[RETURN] Announcing CoinReturn Financial IPO!

[SamboNZ]

For the last few weeks I have been doing some in-depth checks into CoinReturn and its founders.  Here is a brief summary of my findings and observations for the benefit of the community:


Negative Points

• Introductory blurb states that the company is registered in Cyprus, however this is not the case.  I asked the the CoinReturn team about this and they said that while this was the original idea, they changed their minds on this after seeking legal opinion.
• We have yet to see the delayed stream of trade history as mentioned in the company introduction

Positive Points

• The Coinreturn team are fairly communicative and continue to be up-front and open about the operations of the company
• The fund has been operating for over 3 months
• There has never been a missed dividend without notice or good reason (eg; CS wallets being down)
• CoinReturn is not promising loss-free operation
• The company is open about losses when they occur, often providing details of exactly what happened
• Returns appear to be realistic and consistent with market conditions at the time
• The company is taking a realistic cut of the profits
• I have seen some behind the scenes trading history, which all seems to be legitimate
• There is currently a stop on further share issues until 2015.  This is a strong indicator that they are not a Ponzi operation
• The team are actively concerned about loosing contact with shareholders (in the event of CS shutting down) and have a plan in place to mitigate this risk
• I have sighted an official ID for Tom, including address of residence

I don't want to go into my general opinion of CoinReturn in this post as I'd rather keep it as neutral as possible and leave the conclusion up to the reader.  However...

Disclosure:  I am a shareholder in CoinReturn.

[1715084823]

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[1715084823]

1715084823

[AcoinL.L.C]

CoinReturn offers decent returns, ~1 year ROI at current rate. Im going to pass since its on cryptostocks 

[Chef Ramsay]

CoinReturn offers decent returns, ~1 year ROI at current rate. Im going to pass since its on cryptostocks  

Dude, for the umteenth time CS doesn't matter as all our shit is locked off of that platform plus no divs are payed during a collapse on CS's issues. As for the ROI, it stands at a minimum of 200% all the way up to ~350%ish pa depending on market conditions. Again, there is no other security making money like this plus being responsible w/ their shareholder's stakes. And, the order book is telling the complete story. The free market value of these puppies is ticking upward just as I predicted and at a fast clip.

[junkonator]

Positive Points

a strong indicator that they are not a Ponzi operation

LOL

[tricomp]

For the last few weeks I have been doing some in-depth checks into CoinReturn and its founders.  Here is a brief summary of my findings and observations for the benefit of the community:


Negative Points

• Introductory blurb states that the company is registered in Cyprus, however this is not the case.  I asked the the CoinReturn team about this and they said that while this was the original idea, they changed their minds on this after seeking legal opinion.
• We have yet to see the delayed stream of trade history as mentioned in the company introduction

Positive Points

• The Coinreturn team are fairly communicative and continue to be up-front and open about the operations of the company
• The fund has been operating for over 3 months
• There has never been a missed dividend without notice or good reason (eg; CS wallets being down)
• CoinReturn is not promising loss-free operation
• The company is open about losses when they occur, often providing details of exactly what happened
• Returns appear to be realistic and consistent with market conditions at the time
• The company is taking a realistic cut of the profits
• I have seen some behind the scenes trading history, which all seems to be legitimate
• There is currently a stop on further share issues until 2015.  This is a strong indicator that they are not a Ponzi operation
• The team are actively concerned about loosing contact with shareholders (in the event of CS shutting down) and have a plan in place to mitigate this risk
• I have sighted an official ID for Tom, including address of residence

I don't want to go into my general opinion of CoinReturn in this post as I'd rather keep it as neutral as possible and leave the conclusion up to the reader.  However...

Disclosure:  I am a shareholder in CoinReturn.

Just curious about the level of checks you were able to make.
The domain owner's name is anonymized  in WHOIS search. So how did you know if the ID you saw belongs to the owner ?.

The investment return looks good. I just wish the owners will open up with all the secrecy , so one is sure who is managing the funds.

[SamboNZ]

Just curious about the level of checks you were able to make.
The domain owner's name is anonymized  in WHOIS search. So how did you know if the ID you saw belongs to the owner ?.

The investment return looks good. I just wish the owners will open up with all the secrecy , so one is sure who is managing the funds.

Well, I saw Tom's ID, who is one of the CoinReturn team, who the domain belongs to is somewhat irrelevant; Tom is who we are generally dealing with on a regular basis and he has proven his identity.

[coinreturn]

For the last few weeks I have been doing some in-depth checks into CoinReturn and its founders.  Here is a brief summary of my findings and observations for the benefit of the community:


Negative Points

• Introductory blurb states that the company is registered in Cyprus, however this is not the case.  I asked the the CoinReturn team about this and they said that while this was the original idea, they changed their minds on this after seeking legal opinion.
• We have yet to see the delayed stream of trade history as mentioned in the company introduction

Positive Points

• The Coinreturn team are fairly communicative and continue to be up-front and open about the operations of the company

...
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....
....[CLIPPED TO SHORTEN LONGPOST]
...

shareholder in CoinReturn.
[/i]

Just curious about the level of checks you were able to make.
The domain owner's name is anonymized  in WHOIS search. So how did you know if the ID you saw belongs to the owner ?.

The investment return looks good. I just wish the owners will open up with all the secrecy , so one is sure who is managing the funds.

        We're going to try to cover alot of replies here... We're glad to see SamboNZ put out his report, we saw him as a neutral third party who has history of acting as a sort of SEC for cryptostocks so we we're willing to comply as best we could (trade history, background info). We admit we (Tom and Jeff) had pretty strong opposing opinions about the benefits/risks of disclosing a photo of sensitive information (in this case Tom's DL), so in the end I (Tom) agreed to disclose a pic of my ID to SamboNZ.
        Our hesitance regarding this disclosure about the specifics of our location isn't a mystery but we're going to go more in depth here... To backup a bit, when we started we thought if we could host our website and register our various accounts through IPs based in Cyprus then we could, from a legal standpoint, be based in Cyprus. Foolishly, we didn't based this on anything an attorney had told us but rather on our own assumptions. Months later, after talking with a mutual friend who is an attorney familiar with this area of the law they informed us that routing our IPs through Cyprus is not only pointless, but worse for us in the end since we would be misrepresenting ourselves.
          To come clean, we are in the United States. We haven't wanted to reveal this since in the U.S., regulatory agencies like the SEC don't approve of Bitcoin investment vehicles like ours and those in the U.S. who have been open about their identity have been fined and had operations stopped. For instance, look at two cases here from an SEC press release. Note the one involving SatoshiDice mentions: ".. SatoshiDICE...ultimately returned these offering proceeds to investors in a buy-back transaction in July 2013.  A significant rise in the exchange rate of U.S. dollars to bitcoins actually increased the amount paid back to investors to approximately $3.8 million for 45,500 bitcoins." So even with investors receiving a full return and profits the SEC still extracted $50,000 from the operator. Those who have been on CS a while may remember Multipool, whose project owner tried to do the right thing and disclose his info only to have the SEC shut down operations.
           Clearly SEC involvement in any Bitcoin based investment fund is basically a death sentence and if we ever face action from the SEC we don't know how easily or fairly we will be able to get investors funds back in an equitable and fair manner, not to mention potential fines and court charges toward us.
We did, however, reveal our actual names and information about ourselves, just not our location. We have a good idea of what info is out there already about us and the SEC would have to use alot of resources and hours (and the SEC's $1.3bil budget is stretched thin as is) to figure out which Tom Mica's and Jeff Lombard's are actually running this fund, which controls <$100k (small change compared to other bitcoin investment operations). So basically from the start, we've had to balance disclosing as much as we can about ourselves but to a point that regulatory agencies can't exactly figure out who/where we are. It would be nice to be able to be totally open, but this twisted regulatory system actually punishes those who try to be open and honest.

           We hope nobody here feels misled since we tried to address these issues in this thread in the first few pages, however we apologize for things we weren't open about, like our location. We've been unsure whether to address this or not but we figure more people are going to ask about the whole Cyprus/location thing and we really just want to get it out in the open. As always we welcome your questions and will do our best to answer them. However, in this instance we aren't too eager to give out any information that would make it easier for regulators (the SEC mentions these forums in the linked pressed release)





Next topic:
Today's dividend is about to be paid out. We'll admit it's pretty mediocre, however we're somewhat in the middle of some trades, or rather waiting for some orders to get filled. We've had almost entirely sells today and the buys we have had just occurred recently.
Fans of technical analysis and charts can see that today , or have heard there is a bit of talk of, an incoming drop. Look at the 1d, 12h,.., 2h settings on bitcoinwisdom and you can see what has the potential to be a dip coming soon. Now of course this could change and we could be made to look like jackasses right after posting this, theres alot of bullish news (ebay/paypal buzz, expedia, etc) which might help but we are still expecting a drop, even if its only to 600.... Currently its on a small $15 uptrend at the time of this post and is getting close to triggering our break-even at different points (640-650) but we're still bearish right now. We had some fill when we went below 620 but that will be on next dividend. Bottom line: if the bear trend gains steam next dividend should be pretty nice.

If anybody is confused by charts or by what were describing don't be shy about asking and we'll gladly post some screenshots and break things down.


Phew...that took a while to type!
Sorry for the long post.


-Tom

[noobthegreat]

You guys could be based on Pango Pango for all I care.  As long as you continue paying out the kinds of dividends we've been seeing the past few days, I'm satisfied.  Conversely, anything that costs you guys money (in turn, costing us money) is a big no-no in my book, and if that happens to be a breach of your anonymity, damn them all to hell.

[SamboNZ]

Just out of interest; what would it take to become SEC compliant?

In other news; Holy crap, I got an email from the CS website!!  Dividend notification!   Dividend notices are my favorite emails EVER!

[NotLambchop]

You guys could be based on Pango Pango for all I care.  As long as you continue paying out the kinds of dividends we've been seeing the past few days, I'm satisfied...

What you seem to be forgetting is that most scams and all ponzis pay out great at the beginning, that's how they attract savvy investing enthusiasts such as yourself.
In a few months, I'll drop you a condolences gif and offer you a virtual shoulder to sob on.

[SamboNZ]

You guys could be based on Pango Pango for all I care.  As long as you continue paying out the kinds of dividends we've been seeing the past few days, I'm satisfied...

What you seem to be forgetting is that most scams and all ponzis pay out great at the beginning, that's how they attract savvy investing enthusiasts such as yourself.
In a few months, I'll drop you a condolences gif and offer you a virtual shoulder to sob on.

And what information have you discovered that caused you to come to the conclusion that CoinReturn is a ponzi / scam?

[NotLambchop]

You guys could be based on Pango Pango for all I care.  As long as you continue paying out the kinds of dividends we've been seeing the past few days, I'm satisfied...

What you seem to be forgetting is that most scams and all ponzis pay out great at the beginning, that's how they attract savvy investing enthusiasts such as yourself.
In a few months, I'll drop you a condolences gif and offer you a virtual shoulder to sob on.

And what information have you discovered that caused you to come to the conclusion that CoinReturn is a ponzi / scam?

What led you to believe that I have discovered any?  I simply pointed out that sending money to strangers through intertubes typically results in copious amounts of tears and snot being spilled.  
~Happy investing

[SamboNZ]

What led you to believe that I have discovered any?  I simply pointed out that sending money to strangers through intertubes typically results in copious amounts of tears and snot being spilled. 
~Happy investing

Based on your previous post you seem imply knowing something that we don't...

If you wish to troll / imply unsubstantiated accusations, you may find that posting elsewhere will yield better results than in this thread.

[NotLambchop]

^If you feel I've made any accusations, kindly point one out.  My comment is based purely on statistics and probabilities.  For every scheme of this type that made money for Bitcointalk "investors" (i can't think of any, but I suspect some may exist), I'll offer you handfulls of cases that ended in fail and aids.

Of course, this particular example may be unique, and you may be that very special snowflake who beats the odds.  In which case, continue "investing."

To show that I hold no bad feelings towards you for your rude, erroneous and utterly unsubstantiated accusations, I will extend you the same offer previously made to noobthegreat.
In a few months, you too will receive a condolences gif and a virtual shoulder to sob on.

  ~Happy investing

[noobthegreat]

I guess he's just keeping his words short and passive-aggressive so he can balk on eating them at an indefinite point in the future.

These guys made a gesture of reaching out, breaching their own zone of comfort in anonymity.  Some of us voiced support and encouragement, but fuck, that was it, we're not promising our firstborn to these guys.  Your post went from potentially being cautionary to just plain mudslinging merely a few words in, which takes a step backwards in creating a sensible, thoughtful atmosphere (i.e., unproductive), and as SamboNZ pointed out, it's not wanted here. (he's the one who supposedly did the due diligence against them in this figurative thought experiment of whether we should trust these imaginary CoinReturn guys, if you will, but I guess everyone's a scammer.)

In any case, I won't be asking for a shoulder to cry on because I don't have money tied up on here I can't afford to lose and will have to /wrist on the account of losing it.  Nor should anyone, though it's a free internet I suppose.

[NotLambchop]

You wish to create a "thoughtful atmosphere" in a thread where investment aficionados line up for the inevitable surprise buttsecs?  Listen to yourself.
Justifying your shrewd investings with "I can afford to lose it" is as irresponsible and shortsighted as tossing half-eaten burritos on our floor because you're "not hungry and can afford it."  It makes a mess, breeds rats, and our normal neighbors start avoiding us.

I'm tired of intrepid investors tossing coin they "can afford to lose" at every half-witted con that's been burnt down IRL ages ago, and, when said "investment" [predictably] hits the fan, forgetting their pseudo-libertarian pretensions and running to the first government TLA that'll listen to their gripes...
...surprisingly bringing negative press and tighter regulation to Bitcoin.

  ~Happy investing

[noobthegreat]

You wish to create a "thoughtful atmosphere" in a thread where investment aficionados line up for the inevitable surprise buttsecs?  Listen to yourself.
Justifying your shrewd investings with "I can afford to lose it" is as irresponsible and shortsighted as tossing half-eaten burritos on our floor because you're "not hungry and can afford it."  It makes a mess, breeds rats, and our normal neighbors start avoiding us.

I'm tired of intrepid investors tossing coin they "can afford to lose" at every half-witted con that's been burnt down IRL ages ago, and, when said "investment" [predictably] hits the fan, forgetting their pseudo-libertarian pretensions and running to the first government TLA that'll listen to their gripes...
...surprisingly bringing negative press and tighter regulation to Bitcoin.

  ~Happy investing

Profound, but technically irrelevant to the question at hand. At least now we know what your stake is in this fight, albeit it's an indirect and abstract loss in a scenario where Bitcoin has to be regulated because of the ease and frequency of scams. (Or maybe it's not such a far-off scenario, and, if anything, practically inevitable by who Cryptocurrency protects by design but mostly by virtue of human greed and stupidity, in which case you then have my virtual condolences, as will all of us, for living in such a doomed world.  Throw it all out the window!)

The onus is still on you to answer why you still think this is a scam, especially in light of being asked following the good faith moves the project manager(s) made in an effort to try and dispel ambiguity and suspicion.

You were responsible enough to warn us of this supposed scam, despite your judgment that everyone in this thread are ostriches with our heads in the sand; I impose on you a little further by asking you to share your logic behind why we should still distrust Coinreturn (at least, any more so than any other crypto platform/system/environment where we give our money to strangers).

[NotLambchop]

...impose on you a little further by asking you to share your logic behind why we should still distrust Coinreturn (at least, any more so than any other crypto platform/system/environment where we give our money to strangers).

You should not give your bitcoin to strangers.  No more than you should give cash to every passerby who promises to make you rich.
Let's pursue this analogy a bit further:
You insist on handing over your cash to strangers in the street.  When I suggest this might not be the wisest course of action, you demand proof of you being scammed.  Because "the onus is on [me]."

No.  The burden of proof is not on me.  If this is not obvious to you on its face (and it's sadly apparent that it is not), there's nothing I can add to change your mind.

To be honest, I never thought I could.  You are not here to understand but to defend your patently absurd investings.  I can't convince you any more than I could convince a lunatic that he's not "a little tea pot, short and stout."

So I have to content myself with second best--using this thread as an edifying cautionary tale for our younger [thus educable] Bitcoiners.
With you and SamboNZ being the sad tale's unfortunate protagonists.
A tale made all the more poignant once this "investment" [inevitably and quite predictably] implodes.

  ~Happy investing

[coinreturn]

Just out of interest; what would it take to become SEC compliant?

In other news; Holy crap, I got an email from the CS website!!  Dividend notification!   Dividend notices are my favorite emails EVER!

You guys could be based on Pango Pango for all I care.  As long as you continue paying out the kinds of dividends we've been seeing the past few days, I'm satisfied...

What you seem to be forgetting is that most scams and all ponzis pay out great at the beginning, that's how they attract savvy investing enthusiasts such as yourself.
In a few months, I'll drop you a condolences gif and offer you a virtual shoulder to sob on.

This is the problem, we really can't become SEC compliant, virtually no bitcoin fund can. Maybe with a small team of lawyers and the funds to pay the fees a bitcoin fund could but who knows how you would even (be allowed to) solicit investors. Thus projects have to operate in the shadows making it impossible to tell ponzi apart from legitimate. If the SEC would issue a ruling saying basically "all you have to do is disclose who you are and where you are until we can sort out the rules, and have it verified" it would be so helpful for everyone. That way if shit hits the fan with whatever project then investors (and poss. regulators) can take action. It's not ideal but its better than what we have now.
Anyway lambchop has every right to take the stance he has, we haven't disclosed anywhere near what a publicly traded company would have to, and even then those companies can still cook the books and screw investors. BTC related investing is far more risky at this stage of btc's life and there should always be people out there voicing concerns about scams, we don't have the regulatory structure we need so we need something/someone to at the very least give people pause before investing in any btc related investment.



On an unrelated note, looks like the drop is here and we're floating around the 610 range and falling, like a car flying off a cliff in slow motion. Hope everyone bailed out when we were back at >$635....course we're not rooting against btc, we just want some short term volatility.... Looks like if ltc/btc doesn't start rising with btc's fall then LTC might really be on its way to the grave though....remember when NVC was always as much or more than LTC? it can happen. Anyway, without giving out too many specifics, things are shaping up for some good returns.

[noobthegreat]

...impose on you a little further by asking you to share your logic behind why we should still distrust Coinreturn (at least, any more so than any other crypto platform/system/environment where we give our money to strangers).

You should not give your bitcoin to strangers.  No more than you should give cash to every passerby who promises to make you rich.
Let's pursue this analogy a bit further:
You insist on handing over your cash to strangers in the street.  When I suggest this might not be the wisest course of action, you demand proof of you being scammed.  Because "the onus is on [me]."

[...]

  ~Happy investing

You can't invest without giving your money to strangers.  Whatever makes them not strangers IRL would be on the path to regulation and/or antithetical to crypto (failing that, at least antithetical to the regulation you seemed to dislike so much above). The guys at Coinreturn are no less and no more strangers to me and you than the exchanges, mining pools and the very decentralized network itself. At the end of the day, if you're in this game, you will have your money in the hands of strangers at some point, or else why have it at all?

Frankly, I don't give a shit about this particular project because it's not even close to being the biggest part of my portfolio (in line with diversifying via risk-reward), and if it tanks or Tom and Jeff split, then I was wrong and what you seem to perceive as my "crusade" ends there, but I, too, am all about trying to represent as much of what I consider to be the truth as I can to all who listen, and as far as I can tell, you haven't offered much other than "they could scam us, therefore they will scam us". (Again, that's reasonable considering the cost, but we're past that point in the argument).  It's great that people like you exist and offer criticism so that we all hash it out now and then and remain vigilant (I'm being sincere there), but I personally want them to have a fair shake as they've been, if nothing else, civil and prompt in their dealings with us thus far.

As an aside, kudos to Tom (or Jeff?) for that remark bout how this kind of dialogue is necessary, even when it's critical of one's self.  If you really are scamming me, at least you're playing it straight.