless back-and-forth.

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August 23, 2018, 04:06:04 PM
Last edit: August 23, 2018, 04:19:06 PM by Lauda
Merited by suchmoon (4)
 #93

I don't think anybody here expects personal/sensitive info about investors.
In contrast to Bitcoin, alts had unique addresses (which had its own set of pros and cons during the sale). I can welcome a third party to look into the movement of these[1].

Anything that's on the blockchain is fair game though and you could quash most of the allegations in the OP by showing how those coins moved and where it all resides now.
You can see this yourself by simply following the original Bitcoin address (it requires only a few jumps). And no, it isn't possible to sign a message from a multisig address especially not from a setup that doesn't display individual keys (it would require compromising all three seeds).

TG (or any chat contraption) is not a good way to communicate with investors.
Bitcointalk was never the way for communicating with NVO; it was their Slack and now it is their TG channel.

How did the bagholders learn about the vote?
Reddit, Medium, TG, Slack and some Discord groups made by individuals.

It seems very short (2 weeks) and on short notice.
Well, this seems contradicting. A certain side is complaining that refunds are not happening fast enough ("that we are stalling"). It can always be prolonged by a bit if need be.

Did the team or the escrow e-mail registered users?
This is where it gets complicated and out of my hand. Allegedly, nemgun had control of the domain(s?) and email(s) (which includes the investor database) before the dispute between the team members arose due to Yanni's disappearance and other stuff.. Some time after it started, Yanni temporarily appeared and allegedly took back control only to disappear again (temporarily?). There's no real way of knowing what exactly happened down there[2] nor whose story is true (hence the vote). I've sent Ton a message about the email database after I've read your question.

Does this mean that BCH and other major forks will be distributed to NVO bagholders? Simply stating that plus some blockchain proof of the escrow holding those amounts would be much better than this endless back-and-forth.
Well, they were already calculated within the releases[3]. Forks were redeemed and released to nemgun as part of his share of the milestones (he barely touched any other coins until one - two months before this disaster) under the claim that they would be used for development purposes. I have the chain data for all of those, including the parts that remain unspent under his control (or yanni's, depending on which side of the story you believe..).
I also have a list of forks that are still within our possession (provided by Anduck); but I'm uncertain of their total value at this time as most of the time available is spent responding and debunking nonsense here and elsewhere.

[1] Though I wonder why the attempt at burning me on a stake (by certain individuals), when I only ever held 1 alternative currency.
[2] It's similar to this thread; nemgun claims X happened, Yanni claims Y happened. Ton sides with Yanni (his original co-founder). Neither side has provided something that I would consider absolute evidence of certain events happening. Therefore, as a neutral third party I proposed that holders vote on the outcome (which they currently are).
[3] Based on the complete audit (which includes the forks), there are 50% more funds available than the minimum requirement by the milestones. This kind-of-dispels the 'team exit scam' claims, but I'm sure that certain individuals would disagree.

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August 23, 2018, 04:18:31 PM
 #94

I don't think anybody here expects personal/sensitive info about investors. Anything that's on the blockchain is fair game though and you could quash most of the allegations in the OP by showing how those coins moved and where it all resides now.

and if i were an escrow i would have these data. and it much less time consuming to post it than argue with people here. and please dont answer: thats why your are not an escrow....


Did the team or the escrow e-mail registered users?

i am not sure if they collected the addresses at the beginning and i think that they will say no.
and no e-mail was sent.

and the website did not have an update. why? i think they will blame nemgun or say that they have to wait for the return of yanni.

Does this mean that BCH and other major forks will be distributed to NVO bagholders? Simply stating that plus some blockchain proof of the escrow holding those amounts would be much better than this endless back-and-forth.

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August 23, 2018, 04:20:48 PM
 #95

Does this mean that BCH and other major forks will be distributed to NVO bagholders? Simply stating that plus some blockchain proof of the escrow holding those amounts would be much better than this endless back-and-forth.
-snip-
I ask you kindly to stop spreading false (out of context) and outdated information about the forks.

Well, they were already calculated within the releases[3]. Forks were redeemed and released to nemgun as part of his share of the milestones (he barely touched any other coins until one - two months before this disaster) under the claim that they would be used for development purposes. I have the chain data for all of those, including the parts that remain unspent under his control (or yanni's, depending on which side of the story you believe..).
I also have a list of forks that are still within our possession (provided by Anduck); but I'm uncertain of their total value at this time as most of the time available is spent responding and debunking nonsense here and elsewhere.

This is how a lot of these false rumors came to be; someone stated something somewhere a while ago and it keeps being dragged around despite newer information being available.

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August 23, 2018, 04:22:05 PM
Merited by OgNasty (1)
 #96

You can trivially sign messages from each private key that are associated with the public keys that were combined to create the multisig address...
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August 23, 2018, 04:23:11 PM
 #97


I ask you kindly to stop spreading false (out of context) and outdated information about the forks.



OK.
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August 23, 2018, 04:23:32 PM
 #98

You can trivially sign messages from each private key that are associated with the public keys that were combined to create the multisig address...
We can not. You have no idea about the setup that is being used, thus you should avoid making unsubstantiated claims.

OK.
Thanks.

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August 23, 2018, 04:28:27 PM
 #99

You can trivially sign messages from each private key that are associated with the public keys that were combined to create the multisig address...
We can not. You have no idea about the setup that is being used, thus you should avoid making unsubstantiated claims.

What is the setup being used that prevents the escrows from accessing their individual keys? (not that this would prove anything without the RedeemScript. I'm just curious) Also, is it a possibility to send a trivial amount from the escrow address(es) to a specific BTC address to prove ownership?

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August 23, 2018, 04:31:01 PM
 #100

What is the setup being used that prevents the escrows from accessing their individual keys? (not that this would prove anything without the RedeemScript. I'm just curious)
Right now, Copay multisig. Plenty of wallets don't allow trivial access to individual keys, which includes hardware wallets. You'd have to derive them using some tool, which IMHO compromises the seed.

Also, is it a possibility to send a trivial amount from the escrow address(es) to a specific BTC address to prove ownership?
This is indeed possible. There is only one BTC escrow address.

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August 23, 2018, 04:32:57 PM
 #101

You can trivially sign messages from each private key that are associated with the public keys that were combined to create the multisig address...
We can not. You have no idea about the setup that is being used, thus you should avoid making unsubstantiated claims.
Well since you won’t give any information about what is preventing this I guess the only reasonable next step is to blindly trust that nothing shady is going on. Roll Eyes
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August 23, 2018, 04:33:55 PM
Last edit: August 23, 2018, 04:46:23 PM by Lauda
 #102

Well since you won’t give any information about what is preventing this I guess the only reasonable next step is to blindly trust that nothing shady is going on. Roll Eyes
I literally just gave out this information.

What is the setup being used that prevents the escrows from accessing their individual keys? (not that this would prove anything without the RedeemScript. I'm just curious)
Right now, Copay multisig.

~Out for a while. Nevermind.

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August 23, 2018, 04:40:07 PM
Merited by suchmoon (4)
 #103

It should be possible to get the individual keys from Copay in a safe, offline manner that does not compromise the keys. I would presume that those holding such a large number of coins would have an airgapped computer, and thus it should be doable. The redeem script for the address 38PtcLxfmaNJnYHJR4Kpy2qXUFHkaTq8RX (last escrow address that has a spent input) should be

Code:
522102596698a9b3a46b91e68643ec84d9a366c7e523f4c6e8448ed47f25f82145be9121037d284f90a07b5c4fac22c019e175b9770063054e93055d0b0e3d340e45b1162d2103adbb0df20118999fb7ba028c9adea6bb2433eca03be52544e743aade23f0ffe853ae

It decodes to the three addresses 1MkacfqMDASc13aLKw9tPZcT4ThXfRJPAB, 1BbhzqYonS2Uf3Vgv1Qbeq4SBLnq34UFVY and 152tUoW2crEVFh7hfHcEnsMAJCSwB6dddx. A signed message from any of those addresses would signify control of one of the keys. It wouldn't necessarily be trivial to sign a message, but definitely doable with a low difficulty.

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August 23, 2018, 04:46:10 PM
 #104

It is definitely possible, and I've done derivation on Copay a number of times before although I wouldn't risk this (while the funds are on it) just for the sake of confirming something because some zero-proof allegations were made. This can be done with said wallet after funds are moved to Electrum multisig for the refund (1-to-n capability is lacking in Copay).
The option of sending a trivial amount somewhere seems much safer and easier to do.

It wouldn't necessarily be trivial to sign a message, but definitely doable with a low difficulty.
Importing the priv. key elsewhere would make it trivial indeed; assuming that every escrow has another wallet on said machine.

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August 23, 2018, 05:54:25 PM
 #105

It seems very short (2 weeks) and on short notice.
Well, this seems contradicting. A certain side is complaining that refunds are not happening fast enough ("that we are stalling"). It can always be prolonged by a bit if need be.

Do you have a sense of the current turnout - how many voted? I could probably find that out on the blockchain but maybe you have the number already. If it's on track to achieve 50%+ in 2 weeks then maybe that's not an issue.

Did the team or the escrow e-mail registered users?
This is where it gets complicated and out of my hand. Allegedly, nemgun had control of the domain(s?) and email(s) (which includes the investor database) before the dispute between the team members arose due to Yanni's disappearance and other stuff.. Some time after it started, Yanni temporarily appeared and allegedly took back control only to disappear again (temporarily?). There's no real way of knowing what exactly happened down there[2] nor whose story is true (hence the vote). I've sent Ton a message about the email database after I've read your question.

Does this mean that BCH and other major forks will be distributed to NVO bagholders? Simply stating that plus some blockchain proof of the escrow holding those amounts would be much better than this endless back-and-forth.
Well, they were already calculated within the releases[3]. Forks were redeemed and released to nemgun as part of his share of the milestones (he barely touched any other coins until one - two months before this disaster) under the claim that they would be used for development purposes. I have the chain data for all of those, including the parts that remain unspent under his control (or yanni's, depending on which side of the story you believe..).
I also have a list of forks that are still within our possession (provided by Anduck); but I'm uncertain of their total value at this time as most of the time available is spent responding and debunking nonsense here and elsewhere.

Ok, thanks for clarifying that.

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August 23, 2018, 05:55:52 PM
 #106

You could argue that if the terms state that you get XBTC for your participation, that shouldn't include the forked coin.  I get that.  I'm curious as to what the consensus is about this; what Lauda thinks; what other members think; and if it was mentioned in the terms of this thing.  I don't think it's way off-topic.

It wouldn't have made sense to claim the BCH at the time of the fork as it would have been a potential security risk to manipulate the private keys holding 1000+ BTC.

It wouldn't make sense for the escrow to keep (or ignore) the BCH after the refunds are issued and the escrow wallet is no longer used. The risk is no longer there and there is a substantial value in BCH and it certainly doesn't belong to the escrow. The escrow could charge a substantial fee for the trouble (and to avoid having to deal with dust forks) but the coins should be distributed.


@suchmoon
Here's the official announcement from nvo about the bch fork:


Makes no difference if you trust it or not.Just split the coins off the bitcoin address and dump the shitcoin and raise more money.The coins exist on the bitcoin address holding bitcoin at the time of the fork.


Official announcement about BCH/BCC:


Yanni Bragui/Marto in slack

"Hi guys, I wanted to clear the state of the BCH from the crowdsale.
The BCH/BCC (result of chain split) belongs to the project. The team won't benefit from these funds, they are not considered as an exceptional "extra".
These coins will be converted to Bitcoin as soon as it is possible, the escrows will handle the process and add the funds to the escrow address.
These coins are considered as exceptional extra funds for the project."

How these funds would benefit the "project" but not the team is unclear.

In any event, Lauda did claim BCH.
Look here https://bitinfocharts.com/bitcoin%20cash/address/3AiGej11G8jUXvEBPvQKPLiHXC7ruUCp1Z
3AiGej11G8jUXvEBPvQKPLiHXC7ruUCp1Z was the btc escrow address (which held 1497.22 btc) at the time of the bch fork which occurred on 2017-08-01  12:20 p.m. UTC.
On Aug 7/17, 1497.22 bch were sent from …p1Z to 1AWiFCKWxWHHvvLdvjGHXG3ViiDs8RE5x7 and then on to 1GkXv39S13k9yyDLtyXR8MsaYWKzRB1JLe, an exchange address that held 43K bch on that day.
This sale would have netted about 112 btc.
Then, if you look here https://bitinfocharts.com/bitcoin/address/354jirex7gkFxMiNmN45SxyMxSUsdGcrsf  you will see that later the same day, 93.999 btc arrived on the btc escrow address.
This suggests that Lauda pocketed about 18 btc or usd $60,000 at the time (usd $120k today). Not bad for 30 minutes of work.

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August 23, 2018, 05:58:34 PM
Last edit: August 23, 2018, 06:46:29 PM by Lauda
 #107

Do you have a sense of the current turnout - how many voted? I could probably find that out on the blockchain but maybe you have the number already. If it's on track to achieve 50%+ in 2 weeks then maybe that's not an issue.
You can track that here: https://nvo.party/.


Official announcement about BCH/BCC:

Quote
Yanni Bragui/Marto in slack

"Hi guys, I wanted to clear the state of the BCH from the crowdsale.
The BCH/BCC (result of chain split) belongs to the project. The team won't benefit from these funds, they are not considered as an exceptional "extra".
These coins will be converted to Bitcoin as soon as it is possible, the escrows will handle the process and add the funds to the escrow address.
These coins are considered as exceptional extra funds for the project."
That isn't the official announcement of anything. That's the version of nemgun/yanni, i.e. whoever was posting from that account at the time (it's somewhat safe to assume the CEO also had no say in this statement..). I always considered them as part of release milestones, and they were calculated as such pre-any requests.

This sale would have netted about 112 btc.
Then, if you look here https://bitinfocharts.com/bitcoin/address/354jirex7gkFxMiNmN45SxyMxSUsdGcrsf  you will see that later the same day, 93.999 btc arrived on the btc escrow address.
This suggests that Lauda pocketed about 18 btc or usd $60,000 at the time (usd $120k today). Not bad for 30 minutes of work.
That can't be right as it seems way too high[1]. Fees were paid by NVO, and 18 BTC is not what anyone "pocketed". The only way to know with absolute certainty is to look up the history of the account where it was liquidated, but that is deliberately being blocked by nemgun.

Not bad for 30 minutes of work.
Based on the messages that I quickly skimmed over, it took me ~2 days to successfully manage this. Which seems to be correct as BTC moved on 2017-08-05.

[1] Update: It isn't right; I just went through thousands of messages. Quoting nemgun: "guys, i would like to ask if we can send 25.623 BTC to Yani"; which was the equivalent of 284.7 BCH or so at the time.

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August 23, 2018, 07:28:45 PM
 #108

Not really.  Here’s your thread from now and your thread from November 2017.   You decided to change the rules after you had the funds in hand.  

https://imgur.com/gallery/pSfxTSl
Those are policies that apply to CET; it has nothing to do with deals that were already in progress and it has changed in late 2017 IIRC (not March 2018). Assuming that the last thread update definitely corresponds to a policy change just shows how ridiculous the allegations are. As said, not a single claim in this thread is true.

You had funds in escrow.  
Forks happened.
You updated your thread to state that you keep all forked coins.  

I can almost guarantee that you are one of the only people that thinks this allegation is ridiculous.

Wow, it looks like you got negatively rated for pointing this out?  Insane...  You even asked for clarity previously and got nothing but deflecting answers and insults.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=289011


You refuse to sign a message or even provide them with an address where the funds are being held, after numerous requests.
Asking the impossible. It's no surprise that neither you nor your master understand how Bitcoin works.

Maybe it was due to you pointing out his refusal to sign an address he used for the multisig escrow, which led to the fact that Lauda doesn't understand that signers on a multisig address can still sign messages using the key they used in the multisig address, putting a huge hole in his argument of why he couldn't prove the funds he claimed to hold?


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August 23, 2018, 07:39:00 PM
Last edit: August 23, 2018, 07:52:42 PM by Lauda
 #109

Wow, it looks like you got negatively rated for pointing this out?  
He got neg. rated for intentionally and blatantly slandering me on my trust wall. Not a single thing posted by him is true; not a single sentence[1].

Maybe it was due to you pointing out his refusal to sign an address he used for the multisig escrow, which led to the fact that Lauda doesn't understand that signers on a multisig address can still sign messages using the key they used in the multisig address, putting a huge hole in his argument of why he couldn't prove the funds he claimed to hold?
Signing from multisig =/= signing from individual keys used for said multisig. This is clear and you would know why even the latter isn't feasible in our setup had you actually read the thread before posting.

[1] Ironically, some of the evidence to debunk the made up stories was posted by someone that I neg. rated.

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August 23, 2018, 08:15:46 PM
 #110

Wow, it looks like you got negatively rated for pointing this out?  
He got neg. rated for intentionally and blatantly slandering me on my trust wall. Not a single thing posted by him is true; not a single sentence[1].

He even posted evidence...  Again, instead of retaliating to facts with negative trust, why not engage in an actual discussion and explain what people are missing?  The blockchain is there to prove the truth so situations like this don't happen.  You have purposely tried to keep the details secret for some reason, and that isn't acceptable for an escrow.  

Here’s your thread from now and your thread from November 2017.   You decided to change the rules after you had the funds in hand.  

https://imgur.com/gallery/pSfxTSl


Signing from multisig =/= signing from individual keys used for said multisig. This is clear and you would know why even the latter isn't feasible in our setup had you actually read the thread before posting.

Semantics really is the weakest argument.  However, now that you understand what it is people expect of a multisig escrow (proving ownership of funds by signing a message from the key you control in the multisig address) what is the new excuse for why you can't do it?  Why are you purposely being difficult and secretive when you have a public blockchain available to prove funds and explain every transfer made?


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August 23, 2018, 08:23:10 PM
 #111

He even posted evidence...  
What he posted is of no relevance to this thread. The policy change has nothing to do with NVO. If you jump to conclusions when you have: a) No evidence. b) No facts. c) No knowledge of anything that's been going on in the NVO ecosystem for the past 12 months, then you clearly are biased in one way or another. Thus, he intentionally made slanderous statements.

Semantics really is the weakest argument.  
It isn't semantics, it is cryptography. There is no multisig signing standard.

what is the new excuse for why you can't do it?  Why are you purposely being difficult and secretive when you have a public blockchain available to prove funds and explain every transfer made?
You haven't read anything in the thread, again.

The 'you are absolutely required to post proof for me or you're a scammer' argument is a false dilemma anyways. The "proof" will automatically be provided once the refunds start being deployed (which is hopefully next week).

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August 23, 2018, 08:50:18 PM
Merited by Quickseller (5)
 #112

The 'you are absolutely required to post proof for me or you're a scammer' argument is a false dilemma anyways. The "proof" will automatically be provided once the refunds start being deployed (which is hopefully next week).

It is not acceptable for an escrow to hide funds you're holding from their owners.  You don't get the benefit of the doubt with other people's money.  Sorry.


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August 23, 2018, 08:52:09 PM
 #113

The 'you are absolutely required to post proof for me or you're a scammer' argument is a false dilemma anyways. The "proof" will automatically be provided once the refunds start being deployed (which is hopefully next week).
It is not acceptable for an escrow to hide funds you're holding from their owners.  You don't get the benefit of the doubt with other people's money.  Sorry.
Nothing is hidden; you're confusing confidentiality with cryptographic authentication. Those that are actually relevant to the project and/or care to spend 5 minutes of their time know where the funds are.

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August 23, 2018, 08:59:21 PM
 #114

The 'you are absolutely required to post proof for me or you're a scammer' argument is a false dilemma anyways. The "proof" will automatically be provided once the refunds start being deployed (which is hopefully next week).
It is not acceptable for an escrow to hide funds you're holding from their owners.  You don't get the benefit of the doubt with other people's money.  Sorry.
Nothing is hidden; you're confusing confidentiality with cryptographic authentication. Those that are actually relevant to the project and/or care to spend 5 minutes of their time know where the funds are.

You're confusing an answer with a deflection.  It's ok though, no honest project would work with you due to how you conduct yourself.  This ICO is a perfect example of what one can expect in future projects involving you.

I still don't understand why you changed your escrow rules about forks after taking these funds, and then claim your escrow thread and escrow services aren't related.  Huh

Here’s your thread from now and your thread from November 2017.   You decided to change the rules after you had the funds in hand.  

https://imgur.com/gallery/pSfxTSl


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August 23, 2018, 09:06:41 PM
 #115

This ICO is a perfect example of what one can expect in future projects involving you.
Neither the team nor the 4th independent escrow  has made a single complaint about me. Peculiar indeed.

I still don't understand why you changed your escrow rules about forks after taking these funds, and then claim your escrow thread and escrow services aren't related.  Huh
Care to stop with the intentional spread of lies? This is the 4th time this is being debunked.

e bch fork which occurred on 2017-08-01  12:20 p.m. UTC.
On Aug 7/17, 1497.22 bch were sent from …p1Z to 1AWiFCKWxWHHvvLdvjGHXG3ViiDs8RE5x7 and then on to 1GkXv39S13k9yyDLtyXR8MsaYWKzRB1JLe, an exchange address that held 43K bch on that day.
This sale would have netted about 112 btc.
Then, if you look here https://bitinfocharts.com/bitcoin/address/354jirex7gkFxMiNmN45SxyMxSUsdGcrsf  you will see that later the same day, 93.999 btc arrived on the btc escrow address.
This suggests that Lauda pocketed about 18 btc or usd $60,000 at the time (usd $120k today). Not bad for 30 minutes of work.
The fork went to the escrow address with a part of it being released under the first milestone. I didn't even need to provide any proof, someone else did it for me^.

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August 23, 2018, 09:28:03 PM
 #116

This ICO is a perfect example of what one can expect in future projects involving you.
Neither the team nor the 4th independent escrow  has made a single complaint about me. Peculiar indeed.

For real peculiar indeed.  With all the pissed off investors who have been scammed and the failure of the ICO along with the lack of transparency, I'd think they'd be upset with you.  They must have some other reason to be pleased with the situation I'm not aware of.  Roll Eyes


I still don't understand why you changed your escrow rules about forks after taking these funds, and then claim your escrow thread and escrow services aren't related.  Huh
Care to stop with the intentional spread of lies? This is the 4th time this is being debunked.

How has it been debunked?  It's a fact.  After you received funds for this ICO escrow deal, you changed your escrow terms to state that you get to keep forked funds.  There is evidence you did this.  It happened.  Are you saying that the evidence provided is fraudulent?

Here’s your thread from now and your thread from November 2017.   You decided to change the rules after you had the funds in hand.  

https://imgur.com/gallery/pSfxTSl


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August 23, 2018, 09:31:12 PM
 #117

How has it been debunked?  It's a fact.  
A "fact" made up to suite your own vendetta.

After you received funds for this ICO escrow deal, you changed your escrow terms to state that you get to keep the forked funds.  There is evidence you did this.  It happened.  Are you saying that the evidence provided is fraudulent.
Yes; the out-of-context "evidence" is fraudulent in the way that it was presented. The policy change is for CET, in the CET thread for future escrow deals[1]; it has nothing to do with NVO escrow terms which were made before Bcash was a thing.

[1] Unless of course you're trying to state that I'm not allowed to change my policies for the future deals that I might accept Huh

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August 23, 2018, 09:37:34 PM
 #118

I still don't understand why you changed your escrow rules about forks after taking these funds, and then claim your escrow thread and escrow services aren't related.  Huh

You keep repeating this after Lauda had already stated numerous times that the rule change did not apply retroactively to the NVO escrow. Stop being an asshole just for the sake of being an asshole.


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August 23, 2018, 09:43:41 PM
 #119

How has it been debunked?  It's a fact.  
A "fact" made up to suite your own vendetta.

After you received funds for this ICO escrow deal, you changed your escrow terms to state that you get to keep the forked funds.  There is evidence you did this.  It happened.  Are you saying that the evidence provided is fraudulent.
Yes; the out-of-context "evidence" is fraudulent in the way that it was presented. The policy change is for CET, in the CET thread for future escrow deals; it has nothing to do with NVO escrow terms which were made before Bcash was a thing.

The BCH fork happened in August of 2017.  You made this change in November of 2017.  Regardless, I will take this as an admission that you had no claim to the forked coins in the NVO escrow.  We're making progress.  Now we just need to see an audit of the non-transparent moves that were made while the funds were not protected by the agreed upon multisig escrow and when you alerted depositors that their funds would be moved to an exchange and would no longer protected by the escrow agreement as the evidence you provided above states that you took 18 BTC for that exchange and the allegations are that users were not aware their funds were being moved from the escrow protection.


You keep repeating this after Lauda had already stated numerous times that the rule change did not apply retroactively to the NVO escrow. Stop being an asshole just for the sake of being an asshole.

The evidence he quoted stated that he took 18 BTC for that transfer.  I'm trying to clear up inconsistencies.  People deserve to know what happened to their money.

This suggests that Lauda pocketed about 18 btc or usd $60,000 at the time (usd $120k today). Not bad for 30 minutes of work.


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August 23, 2018, 09:48:31 PM
 #120

Stop being an asshole just for the sake of being an asshole.
Re-read last sentence in paragraph one and then the above post.  Lips sealed

when you alerted depositors that their funds would be moved to an exchange
They are not "depositors", and the funds are no longer theirs after they get their tokens (except in refund/buyback cases; but not investors - holders). You seem to be ill-informed as to how ICO escrow works.

Official announcement about BCH/BCC:
Yanni Bragui/Marto in slack

"These coins will be converted to Bitcoin as soon as it is possible, the escrows will handle the process and add the funds to the escrow address."
Again, read the thread - it was already posted here.


The evidence he quoted stated that he took 18 BTC for that transfer.  I'm trying to clear up inconsistencies.  People deserve to know what happened to their money.

This suggests that Lauda pocketed about 18 btc or usd $60,000 at the time (usd $120k today). Not bad for 30 minutes of work.
Already debunked to be untrue. Read the thread. Additionally, I've already clarified that I'm paid by NVO (i.e. by the money released to them, and not separate from their milestones) thus the fee (which in case of BCash was not 18 BTC as claimed) is entirely irrelevant to the allegations raised.

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August 23, 2018, 09:55:02 PM
 #121

I still don't understand why you changed your escrow rules about forks after taking these funds, and then claim your escrow thread and escrow services aren't related.  Huh

You keep repeating this after Lauda had already stated numerous times that the rule change did not apply retroactively to the NVO escrow. Stop being an asshole just for the sake of being an asshole.


I think you forgot to reference where lauda posted where he disclosed this to ICO investors prior to them sending money to the project.

Further this term has no equity for the investors and as such is unenforceable in court.

All of this ignores the fact that it is very unlikely this would be a negotiated term at the time the ANN thread was created.
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August 23, 2018, 10:20:01 PM
Merited by vlom (2)
 #122

I still don't understand why you changed your escrow rules about forks after taking these funds, and then claim your escrow thread and escrow services aren't related.  Huh

You keep repeating this after Lauda had already stated numerous times that the rule change did not apply retroactively to the NVO escrow. Stop being an asshole just for the sake of being an asshole.


I think you forgot to reference where lauda posted where he disclosed this to ICO investors prior to them sending money to the project.

Further this term has no equity for the investors and as such is unenforceable in court.

All of this ignores the fact that it is very unlikely this would be a negotiated term at the time the ANN thread was created.

I like to ask Lauda questions to try and get the real story from the horse's mouth.  I would have loved to have asked my questions in PM, but I've been blocked.  When Lauda doesn't answer my questions and replies with insults, I can only go by the information he has provided that I come across, which is very little and extremely scattered.  The CET page was one central resource where there was info about his escrow services, so people go there to get info on his escrow rules.  Seems reasonable right?  Then when people ask questions about the inconsistencies they're insulted and left negative trust instead of Lauda simply answering the questions.  I'm merely here asking questions for the several members who have been PMing me begging me to look into this as they are fearful of receiving negative default trust and being insulted if they ask the questions, like what just happened to rmcdermott927.  I've already marked Lauda a scammer a long time ago. There's no agenda here from me except to find out exactly what happened.  If Lauda can prove that he acted in the best interests of the escrow fund depositors and didn't take additional funds he was not entitled to, I would be happy to remove my most recent trust rating. 

What you need to understand is that I don't care about Lauda.  I don't believe he does any legitimate business for me to effect anyway, so attacking him to tarnish his reputation further is not something I care about wasting time on.  I do care about the newbies who take a first step into Bitcoin only to be scammed and get turned off to crypto.  It is not fair that Lauda walks away with a payday, and they take a haircut on their investment.  When he says things like multisig addresses can't be signed, I immediately know that is a deflection and he can sign his address used for his part of the multisig.  Maybe other people don't know that and need someone to explain these points since they clearly can't trust their escrow agent to not hide behind semantics to dodge their requests.  My hope is that Lauda hasn't stolen any funds, can prove this publicly, and investors get the maximum amount of funds possible returned to them, while those responsible for this scam are held responsible.


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August 23, 2018, 10:24:43 PM
 #123

What you need to understand is that I don't care about Lauda.  
This is why you frequently mention me in private channels, because you just don't care. Evidence of such:



Nobody actively involved in forum disputes would be naive enough to fall for this nonsense. rmcdermott927's vendetta and bias against me is well known since 2017, which is why he proceeded to make these slanderous statements while he had the chance.


Quicksy's puppets stand out by being tenaciously focused on a set of talking points while never disagreeing with each other. I have not seen anything of the sort outside of Quicksy's favorite topics: Lauda is bad, account sales are good, DT is corrupt (except Og and Tomato), merit means groupthink (except when handed out by Quicksy et al), etc, so it's quite safe to treat accounts that wake up at irregular intervals to push the same ideas and don't otherwise contribute to the forum in any meaningful way as Quicksy's alts.
The clique behavior is notable; half-active accounts that appear at irregular intervals and try to jump me. Goalposts are being moved already, which was expected.

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August 23, 2018, 10:37:08 PM
 #124

What you need to understand is that I don't care about Lauda.  
This is why you frequently mention me in private channels, because you just don't care. Evidence of such:

I was clearly responding to a question to summarize what happened...  Believe me, there's nothing I'd like more than to never have to interact with or mention you again.  Stop being tied to ICO scams so I can stop having to while maintaining my conscience.

Looking forward to you signing addresses mapped to those multisigs.


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August 23, 2018, 10:38:44 PM
 #125

Stop being tied to ICO scams so I can stop having to while maintaining my conscience.
NVO is not a scam. You seem to fail to understand the difference between a scam and a bad investment (scam: Centra; bad investment: NVO, MobileGO, etc.).

Looking forward to you signing addresses tied to those multisigs.
It was already clearly stated that this will not happen. You have not read the thread, again (which is the n-th time that I'm notifying you about your failure to do so).

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August 23, 2018, 10:45:55 PM
 #126

Looking forward to you signing addresses tied to those multisigs.
It was already clearly stated that this will not happen. You have not read the thread, again (which is the n-th time that I'm notifying you about your failure to do so).

Yes, I saw a screenshot where you said you would never allow an audit as well as a statement where you were open to it.  Apparently some things can change when people want to know what happened to their money.  I thought we were working towards resolving the issue, but apparently I am just wasting my time.


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August 23, 2018, 10:48:02 PM
 #127

Yes, I saw a screenshot where you said you would never allow an audit as well as a statement where you were open to it.  
I wouldn't allow individuals such Quicksy and yourself any possibility of an audit, while there are individuals to which I'd be open to share the necessary information with. Thus, both statements are correct.

I thought we were working towards resolving the issue, but apparently I am just wasting my time.
There is no issue where the word 'we' is applicable. The NVO situation is being resolved: the vote is process which will (based on current results) be followed by the refund. You are actually actively slowing me down with the ridiculous out-of-context claims and allegations that I have to respond to.

The last valid post that I responded to was the large one by suchmoon (which took ~20 minutes - post editing time included).

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August 23, 2018, 10:58:06 PM
Merited by vlom (1)
 #128

Has anybody offered to do an audit? I would recommend ibminer, he's known to be an unbiased judge of circumstances.


From what I can tell, based on what I have read :

The NVO escrow terms and CET terms are different. So the BCH/other forks scam doesn't really apply here.

Yanni and Nemgun are telling different stories.

You can't really sign messages of a multi-sig, even if you can, it may compromise the all 3 seeds along with the money it.

Blazed, minerjones and Coinpayments haven't replied here, so Lauda is taking a lot of blame and accusations/allegations. 

The 1000 btc isn't really missing, its that, the alts were converted into BTC at a specific rate(?) I am confused on this one, Lauda, you said, this was the exchange rate, and how did they suddenly reduce? I am sorry, this thread is a mess, has more of irrelevant info than the relevant and useful one, cite a link, if you have replied to this before. Were the alts exchanged recently?

So the funds are in multi-sig at the moment and not in an exchange, right?

Anything else am I missing?

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August 23, 2018, 11:03:41 PM
 #129

I still don't understand why you changed your escrow rules about forks after taking these funds, and then claim your escrow thread and escrow services aren't related.  Huh

You keep repeating this after Lauda had already stated numerous times that the rule change did not apply retroactively to the NVO escrow. Stop being an asshole just for the sake of being an asshole.

I think you forgot to reference where lauda posted where he disclosed this to ICO investors prior to them sending money to the project.

Further this term has no equity for the investors and as such is unenforceable in court.

All of this ignores the fact that it is very unlikely this would be a negotiated term at the time the ANN thread was created.

What are you on about with this pseudo-legalese bullshit? BCH did not exist at the time of the ICO. When the BCH fork happened it triggered a decision and it seems that a reasonable one was made, i.e. to redeem the fork and add it to the escrowed funds.

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