So do Bitcoiners actually claim the foundation wasn't infiltrated?

[tacoman71]

If I am not mistaken, isn't the source code for the client freely available? Or is that just Bitcoin in general? And even if this absurd notion was even true, the entire community could switch another client.

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[RodeoX]

I hear you Rodeo, and I'm not a conspiracy theorist, nor am I not a not conspiracy theorist ...

-conspiracy theorist
#~+-1

And I do hear you man. An Idea like this is a plausible idea, but until there is some evidence that's all it is. I think a lot of people at the BF just ignore these threads because there are soooo many.
The fact is conspiracies do happen sometimes. When they do, they happen for a reason. Motive is the key! Why would someone infiltrate the BF? what would they gain?  It's not like it's a secret what is being done there. You could just ask what's going on and I'll tell you. Or read for yourself. Very little of the foundation's website is not viewable. In short there is no logic in "infiltrating' an org that makes itself public.

As far as the government not being very interested in BTC. I can tell you that the policy makers I have met with know zero about bitcoin. It is just not on their radar. In circles like the CIA they are aware of BTC. But that is their job right? It is plausible to be concerned about real terrorist using BTC to finance an attack.  They just want to know what is and how it works. But there is no evidence that they care to attack crypto currencies.

[madmadmax]

I hear you Rodeo, and I'm not a conspiracy theorist, nor am I not a not conspiracy theorist ...

-conspiracy theorist
#~+-1

And I do hear you man. An Idea like this is a plausible idea, but until there is some evidence that's all it is. I think a lot of people at the BF just ignore these threads because there are soooo many.
The fact is conspiracies do happen sometimes. When they do, they happen for a reason. Motive is the key! Why would someone infiltrate the BF? what would they gain?  It's not like it's a secret what is being done there. You could just ask what's going on and I'll tell you. Or read for yourself. Very little of the foundation's website is not viewable. In short there is no logic in "infiltrating' an org that makes itself public.

As far as the government not being very interested in BTC. I can tell you that the policy makers I have met with know zero about bitcoin. It is just not on their radar. In circles like the CIA they are aware of BTC. But that is their job right? It is plausible to be concerned about real terrorist using BTC to finance an attack.  They just want to know what is and how it works. But there is no evidence that they care to attack crypto currencies.

Governments keep talking about terrorists using BTC to finance an attack yet I have never seen a single murder being carried out with BTC let alone a sale of a weapon of mass destruction contrary to the thousands that happen with fiat.

When the perpetrator pays for a "hit" with BTC in advance it leaves little to no motive for the killer to actually carry it out, if the killer murders someone in advance it leaves little to no motive for the perpetrator to pay him using BTC, no one will create a marketplace for hits because it is immoral and would come with a hefty sentence for the owners when caught in addition to the market being non existent, due to this Mexican standof(ish) situation cryptocurrencies are an inefficient method for paying for anything order than weed to someone you don't personally know. Most current Bitcoin "killers" will ask the perpetrator to pay a traveling fee in advance and then happily disappear after, I call this the "stupidity tax".

Where will you find a person bad enough to be escrow?

All terrorist attacks and hits are carried out using paper fiat in person, furthermore it is incredibly easy for terrorist organizations to acquire weapons via SOFEX, one of the countless freelancers working for the government or even the corrupt generals who have been armed by the U.S. in Pakistan and still continue to do Chae boys up the butt.

The claim that they are investigating Bitcoin because it could be used by terrorists to finance an attack instead of corporate interests is the equivalent of me violating your privacy and spying on you 24/7 to check for the boogeyman under your bed. Every time a government uses this misleading euphemism we can safely establish that it is corrupt and seeking to eliminate the competition of the very people financing them. The spread of anti-terrorism is nothing more but propaganda to strip you of your liberty.

[RodeoX]

The claim that they are investigating Bitcoin because it could be used by terrorists to finance an attack instead of corporate interests is the equivalent of me violating your privacy and spying on you 24/7 to check for the boogeyman under your bed. ...

I am with you bro! Right after 9/11 I knew that soon the term terrorist will be used for everything. Especially as a pretext, kinda like they use "kiddy porn" to scare people into giving up rights. But there are people who think like us in the CIA also. And they want to have some knowledge of bitcoin because, although rare, it may be used by an actual terror group. If that happens the CIA wants to be ahead of the curve and know what they are dealing with.
It is even conceivable that the CIA might use it themselves. A system that can be used to send money anonymously around the world is certainly going to be explored by all the world's covert services.

[sickpig]

Is there an alternative full client?

- bitcoind
- Bitcoin-Qt
- Gocoin

Both bitcoind and Bitcoin-Qt are the main backbone of the Bitcoin network. I'm not sure what ratio of nodes are bitcoind or bitcoin-qt.

I would actually say the bitcoind is more important because this is the one all the services would use.

Versions are much more important. Basically, stuff after about 0.7 or so supports the wallets of everyone owning less than a Bitcoin or thereabouts.

Sorry but my english is a little bit rusty. Are you implying that everything above bitcoind 0.7 is not trustworthy?

[madmadmax]

The claim that they are investigating Bitcoin because it could be used by terrorists to finance an attack instead of corporate interests is the equivalent of me violating your privacy and spying on you 24/7 to check for the boogeyman under your bed. ...

I am with you bro! Right after 9/11 I knew that soon the term terrorist will be used for everything. Especially as a pretext, kinda like they use "kiddy porn" to scare people into giving up rights. But there are people who think like us in the CIA also. And they want to have some knowledge of bitcoin because, although rare, it may be used by an actual terror group. If that happens the CIA wants to be ahead of the curve and know what they are dealing with.
It is even conceivable that the CIA might use it themselves. A system that can be used to send money anonymously around the world is certainly going to be explored by all the world's covert services.

Basically what you are saying is that although I'm right it still shouldn't prevent the corporate owned government from planting propaganda seeds in the cryptosoil in advance?

Sorry but my english is a little bit rusty. Are you implying that everything above bitcoind 0.7 is not trustworthy?

That's exactly what the bitch is saying...

[RodeoX]

Basically what you are saying is that although I'm right it still shouldn't prevent the corporate owned government from planting propaganda seeds in the cryptosoil in advance?

No, not that. I'm saying they do have a legitimate reason for knowing about bitcoin. It does have national security implications. The CIA was also an early player on the internet as well. They could see that this was going to change spycraft. I think bitcoin will as well. They are not going to ignore something this big. Neither are the other intelligence services all over the world. Why pick the CIA instead of MOSAD or any others. They are all into bitcoin right now. Take your pick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intelligence_agencies
 

[ibminer]

Sorry but my english is a little bit rusty. Are you implying that everything above bitcoind 0.7 is not trustworthy?

That's exactly what the bitch is saying...

Is this seriously what MPOE-PR is implying?

[madmadmax]

Basically what you are saying is that although I'm right it still shouldn't prevent the corporate owned government from planting propaganda seeds in the cryptosoil in advance?

No, not that. I'm saying they do have a legitimate reason for knowing about bitcoin. It does have national security implications. The CIA was also an early player on the internet as well. They could see that this was going to change spycraft. I think bitcoin will as well. They are not going to ignore something this big. Neither are the other intelligence services all over the world. Why pick the CIA instead of MOSAD or any others. They are all into bitcoin right now. Take your pick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intelligence_agencies
 

I can't see myself agreeing to meet the CIA like Gavin did especially that early on, why would I want to meet with the enemies of Bitcoin let alone the enemies of humanity, intelligence agencies aren't above the game, they are still controlled by the same bankers and thus they are the same racketeers.

[justusranvier]

Is there an alternative full client?

https://opensource.conformal.com/wiki/btcd

[RodeoX]

I can't see myself agreeing to meet the CIA like Gavin did especially that early on, why would I want to meet with the enemies of Bitcoin let alone the enemies of humanity, intelligence agencies aren't above the game, they are still controlled by the same bankers and thus they are the same racketeers.

The influence corporate America has over all facets of the government is alarming. You'll get no argument from me about that. But their corruption is the profitable kind, that is their interest. A business cabal might lean on a Senator to manipulate a CIA report so that it is more favorable to their plans for contracts. That kind of thing makes sense, it's a greedy investment in future profits. I don't see many logical motives for the CIA's role in BTC and I see no real evidence to support the various theories that they created, or are destroying it.

It sound like you suspect the CIA is an enemy of BTC. We know they have some interest in it because they invited the chief scientist to come speak. That is not at all unusual, analysis of overseas payment networks is stock stuff and they are constantly hosting lectures on damn near everything. As for intelligence services being an enemy of humanity, by and large that may be true. All over the world countries use their services on their own people for corrupt reasons. By comparison with them, let alone with history, the corruption I am exposed to is little. Besides, if you want to go after the real enemy of humanity you must confront the master these entities serve. War.

  

[benjamindees]

I don't see many logical motives for the CIA's role in BTC

It really is amazing how ignorant most of you are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit_Man

I was initially recruited while I was in business school back in the late sixties by the National Security Agency, the nation’s largest and least understood spy organization; but ultimately I worked for private corporations. The first real economic hit man was back in the early 1950s, Kermit Roosevelt, Jr., the grandson of Teddy, who overthrew the government of Iran, a democratically elected government, Mossadegh’s government who was Time‘s magazine person of the year; and he was so successful at doing this without any bloodshed—well, there was a little bloodshed, but no military intervention, just spending millions of dollars and replaced Mossadegh with the Shah of Iran. At that point, we understood that this idea of economic hit man was an extremely good one. We didn’t have to worry about the threat of war with Russia when we did it this way. The problem with that was that Roosevelt was a C.I.A. agent. He was a government employee. Had he been caught, we would have been in a lot of trouble. It would have been very embarrassing. So, at that point, the decision was made to use organizations like the C.I.A. and the N.S.A. to recruit potential economic hit men like me and then send us to work for private consulting companies, engineering firms, construction companies, so that if we were caught, there would be no connection with the government.

Besides, if you want to go after the real enemy of humanity you must confront the master these entities serve. War.

Wars happen for a reason.  They aren't just fucking random acts for the purpose of consuming armaments.

When government agents openly claim that using alternative currencies is "domestic terrorism" and plan to "infiltrate, disrupt and dismantle" them, what the fuck do you people think that means, exactly?  Do you think that means regulators are your friends?

[ibminer]

I can't see myself agreeing to meet the CIA like Gavin did especially that early on, why would I want to meet with the enemies of Bitcoin let alone the enemies of humanity, intelligence agencies aren't above the game, they are still controlled by the same bankers and thus they are the same racketeers.

The influence corporate America has over all facets of the government is alarming. You'll get no argument from me about that. But their corruption is the profitable kind, that is their interest. A business cabal might lean on a Senator to manipulate a CIA report so that it is more favorable to their plans for contracts. That kind of thing makes sense, it's a greedy investment in future profits. I don't see many logical motives for the CIA's role in BTC and I see no real evidence to support the various theories that they created, or are destroying it.

It sound like you suspect the CIA is an enemy of BTC. We know they have some interest in it because they invited the chief scientist to come speak. That is not at all unusual, analysis of overseas payment networks is stock stuff and they are constantly hosting lectures on damn near everything. As for intelligence services being an enemy of humanity, by and large that may be true. All over the world countries use their services on their own people for corrupt reasons. By comparison with them, let alone with history, the corruption I am exposed to is little. Besides, if you want to go after the real enemy of humanity you must confront the master these entities serve. War.

Most of these agencies seem to have a thirst for intelligence & information of their own citizens as well as other countries, it seems unlikely that they would support an innovation like Bitcoin that could be used to protect citizens worldwide against their information gathering  techniques and make their jobs harder.

Bitcoin also lends a big hand in educating people about encryption and how to protect your privacy online… these things I cannot see agencies like this being happy with, they would much rather people know nothing about how to protect their privacy online.

But does not being happy with something necessarily mean you are an all out enemy of it?  

My personal feeling would be, if we are taking about the CIA, yes, they would want to neutralize or mitigate the success of any threat to their intelligence gathering techniques. Or, at least ensure they have their own ways of gathering the intelligence they want within the Bitcoin world.

So I guess I can understand where these thoughts come from.

[madmadmax]

I don't see many logical motives for the CIA's role in BTC

It really is amazing how ignorant most of you are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit_Man

I was initially recruited while I was in business school back in the late sixties by the National Security Agency, the nation’s largest and least understood spy organization; but ultimately I worked for private corporations. The first real economic hit man was back in the early 1950s, Kermit Roosevelt, Jr., the grandson of Teddy, who overthrew the government of Iran, a democratically elected government, Mossadegh’s government who was Time‘s magazine person of the year; and he was so successful at doing this without any bloodshed—well, there was a little bloodshed, but no military intervention, just spending millions of dollars and replaced Mossadegh with the Shah of Iran. At that point, we understood that this idea of economic hit man was an extremely good one. We didn’t have to worry about the threat of war with Russia when we did it this way. The problem with that was that Roosevelt was a C.I.A. agent. He was a government employee. Had he been caught, we would have been in a lot of trouble. It would have been very embarrassing. So, at that point, the decision was made to use organizations like the C.I.A. and the N.S.A. to recruit potential economic hit men like me and then send us to work for private consulting companies, engineering firms, construction companies, so that if we were caught, there would be no connection with the government.

Besides, if you want to go after the real enemy of humanity you must confront the master these entities serve. War.

Wars happen for a reason.  They aren't just fucking random acts for the purpose of consuming armaments.

When government agents openly claim that using alternative currencies is "domestic terrorism" and plan to "infiltrate, disrupt and dismantle" them, what the fuck do you people think that means, exactly?  Do you think that means regulators are your friends?

I support your message fellow intellectual.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfEBupAeo4

[RodeoX]

I don't see many logical motives for the CIA's role in BTC

It really is amazing how ignorant most of you are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit_Man

I was initially recruited while I was in business school back in the late sixties...

Your economic hit man worked for private companies. Not the CIA. And some people seem to forget that the CIA does not operate in the USA. They collect foreign intelligence. Intelligence on terrorism or other criminal activity is handled by the FBI inside the U.S.
Now, the CIA might launch an economic attack on a foreign army, for example. They might lock up their bank accounts, print counterfeit money to crash an enemy's economy.  That, and bombs, are how you win a war.
The problem with these claims about the CIA destroying bitcoin is that they make no sense. Show me a motive. The CIA has very smart people who do not do things for no reason. What is the smart reason for doing this?
   

[JohnnyBTCSeed]

I don't see many logical motives for the CIA's role in BTC

It really is amazing how ignorant most of you are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit_Man

I was initially recruited while I was in business school back in the late sixties...

Your economic hit man worked for private companies. Not the CIA. And some people seem to forget that the CIA does not operate in the USA. They collect foreign intelligence. Intelligence on terrorism or other criminal activity is handled by the FBI inside the U.S.
Now, the CIA might launch an economic attack on a foreign army, for example. They might lock up their bank accounts, print counterfeit money to crash an enemy's economy.  That, and bombs, are how you win a war.
The problem with these claims about the CIA destroying bitcoin is that they make no sense. Show me a motive. The CIA has very smart people who do not do things for no reason. What is the smart reason for doing this?
   

Pretty sure the CIA sells drugs in the US to fund their endless wars

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_drug_trafficking

and

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/about.shtml

[benjamindees]

the CIA does not operate in the USA   

Bullshit.

The program engaged in many illegal activities; in particular it used unwitting U.S. and Canadian citizens as its test subjects

[Ytterbium]

Governments keep talking about terrorists using BTC to finance an attack yet I have never seen a single murder being carried out with BTC let alone a sale of a weapon of mass destruction contrary to the thousands that happen with fiat.

When the perpetrator pays for a "hit" with BTC in advance it leaves little to no motive for the killer to actually carry it out, if the killer murders someone in advance it leaves little to no motive for the perpetrator to pay him using BTC,

Actually, the silkroad guy tried to get people whacked twice.  Both times, he was actually scammed (first time by the feds, second time by random people who were in cahoots with the target)

[madmadmax]

Governments keep talking about terrorists using BTC to finance an attack yet I have never seen a single murder being carried out with BTC let alone a sale of a weapon of mass destruction contrary to the thousands that happen with fiat.

When the perpetrator pays for a "hit" with BTC in advance it leaves little to no motive for the killer to actually carry it out, if the killer murders someone in advance it leaves little to no motive for the perpetrator to pay him using BTC,

Actually, the silkroad guy tried to get people whacked twice.  Both times, he was actually scammed (first time by the feds, second time by random people who were in cahoots with the target)

My point exactly, at least do a false flag Bitcoin terrorist attack like 9/11 then proceed with your propaganda.

[genjix]

Basically I wouldn't be worried about some conspiracy. I'd be more worried if the developers represent corporate interests and are controlling development. There's a lot of deep difficult decisions in the code where it's not clear one path or another. If your agenda is even slightly corrupted then you will take the small decisions to benefit corporations over the black market/small businesses/p2p transfers. Corruption is not one big thing but many small decisions. Take the payments protocol as an example which uses CAs- it doesn't benefit small businesses, p2p transfers or the black market only corporations to reduce payment friction for them. That's why it's important to support alternative implementations that give a voice to empower different segments of the community as part of the development process.

Anyone interested in alternatives should check out what we're doing with darkwallet - we have our own alternative & full stack of BTC software: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=372390.0