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Author Topic: Something, something, something, technical analysis  (Read 31135 times)
oda.krell (OP)
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June 24, 2014, 01:03:56 PM
 #321

Can we make your post a sticky in this sub forum?  Or maybe we need a bumper sticker or something.  Like you, every time I hear someone say that these buyers are going to immediately dump their coins on exchanges, I feel like I'm trapped in that movie "Idiocracy."

Which simply means you don't understand how arbitrage works.


Which simply means you don't understand that HNW investors are not stupid troll day traders.

No, you're right of course. They clearly became HNW by being hodlors foreva ^__^ lol!!1!


In any case, believe what you want. I don't assume coins will be dumped after the auction either, but that's not the same as calling the idea that it might happen "idiotic".

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June 24, 2014, 02:47:18 PM
 #322

I'm not against new hypotheses, but TA is simply pattern seeking behavior with no utility. I have my own Bitcoin pseudoscience I call "Rule of Thirds and Superstitious Numbers." It's just as useful as TA. I just don't take it seriously.

Larry Williams. In 1987, he wins the World Championship in futures trading putting to use TA indicators which he developed himself, to turn $10K to $ 1 million within the space of a year. Someone should have told him that he could have have saved himself the bother of developing his own indicators and just plunked for the 'Rule of Thirds and Superstitious Numbers' method, as it just as good.
I think I saw his infomercial. Thanks, but I'll stick to HODL.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
Bitcoin_is_here_to_stay
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June 24, 2014, 02:57:15 PM
Last edit: June 24, 2014, 03:17:01 PM by Bitcoin_is_here_to_stay
 #323

Can we make your post a sticky in this sub forum?  Or maybe we need a bumper sticker or something.  Like you, every time I hear someone say that these buyers are going to immediately dump their coins on exchanges, I feel like I'm trapped in that movie "Idiocracy."

Which simply means you don't understand how arbitrage works.


Also, since the last 2 pages this thread has become a pointless bear circle-jerk.



Yes, neither me or Oda said they are going immediately to dump. I have no opinion on that.

I just do not see why buying above the market would be such a great opportunity for the institutional investors - there are many other opportunities to do it legally in US for large batches of btc, as I pointed out in the previous post.

EDIT: And why is saying that SR coins are not likely to sell above market a "bear talk"? It is one of the many OTC transactions happening now, this one has chance to influence the market because price may be known publicly, but generally transaction of this size should be negligible and anyway the price will be close to the market in comparison with early adopters Wink. Talking about Satoshi's likely ~ 1 million BTC stash acquired at close to 0 cost would be a true bear talk, LOL.
lebing
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June 24, 2014, 03:15:09 PM
 #324




Thanks for the update Oda - and lol  Grin

Bro, do you even blockchain?
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windjc
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June 24, 2014, 07:35:53 PM
 #325

Can we make your post a sticky in this sub forum?  Or maybe we need a bumper sticker or something.  Like you, every time I hear someone say that these buyers are going to immediately dump their coins on exchanges, I feel like I'm trapped in that movie "Idiocracy."

Which simply means you don't understand how arbitrage works.


Which simply means you don't understand that HNW investors are not stupid troll day traders.

No, you're right of course. They clearly became HNW by being hodlors foreva ^__^ lol!!1!


In any case, believe what you want. I don't assume coins will be dumped after the auction either, but that's not the same as calling the idea that it might happen "idiotic".

Ummmm. It's pretty idiotic.
windjc
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June 24, 2014, 07:36:53 PM
 #326

Can we make your post a sticky in this sub forum?  Or maybe we need a bumper sticker or something.  Like you, every time I hear someone say that these buyers are going to immediately dump their coins on exchanges, I feel like I'm trapped in that movie "Idiocracy."

Which simply means you don't understand how arbitrage works.


Also, since the last 2 pages this thread has become a pointless bear circle-jerk.



Yes, neither me or Oda said they are going immediately to dump. I have no opinion on that.

I just do not see why buying above the market would be such a great opportunity for the institutional investors - there are many other opportunities to do it legally in US for large batches of btc, as I pointed out in the previous post.

EDIT: And why is saying that SR coins are not likely to sell above market a "bear talk"? It is one of the many OTC transactions happening now, this one has chance to influence the market because price may be known publicly, but generally transaction of this size should be negligible and anyway the price will be close to the market in comparison with early adopters Wink. Talking about Satoshi's likely ~ 1 million BTC stash acquired at close to 0 cost would be a true bear talk, LOL.

There's no advantage to buying above market. But it only takes 1 bid.

I'll be happy to take bets that we go above market.
Bitcoin_is_here_to_stay
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June 24, 2014, 07:51:06 PM
 #327

Can we make your post a sticky in this sub forum?  Or maybe we need a bumper sticker or something.  Like you, every time I hear someone say that these buyers are going to immediately dump their coins on exchanges, I feel like I'm trapped in that movie "Idiocracy."

Which simply means you don't understand how arbitrage works.


Also, since the last 2 pages this thread has become a pointless bear circle-jerk.



Yes, neither me or Oda said they are going immediately to dump. I have no opinion on that.

I just do not see why buying above the market would be such a great opportunity for the institutional investors - there are many other opportunities to do it legally in US for large batches of btc, as I pointed out in the previous post.

EDIT: And why is saying that SR coins are not likely to sell above market a "bear talk"? It is one of the many OTC transactions happening now, this one has chance to influence the market because price may be known publicly, but generally transaction of this size should be negligible and anyway the price will be close to the market in comparison with early adopters Wink. Talking about Satoshi's likely ~ 1 million BTC stash acquired at close to 0 cost would be a true bear talk, LOL.

There's no advantage to buying above market. But it only takes 1 bid.

I'll be happy to take bets that we go above market.

Ok, so we agree it does not make sense to overpay, you are just more pessimistic than me about the common sense of the bidders.

Do we know when the bids will be placed? I am not particularly interested in conditions of this auction so I have never researched it. If we would not have exact knowledge of the time bid was placed we may not even know if the bit was e.g. intentionally placed over market or end up that way, lol. Anyway, I am not interested in betting on it, either Wink.

BTW, some people on this forum say they would gladly pay 110% or 120% themselves for reasons they do not clarify Wink.
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June 24, 2014, 08:34:49 PM
 #328

I think the coins will go for a small premium.

Say I want to buy 3000 coins, I can buy that much on the exchanges and only push the price up to ~600. So I would place a bid for slightly lower than that.

Now, if there is an entity that wants to buy all 30,000, they would push up the price much higher than ~600 if they try to buy them on the exchanges. So they will bid higher.

I think all (or at least most) of the coins will go to a single entity for a small premium.
zimmah
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June 24, 2014, 09:26:13 PM
 #329

Noone is dumping on exchanges. In fact, its hard for me to comprehend the ignorance/stupidity of anyone who thinks someone is going to buy cheap from the government, transfer that money to an exchange and then try to sell for a profit. That's beyond imagination. These are serious buyers and players, not people/groups looking to go through the hassle to make maybe $5 a bitcoin profit on an illiquid exchange, where they couldn't sell that many coins anyway. Im getting stupidier just writing about this nonsense.

And the market will probably go up, simply because of a release of tension as to the outcome. Probably wont be sustained.

Although, I wouldn't be surprised if the markets has a semi-crash first.
Can we make your post a sticky in this sub forum?  Or maybe we need a bumper sticker or something.  Like you, every time I hear someone say that these buyers are going to immediately dump their coins on exchanges, I feel like I'm trapped in that movie "Idiocracy."

If the price goes down after the auction, it won't have anything to do with the buyers.  It will simply be troll whale traders just trying to use FUD to incite a panic in order to get cheaper coins.  Most likely a huge bear trap before the start of a run up.

Also, since the last 2 pages this thread has become a pointless bear circle-jerk.


Agreed, would be similar to people bidding on a confiscated yacht from a drug baron just for the sole purpose of instantly re-selling it for a nice markup.

Most people who by at an auction do not immediately resell, although they might intend to resell it later, when the value of the product improved (either by improving it yourself or by waiting for the market to appreciate the product more).
MatTheCat
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June 24, 2014, 10:08:25 PM
 #330

There's no advantage to buying above market. But it only takes 1 bid.

I'll be happy to take bets that we go above market.

Right there is no advantage as any Whale entity looking to build up a Bitcoin position will have access to channels of miner BTC which will be sold in large quantities at a discounted rate to any given market spot price. But should just one bidder take leave of their common sense and bid above spot price, then the BTC will indeed go for a premium.

The other argument against these coins going for a premium is that the Bitcoin market would be so easy for any entity with deep pockets to boss around like a bitch. They could use their market clout to create negative trading signals and push price down and keep it held down as they soak up batch upon batch of 'cheap(er)' Bitcoin. Perhaps this has already been happening? Perhaps it will happen to some extent between now and the auction on Friday?


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windjc
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June 24, 2014, 10:31:58 PM
 #331

There's no advantage to buying above market. But it only takes 1 bid.

I'll be happy to take bets that we go above market.

Right there is no advantage as any Whale entity looking to build up a Bitcoin position will have access to channels of miner BTC which will be sold in large quantities at a discounted rate to any given market spot price. But should just one bidder take leave of their common sense and bid above spot price, then the BTC will indeed go for a premium.

The other argument against these coins going for a premium is that the Bitcoin market would be so easy for any entity with deep pockets to boss around like a bitch. They could use their market clout to create negative trading signals and push price down and keep it held down as they soak up batch upon batch of 'cheap(er)' Bitcoin. Perhaps this has already been happening? Perhaps it will happen to some extent between now and the auction on Friday?



You don't know this. Show proof.

And...do you want to bet on it?
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June 24, 2014, 10:43:35 PM
 #332

You don't know this. Show proof.

And...do you want to bet on it?

I don't know this and I have no proof....

.....but I have seen miners going on UK LocalBitcoins selling BTC at around 5% below Bitstamp, but with the minimum trade size being 10K GBP.

Kraken Account, Robbed/Emptied. Kraken say "Fuck you, its your loss": https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1559553.msg15656643#msg15656643

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June 25, 2014, 12:05:06 AM
 #333

In normal countries that's exactly what would happen. Grin The confiscated goods sold to right people, for half price, and dumped to market immediately. The wrong bidders won't take part in the auction because they failed to fill application forms correctly or something like this. But US is not quite normal country (yet  Grin), so I don't really know.

Fairplay medal of dnaleor's trading simulator. Smiley
windjc
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June 25, 2014, 01:17:29 AM
 #334

You don't know this. Show proof.

And...do you want to bet on it?

I don't know this and I have no proof....

.....but I have seen miners going on UK LocalBitcoins selling BTC at around 5% below Bitstamp, but with the minimum trade size being 10K GBP.

Good grief. 95% of all bitcoins sell for a premium on LocalBitcoins.

This is as good as you got?
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June 25, 2014, 01:33:33 AM
 #335


Good grief. 95% of all bitcoins sell for a premium on LocalBitcoins.

This is as good as you got?

Indeed they do. Which is why it was all the more telling that this chap (with a lot of Bitcoins to sell) was selling these coins at a rebate (the opposite of a premium) for those with deep enough pockets to stump a minimum of 10K. The '5%' thing is a number I am just putting in cos I don't remember the exact amount. I do remember kicking myself that all my liquidity was on Stamp and that I wasn't in a position to take advantage of it.....I could have just flipped them right away in lower quantities on LocalBitcoins itself for a tidy profit.

Kraken Account, Robbed/Emptied. Kraken say "Fuck you, its your loss": https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1559553.msg15656643#msg15656643

Bitfinex victims. DO NOT TOUCH THE BFX TOKEN! Start moving it around, or trading it, and you will be construed as having accepted it as an alternative means of payment to your USD, BTC, etc.
Bitcoin_is_here_to_stay
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June 25, 2014, 02:18:59 AM
 #336


Good grief. 95% of all bitcoins sell for a premium on LocalBitcoins.

This is as good as you got?

Indeed they do. Which is why it was all the more telling that this chap (with a lot of Bitcoins to sell) was selling these coins at a rebate (the opposite of a premium) for those with deep enough pockets to stump a minimum of 10K. The '5%' thing is a number I am just putting in cos I don't remember the exact amount. I do remember kicking myself that all my liquidity was on Stamp and that I wasn't in a position to take advantage of it.....I could have just flipped them right away in lower quantities on LocalBitcoins itself for a tidy profit.

Or perhaps he was a scammer?
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June 25, 2014, 01:54:57 PM
 #337

In normal countries that's exactly what would happen. Grin The confiscated goods sold to right people, for half price, and dumped to market immediately. The wrong bidders won't take part in the auction because they failed to fill application forms correctly or something like this. But US is not quite normal country (yet  Grin), so I don't really know.

I guess if your "normal" is hilariously, overtly corrupt, then sure.

In America, we like to keep our corruption slightly more opaque.

Bro, do you even blockchain?
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June 27, 2014, 03:11:44 PM
Last edit: June 27, 2014, 10:34:11 PM by oda.krell
 #338

Why I'm still long as a default position: fib levels and the uptrend so far


Okay, time for another "serious" TA post, after a bit of a break. I've been asked a few times if, and why, I'm still long currently, despite the recent price action and uncertainty about the near future.

I should mention that I did make a small number of trades during this swing (since the June 1 peak), but they were all purely momentum based, when it became very clear that a move down was picking up speed. However, perhaps the most important question for a swing trader is "what is your default position", i.e. whether you take profits in USD or BTC (in this market). For me, that default position is  BTC currently, and I'll explain why in a moment.

First, though, let me clearly say what I am NOT going to argue for: a meteoric rise in the near future. Here's what I wrote (a bit too angrily maybe) in another thread, where someone posted another one of those "$10,000 USD next year" predictions:

Stop with the TO DA MOON projection bullshit, bulls. That's my opinion.

My patience is starting to wear thin.

2014 is starting to look like 2011/2012: time for the network to grow, services to develop, the community to grow, etc. And price, to, well, stagnate a bit.

Don't think that's true? I don't give a fuck, we all make our bets accordingly (some sold, sold are holding, some are buying more), but whatever you decided to do, the desperate repetition of those "$10,000/$100,000 next month/year" threads is getting ridiculous.

If price really goes up that much, that fast, we will notice, I'm sure. Until then, work to improve the network in your own ways.

(And I realize that this is what Blitz has been saying for close to 6 months now. Good guy.)

Note please: I don't completely rule out another parabolic rally later this year, but I'm far from sure it'll happen. In fact, I'm slightly more inclined to think the next ATH rally will only happen next year at the earliest, and probably not to a "moon" number like $10k, but more likely a doubling or so of the previous ATH, which would still be extremely impressive.

But none of that matters right now. I'm simply trying to figure out if, right now, it makes sense to sell (to protect the USD value of your position), or whether the mid term direction is more likely to be up.

* * *

My analysis is based on the following two premises. You don't need to agree with them, but if you don't, you probably won't see much value in the argument I'm going to present.

1) $340 was, most likely, the capitulation bottom of the 2013/2014 bear market.

2) The period following the bear market, now, will be somewhat "reluctant" in moving up, with long periods of stagnation and possibly some serious setbacks.

I have argued previously why I believe 1) holds, won't repeat that now. I believe point 2) holds mainly for the following reasons: a) because the bear market was a lot more crushing than for example the short recovery period after the April 2013 ATH, b) because there were a few seriously disturbing news/developments that the market is still recovering from, mainly: mtgox, and uncertainty about China, and finally c) because no new "market explosion event" has taken place yet, that brings in an abundance of new fiat.

Examples of point c) are for example China entering the market big time in the 2nd half of 2013. What an event like that could look like now is, for example, the approval and listing of one of the ETFs, a new "serious" exchange backed by "old money" that brings in new types of investors, or a large enough country suddenly developing a taste for investing and/or using Bitcoin.

Those are the premises, on which my following technical arguments rest. In other words, I assume, from point 1), that we are in principle moving upwards, from point 2) that this is only going to proceed slowly.


Fib comparison #1

The longer historical comparison.

First graph shows the immediate recovery after the extremely crushing 2011 bear market. After the bottom of around $2, the first swing up ended at around $7. Then followed a retracement of that swing to 50%, where it stayed a long time, with and additional spike even deeper to the 62% fib level.





Next, the recovery after the July 2013 bottom at $63. Swing up to $100, followed by retracement to, you guessed it, 50%, and a spike to 62%. Now, to be clear: the recovery in mid 2013 was a lot smoother than what I expect to see now, but at least in terms of fib levels, we tested those two then as well.





Finally, our current view. The situation looks a lot different because of the intermediate period (after the assumed $340 bottom) in May, but from my perspective, what matters is how far we have progressed from that bottom. And as you can see, in today's situation we're not even near a 50%, let alone a 62% retracement. Which is why I'm not really worried yet.





Fib comparison #2

The next is pretty much a fractal view of the above. Let's compare the May consolidation period to the current one. After the $548 peak, most of May 2014 saw a period mostly of stagnation, that touched (surprise) 50% and 62% fib levels again.





Which is precisely where we are now again, in terms of fib levels.






The recovery so far

Here's another way to look at it. The following graph is a series of the intermediate highs and lows so far. Since the $340 bottom, we can see that a series of higher highs and higher lows is forming, in other words, an uptrend.





Marked in yellow is the range that could invalidate that picture. If price falls below the previous low of $538 on June 14, I won't automatically assume that we're back in a bear market, but it will be a sign for me to start questioning my default position. Should we hit, and break through, ~$530, what matters then is how price behaves afterwards wrt to the fib levels I've mentioned above. But that's another post, should it come to that.

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June 27, 2014, 03:45:10 PM
 #339

You list 'market explosion' events such as an ETF being approved or a new 'serious' exchange popping up. We know these things will happen in the remainder of 2014, so why do you say a new ATH rally will not take place until at least next year?
oda.krell (OP)
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June 27, 2014, 03:52:56 PM
 #340

You list 'market explosion' events such as an ETF being approved or a new 'serious' exchange popping up. We know these things will happen in the remainder of 2014, so why do you say a new ATH rally will not take place until at least next year?

I only know that more than one ETF has been under consideration for some time now. If and when it gets approved, we will see whether it does in fact lead to another 'explosion event' or not.

Keep in mind, there were almost 2 years between the 2011 ATH and the next one, so having to wait for a bit more than year to get to the next one (especially after seeing two in quick succession in 2013) isn't exactly a gloomy prediction.

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