The difference between science and religion

[Spendulus]

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We cannot collect the evidence outside of our universe.  However, quantum fluctuations could have jump started our initial inflation.
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That makes zero sense, if you think it over. Outside of our own universe has no meaning.

 I don't think it's necessary to posit a means by which the initial expansion of our universe occurred. That is not needed to support the hypothesis of the Big Bang.

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[CoinCube]

Give me your best example of when God intervened to make "things that work".  I fail to see any "hand of God" in this universe.

You answered this question yourself you just don't realise it.

That is the only reason why...  Cooperation and socialization.

What does God have to do with cooperation. This is a challenging topic so I will start with the comments of miscreanity who commented on it earlier.

What is actually the worst possible outcome is to have one strategy, religion, or culture adopted by everyone.

This is the point I disagree with. I think we both agree that the optimal way to increase degrees of freedom for individuals is to allow and enable instead of controlling. A universal strategy is an essential foundation that enables freedom. Without that, we have the situation that is developing now with varying viewpoints where some sets are progressing toward destruction and others are being dragged into declining entropy. Competition can take place when there is room for growth but on a globally saturated scale, nobody wins.

Reproductive strategy is likely to become essentially irrelevant for humanity, possibly within our lifetimes. It seems inevitable that our existing biological bodies will give way to different forms that will carry us off-planet. At that point, allowing and enabling all individuals to thrive in a constructive environment becomes paramount. What then is the protocol that keeps that freedom from becoming destructive? Of course, my thinking is that the protocol is outlined in the Christian bible.

This relationship between God and cooperation is as fundamental as it is necessary. God breaks us free from ultimately self-destructive conflict and enables ever higher orders of cooperative synergy. The more we bring ourselves into alignment with God the greater the levels of cooperation that become possible.

I discussed this point in some detail here:
See: Superrationality and the Infinite

[Bitrio]

If you took all the religions in the world and destroyed them, in 1000 years there would be entirely new religions, completely different from the old religions...

If you took all the science in the world and destroyed it... in 1000 years there would be EXACTLY THE SAME SCIENCE

Mathematics is not something invented by humans, it is discovered by humans... mathematics is the same in any language, on any planet... 1 + 1 = 2 is a provable concept and does not change based on societal norms or which deities they currently worship

Newton and Leibniz are credited with the co-discovery of calculus... they did not invent it, they both discovered it at the same time... math/science is universal, religion is not

Science is based on discovering and proving, religion is based on believing - there're no proofs there and it doesn't need them.

There is a saying that we as humans should just judge things we saw, felt, heard, smelled or so.
So who has ever saw god, who has ever heard god nobody right? The same things can be said about our big bang, nobody saw it...

In the end no one can ever proof things to 100% we either have faith in something we call god or we believe in the big bang and the whole precess behind it.

In science everything is put in question.  The big bang theory functions in those models which are worked out to prove it. As long as sth functions several times a conclusion is made that it is true and proved by science. But it doesn't mean it's really true and later can be proved false. When the Earth was believed to be flat the science considered it to be flat.
Moreover, apart from science and religion one more way to experience the world is art - perception of reality by means of images.

[af_newbie]

Give me your best example of when God intervened to make "things that work".  I fail to see any "hand of God" in this universe.

You answered this question yourself you just don't realise it.

That is the only reason why...  Cooperation and socialization.

What does God have to do with cooperation. This is a challenging topic so I will start with the comments of miscreanity who commented on it earlier.

What is actually the worst possible outcome is to have one strategy, religion, or culture adopted by everyone.

This is the point I disagree with. I think we both agree that the optimal way to increase degrees of freedom for individuals is to allow and enable instead of controlling. A universal strategy is an essential foundation that enables freedom. Without that, we have the situation that is developing now with varying viewpoints where some sets are progressing toward destruction and others are being dragged into declining entropy. Competition can take place when there is room for growth but on a globally saturated scale, nobody wins.

Reproductive strategy is likely to become essentially irrelevant for humanity, possibly within our lifetimes. It seems inevitable that our existing biological bodies will give way to different forms that will carry us off-planet. At that point, allowing and enabling all individuals to thrive in a constructive environment becomes paramount. What then is the protocol that keeps that freedom from becoming destructive? Of course, my thinking is that the protocol is outlined in the Christian bible.

This relationship between God and cooperation is as fundamental as it is necessary. God breaks us free from ultimately self-destructive conflict and enables ever higher orders of cooperative synergy. The more we bring ourselves into alignment with God the greater the levels of cooperation that become possible.

I discussed this point in some detail here:
See: Superrationality and the Infinite

Common myths establish an immediate trust between strangers and allow for unimpeded cooperation.

That is why people who otherwise would kill each other work together and trust each other when they believe in the same religious or political dogma.

This of course has nothing to do if the underlying dogma is true or not.

Many UFOlogists would immediately trust other UFOlogists.  Same goes for FlatEarthers, Christians or Muslims.

The lower the IQ of individuals in any given group, the easier it is to establish that common trust based on the underlying myth or belief.

[BADecker]

Give me your best example of when God intervened to make "things that work".  I fail to see any "hand of God" in this universe.

You answered this question yourself you just don't realise it.

That is the only reason why...  Cooperation and socialization.

What does God have to do with cooperation. This is a challenging topic so I will start with the comments of miscreanity who commented on it earlier.

What is actually the worst possible outcome is to have one strategy, religion, or culture adopted by everyone.

This is the point I disagree with. I think we both agree that the optimal way to increase degrees of freedom for individuals is to allow and enable instead of controlling. A universal strategy is an essential foundation that enables freedom. Without that, we have the situation that is developing now with varying viewpoints where some sets are progressing toward destruction and others are being dragged into declining entropy. Competition can take place when there is room for growth but on a globally saturated scale, nobody wins.

Reproductive strategy is likely to become essentially irrelevant for humanity, possibly within our lifetimes. It seems inevitable that our existing biological bodies will give way to different forms that will carry us off-planet. At that point, allowing and enabling all individuals to thrive in a constructive environment becomes paramount. What then is the protocol that keeps that freedom from becoming destructive? Of course, my thinking is that the protocol is outlined in the Christian bible.

This relationship between God and cooperation is as fundamental as it is necessary. God breaks us free from ultimately self-destructive conflict and enables ever higher orders of cooperative synergy. The more we bring ourselves into alignment with God the greater the levels of cooperation that become possible.

I discussed this point in some detail here:
See: Superrationality and the Infinite

Common myths establish an immediate trust between strangers and allow for unimpeded cooperation.

That is why people who otherwise would kill each other work together and trust each other when they believe in the same religious or political dogma.

This of course has nothing to do if the underlying dogma is true or not.

Many UFOlogists would immediately trust other UFOlogists.  Same goes for FlatEarthers, Christians or Muslims.

The lower the IQ of individuals in any given group, the easier it is to establish that common trust based on the underlying myth or belief.

If the trust has been established, it remains even though the myths are shown for what they are... myths. How much stronger is the trust among believers, when the Bible is proven to be truth and fact.

[af_newbie]

Give me your best example of when God intervened to make "things that work".  I fail to see any "hand of God" in this universe.

You answered this question yourself you just don't realise it.

That is the only reason why...  Cooperation and socialization.

What does God have to do with cooperation. This is a challenging topic so I will start with the comments of miscreanity who commented on it earlier.

What is actually the worst possible outcome is to have one strategy, religion, or culture adopted by everyone.

This is the point I disagree with. I think we both agree that the optimal way to increase degrees of freedom for individuals is to allow and enable instead of controlling. A universal strategy is an essential foundation that enables freedom. Without that, we have the situation that is developing now with varying viewpoints where some sets are progressing toward destruction and others are being dragged into declining entropy. Competition can take place when there is room for growth but on a globally saturated scale, nobody wins.

Reproductive strategy is likely to become essentially irrelevant for humanity, possibly within our lifetimes. It seems inevitable that our existing biological bodies will give way to different forms that will carry us off-planet. At that point, allowing and enabling all individuals to thrive in a constructive environment becomes paramount. What then is the protocol that keeps that freedom from becoming destructive? Of course, my thinking is that the protocol is outlined in the Christian bible.

This relationship between God and cooperation is as fundamental as it is necessary. God breaks us free from ultimately self-destructive conflict and enables ever higher orders of cooperative synergy. The more we bring ourselves into alignment with God the greater the levels of cooperation that become possible.

I discussed this point in some detail here:
See: Superrationality and the Infinite

Common myths establish an immediate trust between strangers and allow for unimpeded cooperation.

That is why people who otherwise would kill each other work together and trust each other when they believe in the same religious or political dogma.

This of course has nothing to do if the underlying dogma is true or not.

Many UFOlogists would immediately trust other UFOlogists.  Same goes for FlatEarthers, Christians or Muslims.

The lower the IQ of individuals in any given group, the easier it is to establish that common trust based on the underlying myth or belief.

If the trust has been established, it remains even though the myths are shown for what they are... myths. How much stronger is the trust among believers, when the Bible is proven to be truth and fact.

Re-read my post and think about it some more.

Christian myth is the same as the Flat Earther movement from the psychological point of view. Once you are part of the group with common beliefs you cling onto that belief no matter what, that is because most people (with lesser intelligence) do not want to be wrong.

You convince yourself that what you believe is true and when you see others in your group expressing their beliefs it validates your (false) belief.  Herd mentality and confirmation bias is at play here.

It is easier to abandon your false beliefs when you leave the group, and/or have good critical thinking skills.

PS. Most scientists love to be wrong, that is why you don't see too many scientists who believe in ancient myths.

[CoinCube]

Common myths establish an immediate trust between strangers and allow for unimpeded cooperation.

That is why people who otherwise would kill each other work together and trust each other when they believe in the same religious or political dogma.

This of course has nothing to do if the underlying dogma is true or not.

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Cooperative myths do indeed establish trust between strangers but such a process is self limited if the myths are false.

Cooperation forms a foundation that society builds itself upon. It allows for the unfolding of potential into higher orders of development. If the shared beliefs are false, that foundation will eventually fail and the society with it.

With increasing cooperation the power and understanding of a society grows progressively with time. Such understanding will explore and and expose any demonstrable untruths in the shared belief structure.

When this happens the common basis for cooperation fails and the society fragments and starts the process of collapse.

What is universe changing, however, is an inclusive paradigm that allows for genuine total and voluntary cooperation that cannot ever be falsified with progress. This is what is achieved by grounding ones foundation for cooperation in God.

God cannot be falsified, is entirely consistent with our knowledge of truth, and maximizes cooperation over time.

You are certainly free to reject God and attempt to ground your reality in some other faith. That is exactly what you have done with your embrace of nihilistic principles.

You can live your life as though your existence is simply chance.
You can deny any ultimate purpose to your existence.
You can even decide that you have no inherent value or worth.

In the long run, however, these are not viable beliefs. They have no future because they don't form the necessary foundation needed to sustain cooperation and hence life over time.

[af_newbie]

Common myths establish an immediate trust between strangers and allow for unimpeded cooperation.

That is why people who otherwise would kill each other work together and trust each other when they believe in the same religious or political dogma.

This of course has nothing to do if the underlying dogma is true or not.

...

Cooperative myths do indeed establish trust between strangers but such a process is self limited if the myths are false.

Cooperation forms a foundation that society builds itself upon. It allows for the unfolding of potential into higher orders of development. If the shared beliefs are false, that foundation will eventually fail and the society with it.

With increasing cooperation the power and understanding of a society grows progressively with time. Such understanding will explore and and expose any demonstrable untruths in the shared belief structure.

When this happens the common basis for cooperation fails and the society fragments and starts the process of collapse.

What is universe changing, however, is an inclusive paradigm that allows for genuine total and voluntary cooperation that cannot ever be falsified with progress. This is what is achieved by grounding ones foundation for cooperation in God.

God cannot be falsified, is entirely consistent with our knowledge of truth, and maximizes cooperation over time.

You are certainly free to reject God and attempt to ground your reality in some other faith. That is exactly what you have done with your embrace of nihilistic principles.

You can live your life as though your existence is simply chance.
You can deny any ultimate purpose to your existence.
You can even decide that you have no inherent value or worth.

In the long run, however, these are not viable beliefs. They have no future because they don't form the necessary foundation needed to sustain cooperation and hence life over time.

Not if the participants do not know that the underlying myth is false.

Who said there is no purpose of your existence in absence of a common supernatural myth?

The purpose of any living organism is to procreate. Trees, fish, humans or any other living thing have this in common.  Pass your genes to the next generation.  Have you ever wondered why grandparents are happy to see their grandchildren?   Thanks to science not supernatural myths we know better how life forms function.

If you ever farmed or did some gardening you would understand that plants and animals go to extra lengths to pass their seeds, and make sure that some of the seeds germinate and start a new life.  This is true universally all across the animal and plant kingdoms.

The superimposed purpose provided by a supernatural myth is just that.  Nothing to do with reality.

BTW, most secular nations around the world function quite well.  The religious governments are the most oppressive; Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Israel (although they consider themselves a secular nation) etc.  Your notion that you need a religious supernatural myth to unite a nation is just false.  

Nationalism, politics can unite people just as well, and unite them long-term.

[darklus123]

Einstein was not a religious scholar, it was not his area of expertise.  Anyway, he was most definitely not a christian

Einstein was also a Socialist...
And extremely anti-capitalism

Well, it doesn't matter if he is a christian or not. Based on the given statement from Wikipedia which i give you the link. It is pretty obvious and clear and factual that Einstein believes of an entity "who","that","which" created everything.

A quote from just someones blog is not so reliable at all.

He is not an atheist either

[CoinCube]

Nationalism, politics can unite people just as well, and unite them long-term.

No it can't not on non trivial time horizons. Nationalism and politics require a common cooperative foundation to sustain them. Inertia can only holds things together for a limited time.

Similarly your stated purpose of competitive reproductive and genetic supremacy is barren ground to organise a society around. We saw this tried in the 1940s and the horrors it leads to.

You are correct that every human theocracy is and will continue to be terrible but that is a separate topic related to human ignorance, and lust for power.

We are not going to agree so I am going to give you the last word in this conversation.

I will leave you with a different book recommendation since you were not interested in the religious one. Here is a science fiction series related to the topics discussed above. It is totally free of any talk of God.

For those that like science fiction I recently read the Doom Star Series by Vaughn Hepner. It is interesting social commentary underneath a good story.
https://www.amazon.com/Star-Soldier-Doom-Book-ebook/dp/B003SNJVH4

It envisions a dystopian future where humanity has terraformed and spread throughout the solar system and traditional religion appears to have has died out or been suppressed.

Humanity has splintered into various ideological factions. Earth is under the control of a stifling planet wide socialism. Mars and Venus are under the control of genetically engineered super humans who believe their superiority gives them the right to rule. Jupiter is controlled by philosopher kings who value only logic. Total laissez-faire capitalism dominates the outer planets and on the edges of the solar system a group seeks to create the ultimate controllable soldier by mixing man and machine.

As the story progress the various groups compete for dominance committing ever more horrific acts of evil that are completely justified by their various philosophies. It is quite clear that in this future humanity is in danger of extinction as the self-inflected horrors worsen and billions start to die.

The series is subtle social commentary the reader slowly realizes that while some ideological groups are better then others they are all pretty bad.

It is a vision of a future without God where religion in the form of various ideological and political constructs is very much alive and well.

[BADecker]

God is so loving that He does what people request. People requested that God convert an aspect of nature into flesh eating bacteria. So, He did it for them.

So your god created flesh eating bacteria because someone asked for it, but ignores the millions of people who ask to be cured?

Your god is a lunatic.

No. You are the lunatic. Why? Because God created salvation for all people... Jesus salvation for them. You know this, yet you won't save yourself by turning to believe. You're an utter stupid lunatic to reject the only salvation that there is.

[BADecker]

Humm in a single post you managed to:

1) Demand others personally ask God to manifest before you.
2) Insist God eliminate a living species from the planet at your request.
3) Proclaim that God not does not exist.
4) Call believers of God freaks.
5) Break into laughter presumably at your own wit.

I don't see much point in further discussion. You clearly have made up your mind and show no interest in reflection or exploring the topic in a non superficial manner.

I will bow out of this thread and leave it to those with an interest in this flavor of discourse.

You are still here?

Did God create the flesh eating bacteria? Yes or no?

I bet you will dodge to answer this question.

God created everything including bacteria.
...

Are you sure?  I thought he loves people.  Why is he purposely killing us?  Is he a sadistic maniac?

Does the flesh eating bacteria also eats his flesh? You know, since we are created in his image and all.

Did you forget already? God loved us. So He did what we asked by giving us the results of our sin that we asked for. Then, when we asked for salvation, He sent Jesus to die on the cross to save us.

So, God gave us destruction and salvation like we asked for... well, some of us. Looks to me like you are continuing to ask for destruction.

Poor Jesus. Took suffering and death on the cross for you. And you are just throwing it away. (Sigh!) We're all going to miss you in Heaven.

[BADecker]

Are you sure?  I thought he loves people.  Why is he purposely killing us?
...

He does. That is why he is saving us inspite of ourselves.

Everybody dies. That is inevitable. The only variable is exactly how that death occurs.

The only offer of immortality on the table is through God and it requires an act of faith.

That is dumb. No intelligent being would design a system this way.

All the killing and torture is unnecessary. He is like a small child, unsure of himself because he needs people to worship him?

Why would he create life in the first place? What would be the purpose?  To worship him?  He could have created some fans where ever he resides and be done with it.  

Why going through the trouble of the big bang, billions years of evolution, star formation, expanding universe, supernovas, evolution from simple bacteria to humans etc.  That just does not add up.  It is just too complicated story for the creation of an obedient, one specie of primates, on an insignificant planet, in billions of solar systems, in a galaxy, among billions of other galaxies.  

You do know that the Earth is spinning on its axis, as it goes around the Sun, as do other planets.  You do understand that the solar system itself is travelling at 230 km/s through space, around the center of our galaxy.  Our Milky Way is also moving through space at about 580 km/s.

The whole system is just overly complicated if the primary purpose of the creation was a specific member of the Ape family to worship and believe in the creator. You would have to be an idiot to design something like this if you just wanted obedient primates who would believe in you.

If I was God, I would just create everything all at once, 6000 years ago, on flat Earth, with glass dome over it, place it in the center of the universe and be done with it.

BTW, you know that immortality is physically impossible, don't you?

So the question to you is:  Is your God an idiot or a deranged psychopath who would go to extra length to satisfy his emotional needs?

PS.
He definitely does not know much about Physics or Biology to create such a mess.

Why do you keep on asking for destruction? You know He loves you, and will, out of love, give you what you ask for. But, I guess that's okay. After all, nobody, especially God, would take your freedom to self-destruct away from you.

And Coincube. Don't feel so bad about af_newbie. This life is short. We'll be out of here in relatively short order. We won't even remember af_newbie in Heaven. Just be patient a little while longer, and we will be in joy forevermore.

[BADecker]

If the trust has been established, it remains even though the myths are shown for what they are... myths. How much stronger is the trust among believers, when the Bible is proven to be truth and fact.

Re-read my post and think about it some more.

Christian myth is the same as the Flat Earther movement from the psychological point of view. Once you are part of the group with common beliefs you cling onto that belief no matter what, that is because most people (with lesser intelligence) do not want to be wrong.

You convince yourself that what you believe is true and when you see others in your group expressing their beliefs it validates your (false) belief.  Herd mentality and confirmation bias is at play here.

It is easier to abandon your false beliefs when you leave the group, and/or have good critical thinking skills.

PS. Most scientists love to be wrong, that is why you don't see too many scientists who believe in ancient myths.

If you studied Bible from a scientific standpoint, you would find that Bible isn't myth.

So, it is you who has the myths and false beliefs.

[BADecker]

Nationalism, politics can unite people just as well, and unite them long-term.

No it can't not on non trivial time horizons. Nationalism and politics require a common cooperative foundation to sustain them. Inertia can only holds things together for a limited time.
...

And belief in an imaginary friend will hold the society forever? LOL.  You base this on what?  The bloody history of the Christian church?
Those beliefs were imposed with quite a bit of fire and sword handiwork.

If I were you, I would worry about education and science to eradicate all the superstition and beliefs in the supernatural in few generations.

Science will be here in few hundred years,  religions will not.

If you want to know where religions are going, check out the participation rates in younger generations.

http://www.pewforum.org/2018/06/13/young-adults-around-the-world-are-less-religious-by-several-measures/

The trend will accelerate as people become more educated and science fills gaps in our knowledge (that is where the God of the Gaps lives).

At the time of the Great Flood, there were only 8 people who still accepted God... Noah and hs family. When you consider the potential for reproduction back then, there were probably easily over a billion other people who didn't accept God. Who won?

[BADecker]

"In heaven, all interesting people are missing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

In Hell, the most interesting is the fragrance of burnt flesh.     

[Moloch]

[KonstantinosM]

The difference between religion and science is the same between sanity and insanity.

When you are sane you can use your sanity (same as science) to make educated predictions about what will happen next.

When you are insane your insanity will prevent that. You might think that the government is made up of aliens, and no new facts will disprove that.

If you are sane and someone presents you with the conspiracy theory that the government is full of aliens that are all powerful and are hungry for human flesh, you will most likely ask for evidence. There is no such evidence so you will dismiss it.

The insane (religious) man will live in fear of his mayor eating him alive and will avoid government buildings based on his misconceptions of the world.

[BADecker]

Science is build up on observations, experimentation and evidences, in other words driven by the so called scientific method. Religion is based on faith, which by definition is believing without evidences.

Scientific theories must be falsifiable, religious doctrines cannot.

The Bible is eye witness observations and records of things that God does among people. If you think that Bible eye witness accounts are false, then throw out all the not-known-to-be-fact science theories right along with it... theories that are known to not be known fact.

[stats]

Science is build up on observations, experimentation and evidences, in other words driven by the so called scientific method. Religion is based on faith, which by definition is believing without evidences.

Scientific theories must be falsifiable, religious doctrines cannot.

The Bible is eye witness observations and records of things that God does among people. If you think that Bible eye witness accounts are false, then throw out all the not-known-to-be-fact science theories right along with it... theories that are known to not be known fact.

And when your bible has comments Jesus made to your God with no-one around to observe, these were somehow observed by people who then wrote about them?

Whatever Fucktard!

Can't be eyewitness observations!