The Russians V TMAN - peace treaty.

[TMAN]

Let me start this by adding a local rule, cryptohunter, smartpaymint, peloso, DabLjat and anyone else who has left me negative trust may not post in this thread. This is a serious subject.

Enough personal attacks and emotionally charged conversation.

IMO you guys need members on DT-2 - Alex I believe you are the most aware of forums working and politics due to all the great work you have been doing with regards to account farms. It has to be said the general awareness of the trust system in the Russian section is poor.

Alex_SR is now back on my trust-list as a gesture of goodwill to get this resolved, I do not want to exclude and alienate the whole Russian forum population, I just want this forum to be safe - Alex would you be willing to be the spokesman of the Russian section to get this resolved?

Edit - Killyou72/73 and any other of his alts are not permitted to post in this thread either.

Edit. DabLjat removed from excluded poster list in this thread.

Edit Thule may not post either

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[FFrankie]

Let me start this by adding a local rule, cryptohunter, smartpaymint, peloso, DabLjat and anyone else who has left me negative trust may not post in this thread. This is a serious subject.

Enough personal attacks and emotionally charged conversation.

IMO you guys need members on DT-2 - Alex I believe you are the most aware of forums working and politics due to all the great work you have been doing with regards to account farms. It has to be said the general awareness of the trust system in the Russian section is poor.

Alex_SR is now back on my trust-list as a gesture of goodwill to get this resolved, I do not want to exclude and alienate the whole Russian forum population, I just want this forum to be safe - Alex would you be willing to be the spokesman of the Russian section to get this resolved?

If you are asking one person, why not use the private message (PM) function?

I look forward to this coming treaty with Russia. Maybe you can make bitcointalk great again?


I think this is a very nice thing for you to be saying tman

[TMAN]

If you are asking one person, why not use the private message (PM) function?

KY yet again proving to be the village idiot, please don't get involved - Local rule adapted after this post.

[TalkStar]

 I do not want to exclude and alienate the whole Russian forum population, I just want this forum to be safe - Alex would you be willing to be the spokesman of the Russian section to get this resolved?

Thanks OP for letting russian forum members know that you are here to save them from any kind of scam activities. i know you don't care about what anyone post or think about you regarding taking steps to stop any kind of scam or abuses. You just care that forum members should be safe from those Evils. Welcome Alex to be a spokesman of Russian section

[Jet Cash]

@killyou - was it really necessary to quote the whole of the OP immediately after the post. I put you on ignore for doing it. To cover your point - maybe TMAN wants to get some community opinions about the situation.

I have been skipping over most of the posts, so I'm not really aware of the problem,but I would like to make a general point. Putin is trying to improve the image of Russia, and thus to build it into a respected participant in global trading. It is my opinion that he is managing to do this slowly. Russia is still being vilified by many in the Western world, and it is still seen as the enemy of last resort to justify the massive expenditure on armaments. There seems to be a number of Russians who are determined to undermine the reputation of Russian by their activities, and I hope they will start to realise the damage that they are doing to their country. As an example, I have a number of websites , and some of them include comment and review sections. The vast majority of the spammers and link dumpers purport to be Russian, and they use Russian email addresses or Russian domain links. The revenue from the activities must be pretty minimal, but the damage to the reputation of Russian is considerable.

I'd like to be able to buy Russian food, as I believe that it is becoming some of the healthiest in the world, but I won't be able to do this in England, unless the Russian spammers allow Russia to regain the trust of the Western countries.

[The Cryptovator]

I have already mentioned here that problem was started from Alex_Sr.  And its seems also solution is starting by Alex_Sr. Just noticed he is still exclude by LoyceV & Lauda, can you both reconsider of exclusion? I have seen he have changed his feedback style. After visited his feedback's I think he deserve it now. He made mistake previously and he has corrected it. I believe we can go forward to solve the issue about Russian war by adding back Alex_Sr.

Thanks to TMAN for add back and open door for solution. And welcome back Alex_Sr on DT network, hope you will not abuse your DT power.

[xtraelv]

This is a good start.

The Russian locale is quite upset with what they consider manipulation of the DT system.

They believe what they did is consistent with what Theymos instructed:

TMAN, you're coming across as a real asshole here. AFAICT, that topic is highly analogous to the English discussions. The main addition is that they're looking to get more local representation in DT1, which is very reasonable. I'd prefer if people not treat trust lists as an election, but if I had wanted nobody to ever think/talk/strategize about how trust lists affect DT1 selection, I would've kept the DT1 criteria secret.

They quickly found a quote from me where I previously documented that usernames starting with tildes are handled:

"If you want to trust someone whose name begins with a tilde, prefix their name with a backslash."   тe ecли вы xoтитe выcкaзaть дoвepиe юзepy ~XXX  в cвoй cпиcoк пpямoгo дoвepия зaпишитe \~XXX, ecли жe вы xoтитe выcкaзaть eмy нeдoвepиe зaпишитe ~\~XXX.

So they knew right away that the ~DefaultTrust account was harmless.

I see nothing concerning with xandry's actions there. Nothing there comes close to warranting deletion. Even if someone was openly talking about trying to form a strategic DT1 manipulation group for the express purpose of undermining the system, such a topic should not be deleted; rather, I'd look to handle this within the DT1 selection criteria.

While I don't understand Russian that well and I am not that often on their pages I have been chatting with a couple of the people involved.

I'd like to see this de-escalate. For the sake of everyone involved.

I do think that some Russian members have been treated unfairly. For instance for being tagged for merely posting in a thread that according to Theymos is their right to do.



This member has assisted me with translations for quite some time both on the forum and off the forum. He has also assisted me in understanding some of the Russian thinking, detecting and tracing Russian scammers and deciphering complex Russian legal documents and news articles.

I don't see anything that he personally has done that is with the intent to install a malicious group. I do see an intent from him to have decent Russian representation by people he knows and trusts so they can crack down on some of the Russian spammers and scammers.

I think it is important for the "old guard" to accept in some of the new. For them to learn from the experienced scam busters but also allow their local contacts, cultural understanding and language knowledge assist in detecting and preventing scammers and spam.

[TMAN]

I’ve made a positive step forward to resolve this, we need people to come forwards with solutions on resolution and education on the trust system in the local board. Members using the trust system as a popularity contest are crazy.

Let’s see what happens next

[actmyname]

I’ve made a positive step forward to resolve this, we need people to come forwards with solutions on resolution and education on the trust system in the local board. Members using the trust system as a popularity contest are crazy.

Let’s see what happens next

Cheers. Glad you're being civil.

Responsible trust list creation is the intention. Russian users have a right to be suspicious of the current DT system but if they're going to make their own trust lists, then they should tread very carefully... lest they inflate the ratings of people who would scam if given the opportunity.Local board representation is important but the users should still be frugal with their inclusions and positive ratings.
A dichotomy in the value of trust will only confuse new users who haven't yet built their own lists.

[LoyceV]

I have already mentioned here that problem was started from Alex_Sr.  And its seems also solution is starting by Alex_Sr. Just noticed he is still exclude by LoyceV & Lauda, can you both reconsider of exclusion? I have seen he have changed his feedback style. After visited his feedback's I think he deserve it now. He made mistake previously and he has corrected it. I believe we can go forward to solve the issue about Russian war by adding back Alex_Sr.

I've responded in The war with Russia: can we end it? Do we want to?, and don't want to cross-post here.
Short summary: I'll reconsider the exclusion later, as I think it's still too early. For now he's on DT2 already, I hope I can reinforce his position in the future.

[LFC_Bitcoin]

Is Killyou72/73 on DT2?

I remember him being an asshole to me a while back when I was just trying to get signature campaign payment for myself & everybody else in the 777Coin campaign when it was 12 weeks owed & late.

I had to PM The Pharmacist to step in to paint people red to resolve it & get payment.

[Alex_Sr]

Hi guys! Let's talk about the problems and misunderstandings. And how we can get out of this.

The first thing I think should be done - to make a list of questions and claims on both sides. We will be able to discuss them constructively without unnecessary emotions.

We will create a road map, follow it and eventually resolve all misunderstandings.

[The Cryptovator]

The first thing I think should be done - to make a list of questions and claims on both sides. We will be able to discuss them constructively without unnecessary emotions.

Let's talk about solution instead of problem. And solution has begun by adding you imo. I have invited them for come on this thread and solve the issue with constructive discussions. Just make slogans isn't going to change anything. Whatever discussed on Russian thread theymos already aware about it. So we don't need argument again. Just look how to solve the issue. This forum isn't dedicated for any nationality.

[suchmoon]

Hi guys! Let's talk about the problems and misunderstandings. And how we can get out of this.

The first thing I think should be done - to make a list of questions and claims on both sides. We will be able to discuss them constructively without unnecessary emotions.

A good start could be to get a solid group of Russian members to acknowledge and accept a few ground rules for how the trust system should be used, such as:

xtraelv has a good thread here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5099391
AverageGlabella https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5098422

Perhaps these can be cleaned up and translated to Russian. If there is anything that's going on the Russian board and not addressed in the above threads - that would be great to know as well.

In addition to that, it's important to have reputable and responsible non-DT members post trust feedback where appropriate as well so that there would be some way to evaluate their judgement if e.g. they're considered for DT in the future.

This would help to alleviate concerns that we saw immediately after the DT expansion how for example some new DT members posted a number of vague trust ratings without references etc. While there was probably no ill intent with most of those, it's hard to judge that without context.

From the other side I would still insist that anyone merely commenting in a controversial thread and/or being in a shady person's trust list should not be excluded or red-trusted. I know there has been some progress there, I haven't caught up with all threads yet.

Welcome back to DT2.

[TMAN]

Hi guys! Let's talk about the problems and misunderstandings. And how we can get out of this.

The first thing I think should be done - to make a list of questions and claims on both sides. We will be able to discuss them constructively without unnecessary emotions.

We will create a road map, follow it and eventually resolve all misunderstandings.

Yo Alex, sorry you got caught up in this I didn't really want to exclude you - I think you do amazing work on the forum and I am sure you will be about for years so welcome back to DT.

[Alex_Sr]

In addition to that, it's important to have reputable and responsible non-DT members post trust feedback where appropriate as well so that there would be some way to evaluate their judgement if e.g. they're considered for DT in the future.

Yes I wrote about this in Russian group:

4. Дaжe ecли вaши oтзывы пoкa нe являютcя тpacтoвыми - пишитe иx вce paвнo - этo вaш бaгaж нa бyдyщee и этo вaши oтзывы и вaш yникaльный oпыт!

4. Even if your feedback untrusted - write them anyway - it's your luggage for the future and it's your feedback and your unique experience!

99.99% of users believe that if their feedback are untrusted, then there is no sense to write them. Need to explain them that this is not so!

Yo Alex, sorry you got caught up in this I didn't really want to exclude you - I think you do amazing work on the forum and I am sure you will be about for years so welcome back to DT.

Thank you!

This would help to alleviate concerns that we saw immediately after the DT expansion how for example some new DT members posted a number of vague trust ratings without references etc. While there was probably no ill intent with most of those, it's hard to judge that without context.

Yes, it was also a new experience for me and I try to share this experience in our section!

[cryptohunter]

Let me start this by adding a local rule, cryptohunter, smartpaymint, peloso, DabLjat and anyone else who has left me negative trust may not post in this thread. This is a serious subject.

Enough personal attacks and emotionally charged conversation.

IMO you guys need members on DT-2 - Alex I believe you are the most aware of forums working and politics due to all the great work you have been doing with regards to account farms. It has to be said the general awareness of the trust system in the Russian section is poor.

Alex_SR is now back on my trust-list as a gesture of goodwill to get this resolved, I do not want to exclude and alienate the whole Russian forum population, I just want this forum to be safe - Alex would you be willing to be the spokesman of the Russian section to get this resolved?

Edit - Killyou72/73 and any other of his alts are not permitted to post in this thread either.

1. You do not get to silence free expression and relevant points being made on meta. That is why there are no self moderation threads here.
2. I have been told in the past when wishing for people not to post on my threads that is not my decision to make.

It is my opinion and substantiated by observable fact that a person (TMAN) who will give red trust by his own admission to someone for presenting facts related to scams and scammers is trying to corrupt the entire purpose of DT.

[TMAN]

1. You do not get to silence free expression and relevant points being made on meta. That is why there are no self moderation threads here.
2. I have been told in the past when wishing for people not to post on my threads that is not my decision to make.

It is my opinion and substantiated by observable fact that a person (TMAN) who will give red trust by his own admission to someone for presenting facts related to scams and scammers is trying to corrupt the entire purpose of DT.

Quoting for reference.

PLEASE STAY THE FUCK OUT OF MY THREADS

[The Sceptical Chymist]

You're allowed to set local rules like this, TMAN, so I'd report his post if I were you.  I can't tell you how many times I've started a bitcoin buying or selling thread where I specifically state that I don't want to deal with anyone under Full Member or for them to even post in the thread--and then a bunch of members under that rank proceed to ignore my local rule and make ridiculous offers.  Thankfully mods deleted most of those after I reported them.

I can't even remember what the genesis of all this drama was with the Russian local board, but I'm happy to see a discussion about it.  IMO it's not the whole section that's a problem, it's just a few idiots who are louder and prouder than everyone else.  That's usually the case with any of these issues.  Good luck with the diplomacy, bro.

[Alex_Sr]

A good start could be to get a solid group of Russian members to acknowledge and accept a few ground rules for how the trust system should be used, such as:

xtraelv has a good thread here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5099391

This topic is already translated yesterday:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5099644.0