Most Bitcoin will be clawed back due to widespread theft

[AnonyMint]

My 2 BTC were stolen when (using localbitcoins) I couldn't find a buyer to deposit to my USA bank account and I was in a rush. So I sold to someone who paid me in paypal. He had stolen access to someone's paypal account and so the payment was reversed.

Ahh, now I understand why you posted this!

With all due respect, you're an idiot for selling something via Paypal in person (or to any non-verified address).

As well 744,000 coins from Mt.Gox were owned by idiots like me.

One day you will learn to accept reality instead of what you dream would be true.

Even very smart people get in a rush and don't have a good option and have to take what is available at the moment.

The point is the theft is ongoing notwithstanding your pompous concept of a perfect world.

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[AnonyMint]

*giant wall of bullshit*

For someone capable of producing giant walls of text to illustrate complex points, I find it odd that you're able to fall so flat on your face at the first logical hurdle.  Unless people are posting their addresses in public places, you'll have difficulty finding the actual person who has the coins.

Are you that fucking ignorant of the power of the NSA and GCHQ?

For example: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/27/gchq-nsa-webcam-images-internet-yahoo

Have you not read that NSA has promised to share data with the G20?

Law enforcement can't do shit if there person who has the coins is in another jurisdiction.

Have you not read the recent declarations from the G20 to cooperate on tax avoidance and law enforcement.

There's no conceivable way you're ever going to force someone on the other side of the planet to give back "stolen" bitcoin unless they were directly involved in the theft and even then it would be incredibly difficult to do.  If you hide your private keys somewhere that no one can find it, there's no way to force anyone to surrender their cryptocurrency, stolen or otherwise.

You are one stupid idiot.

Have you not heard that people have physical bodies and possessions.

Debtor's prisons have been reopened recently.

There are several accounts on this forum that will likely find their way onto my ignore list at some point due to spouting incessant nonsense or outright FUD and you're running pretty high on the list right now.  Go cry wolf at the local looney asylum, or start talking sense, please.  I'm sure I'm not the only one getting tired of reading this shit.

Continue on with your blissful ignorance.

[DooMAD]

*giant wall of bullshit*

For someone capable of producing giant walls of text to illustrate complex points, I find it odd that you're able to fall so flat on your face at the first logical hurdle.  Unless people are posting their addresses in public places, you'll have difficulty finding the actual person who has the coins.

Are you that fucking ignorant of the power of the NSA and GCHQ?

For example: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/27/gchq-nsa-webcam-images-internet-yahoo

Have you not read that NSA has promised to share data with the G20?

Law enforcement can't do shit if there person who has the coins is in another jurisdiction.

Have you not read the recent declarations from the G20 to cooperate on tax avoidance and law enforcement.

There's no conceivable way you're ever going to force someone on the other side of the planet to give back "stolen" bitcoin unless they were directly involved in the theft and even then it would be incredibly difficult to do.  If you hide your private keys somewhere that no one can find it, there's no way to force anyone to surrender their cryptocurrency, stolen or otherwise.

You are one stupid idiot.

Have you not heard that people have physical bodies and possessions.

Debtor's prisons have been reopened recently.

There are several accounts on this forum that will likely find their way onto my ignore list at some point due to spouting incessant nonsense or outright FUD and you're running pretty high on the list right now.  Go cry wolf at the local looney asylum, or start talking sense, please.  I'm sure I'm not the only one getting tired of reading this shit.

Continue on with your blissful ignorance.

Oh, okay then, I'm sure the NSA and GCHQ and the G20 and every other organisation you can recall the name of and throw into a completely unrelated conversation are going to get on the case of your two stolen bitcoins right away!  They'll drop everything and get some satellites moved into position to track down the culprits and restore those wayward coins to their rightful owner!  Like they give a shit who stole your BTC.  Pillock.   

[AnonyMint]

Oh, okay then, I'm sure the NSA and GCHQ and the G20 and every other organisation you can recall the name of and throw into a completely unrelated conversation are going to get on the case of your two stolen bitcoins right away!  They'll drop everything and get some satellites moved into position to track down the culprits and restore those wayward coins to their rightful owner!  Like they give a shit who stole your BTC.  Pillock.  

You don't seem to understand that total theft aggregates over time.

And the government has an obligation to protect the public from massive theft.

And this provides the excuse for the government+banks to take control of Bitcoin.

It all fits together in a perfect plan.

P.S. They can raise the Statute of Limitations ex post facto too, especially if many Grandmas have been harmed.

[DooMAD]

Oh, okay then, I'm sure the NSA and GCHQ and the G20 and every other organisation you can recall the name of and throw into a completely unrelated conversation are going to get on the case of your two stolen bitcoins right away!  They'll drop everything and get some satellites moved into position to track down the culprits and restore those wayward coins to their rightful owner!  Like they give a shit who stole your BTC.  Pillock.   

You don't seem to understand that total theft aggregates over time.

And the government has an obligation to protect the public from massive theft.

And this provides the excuse for the government+banks to take control of Bitcoin.

It all fits together in a perfect plan my warped little brain.

FTFY.

[ethought]

*giant wall of bullshit*

For someone capable of producing giant walls of text to illustrate complex points, I find it odd that you're able to fall so flat on your face at the first logical hurdle.  Unless people are posting their addresses in public places, you'll have difficulty finding the actual person who has the coins.  Law enforcement can't do shit if there person who has the coins is in another jurisdiction.  There's no conceivable way you're ever going to force someone on the other side of the planet to give back "stolen" bitcoin unless they were directly involved in the theft and even then it would be incredibly difficult to do.  If you hide your private keys somewhere that no one can find it, there's no way to force anyone to surrender their cryptocurrency, stolen or otherwise.  The list of reasons why you're so monumentally wrong could go on for several pages.

There are several accounts on this forum that will likely find their way onto my ignore list at some point due to spouting incessant nonsense or outright FUD and you're running pretty high on the list right now.  Go cry wolf at the local looney asylum, or start talking sense, please.  I'm sure I'm not the only one getting tired of reading this shit.

+1

For your 'theory' to actually play out Anonymint you would have to have all law enforcement agencies around the world able to access anyone in the world - just about guaranteed to never happen. Know who the owners of the public addresses in question were (many of which would never be associated with an exchange or any other business that would have real user details in any way) - impossible. And, have to be able to have some way of tracking chains of millions and millions and millions of transactions, and deal with tumblers etc. In conspiracy land maybe, in reality not going to happen.

[AnonyMint]

What makes you so certain that the nemo dat rule will be applied to bitcoin? Isn't it at least plausible for a court to treat it similar to legal tender or other negotiable instruments?

Why should the government give a competitive currency (that threatens the power of the government) all its power over legal tender?

Duh.

As well most governments have already ruled it is not legal tender and they have been issuing warnings about using the crypto-currencies.

As well it is quite clear from precedents, e.g. gold and silver are fungible money too yet they are treated as property by all national governments in the world today.

[AnonyMint]

For your 'theory' to actually play out Anonymint you would have to have all law enforcement agencies around the world able to access anyone in the world - just about guaranteed to never happen. Know who the owners of the public addresses in question were (many of which would never be associated with an exchange or any other business that would have real user details in any way) - impossible. And, have to be able to have some way of tracking chains of millions and millions and millions of transactions, and deal with tumblers etc. In conspiracy land maybe, in reality not going to happen.

You have a very low IQ.

They can access anyone along the chain of ownership, cherry picking someone in their jurisdication and who didn't use strong anonymity methods.

Orthogonal to that slam dunk, you are discounting the degree of tracking and cooperation that the G20 is doing and planning to do, in response the $150 trillion debt implosion coming and the need to confiscate all wealth to resolve this debt.

[practicaldreamer]

For your 'theory' to actually play out Anonymint you would have to have all law enforcement agencies around the world able to access anyone in the world - just about guaranteed to never happen. Know who the owners of the public addresses in question were (many of which would never be associated with an exchange or any other business that would have real user details in any way) - impossible. And, have to be able to have some way of tracking chains of millions and millions and millions of transactions, and deal with tumblers etc. In conspiracy land maybe, in reality not going to happen.

Agreed - and this is what I was kind of driving at in my last post. Its ironic that in Anonymints case of being ripped off to the tune of 2BTC it was done via a paypal account.
   How much theft occurs via credit card ? Billions over the years no doubt - although they aren't too keen on letting us know. And how much of it is ever reclaimed by the banks - very little. This is in spite of the fact that all the transactions are transparent in pretty much a similar way to how BTC transactions are transparent right now. Wouldn't the banks, if it were practically possible, what with all their power and resources and Government backing and NSA support etc etc - wouldn't they be able to reclaim that stolen money back ?

[Skoupi]

You assume mostly that governments and courts will regulate and treat bitcoin like a traditional currency/commodity/whatever...

I think that's wrong. If that was the case then they would have done that already. The fact that most governments are still looking about
what bitcoin exactly is, makes someone think that sooner or later they 'll come up with a more sophisticated regulation.

And seriously mate. You are quoting yourself!  

[DooMAD]

*Disclaimer* This is an AnonyMint thread likely to contain unrealistic and purely hypothetical scenarios that may be closer to fiction than any semblance of reality, along with false logic and copious amounts of clutching at straws.

Recommend attachment for all future AnonyMint threads.

[AnonyMint]

How much theft occurs vis credit card ? Billions. And how much of it is ever reclaimed by the banks - very little.

All of it is recoved via chargebacks on the merchants. I guess you never had a merchant account  

I did. And sold thousands of units of download software.

I realize I am talking to neophytes here who have no actual experience.

[AnonyMint]

You assume mostly that governments and courts will regulate and treat bitcoin like a traditional currency/commodity/whatever...

I think that's wrong. If that was the case then they would have done that already.

Delusion.

Governments act slowly especially to new things. But they do act predictably. There are many precedents as I explained in my prior reply to you. They will never allow a competitor to their legal tender. And they will protect the public interest from widespread theft.

[AnonyMint]

Bitards!

Ignoring is bliss and abyss.

[practicaldreamer]

How much theft occurs vis credit card ? Billions. And how much of it is ever reclaimed by the banks - very little.

All of it is recoved via chargebacks on the merchants.

The issue at hand was the traceability of individuals behind fraudulant but transparent transactions.

Not how unscrupulous banks recoup their losses.

.. you are discounting the degree of tracking and cooperation that the G20 is doing and planning to do, in response the $150 trillion debt implosion coming and the need to confiscate all wealth to resolve this debt.

Are you worried Anon, that the IMF are gonna come looking for their 10% out of the Anonymint households rather large stash - and what with BTC not being totally anonymous you are going to have to look elsewhere for a safe haven for your hard earned loot   ?

[Keyser Soze]

What makes you so certain that the nemo dat rule will be applied to bitcoin? Isn't it at least plausible for a court to treat it similar to legal tender or other negotiable instruments?

Why should the government give a competitive currency (that threatens the power of the government) all its power over legal tender?

Duh.

As well most governments have already ruled it is not legal tender and they have been issuing warnings about using the crypto-currencies.

As well it is quite clear from precedents, e.g. gold and silver are money yet they are treated as property by all national governments in the world today.

I will await the first case that confirms your statements.

Due to the nature of bitcoin, I would imagine most every user holds coin that was stolen at some point. What about the logistics for clawing back any significant portion of these coins? It seems that it would be a tremendous use of resources to attempt a claw back of coins from just one major theft.

[AnonyMint]

How much theft occurs vis credit card ? Billions. And how much of it is ever reclaimed by the banks - very little.

All of it is recoved via chargebacks on the merchants.

The issue at hand was the traceability of individuals behind fraudulant but transparent transactions.

Not how unscrupulous banks recoup their losses.

You are correct that Bitcoin millionaires have more to fear than Bitcoin paupers. Economy-of-scale favors going after the larger of the culpable.

Orthogonal point is the NSA+bankers have no incentive to prosecute when they can solve the problem by putting it on the merchant's back. And its their legal tender system they want to keep in power.

Whereas, crypto-currency can't be charged back and it threatens their power. So they will apply more effort.

.. you are discounting the degree of tracking and cooperation that the G20 is doing and planning to do, in response the $150 trillion debt implosion coming and the need to confiscate all wealth to resolve this debt.

Are you worried Anon, that the IMF are gonna come looking for their 10% out of the Anonymint households rather large stash - and what with BTC not being totally anonymous you are going to have to look elsewhere for a safe haven for your hard earned loot   ?

Indeed I will look else where for a safe haven and a system which works better for users at preventing fraud. But I am not too worried about the tiny amount of Bitcoins someone gave me to distribute to charity. Btw, I paid out cash here in the Philippines to victims and have all my receipts.

[ethought]

How much theft occurs vis credit card ? Billions. And how much of it is ever reclaimed by the banks - very little.

All of it is recoved via chargebacks on the merchants. I guess you never had a merchant account  

I did. And sold thousands of units of download software.

I realize I am talking to neophytes here who have no actual experience.

...card issuers bore a 63% share of fraudulent losses in 2012 and merchants assumed the other 37% of liability, according to the Nilson Report, August 2013.

At least get your facts correct.

[keithers]

man you need some zoloft or some anti depressants...  you are depressing me with all of your threads with all this doom and gloom about the future...

[AnonyMint]

How much theft occurs vis credit card ? Billions. And how much of it is ever reclaimed by the banks - very little.

All of it is recoved via chargebacks on the merchants. I guess you never had a merchant account  

I did. And sold thousands of units of download software.

I realize I am talking to neophytes here who have no actual experience.

...card issuers bore a 63% share of fraudulent losses in 2012 and merchants assumed the other 37% of liability, according to the Nilson Report, August 2013.

At least get your facts correct.

And the merchants pay for that in increased fees!

At least get your economics correct!