Most Bitcoin will be clawed back due to widespread theft

[bitvestor]

Only a person who wants to end up destitute would obtain Bitcoins. Sending Bitcoin to someone is the antithesis of love, it is a kiss of trouble and woe in the future.

I am very sad about this. I had high hopes for decentralized currency. Unfortunately, unless we can perfect widespread anonymity then this entire decentralized currency concept is dead in the future.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=486872.msg5413937#msg5413937

You should realize that this means all BTC you own and all the gains you accrue can be clawed back from you in the future.

Theft of BTC is very widespread even without the exchanges and with the Mt.Gox fiasco (and more to come because the government + banks can bankrupt all the exchanges with regulations, fines, placing holds on funds, etc, or even send in secret agencies to steal the keys).

For those readers trying to rationalize away the contract between accounts holders and Mt.Gox, you have no legal standing. Bitcoin is not legal tender. So many governments have spoken on this already and declared it to be a commodity. Clearly we are looking at a big legal mess with Bitcoin which the government is going to have to solve holistically. Now you see I was correct from the very beginning in Bitcoin : The Digital Kill Switch.

All you Bitcoin millionaires are going to be Bitcoin jailbirds and destitute.

For those who are rationalizing away the chain of ownership (I explained upthread) due to that the lack of physical nature to Bitcoin, you don't have any chance of winning that argument. If it wasn't owned, it wouldn't have value that can be exchanged. Even if we are trading fungible tokens in a pool, the tokens are still owned. Cripes, are you guys totally ingenuous or ignorant.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=486872.msg5414095#msg5414095

Oh, bold and red font.. Must be legit.

Continue to ignore it please. I will be watching all Bitards fall into the abyss together when the mess comes to the point that you can't find any one to buy your coins, yet you are liable for all the clawback amount.

Mansions will be confiscated. Paddy rides to debtors prison will be ensue when you can't pay.

Failure to understand Bitcoin will indeed cost investors billions. 744,408 BTC stolen (nearly 7% of total mined coins to date) and some people seem to be cheering like this is a good thing because they don’t like (long despised) MtGox. This is far far from over.  Where did those stolen coins go? Well check your wallet because they were likely fed back to the markets. If you have been buying bitcoins on any exchange chances are you have some of the stolen loot yourself. These stolen coins can be traced back to their true owner in a direct chain of title thanks to the block chain. If you don’t think this matters you don’t understand the legal system and the principle of Nemo dat quod non habet

Under both American and English law the original owner of stolen property can demand ownership be returned to him if he can prove a chain of title (something the blockchain conveniently provides). The only recourse for an innocent buyer of stolen goods (and only in some jurisdictions) is to argue the exchange it was bought from had an implied warranty and he can try to sue the exchange after returning the coins to the true owner. MtGox is insolvent good luck there. BTC-e is run by anonymous folks think they will stick around in the face of massive lawsuits?

But cheer up there is still a chance most MtGox victims will get their coins back. The threat of massive unending lawsuits targeting innocent bitcoin buyers is an existential one for bitcoin. The 10-15 early adopters stand (by far) to lose the most if bitcoin goes down in flames. They might actually decide to buy out MtGox for the 744,408 bitcoins (an amount grossly exceeding the worth of the company) not because they are altruistic people, but because the chain of lawsuits that would follow if they don't act may hurt their holdings more than the loss of 744,408 bitcoins. It’s a lot of money, however, so its likely a difficult call for them. Regardless expect all future exchanges to require both rigorous identity checks prior to buying and selling as well as fine print stating that anyone who supplies coins to a market is ultimately responsible in the event those coins are determined to be “black” or stolen goods in the future.

Still think there is no need for truly anonymous cryptocurrency?

Serious problem for Bitcoin now:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=486872.msg5407521#msg5407521

More:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=486872.msg5408045#msg5408045

I hope readers can start to comprehend why coin taint is the most serious Achilles heel of Bitcoin.

On Friday, 2 BTC were stolen from me. I am considering reporting this to law enforcement. This means that anyone who receives BTC which derives from my stolen 2 BTC will be liable to return them back to me.

Perhaps the thief pushed them through a mixer such as Bigcoinfog.com

Thus that mixer will be liable to provide records. If it can't, then it will be liable for the 2 BTC.

So you can't you see you are playing with fire by mixing your coins through a centralized mixer.

And can't you see that without widespread anonymity (and decentralized mixers!), then crypto-currency is absolutely useless except to a government which wants a ledger from hell to track everything.

Well, why don't you sell all your bitcoins to me right away get your beloved cash, close your Bitcointalk account and hit the road?
I actually don't know what you look to achieve with a post like this  but whatever it is  failed!!!!

[1715071417]

1715071417

[1715071417]

1715071417

[AnonyMint]

How prophetic my analysis was! It is already being proposed:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=499071.0

I didn't read that before I wrote my analysis.

Your analysis in this thread claims (wrongly) that innocent purchasers of stolen bitcoins will be liable to return them.

No that is not what I wrote. Try to read it again and see if you can wrap your mind around more than 1 simultaneous variable.

The article you cite refers to the possibility of private insurance against accidental loss or theft of bitcoins.

I fail to see the link.

My analysis concluded the government will be tasked with taxing to creating an FDIC. I have no idea how you failed to read that.

[AnonyMint]

And yet again my prophesy is coming true:

Initially this might be done separately in separate jurisdictions. The chaos of this will cause the community to demand global unification. Thus Bitcoin without strong anonymity (as it stands now) is assisting the demand for global authority for governance and the dilution of national and local authority.

Japan says regulation should be international:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=491240.msg5415129#msg5415129

[jonald_fyookball]

I think I'll become a bitcoin millionaire and take my chances anyway.
Thanks for your oh-so heartfelt concerns for us.

[Lauda]

And yet again my prophesy is coming true:

Initially this might be done separately in separate jurisdictions. The chaos of this will cause the community to demand global unification. Thus Bitcoin without strong anonymity (as it stands now) is assisting the demand for global authority for governance and the dilution of national and local authority.

Japan says regulation should be international:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=491240.msg5415129#msg5415129

No.

[zyk]

Only a person who wants to end up destitute would obtain Bitcoins. Sending Bitcoin to someone is the antithesis of love, it is a kiss of trouble and woe in the future.

I am very sad about this. I had high hopes for decentralized currency. Unfortunately, unless we can perfect widespread anonymity then this entire decentralized currency concept is dead in the future.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=486872.msg5413937#msg5413937

You should realize that this means all BTC you own and all the gains you accrue can be clawed back from you in the future.

Theft of BTC is very widespread even without the exchanges and with the Mt.Gox fiasco (and more to come because the government + banks can bankrupt all the exchanges with regulations, fines, placing holds on funds, etc, or even send in secret agencies to steal the keys).

For those readers trying to rationalize away the contract between accounts holders and Mt.Gox, you have no legal standing. Bitcoin is not legal tender. So many governments have spoken on this already and declared it to be a commodity. Clearly we are looking at a big legal mess with Bitcoin which the government is going to have to solve holistically. Now you see I was correct from the very beginning in Bitcoin : The Digital Kill Switch.

All you Bitcoin millionaires are going to be Bitcoin jailbirds and destitute.

For those who are rationalizing away the chain of ownership (I explained upthread) due to that the lack of physical nature to Bitcoin, you don't have any chance of winning that argument. If it wasn't owned, it wouldn't have value that can be exchanged. Even if we are trading fungible tokens in a pool, the tokens are still owned. Cripes, are you guys totally ingenuous or ignorant.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=486872.msg5414095#msg5414095

Oh, bold and red font.. Must be legit.

Continue to ignore it please. I will be watching all Bitards fall into the abyss together when the mess comes to the point that you can't find any one to buy your coins, yet you are liable for all the clawback amount.

Mansions will be confiscated. Paddy rides to debtors prison will be ensue when you can't pay.

Failure to understand Bitcoin will indeed cost investors billions. 744,408 BTC stolen (nearly 7% of total mined coins to date) and some people seem to be cheering like this is a good thing because they don’t like (long despised) MtGox. This is far far from over.  Where did those stolen coins go? Well check your wallet because they were likely fed back to the markets. If you have been buying bitcoins on any exchange chances are you have some of the stolen loot yourself. These stolen coins can be traced back to their true owner in a direct chain of title thanks to the block chain. If you don’t think this matters you don’t understand the legal system and the principle of Nemo dat quod non habet

Under both American and English law the original owner of stolen property can demand ownership be returned to him if he can prove a chain of title (something the blockchain conveniently provides). The only recourse for an innocent buyer of stolen goods (and only in some jurisdictions) is to argue the exchange it was bought from had an implied warranty and he can try to sue the exchange after returning the coins to the true owner. MtGox is insolvent good luck there. BTC-e is run by anonymous folks think they will stick around in the face of massive lawsuits?

But cheer up there is still a chance most MtGox victims will get their coins back. The threat of massive unending lawsuits targeting innocent bitcoin buyers is an existential one for bitcoin. The 10-15 early adopters stand (by far) to lose the most if bitcoin goes down in flames. They might actually decide to buy out MtGox for the 744,408 bitcoins (an amount grossly exceeding the worth of the company) not because they are altruistic people, but because the chain of lawsuits that would follow if they don't act may hurt their holdings more than the loss of 744,408 bitcoins. It’s a lot of money, however, so its likely a difficult call for them. Regardless expect all future exchanges to require both rigorous identity checks prior to buying and selling as well as fine print stating that anyone who supplies coins to a market is ultimately responsible in the event those coins are determined to be “black” or stolen goods in the future.

Still think there is no need for truly anonymous cryptocurrency?

Serious problem for Bitcoin now:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=486872.msg5407521#msg5407521

More:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=486872.msg5408045#msg5408045

I hope readers can start to comprehend why coin taint is the most serious Achilles heel of Bitcoin.

On Friday, 2 BTC were stolen from me. I am considering reporting this to law enforcement. This means that anyone who receives BTC which derives from my stolen 2 BTC will be liable to return them back to me.

Perhaps the thief pushed them through a mixer such as Bigcoinfog.com

Thus that mixer will be liable to provide records. If it can't, then it will be liable for the 2 BTC.

So you can't you see you are playing with fire by mixing your coins through a centralized mixer.

And can't you see that without widespread anonymity (and decentralized mixers!), then crypto-currency is absolutely useless except to a government which wants a ledger from hell to track everything.

Well, why don't you sell all your bitcoins to me right away get your beloved cash, close your Bitcointalk account and hit the road?
I actually don't know what you look to achieve with a post like this  but whatever it is  failed!!!!

OMG Bitcoin failed?  all will be sold to other people??...may you tell your mother to sell as well???

[AnonyMint]

http://www.nestmann.com/supreme-court-confirms-you-really-are-guilty-until-proven-innocent

Have fun mixing your funds with illegal activity in the non-anonymous coin.

[Wipeout2097]

AnonyMint, are you willing to see the BTC you hold? At what rate?

[AnonyMint]

I don't hold any BTC at this time. I don't plan on holding BTC ever again. I do plan on holding crypto-currency and I am very enthusiastic about crypto-currency.

[trc]

I'm sure this has been said before but I can not be held responsible for spending the money that changed many hands after it has been stolen by someone I don't have any relation to. Because I earned it in a legit way.

You can safely say that every single item you see around you has some percent of their value exchanged in crime somewhere in time. Materials, parts, labor, etc. That doesn't make you a criminal, does it? A solution to all this might be leaving everything behind to go live in a very faraway jungle alone; cleansed from everything and everyone.

You've to have some clue about how laws work in this world before making such funny posts because you seem to be writing from another planet where everybody is guilty unless proven otherwise.

[jonald_fyookball]

"Most" will be clawed back.  Yeah right, I bet not even 1% would be by end of 2016. 

Care to make a wager?  Oh that's right you can't.  You don't own any coins.

[ebliever]

I don't hold any BTC at this time. I don't plan on holding BTC ever again. I do plan on holding crypto-currency and I am very enthusiastic about crypto-currency.

If you don't plan on ever touching BTC again, then please go away and stop bothering folks with pointless and obscurantist FUD. This forum is BITCOINtalk.org. As in, the thing you say you want to get away from. So get away already.

[AnonyMint]

US regulator hates anonymity:

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/cohen-regulation-will-support-virtual-currencies-WJJdkFdPTxemGaHivNvMhg.html
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-03-18/if-bitcoin-remains-impractical-treasury-will-let-it-be

He also says:

• They will regulate merchants if Bitcoin becomes widely accepted by them.
• They are coordinating regulation with the G20.
• At 47min, he says they will not likely be concerned with an anonymous coin which is only for virtual goods.

jonald:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=518453.msg5826365#msg5826365

ebliever:

Some have posted saying they want to read more of my analysis. I'm still supporting Bitcoin because it is part of the crypto-currency ecosystem. I would like to see Bitcoin grow. I am sharing my candid analysis. Censoring dissenting views is how groupthink ends up making poor decisions.

If you would stop attacking me personally (which is really noise and clutters the threads making them less useful), then I won't have to reply to defend my right of free speech.

I am minimizing my posts now.

[OROBTC]

...

My paltry holdings of BTC I bought for cash from people I don´t even know (via US Mail and in person via localbitcoins.com) before this Mt Gox imbroglio.  Some was already spent on that 0.25 oz Gold Eagle I bought.

If I decide to spend the rest (or even part) on gold and keep the rest, then:

Molon Labe!



Disclosure: armed to the teeth

[AnonyMint]

Molon Labe!

My argument is they don't have to "come get it":

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=518453.msg5826365#msg5826365

[ebliever]

Molon Labe!

My argument is they don't have to "come get it":

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=518453.msg5826365#msg5826365

You'd have to break Bitcoin to "claw it back", at which point it would have no worth. So that's all you are trying to do with this bizarre, quixotic effort, just tear it down with arcane legal rationalizations that will never hold up in a real court due to the nature of cryptocurrency. Enjoy tilting at your windmills!

[AnonyMint]

Molon Labe!

My argument is they don't have to "come get it":

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=518453.msg5826365#msg5826365

You'd have to break Bitcoin to "claw it back", at which point it would have no worth. So that's all you are trying to do with this bizarre, quixotic effort, just tear it down with arcane legal rationalizations that will never hold up in a real court due to the nature of cryptocurrency. Enjoy tilting at your windmills!

Please read the link before you reply. Tax doesn't require breaking Bitcoin! I am trying to not post much, but you don't even bother to read.

[OROBTC]

...

@ AnonyMint, reply 157

I should have been more precise: if I have gold tucked away, someone will get hurt trying to take it.

***

I quite agree with your description of .gov power to tax and take.  No doubt that if our overlords start cracking down hard it would be better to run lower under the radar (than I am now, lol).  

-- Run any excess BTC through a good mixer
-- Spend some of it on items of real worth, say overseas
-- GIVE away wallets w/ Bitcoin, like to your cousin in Slovakia...

***

"There are more of us than there are of them."

[softron]

I really dont think someone can steal  that much bitcoins