Don't buy bitcoin because it won't be fine

[fxsurfer]

Hi, very good text about Ponzi scheme!

But I think Bitcoin does not fulfil those attributes.

Bitcoin has a use, more than one.

I disagree with your opinion.

Name just one, please.

I can name a number of them.

A way to transfer value between users cheap, fast, traceable and without a way to charge back, which IMO is great. Let's forget for a moment that at this stage most of us had to buy BTC at exchanges. This is still an early stage, a spot where companies like Apple and Microsoft were in the early 90s. When we reach a point where most people know about BTC and have an ability to receive a payment, it will create huge new opportunities.
You want to bid at an auction overseas and have no local currency, or it's Saturday, or it's a bank holiday, whatever,. You just call them and send BTC. They get it within 10 minutes.

You want to move money from one country to another but your local laws prohibit you from taking a lot of money with you. If you took cash it would get confiscated. If you take a credit card you will have to pay fees. So you take BTC, which has no fees and is impossible to detect. You can move it around in the memory of your smartwatch if you want to.

Your country is financially unstable and you want to store value somewhere. You could buy gold but it's heavy and difficult to carry. It's also undivisable and you can't pay with it. Choose BTC!

You want to gamble, but in your country it's illegal. Fine, but they're also not allowing you to gamble outside the country, which IMO goes against basic human rights. You can always gamble with BTC, which they aren't able to control.

If in your view BTC doesn't have its uses then payment systems like visa, paypal, WU, also don't. BTC gives you full control, which is priceless in today's world.

If I say that iPhone has a use, that mens it is used as communicating device, music player, gaming console, camera, and so on. If I say that Dollar has a use, that mens it is used for fulfilling loan obligations - which is the reason it came into existence in the first place. Passing iPhone or Dollar from hand to hand is not usage but transfer. And transfer is performed via infrastructure that has nothing to do with iPhone or Dollar. If I make a bet and win iPhone or dollars this is also not usage, but transfer of an item from one person to another. Hence transferring, moving or gambling with bitcoin is not the usage of Bitcoin. So, I will ask again: how Bitcoin is used?

[1715017819]

1715017819

[eternalgloom]

So you're just going to disregard all the technical features of Bitcoin that offer a wide range of use-cases?

What about time-locks? Tell me how you can time-lock fiat currently, so it cannot be spent for X amount of days or years?
Then, lightning network and atomic swaps. Can you instantly exchange one form of fiat currency for another? (And be able to spend the money immediately)

Then there's also the fact that Bitcoin isn't controlled by a single entity. That fact alone provides us with use-cases that we don't have when using fiat currency.
Is it not a unique feature that we're able to send money worldwide with very little fees and almost no waiting time?

[KenChanYu]

That's your opinion but my opinion even I don't have enough money to buy bitcoin I will choose to believe that it will rise again. Did you know that recovery is real? In due time bitcoin and altcoins will recover again no matter what will happen in the market. It takes time before it will happen.

   Keep your positive motivation mate, it will be more exciting taking the risky challenges in cryptocurrency. I certainly acknowledge and recommend bitcoin to be resembled for investments as it is a primary asset in the marketfield. And I believe that bitcoin's revovery has its own way to break the bearishness, so keep on buying or investing bitcoin to gain more reliable and viable profits.

[Mariela Perez]

If such statements were true on the matter then we'd never see Bitcoin or any other Altcoin come as far as they have nor would see people make any sort of profit from it, which they are already and not be able to use cryptocurrency for some everyday uses which we see in a lot of countries now which accept it as payment for services and other things. If people believed that this was a ponzi scheme it would've never come as far as it did nor would we see people who invested in Bitcoin when it wasn't worth anything hardly to be rich now. As we're moving towards the digital age with each passing day people become more aware of the importance of cryptocurrency.

[EllenSmith]

In my opinion, I do not agree with your point of view: You do not think it is an asset or a payment method. If it is not an asset, not worth it, why do so many people want it. If it is not a payment method, why Starbucks or Dell allow customers to pay by bitcoin

[ShadowBits]

In a fraudulent investment scheme, like Ponzi, investors transfer their utilizable resources, be it money, goods or services, and then they end up to with something which has zero utilization capacity, like promise or non-binding record of investment. After the investment, the only possible way for them to get utilizable resources back is if new investors join the scheme and in that way bring such resources with them.

The opposite is true in a legitimate investment business, where investors transfer one type of utilizable resource and in return they receive another type of such resource. An utilizable resource is anything that can be practically utilized by humans. For e.g. a car can be practically utilized for driving, a dollar for loan payments, a stock for participation in company's profitability, food for providing nutritional support, a raw material for producing finished products etc. Hence, an utilizable resource is not something that is just passed from hand-to-hand on a market for investing or speculation purposes, but something which has final users who will consume, utilize or otherwise put the thing to practical use. And this practical use by final users is how things got to the market in the first place. For e.g. dollars got to the market because they have final users the same as food. In other words, loan contracts and collaterals force people to use dollars for loan payments the same as hunger forces people to use food. Since all dollars (either paper or digital) are loan based, they are not just passed from hand to hand, but also utilized by borrowers who are forced to give goods and services to dollar investors, speculators, or regular users, when loan payment liability must be fulfilled. In the same way hungry people are forced to give money goods or services to food producers.

In a fraudulent investment scheme there are no final users, which is why a thing that lures members into the scheme is just passed from hand-to-hand, from member-to-member... until it is realized that the only profit can come from utilizable resources invested into the scheme.

And this finally brings us to bitcoin and the following question. When investors transfer their utilizable resources like money, goods or services into bitcoin do they end up with another utilizable resource, i.e. a resource which can be utilized by some final user? Well, the obvious answer is: no, they do not. Instead, they end up only with a record in a table(blockchain) or in other words, only with a number associated with their bitcoin address. And this number cannot be practically utilized like food is utilized by hungry people or dollar by borrowers, but it can only be passed from address-to-address, from hand-to-hand,  from member-to-member. And this is exactly how classical fraudulent schemes operate - they use something to lure people into the scheme, but the thing itself is non-utilizable, which is why it is just passed from one person to another. Once people realize that profit or utilizable resources can come from new investors only, the whole scheme collapses. And this is the ultimate fate of bitcoin. So, do not buy it.

Bitcoin has no owner and has a limited amount of supply. Why wouldn't we get it ourselves that we know it might be so expensive in the near future?

[khaled0111]

Being invisible for you doesn't mean it is a Ponzi nor it has no value. do you know even what Ponzi is!!!
It is a digital currency, you can't touch it, you can't see it.
If you can't use it doesn't mean that other people can't. Most of us use it regularly to buy goods and pay other Bitcoiners.

[proTECH77]

uncorroborated ideas, actually the real world usability of Bitcoin has not be realistic unlike some other coins in the market but that does not stop the fact that, Bitcoin is now be accepted as a means of payment from various vendors. Recently BWM now accept Bitcoin as a method of payment which can be translated into the world of usability of Bitcoin with a minor world usability stylistically, buy Bitcoin will be fine.

[NeuroticFish]

So, do not buy it.

I answered once to this thread and OP has deleted the thread. So here we are again:

~~~~
I edited the last part of your quote and replaced some words here and there, to give you something to think of. To make it fair, I bolded the things I've replaced. Imho Bitcoin is not so much different from Dollar as you'd like.

And this finally brings us to dollar and the following question. When investors transfer their utilizable resources like work, goods or services into dollar do they end up with another utilizable resource, i.e. a resource which can be utilized by some final user? Well, the obvious answer is: no, they do not. Instead, they end up only with printed paper/cotton or in other words, only with a number written down. And this number cannot be practically utilized like food is utilized by hungry people [...], but it can only be passed from account-to-account, from hand-to-hand,  from member-to-member. And this is exactly how classical fraudulent schemes operate - they use something to lure people into the scheme, but the thing itself is non-utilizable, which is why it is just passed from one person to another. Once people realize that profit or utilizable resources can come from new investors only, the whole scheme collapses. And this is the ultimate fate of dollar. So, do not buy it.

[darkangel11]

If I say that iPhone has a use, that mens it is used as communicating device, music player, gaming console, camera, and so on. If I say that Dollar has a use, that mens it is used for fulfilling loan obligations - which is the reason it came into existence in the first place. Passing iPhone or Dollar from hand to hand is not usage but transfer. And transfer is performed via infrastructure that has nothing to do with iPhone or Dollar.

You're making up theories to support your claim. When USD was created its main purpose wasn't to provide loans to people but to work as a means of payment. Bitcoin can and is working this way, and being a payment service equals having a use. If we went by your theory paypal and others would not have a use.

If I make a bet and win iPhone or dollars this is also not usage, but transfer of an item from one person to another. Hence transferring, moving or gambling with bitcoin is not the usage of Bitcoin. So, I will ask again: how Bitcoin is used?

If you can gamble using BTC, it's fulfilling the role of casino chips. Do casino chips have a use? Of course they do.
If you win a casino chip, it is a transfer of value from one person to another, but the chip is fulfilling its purpose.

[happy weblancer]

uncorroborated ideas, actually the real world usability of Bitcoin has not be realistic unlike some other coins in the market but that does not stop the fact that, Bitcoin is now be accepted as a means of payment from various vendors. Recently BWM now accept Bitcoin as a method of payment which can be translated into the world of usability of Bitcoin with a minor world usability stylistically, buy Bitcoin will be fine.

In addition, there are many financial instruments that aren't used by buyers, however, buyers are happy to give money for them - securities, gold. I think too the topic was chosen badly.

[Korkorjkk]

I will always believe in Bitcoin no matter what people say about it. Bitcoin has been the only coin that has been able to survive a lot of fluctuations in price and I definitely believe the price will bounce back to its peak by the end of the year.

[Slow death]

[...]

your posts:

Don't buy bitcoin because it won't be fine

A simple proof that Bitcoin has zero value

Why would a rational person pay 6,000 $ for Bitcoin if he can have its ...

Bitcoin actually does not exist



You're in the wrong place.

[Fulmand]

This is not a certain statement that makes bitcoin to become believable saying it won't be fine. For me even if there's no more signs of pumping price due to demand, it has still gained stabilized price for the entire month of October. If we find it hard to believe just look at the current graphical trend, there you'll see a greater potential that bitcoin will always be fine and will do more great surprises in the next coming days this month.

[yansen]

this is not just about a ponzi scheme or an empty pyramid without end users. Bitcoin still has end users, because basically end users are still in the consumption section (food, clothing, etc.) if you only see money as a reasonable cycle for a transaction. I will try to sort it. Money ----> Goods / services -----> consumers (end users. Bitcoin is quite simple, BITCOIN ----> MONEY ----> SERVICES / GOODS ----> CONSUMERS. This is the same , no difference.

[M4NDELL]

Let's move away from the theory and look at the practical side of the issue. Here I have Bitcoins, which I can store as an asset (which can multiply by the way), pay for some goods and services or transfer them to Fiat and buy as you say any utilizable resources. So I see absolutely no problemma in owning bitcoins.

[fxsurfer]

So you're just going to disregard all the technical features of Bitcoin that offer a wide range of use-cases?

What about time-locks? Tell me how you can time-lock fiat currently, so it cannot be spent for X amount of days or years?
Then, lightning network and atomic swaps. Can you instantly exchange one form of fiat currency for another? (And be able to spend the money immediately)

Then there's also the fact that Bitcoin isn't controlled by a single entity. That fact alone provides us with use-cases that we don't have when using fiat currency.
Is it not a unique feature that we're able to send money worldwide with very little fees and almost no waiting time?

Time-locks and non-controllability cannot change the fact I stated in the OP - in a bitcoin scheme, old investors can profit from new investors only, which is the definition of a Ponzi scheme. Features of bitcoin, or more precisely Bitcoin system, are just technical means by which this modern Ponzi operates. Bitcoin alone is a number associated with an address and as such it is an abstraction with no practical features.

[Indrawan77]

Well I don't agree that bitcoin is Ponzi or fraud, bitcoin is just medium, the one that makes bitcoin become fraud or ponzi is the people, so it's not bitcoin fault, bitcoin doesn't got physical shape but it doesn't mean that it doesn't got any value, stock also got no tangible form but it still can be valuable

Bitcoin is a very useful currency, it already give easiness for people to do a lot of transaction and the potential of bitcoin still widely open, there are a lot of people got huge profit by only holding bitcoin, this prove that bitcoin is a valuable commodity and currency

[fxsurfer]

Being invisible for you doesn't mean it is a Ponzi nor it has no value. do you know even what Ponzi is!!!
It is a digital currency, you can't touch it, you can't see it.
If you can't use it doesn't mean that other people can't. Most of us use it regularly to buy goods and pay other Bitcoiners.

A payment is the transfer of an item from one party to another, and not the usage of an item. Everything that exists on Earth can be transfered from one party to another, but that doesn't render it usable. So, the fact that you regularly buy goods and pay Bitcoiners with bitcoin has nothing to do with usability of bitcoin. Usability is the capacity of an item to satisfy human needs.

[DaWidyaa]

I think bitcoin is currently good for buying because prices are cheap and in my opinion this situation is an opportunity to buy.