BTCjam - Any Thoughts or Experiances

[BTCJamSupport]

Please explain the new BTCJam Debt Collection.

Why is it buying partial in some loans and total debt in others?

At this moment I dont have much to say because we are currently testing a few different things with regards to collections. When we get a better idea and learn more about these early programs. Thanks for asking though, we do look forward to making some improvements in these areas.

[jadefalke]

I am from Turkey,
and it is not possible to verify my credit card and my bank,
BtcJam should work on that, Not all the people live in USA or Brasil

We are working on that daily. It is a complicated issue as getting international service for everyone is really difficult, we have to prioritize a bit in some ways here but we'll try to get more options up for you guys soon. Thanks for the feedback.

as far as i can see, NOTHING has been done here during the last 12 Month. Can you outline how the Roadmap look like for the Major non US Countrys?

[jadefalke]

I am from Turkey,
and it is not possible to verify my credit card and my bank,
BtcJam should work on that, Not all the people live in USA or Brasil

the ridic fact about that is, we have to pay more % since we don't get B+ or A Rating because of Missing Credit Card Verification.

[BTCJamSupport]

I am from Turkey,
and it is not possible to verify my credit card and my bank,
BtcJam should work on that, Not all the people live in USA or Brasil

the ridic fact about that is, we have to pay more % since we don't get B+ or A Rating because of Missing Credit Card Verification.

Yes, we know that hurts international guys and it's why we are looking at other options. We are thinking about this daily and are testing new services/connections daily to try to configure a process that would help intl borrowers. Tricky thing is that services that offer such an integration dont have a lot of international coverage to date. The ones that are best in the industry (that also pass our security tests) generally dont have the coverage in international countries that would really help our borrowers. Turkey for example, is a very tough country to cover with the above being said. I know it can be frustrating with the ratings on the side, that is one reason that we limited both the bank and CC to give you guys a fairer assessment.

[Kanati]

I think a lending website that works on the concept of trusting nobody except reputable escrows. The amount of borrowers of your website who are con artists is staggering. In addition, I think a social lending website should be able to develop a mechanism that enables the sale of ownership of debts. Any information would be provided and a good hacker/detective can probably recover a purchased debt. There is far too much leverage for borrowers on BTCJam.

Appreciate the feedback. We are working hard on getting great borrowers & I think over our growth we have made advancements here. Fraud rates are down which is good thing. As blockchain tools/services keep growing I think one day something you mentioned might be possible.

It would be more fair to us investors if a portion of the fees that BTCjam collects went to an insurance fund that would refund the principal on our investments in the event of borrower default. It would also likely improve motivation for borrower screening and debt collection if BTCjam assumes some risk by having skin in the game.

Having a marketplace as a business is having complete skin in the game.. If the marketplace isn't good, rates arent good, borrowers arent good 0 we lose - it is a very simple theory. It's out business, Im not sure we could have more skin in the game than that. Screening is something that we are working very hard on to delivery better practices and lower defaults across the board.

I will grant you that a good business reputation has value, but judging from the amount of negative feedback on this forum from burned lenders, I would say that BTCjam has at minimum a skin rash problem . Equating the dings and dents to your business reputation to what lenders are losing in cash to defaults is begging the question of how to prevent defaults in the first place. Basically all you are saying here is that BTCjam is working really really really hard to lower the amount of defaults, and by implication that we lenders should trust you because you are working really really really hard on this (would also be interested in seeing some statistics on the number of BTCjam defaults and how much debt has been lost and recovered b.t.w.).

As a lender I would personally feel more secure about investing if I knew that the company doing the screening is working transparently and has more than just its already damaged reputation at stake. 

We are working towards lowering defaults, that is part of the business in many ways. Being transparent about screening is tricky because we are then providing a lot of details about how we screen etc. Not sure that is the best idea at this time, but your comments are noted. We are trialling out some different collection methods/tools but aren't at a point to comment about that any more at this time. Thanks for sharing this.

Out of the 12 Brazilian loans I have made since September...

• 5 are paying on time
• 5 have not made the first payment
• 2 remain to be seen (first payment not due yet)

Looks like we are headed for minimum 50% default rate on Brazilian loans 

Adding insult to injury is the fact that investors in BTCjam fiat backed loans are now getting massacred by a 100% spike in Bitcoin rates since September (that's a 90% loss of principal for a 10% loan - BTCjam is able to rate the borrowers and determine "fair" loan interest for them risk free, since BTCjam collects their fees up front when investors fund the loan).

Is BTCjam some sort of stealth philanthropy project for Brazilian borrowers or WTF?!?

[BTCJamSupport]

I think a lending website that works on the concept of trusting nobody except reputable escrows. The amount of borrowers of your website who are con artists is staggering. In addition, I think a social lending website should be able to develop a mechanism that enables the sale of ownership of debts. Any information would be provided and a good hacker/detective can probably recover a purchased debt. There is far too much leverage for borrowers on BTCJam.

Appreciate the feedback. We are working hard on getting great borrowers & I think over our growth we have made advancements here. Fraud rates are down which is good thing. As blockchain tools/services keep growing I think one day something you mentioned might be possible.

It would be more fair to us investors if a portion of the fees that BTCjam collects went to an insurance fund that would refund the principal on our investments in the event of borrower default. It would also likely improve motivation for borrower screening and debt collection if BTCjam assumes some risk by having skin in the game.

Having a marketplace as a business is having complete skin in the game.. If the marketplace isn't good, rates arent good, borrowers arent good 0 we lose - it is a very simple theory. It's out business, Im not sure we could have more skin in the game than that. Screening is something that we are working very hard on to delivery better practices and lower defaults across the board.

I will grant you that a good business reputation has value, but judging from the amount of negative feedback on this forum from burned lenders, I would say that BTCjam has at minimum a skin rash problem . Equating the dings and dents to your business reputation to what lenders are losing in cash to defaults is begging the question of how to prevent defaults in the first place. Basically all you are saying here is that BTCjam is working really really really hard to lower the amount of defaults, and by implication that we lenders should trust you because you are working really really really hard on this (would also be interested in seeing some statistics on the number of BTCjam defaults and how much debt has been lost and recovered b.t.w.).

As a lender I would personally feel more secure about investing if I knew that the company doing the screening is working transparently and has more than just its already damaged reputation at stake. 

We are working towards lowering defaults, that is part of the business in many ways. Being transparent about screening is tricky because we are then providing a lot of details about how we screen etc. Not sure that is the best idea at this time, but your comments are noted. We are trialling out some different collection methods/tools but aren't at a point to comment about that any more at this time. Thanks for sharing this.

Out of the 12 Brazilian loans I have made since September...

• 5 are paying on time
• 5 have not made the first payment
• 2 remain to be seen (first payment not due yet)

Looks like we are headed for minimum 50% default rate on Brazilian loans 

Adding insult to injury is the fact that investors in BTCjam fiat backed loans are now getting massacred by a 100% spike in Bitcoin rates since September (that's a 90% loss of principal for a 10% loan - BTCjam is able to rate the borrowers and determine "fair" loan interest for them risk free, since BTCjam collects their fees up front when investors fund the loan).

Is BTCjam some sort of stealth philanthropy project for Brazilian borrowers or WTF?!?

Can you PM me an alias so I can check this out in more depth? Quite frankly we have more and more Brazilian borrowers and 12 listings is a very small sample size but I'd be more than happen to look into this and see what is going on, thanks!

[jadefalke]

I am from Turkey,
and it is not possible to verify my credit card and my bank,
BtcJam should work on that, Not all the people live in USA or Brasil

the ridic fact about that is, we have to pay more % since we don't get B+ or A Rating because of Missing Credit Card Verification.

Yes, we know that hurts international guys and it's why we are looking at other options. We are thinking about this daily and are testing new services/connections daily to try to configure a process that would help intl borrowers. Tricky thing is that services that offer such an integration dont have a lot of international coverage to date. The ones that are best in the industry (that also pass our security tests) generally dont have the coverage in international countries that would really help our borrowers. Turkey for example, is a very tough country to cover with the above being said. I know it can be frustrating with the ratings on the side, that is one reason that we limited both the bank and CC to give you guys a fairer assessment.

Sorry to be a bit pushy, but that is total Bullshit. To verify Bank Accounts and Credit Cards in Europe is more than easy. There are enough Companys that offer this Service. If they don't meet your Privacy Level, do it on your own! SEPA Verification via 0.01 Euro Transaction is quite easy. For Credit Cards also the same, EVERY Hotel uses a Credit Card validation System to see if your Card is legit and you cannot do that?
There are enough Solutions, you had already enough Time, do something!
You Guys are charging 5% Service Fee per Loan! (btw. i'm the only one who think that this is ridic high?)

[BTCJamSupport]

I am from Turkey,
and it is not possible to verify my credit card and my bank,
BtcJam should work on that, Not all the people live in USA or Brasil

the ridic fact about that is, we have to pay more % since we don't get B+ or A Rating because of Missing Credit Card Verification.

Yes, we know that hurts international guys and it's why we are looking at other options. We are thinking about this daily and are testing new services/connections daily to try to configure a process that would help intl borrowers. Tricky thing is that services that offer such an integration dont have a lot of international coverage to date. The ones that are best in the industry (that also pass our security tests) generally dont have the coverage in international countries that would really help our borrowers. Turkey for example, is a very tough country to cover with the above being said. I know it can be frustrating with the ratings on the side, that is one reason that we limited both the bank and CC to give you guys a fairer assessment.

Sorry to be a bit pushy, but that is total Bullshit. To verify Bank Accounts and Credit Cards in Europe is more than easy. There are enough Companys that offer this Service. If they don't meet your Privacy Level, do it on your own! SEPA Verification via 0.01 Euro Transaction is quite easy. For Credit Cards also the same, EVERY Hotel uses a Credit Card validation System to see if your Card is legit and you cannot do that?
There are enough Solutions, you had already enough Time, do something!
You Guys are charging 5% Service Fee per Loan! (btw. i'm the only one who think that this is ridic high?)

I wasnt speaking specifically about coverage in Europe but across all major continents. Really there are many things that go into this rating check that would need to be fulfilled, not just a simple SEPA transaction. We've looked into many options, none of which met our specifications. Thanks for the input.

[CoinPro*]

BTCjam is a great site, and we are up to 99+ in BTC loans paid back to this date. The only thing I would like to see improved is in regards to support. Sometimes they respond within hours, but sometimes days. That is how i found this thread, searching for others that may be having some of the same issues we are experiencing. A support member by the name of Brett has been very helpful, and seems to want to get the situations resolved, but I get a feeling that he is swamped with many other tickets, based on the time it takes to get a response sometimes.

Issue#1. Income verification:
We have uploaded a ridiculous amount of documents that prove income above and beyond, but they keep getting "rejected" for various reasons. Yes, our 2014 1099 tax form, bank statements with bank stamp, and bank manager business card/contact information, just in case they wanted to verify the information. All other lending platforms have accepted these documents, and approved our income, but for some odd reason, they keep getting denied by BTCjam. I wish they had a system like OnDeck, or Kabbage, where you log into your bank account, or PayPal, and pdf's are automatically uploaded to a specialist that reviews them. Takes less than 5 minutes, and booom!, your income is verified 

Issue#2. Not able to create second loan:
We have always been able to start a second loan, even with one active. The site FAQ page even confirms that this is possible. The only requirement in the past, was to make at least one payment on the one active. However, when trying to create a new loan, we keep getting an error that reads something to the effect like "You need to verify your income first". HA!, I wish we could Did they change the rules without telling anyone, or is it just a site glitch? My worry is that we won't be able to create any loan at all even after the one active is completely paid off.

BTCjam has been amazing up to this point, and I feel they may be growing faster than they can hire/train new employees. As a business owner myself, I know how hard that can be, so I do not fault them for it, and have been patient with these issues. I do wish they gave me an option to call in, or live cam chat, to speak to a manager/owner about these issues, because they seem like easy fixes if attended to by the right employee. Sometimes all it takes is a bit of proper delegation from the higher ups. They are still a new business, so I will have some patience.

Overall, besides for the support issues, BTCjam has been awesome. Some of our loans have been filled much faster than expected. As long as you are wiling to provide a bit of personal info, it is a great option for anyone looking to build credit in the P2P lending community.

[BTCBinary]

It is the best lending site ever. Nevertheless you need to research the people who you do business with because there are a lot of scammers using the site.

[syndria]

It is the best lending site ever. Nevertheless you need to research the people who you do business with because there are a lot of scammers using the site.

Have you ever lent from here? I am planning to ask a loan but im afraid of uploading my personal id. How trustworthy they are?

[owlcatz]

It is the best lending site ever. Nevertheless you need to research the people who you do business with because there are a lot of scammers using the site.

Ok, so if you're shilling at least point out the scammer thread, the site is by no means the best lending site ever. I see you point out the fact about scammers but still shill heavily, which seems strange to me. 

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=605994.0

[owlcatz]

It is the best lending site ever. Nevertheless you need to research the people who you do business with because there are a lot of scammers using the site.

Have you ever lent from here? I am planning to ask a loan but im afraid of uploading my personal id. How trustworthy they are?

Don't do it. There are threads on this board where if you have sufficient collateral, unlike the scammers at btcjam, you can get your loan and not expose your personal info, + the people here are much smarter.

[notaek]

BTCJam shows no dignity to the lenders at all! Their support team isn't fully functional at all!

The most disappointing thing is that, they are ignoring all defaulters without any further disputes!

[FrostStick]

I think if you're looking to lend and grow your coins, your solution is right here. Yes, here on the forum. You'll get better interest rates and you have a better judgement on the trustworthiness of the person IMO. It is also a lot of fun to chat around with people with the same interest.

[Magnesium Coin]

I think if you're looking to lend and grow your coins, your solution is right here. Yes, here on the forum. You'll get better interest rates and you have a better judgement on the trustworthiness of the person IMO. It is also a lot of fun to chat around with people with the same interest.

And this is how it works for you => https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1209048.0

[syndria]

It is the best lending site ever. Nevertheless you need to research the people who you do business with because there are a lot of scammers using the site.

Have you ever lent from here? I am planning to ask a loan but im afraid of uploading my personal id. How trustworthy they are?

Don't do it. There are threads on this board where if you have sufficient collateral, unlike the scammers at btcjam, you can get your loan and not expose your personal info, + the people here are much smarter.

Thank you for your suggestion i also dont want to and ask a loan here instead, but i cant give valid collateral for a big needed loan.

[crazyivan]

None of these lending operations can work well unless they find a way to collateralize these loans. Saying "if the lender does not pay, I ll pass his documents to you" does not work. What am I gonna do with info about somebody from South Africa, for example?

[Bourbon44]

I am following these threads and I am confused I have lots of btc on this site, am I hearing that BTCjam is going to help us get our investments back?

No they don't give a shit, they got there Fee's already so why should they care?

The whole we got our fees thing is getting pretty old. As I mentioned a few times already, fees dont make this business sustainable alone. This whole idea is ridiculous.

Actually, no it's not. It's a very legitimate concern and will eventually come back to haunt you and your colleagues on your BS business practices.

The whole incentive structure at BTCJam is warped. Jam receives their fee once a loan is funded, paid for by the lenders.

BTCJam are not lenders. They provide a platform, and this fee is paid for by the lenders, not the borrowers. The way the fee structure is set up is such that Jam maximizes their profitability when borrowers have the most loans funded.  NOT when borrowers repay the loans. They have no interest in providing credible credit ratings, and to actually expend funds to do research to provide such ratings reduces BTCJam's profitability.

If you are a lender in BTCJam be well aware:

YOU ARE NOT OUTSOURCING ANY CREDIT RESEARCH OR RISK ASSESSMENT TO BTCJAM. THEIR FEE STRUCTURE IS SET UP SUCH THAT THEY GAIN THE MOST WHEN THE MOST LOANS ARE FUNDED. NOT WHEN LOANS ARE PAID OFF. THEY HAVE AN INCENTIVE TO GET AS MANY LOANS FUNDED AS POSSIBLE. TO ACTUALLY EXPEND RESOURCES TO PROVIDE ACCURATE CREDIT RATINGS OR SEE LOANS PAID OFF, LIKE ACTUAL LENDERS, REDUCES BTCJAM'S PROFITABILITY.

One day, someone smarter than you or myself is going to figure out a way to make this work, and they're going to put you and your ilk out on the fucking street.

EDIT TO ADD:

If you don't believe me, ask a BTCJam employee to enlighten you on how they apply credit ratings. See how far that question gets you.

Also, BTCSupport does not even attempt to dispute the claim from the poster who addressed such concerns. Maybe BTCSupport is right, the fee system does not make the business sustainable alone. But then, the question remains how do they make money or keep the business sustainable? They certainly do not profit from loans being paid off. Hmmm.

We currently approve under 10% of the listings sent to us daily. If we wanted to make money on fees, this is a good way to not accomplish that. I've given comment to this theory a few times and it goes like this...

1. Bad loans = investors losses.
2. investor losses = no investors
3. no investors = no marketplace
4. no marketplace = no company! no fees! no nothing!

If you read throughout this thread Ive actually answered this very claim time and time again and just did it again for you here ^^. It's not a way to build a great business and fees arent what make us a great company. Investor returns & quality borrowers are.

Money - we raised an A round in December. That usually helps!

How do we apply the credit ratings? We apply credit ratings in a lot of different ways. Because that is one of the coolest aspects of our company, Id rather not get into it. You dont see CocaCola and Pepsi swapping recipes publicly right?

Got an email today from Loanbase saying that they have teamed up with a collection agency. What exactly have you done?

And what exactly does Coke and Pepsi have to do with credit reporting or measuring credit risk?

If you knew better you would compare credit ratings between experian and equifax. Comparing coke and pepsi is a straw man. I would say do better, but you are a member of a busch league company so you can't.

[Bourbon44]

My issue is with your screening process on the borrowers you have listed for us. To me it appears if it is not just about collecting fees then your exposing us (the lenders) to these bad risks looks like you are not doing your do diligence.

The credit rating system over there is laughable. Case in point, take a look at this loan: https://btcjam.com/listings/49296-credit-card-debt---trusted-borrower-

A- Rating on the loan given by BTCJam let's go through the specifics:

late on 12 of 20 payments on loans prior
0 equity in the site - 100% debt, no investments in other listings
this loan is by a multiple larger than any of his previous loans
borrower takes out a loan for credit card debt but does not verify a credit card. hmm, i wonder why that would be?
borrower's prior loans are for repayment of student debt, fix transmission on a car, and security deposit on a rental unit.

think about that last item for a second. assuming he's telling the truth, we know:
1. he has additional debt on top of his monstrous credit card debt,
2. his car is a pos,
3. and he doesn't own real property.

what does that mean?

he's judgment proof. i.e. it means he's broke, he has no assets. so, in the event that he does likely default, and a borrower wishes to try and recoup, they'll get nowhere, because the guy, while he might not be a scammer, clearly does not have the means to pay these loans off. if it goes to court, there will likely be nothing to liquidate to pay off the loans because he owns no assets. thus, judgment proof. THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE.

these are your A- listings at BTCJam folks.

so, if you're on the conservative auto invest, these are the types of loans that btcjam puts you in. loans that that no reputable financial agency or lender would consider "A-."

so what happens when btcjam negligently (although much more likely, recklessly, worst case, fraudulently) assigns these A- ratings to people who would otherwise get laughed out of a loan office or bank?

some poor sap, with no chance of ever seeing a dime of this money should this loan go into default, kicks the guy 18+BTC. don't get me wrong, i'm not about protecting people from themselves. and what is that about a fool and their money? my sympathy is muted. however, if jam is going to post these ratings, they owe it to the people who use the site to back these ratings with some sort of credible criteria. to echo the point above, it's like they're throwing darts at a wall, although cynics might think that they're purposefully pumping up these ratings to get people to invest because listings for borrowers has dropped off precipitously. clearly the 18+BTC sap was not expecting this payment to be late as evidenced by his numerous consecutive comments on the listing. maybe if jam had put some thought into their credit rating it could have given some users a second thought before investing so much, when they are clearly not in a position to invest such amounts in what in reality is a very risky loan to a very risky borrower. but as it stands, there is no counterbalance to some of these so called respected lenders who post crap on the site like they know a borrower is trustworthy because they spew BS about being late on payments better than some other late borrower.

bottom line, if for whatever reason, you do feel the need to invest in BTCJam, NEVER trust a rating on BTCJam. rating methodology has not been released and likely never will because, apparently, there is none. NEVER trust other investors who invest in these loans. they have just as much knowledge, and very possibly, less expertise than you, and the folks at jam, at assessing risk.

peace.

http://imgur.com/VwrOV6z

Where that data came from - https://btcjam.com/stats

Those are actual returns when following the credit ratings. We put a lot of thought into the credit rating, that is why the statistics speak for themselves. I don't know why anyone would make decisions based off other investors.

Every investor is different in the way they invest and their level of risk. I think its fair to say that every investor should do their own research. We never stated that you should follow the other investors on the site as many have different risk built into their strategy that wouldnt work for everyone. We also encourage diversification more so than throwing all your btc into one basket. I think you have a good idea of this given that you looked so hard into this borrower.

The reason AutoInvest exists is to throw very small amounts of BTC into very many listings, a set it and forget it approach for using the site. It's a good way to diversify across the marketplace at very small increments with loss/risk already built in.

Again, another straw man argument to justify an "A-" credit rating to one who shouldn't have one. Just because 10 shitty borrowers come on to your site, doesn't mean that because one is less shitty than the other, said borrower deserves an "A-" rating.

You don't argue the fact that the borrower is judgment proof, nor that he has failed to supply a credit card and is taking out debt specifically for that purpose - to pay off credit card debt. What kind of review do you do over there? Wake up.