BTCjam - Any Thoughts or Experiances

[BTCJamSupport]

My issue is with your screening process on the borrowers you have listed for us. To me it appears if it is not just about collecting fees then your exposing us (the lenders) to these bad risks looks like you are not doing your do diligence.

Completely understandable and something that we are working really hard on right now. You may have noticed that we have a much smaller marketplace right now - Why? We want to make sure that we bring investors higher quality borrowers and be very selective about who we bring onto the marketplace. With that we are amping up the screening process and making sure we do a better job there to insure that we can limit losses.

How long have you been around with us out of curiosity?

[BTCJamSupport]

More evidence that they are actually working and trying to make BTCJam a better place for investors.


(...)

More important will be to see what they do about big US scammers that must be easy to identify and take to court like these guys:

Oppenheimer89

This guy has 2 loans with a total over 50 BTC

https://btcjam.com/listings/45490-stock-trading-capital and https://btcjam.com/listings/46587-bitcoin-based-localbitcoins-com-trading

His localbitcoins profile: https://localbitcoins.com/accounts/profile/oppenheimer89/

and this guy that already was sent to arbitration:

therealmaxwell

https://btcjam.com/listings/41307

I already received his details and since he's a fucking scammer I'll post here:

Debtor's name, last known address, and other information is:

 Paul Maxwell

 6016 Allington Ct

 Winston Salem, NC 27104

 maxggw@gmail.com

 https://www.facebook.com/TheRealMaxwell

 Phone: (617) 784-0064

 Driver's License 11MLP84021

I won't chase this fucker for $20 but if you live next door don't forget to say hi for me!

 

Can you please comment on these US high profile scammers?

If they are in US they are very easy for you to catch if you want!

This is crucial for a wannabe investor.

Yes, please tell us what you intend to do with these big scammers.

Are you taking any action?

These guys are in US, they stole significant amounts, so if you want to prove that litigation works for this business model I don't see a better place to start.

It would not be ok to send your investors to litigate all by themselves and then take actions that indicate that you don't believe in the process.

 

You might want to do some homework about how a company collects and the legal frameworks that need to be accomplished if you think this is an easy task. If it was easy, you'd see many companies doing this.

We are always looking into ways we can do this in the future. Not sure what you know about collections process but it is very difficult to do this as a company. There are many legal hurdles that we'd need to accomplish in order to do this and I'm not so sure we are going to be able to do this right now. Would we want to collect for you guys? Yes. Is it something that we think about and try to figure out? Yes. Is is something that gets done in a week? Sadly not.

[Paul Revere]

You might want to do some homework about how a company collects and the legal frameworks that need to be accomplished if you think this is an easy task. If it was easy, you'd see many companies doing this.

We are always looking into ways we can do this in the future. Not sure what you know about collections process but it is very difficult to do this as a company. There are many legal hurdles that we'd need to accomplish in order to do this and I'm not so sure we are going to be able to do this right now. Would we want to collect for you guys? Yes. Is it something that we think about and try to figure out? Yes. Is is something that gets done in a week? Sadly not.

So, you are saying BTCjam is basically helpless when it comes to collecting on bad loans that were approved by BTCjam. Are those two things not what you are getting paid to do? IF not those two things, what exactly are you getting paid for?

[BTCJamSupport]

How does BTCjam compare to the new Bitlend.io P2P trading platform? Bitlend.io is headed by D. Allen Shinners , the leader of the 400+ person GAW suit AND at the same time he is partnered up with some of the GAW staff that implemented that fraud scheme. I am NOT making this up. Seriously. He says that it is fine because they have "not been convicted of anything". In relation to the comments about the bad investments the borrowers on BTCjam make, Bitlend is taking that a step further and steering the loans specifically at the Paycoiners. So, they are taking BTC from people who have some and lending it to people who are likely to buy Paycoins, which the guys running Bitlend including central figures of the Paycoin scam operation: Joe Mordica & Adam Matlack, ( I kid you not!) own the vast majority of (got for free) and also have control of most of the Fraud Controllers , so they can shit out some Paycoins real fast after they line up a loan to some dumbass Paycoiner and "fill his order". HA HAHHHA HA! Woooo!

This is what Bitlend has lined up. Not that this would be all of their loans, but this chain below does exist, and the fact is that they are shilling this thing hardcore on the Paycoiner forums and pretty much nowhere else.

Step 1 : Find people with BTC (here mostly).
Step 2 : Find Paycoiners on the forums you run: Paycointalk GetHashing and Hashclub, who are mezmerized by the fraudcoin you own an infinite supply of, all gotten for free of course.
Step 3 : Bring these two together and arrange a loan. Take a nice fat cut up front! Crack a fucking beer and smile!
Step 4 : Wait for the Paycoined borrower to gleefully take his borrowed BTC over to Cryptsy. Dump free Paycons into his Buy Bid the moment it pops up, or perhaps steer him into a HYIP or other operation that you are running or have a big cut of.
Step 5 : A month later, the value of Paycoin or the other "investment" has tanked, and loan is defaulted upon.
Step 6 : Turn real world collection agencies loose on the dumbass Paycoiner that got conned into a loan. Snicker heartily!
Step 7 : Act like you're sorry for steering the BTC holder into a bad (rigged!) loan where he lost most or all of his BTC, which of course went into YOUR POCKET!!!
Step 8 : Do the Homero Garza Scam Dance!


Disclaimer : It is not being suggested that Josh Garza is part of Bitlend, just some of the guys that worked for him and "somehow" ended up with all of the Paycoins for free and run all of the little shitstain "services" for Paycoin are.

Yeeeeee HAW! Quite the fucking dealio , eh? BTCLend (Carmelo Milian John Tuberosi and Josh Garza operation) was similar to this, except it's first use was to lock up Paycoin bags so good dumpage could continue , paying like 20%/year stake when their dumpage was tanking the price of Paycoin 50-70% per MONTH! And then they started targeting BTC loans at the Paycoined and of course giving prference to those that say they will buy either Paycoins or "invest" in the ScryptCC Ponzi, which was rumored to have the garza stench on it. Whatever the case was with their cut of ScytCC is unknown,but the fact is a large amount of the BTCLend loans (now ALL tanking en masse with the collapse of ScryptCC) were steered to this obvious Ponzi.  The Paycoiners were all giddy and sure that by doubling down in the ScryptCC Ponzi after getting hardcore ripped off with the  Paycoin scam they would be RICH!. Shocking that it didn't work out...

Is there anything of this sort going on with BTCjam? With BTCLend and now Bitlend it is slap you HARD in the face obvious what they are doing. At least Carmelo Milian was smart enough to not strap Joe Mordica (devd for BTCLend) to the hood of his operation !

Hey Paul,

We're backed by some top Bitcoin VC firms in the valley, have been around for 3+ years and have facilitated close to 15M in loan volume. What you wrote was an interesting read but the short answer is NO. Nothing of this sort is going on. Keep up the scam watch, I think its important for those joining the BTC community - but no, we're not involved in any way shape or form with what you wrote above.

Cheers!

[Paul Revere]

Fascinating read, old chap. Care to share any proof to back up what you are saying? And I don't mean an "Appeal to Authority" type of logical fallacy like saying you have bigshots behind you, therefore you are legitimate. Sorry, that is simply a non-starter.

[BTCJamSupport]

My issue is with your screening process on the borrowers you have listed for us. To me it appears if it is not just about collecting fees then your exposing us (the lenders) to these bad risks looks like you are not doing your do diligence.

The credit rating system over there is laughable. Case in point, take a look at this loan: https://btcjam.com/listings/49296-credit-card-debt---trusted-borrower-

A- Rating on the loan given by BTCJam let's go through the specifics:

late on 12 of 20 payments on loans prior
0 equity in the site - 100% debt, no investments in other listings
this loan is by a multiple larger than any of his previous loans
borrower takes out a loan for credit card debt but does not verify a credit card. hmm, i wonder why that would be?
borrower's prior loans are for repayment of student debt, fix transmission on a car, and security deposit on a rental unit.

think about that last item for a second. assuming he's telling the truth, we know:
1. he has additional debt on top of his monstrous credit card debt,
2. his car is a pos,
3. and he doesn't own real property.

what does that mean?

he's judgment proof. i.e. it means he's broke, he has no assets. so, in the event that he does likely default, and a borrower wishes to try and recoup, they'll get nowhere, because the guy, while he might not be a scammer, clearly does not have the means to pay these loans off. if it goes to court, there will likely be nothing to liquidate to pay off the loans because he owns no assets. thus, judgment proof. THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE.

these are your A- listings at BTCJam folks.

so, if you're on the conservative auto invest, these are the types of loans that btcjam puts you in. loans that that no reputable financial agency or lender would consider "A-."

so what happens when btcjam negligently (although much more likely, recklessly, worst case, fraudulently) assigns these A- ratings to people who would otherwise get laughed out of a loan office or bank?

some poor sap, with no chance of ever seeing a dime of this money should this loan go into default, kicks the guy 18+BTC. don't get me wrong, i'm not about protecting people from themselves. and what is that about a fool and their money? my sympathy is muted. however, if jam is going to post these ratings, they owe it to the people who use the site to back these ratings with some sort of credible criteria. to echo the point above, it's like they're throwing darts at a wall, although cynics might think that they're purposefully pumping up these ratings to get people to invest because listings for borrowers has dropped off precipitously. clearly the 18+BTC sap was not expecting this payment to be late as evidenced by his numerous consecutive comments on the listing. maybe if jam had put some thought into their credit rating it could have given some users a second thought before investing so much, when they are clearly not in a position to invest such amounts in what in reality is a very risky loan to a very risky borrower. but as it stands, there is no counterbalance to some of these so called respected lenders who post crap on the site like they know a borrower is trustworthy because they spew BS about being late on payments better than some other late borrower.

bottom line, if for whatever reason, you do feel the need to invest in BTCJam, NEVER trust a rating on BTCJam. rating methodology has not been released and likely never will because, apparently, there is none. NEVER trust other investors who invest in these loans. they have just as much knowledge, and very possibly, less expertise than you, and the folks at jam, at assessing risk.

peace.

http://imgur.com/VwrOV6z

Where that data came from - https://btcjam.com/stats

Those are actual returns when following the credit ratings. We put a lot of thought into the credit rating, that is why the statistics speak for themselves. I don't know why anyone would make decisions based off other investors.

Every investor is different in the way they invest and their level of risk. I think its fair to say that every investor should do their own research. We never stated that you should follow the other investors on the site as many have different risk built into their strategy that wouldnt work for everyone. We also encourage diversification more so than throwing all your btc into one basket. I think you have a good idea of this given that you looked so hard into this borrower.

The reason AutoInvest exists is to throw very small amounts of BTC into very many listings, a set it and forget it approach for using the site. It's a good way to diversify across the marketplace at very small increments with loss/risk already built in.

[BTCJamSupport]

I am following these threads and I am confused I have lots of btc on this site, am I hearing that BTCjam is going to help us get our investments back?

No they don't give a shit, they got there Fee's already so why should they care?

The whole we got our fees thing is getting pretty old. As I mentioned a few times already, fees dont make this business sustainable alone. This whole idea is ridiculous.

actually you did not improve your System in the Past 6 Month. Examples wanted?

a) your Fee System is still ridic, you charge 5% for a Listing( it should be more 0.5%) and you are asking 5% for listing a Note (remember the Reason for Listing a Note is usaly that the Shit hits the Fan...)
b)Verify of Bank for non US Customer still not possible. (i mean how hard, can it to setup that?...)
c) the Reference System is a Joke, it should be much more influenced by the one who vouch for you, i mean 10 Facebook friend that give a reference for you, that mean nothing... someone who has a positive Rating in BTCjam or other lending site, that is a reference.

In general you are squezing the fruit, but there are very little improvements overall.

A) Most of the involvement in notes is actually those looking to liquidate their investment - meaning they are growing impatient (on an already current borrower aka is not late what so ever) and might want to get btc for other investments or need it elsewhere. Those notes move pretty quick in and out of the secondary marketplace so maybe you dont see them as much? 4% is the fee - but to answer your question we are thinking about changing that.

B) Have you ever looked into setting this up for a business worldwide? Im guessing the answer is no because their really arent many companies that service the world for this. There are about 2 and they arent that good... The answer is - yes it is very hard to set that up.

C) What you are referring to is ratings -- we have that for those who invested who want to rate a borrower/lender. So technically this is just another part separate from references.

[BTCJamSupport]

Are there patterns in what the borrowers who get inflated ratings are investing in? For example: If an investor states he is interested in a certain "Cloud Miner" (aka Ponzi- and ya I know there are maybe a couple of legit CMs) does he get his rating kicked up so it gets funded by auto investors?

Can you provide more detail about this Im sure not sure I understand the question? Thanks

[Paul Revere]

Are there patterns in what the borrowers who get inflated ratings are investing in? For example: If an investor states he is interested in a certain "Cloud Miner" (aka Ponzi- and ya I know there are maybe a couple of legit CMs) does he get his rating kicked up so it gets funded by auto investors?

Can you provide more detail about this Im sure not sure I understand the question? Thanks

Has anyone done a count on what borrowers who have received what seem to be abnormally high credit ratings list as their need for the loan? Is there a pattern? Are there certain "investments" listed by borrowers that seem to result in them getting an abnormally high credit rating?

[BTCJamSupport]

I am following these threads and I am confused I have lots of btc on this site, am I hearing that BTCjam is going to help us get our investments back?

No they don't give a shit, they got there Fee's already so why should they care?

The whole we got our fees thing is getting pretty old. As I mentioned a few times already, fees dont make this business sustainable alone. This whole idea is ridiculous.

Actually, no it's not. It's a very legitimate concern and will eventually come back to haunt you and your colleagues on your BS business practices.

The whole incentive structure at BTCJam is warped. Jam receives their fee once a loan is funded, paid for by the lenders.

BTCJam are not lenders. They provide a platform, and this fee is paid for by the lenders, not the borrowers. The way the fee structure is set up is such that Jam maximizes their profitability when borrowers have the most loans funded.  NOT when borrowers repay the loans. They have no interest in providing credible credit ratings, and to actually expend funds to do research to provide such ratings reduces BTCJam's profitability.

If you are a lender in BTCJam be well aware:

YOU ARE NOT OUTSOURCING ANY CREDIT RESEARCH OR RISK ASSESSMENT TO BTCJAM. THEIR FEE STRUCTURE IS SET UP SUCH THAT THEY GAIN THE MOST WHEN THE MOST LOANS ARE FUNDED. NOT WHEN LOANS ARE PAID OFF. THEY HAVE AN INCENTIVE TO GET AS MANY LOANS FUNDED AS POSSIBLE. TO ACTUALLY EXPEND RESOURCES TO PROVIDE ACCURATE CREDIT RATINGS OR SEE LOANS PAID OFF, LIKE ACTUAL LENDERS, REDUCES BTCJAM'S PROFITABILITY.

One day, someone smarter than you or myself is going to figure out a way to make this work, and they're going to put you and your ilk out on the fucking street.

EDIT TO ADD:

If you don't believe me, ask a BTCJam employee to enlighten you on how they apply credit ratings. See how far that question gets you.

Also, BTCSupport does not even attempt to dispute the claim from the poster who addressed such concerns. Maybe BTCSupport is right, the fee system does not make the business sustainable alone. But then, the question remains how do they make money or keep the business sustainable? They certainly do not profit from loans being paid off. Hmmm.

We currently approve under 10% of the listings sent to us daily. If we wanted to make money on fees, this is a good way to not accomplish that. I've given comment to this theory a few times and it goes like this...

1. Bad loans = investors losses.
2. investor losses = no investors
3. no investors = no marketplace
4. no marketplace = no company! no fees! no nothing!

If you read throughout this thread Ive actually answered this very claim time and time again and just did it again for you here ^^. It's not a way to build a great business and fees arent what make us a great company. Investor returns & quality borrowers are.

Money - we raised an A round in December. That usually helps!

How do we apply the credit ratings? We apply credit ratings in a lot of different ways. Because that is one of the coolest aspects of our company, Id rather not get into it. You dont see CocaCola and Pepsi swapping recipes publicly right?

[BTCJamSupport]

Are there patterns in what the borrowers who get inflated ratings are investing in? For example: If an investor states he is interested in a certain "Cloud Miner" (aka Ponzi- and ya I know there are maybe a couple of legit CMs) does he get his rating kicked up so it gets funded by auto investors?

You are just fishing there.   The problem is simply once BTCjam collects their fees they don't really have any skin in the game.   That is bad for the the investors that have nothing but skin in the game.   Coupled with the fact that the advice pushed by BTCjam is just plain bad for investors and good for people trying to pull off scams.  

You can make BTC at their site, but it involves a lot of effort and time.  

You missed the entire point of that post, but then I would not expect anything else from you. Since you were incapable of figuring it out, the point is this: Is it possible that BTCjam is funneling loans into "operations" of which they operate/have a cut of/ receive a kickback from ? BTCLend seems to have done this in a HUGE way, and now the new Bitlend operation may be doing the same as well.

We arent a ponzi - I know you are doing your homework but if you search BTCjam on the internets you'll see a lot of publicly available information.

[BTCJamSupport]

Are there patterns in what the borrowers who get inflated ratings are investing in? For example: If an investor states he is interested in a certain "Cloud Miner" (aka Ponzi- and ya I know there are maybe a couple of legit CMs) does he get his rating kicked up so it gets funded by auto investors?

Can you provide more detail about this Im sure not sure I understand the question? Thanks

Has anyone done a count on what borrowers who have received what seem to be abnormally high credit ratings list as their need for the loan? Is there a pattern? Are there certain "investments" listed by borrowers that seem to result in them getting an abnormally high credit rating?

Credit ratings aren't determined by what a borrower wants or classifies his loan basis on solely.

[BTCJamSupport]

Fascinating read, old chap. Care to share any proof to back up what you are saying? And I don't mean an "Appeal to Authority" type of logical fallacy like saying you have bigshots behind you, therefore you are legitimate. Sorry, that is simply a non-starter.

Google us. That's usually a good start.

[Paul Revere]

Well played, sir, Well played indeed.   Thank you for kindly answering my questions, good sir. That is how a company is supposed to handle tough questions with tact.

I have seen BTCLend seemingly engage in the loan "rigging/preference" that I mentioned, as well as what is developing with Bitlend.io, which is looking shady as all get out now, and I was not expecting to see that at all.

P.S: For a textbook example of how not to handle Public Relations when trying to run a business based on trust, check out the Bitlend.io launch thread here. One of the principals of Bitlend.io, Jason Sponaugle (aka "masteryoshi" to the Paycoiners) created a new shill account named "simdude" and created the thread posing as a satisfied customer. Then Michael J. Koerner (Korfax) jumped in to tag team with the "satisfied customer" to generate some false confidence in Bitlend.  It went downhill pretty quickly after that genius level move and has since gone completely off a cliff Wile E. Coyote style. Cringe worthy. Now Bitlend has gone full radio silent and refuses to answer any questions at all. Amazing.

[tommorisonwebdesign]

I think a lending website that works on the concept of trusting nobody except reputable escrows. The amount of borrowers of your website who are con artists is staggering. In addition, I think a social lending website should be able to develop a mechanism that enables the sale of ownership of debts. Any information would be provided and a good hacker/detective can probably recover a purchased debt. There is far too much leverage for borrowers on BTCJam.

[knowhow]

Btjam is just the way to scam who have some pennies and dont know what to do ,the interest atracts most and usually they get burned.Sure they made the reputation but well someone told me before some user of high reputation has scammed for 4 btc ,soo lend money to someone that you dont know without any protection is the same at go into the street and open the wallet take the money and say take it pay me when you can.No advice to use this or any other similiar project without some colateral option into lending.

[BitcoinGB1106]

Perfect example of support for BTCJam. I post about an issue I'm having that needs resolved, and they instead argue with a user on bitcointalk.

Great help you have been BTCJam! Have had my loan funded and available to withdraw for 8 days now, and can't get support to change my email address so I can do so.

[knowhow]

Btcjam allows some projects to get real with the support of unknow people,sure there is some honest people and some projects are great and worth the investment but the risk to support others projects is huge.

[Livery42]

Hi

I can't withdraw my loan from btcjam it's "jammed"with a withdraw error.
they say they wil look into it but now i'm just paying intrest for money i can't use!

they are scamming the borrows first second.

So BTCjam how do you coup with these kind of business?

[Livery42]

Problem is now fixed and btcjam made a adjustment in payment day for the hours lost in paying interest for money you can't touch.

Thumbs up me happy again.