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Author Topic: Trust flags  (Read 7853 times)
theymos
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June 12, 2019, 03:13:36 AM
Merited by Lauda (41), EFS (10), Welsh (10), Mr. Big (10), suchmoon (9), Foxpup (6), mprep (5), actmyname (5), joniboini (5), ICOEthics (5), franckuestein (3), LoyceV (2), DdmrDdmr (2), TalkStar (2), philipma1957 (1), malevolent (1), Daniel91 (1), Quickseller (1), redsn0w (1), o48o (1), Lafu (1), asu (1), richminded (1), finaleshot2016 (1), sujonali1819 (1), Steamtyme (1), bozo333 (1), sheenshane (1), iasenko (1), samcrypto (1), sncc (1), singlebit (1), DireWolfM14 (1), MagicByt3 (1)
 #1

I think that several of the problems with Trust were because three different goals were being jammed into one system:
 1. Getting a general idea of someone's trade history and trustworthiness in one convenient location, sort of like reviews on sites like EBay.
 2. Warning newbies/guests who don't know how to research properly about high-risk people.
 3. Deterring scams by creating a cost to scamming (ie. you'll "lose" a veteran account).
 
To improve this, I've split up these use-cases:

Use-case #1 is the old trust system, but I made the descriptions on the rating types a bit more general and removed the concept of a trust score. The numbers are now "distinct positive raters / distinct neutral raters / distinct negative raters". You should give these ratings for anything which you think would impact someone's willingness to trade with the person, but you should not use trust ratings to attack a person's opinions or otherwise talk about things which would not be relevant to reasonable prospective traders.

Use-cases 2 and 3 will be handled by a new system of flags. You can create a flag using a link on a person's trust page.

A newbie-warning flag is active if there are more people supporting such a flag than opposing it. It shows a banner on topics started by the flagged user for guests and for users with less than 7 days of login time. For all users, a "#" is shown next to their trust scores.

For contractual violations only, a scammer flag can be created. This is the only thing which causes the "Warning: trade with extreme caution" warning to return. It also triggers a banner similar to the newbie-warning banner which is visible to all users. A scammer flag requires 3 more supporting users than opposing users to become active.

A new scammer flag should be created for each separate alleged incident. In the spirit of forgiveness/redemption, scammer flags expire 3 years after the incident if the contract was casual/implied, and 10 years after the incident if the contract was written. These expiration times might be administratively changed in specific cases.

Creating or supporting a scammer flag is actively affirming a set of pretty clear fact-statements. If someone knowingly supports a flag containing incorrect fact-statements, then that is crystal-clear abuse, and I will seek to have such people removed from DT ASAP. People who are habitually wrong, even not knowingly, should also be removed.

Only users in your trust network count as supporting or opposing flags. For guests, the default trust network is used.

Also, a few miscellaneous changes:
 - All of the sections on users' trust pages are now paginated, so the page doesn't expand to massive size anymore.
 - The ordering of sent feedback is now consistent with the other sections.
 - "Risked BTC" is removed.

PM me if you find bugs.

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June 12, 2019, 03:27:24 AM
 #2

Just noticed the changes.
Trust score of The-one-above-all is zero now although he has 11 negative feedback.

Changes-
1. Trust score removed (Not a good idea in my opinion but I wish it help the overall system.)
2. Risked BTC removed (Good step since no use of it at all)
3. Neutral are visible. (Best change since in the previous system, neutral has no usage without clicking on the trust page.)

I am still confused about the flag   Huh

Got it. A valid link can create a flag.

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June 12, 2019, 03:28:05 AM
 #3

I think this is a great tweak to the system. I am glad to see that Neutral will now have a place beside the other 2 ratings. Going to take a while to get used to the flag system but I'm glad to see Newbies were given a grace period to be given extra guidance and warnings.

A new scammer flag should be created for each separate alleged incident. In the spirit of forgiveness/redemption, scammer flags expire 3 years after the incident if the contract was casual/implied, and 10 years after the incident if the contract was written. These expiration times might be administratively changed in specific cases.

I am wondering will users be able to remove a scammer flag early in the spirit of forgiveness. Do users in your trust network automatically support flags or do they need to take action?
Quote
Creating or supporting a scammer flag is actively affirming a set of pretty clear fact-statements. If someone knowingly supports a flag containing incorrect fact-statements, then that is crystal-clear abuse, and I will seek to have such people removed from DT ASAP. People who are habitually wrong, even not knowingly, should also be removed.

I think the actively seeking to have abuse removed from DT is the deterrent people finally needed to hear to make changes to how the system was working.

Edit: Got my neutral ratings, which I was asking about again shortly before this lol. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5095156.msg51435817#msg51435817




Edit: I see now that flags can't be removed.

I'm curious now about the having to create a topic before leaving a flag. I understand it for the contracts because there should be a scam accusation. Can we use a community thread for flagging potential scammers? I ask because it says you can create 1 thread if you tag flag many users, or can this be a simple thread that states I flag people for these reasons and leave it at that.

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June 12, 2019, 03:35:28 AM
 #4

I am wondering will users be able to remove a scammer flag early in the spirit of forgiveness. Do users in your trust network automatically support flags or do they need to take action?

The original accuser can withdraw their support, but they can't delete the flag. So other users could take it up even if they withdraw.

Flags need to be actively supported.

Here's a user with a flag that you could support/oppose:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=157669
And if you log out or use a newbie account, you can see the banner on their topic:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2690003.0

Can we use a community thread for flagging potential scammers? I ask because it says you can create 1 thread if you tag flag many users, or can this be a simple thread that states I flag people for these reasons and leave it at that.

Yes, but make sure that if someone goes there, it's clear what the flag is about.

Scammer flags should usually each have distinct topics.

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June 12, 2019, 03:36:21 AM
Merited by mprep (3), malevolent (1), redsn0w (1), Steamtyme (1)
 #5

Could we get page numbers as on boards/in PM's so I can jump to a specific page rather than just "Next"?

Not a big deal though.

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June 12, 2019, 03:37:32 AM
Merited by mindrust (1)
 #6

This has removed the "visibility" of just about every scammer in the system especially since all those previously marked as such lose their "warning" tags which while they didn't make a lot of difference it was better than nothing. In order to create a "warning"  theoretically one would have to go back, retag then create a thread for each neg they post with a new "flag" which will fill the system with messages.  The vast majority of users (mostly new) will see 3 small font numbers under a name which will have no meaning.
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June 12, 2019, 03:39:50 AM
 #7

How are the existing ratings converted into the new flags?

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June 12, 2019, 03:41:08 AM
 #8

How are the existing ratings converted into the new flags?

They're not. I decided that too many negative ratings aren't flag-worthy, and there's no way to automatically determine it. If you believe that a past negative rating is flag-worthy, you'll need to create a flag.

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June 12, 2019, 03:44:05 AM
 #9

How are the existing ratings converted into the new flags?

They're not. I decided that too many negative ratings aren't flag-worthy, and there's no way to automatically determine it. If you believe that a past negative rating is flag-worthy, you'll need to create a flag.
Can everyone create a flag? I have seen add flag option in users profile. Does this have any affect by DT member? Or everyone can create flag and if get support, it will be active.
Got it.
Only users in your trust network count as supporting or opposing flags. For guests, the default trust network is used.

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June 12, 2019, 03:45:28 AM
Last edit: June 12, 2019, 04:40:53 AM by hd49728
Merited by Quickseller (1), Piggy (1)
 #10

This is why I checked my profile page early today, I saw something strange, but did not know what it is (I meant different format).


A scammer flag requires 3 more supporting users than opposing users to become active.
It means if someone received 4 scammer supporting flags, while only get 1 scammer opposing flag; the account will be flagged as potential scammer (based on your clarification above). But I have a curious that it means the flag system does not account for weight of user trust. Everyone has same weight with their flags, only one per user. Do I get it right?
In addition, for this case:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=157669
By now, what I saw are:
- No matter how many supportive users to flag this account (5, 10, or 50) - with total supports are greater than opposition, with one oppostion for example, the flag status will be only displayed as Active / Inactive.
- There is no scale of flags: moderate, serious, extremely serious based on the ratio between Support/ Opposition.

What is difference between newsilike (Yellow Flag Box) and SafeDice (Red Flag Box)


They both get active flags, but one is in yellow flag, and another one is in red flag.
Their profile pages look different too:


Let me guess:
Yellow is for active flags.
Red: is for trust.
So, if someone got both red trust and active flag, their flag boxes will be displayed in Red.
Furthermore, Trust Warning is prioritised than flag:
If someone only get active flag: profile page will be shown with #, like newsilike.

But if someone get both red trust, and active flag: profile page will be shown with Trust Warning, there is no #, like SafeDice.

Lastly, what doest the meaning of smaller font size and grey color of supporters?

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June 12, 2019, 03:49:12 AM
 #11

Can everyone create a flag? I have seen add flag option in users profile. Does this have any affect by DT member? Or everyone can create flag and if get support, it will be active.

Anyone can create them, but support/opposition is only counted from people in your trust network. So if a newbie creates one, probably it will not be active from anyone's perspective, and it will thus have no effect unless it gets additional support from others.

These limits are in place:
 - Per 180 days, you can only give 1 flag of each type to a given user. So you can't give someone multiple written-contract-violation flags in 180 days, for example.
 - Globally, per year you can only create 1 flag per activity point you have, but at least 1/year.

This is why I checked my profile page early today, I saw something strange, but did not know what it is

Those are neutral ratings.

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June 12, 2019, 03:49:57 AM
 #12

Can we use a community thread for flagging potential scammers? I ask because it says you can create 1 thread if you tag flag many users, or can this be a simple thread that states I flag people for these reasons and leave it at that.

Yes, but make sure that if someone goes there, it's clear what the flag is about.

Scammer flags should usually each have distinct topics.

Okay I see from your example that you don't necessarily have to create a thread. You can link to any topic that shows reasoning. So in theory I went and created a flag from a Negative feedback I left for a Selfmod/locked topic. I could have used that topic as my link as opposed to this one I threw together

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June 12, 2019, 03:52:06 AM
 #13

Here's a user with a flag that you could support/oppose:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=157669

Ok, this user now has 3 supporters for the flag but still no "trade with extreme caution", only the "#" sign. What am I missing?

Edit: got it, it's the "red flag" (confusingly worded I must say) non-contractual flag. We may need better explanations on some of those things.

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June 12, 2019, 03:53:45 AM
 #14

Ok, this user now has 3 supporters for the flag but still no "trade with extreme caution", only the "#" sign. What am I missing?

A contract-violation flag has to be created for that.

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June 12, 2019, 03:54:02 AM
 #15

Whats the cure for newbie accounts leaving multiple retaliatory feedbacks, weird thing with this guy in hardware section just marking everyone negative. Then logged into this account and tagged lots of people just looking out for each other within the same topic and timestamps.
-edit with VERY false feedbacks about loans?

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June 12, 2019, 04:05:04 AM
 #16

So if I understand this correctly, when I create a contract violation flag I'm counted as the first supporter and I'll need two more if I want someone to have "trade with extreme caution". For the "newbie" flag I don't need anyone else to support it, it's shown immediately. I wish the "#" would be more prominent though, and the less-than-3-supporters contract violation flags had some sort of indicator too. Not red and scary, just more visible.

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June 12, 2019, 04:08:31 AM
Merited by suchmoon (4), Welsh (3)
 #17

Just to confirm, you are not allowed to create a contract violation flag unless you were personally harmed, correct?

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June 12, 2019, 04:09:00 AM
 #18

Here someone created a contract-violation flag:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=9
Since that's clearly a test account, feel free to support it or oppose it as a test.

Note that right now it's only linked in a small note on the target user's trust page:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=2626817
And listed on their inactive-flags page:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=2626817;page=iflags
And shown as an entry in the sender's sent ratings:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=2626816;page=sent

If it gets enough support, it will no longer be listed in "inactive flags", and will instead move to "active flags".

So if I understand this correctly, when I create a contract violation flag I'm counted as the first supporter and I'll need two more if I want someone to have "trade with extreme caution".

Correct.

You can create both a newbie-warning and contract-violation flag if you want.

Just to confirm, you are not allowed to create a contract violation flag unless you were personally harmed, correct?

Correct.

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June 12, 2019, 04:14:34 AM
Last edit: June 12, 2019, 04:25:49 AM by Quickseller
 #19

This should reduce the amount of drama around here, by a lot. It should also make the trust system more fair.


How is support/opposition to a flag displayed? Are those who are in my trust network always shown in larger font and first, and those outside of my trust network in smaller font and second, and then sorted by UID after determining if a person is in/out of my trust network?

edit:
On the pagination of trust pages, would it be possible to list pages number in a way similar to how page numbers are displayed on threads? If not, can we have a way to skip to the last page? I have a lot of sent trust ratings, and the current implementation makes it difficult to review my recently sent ratings.

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June 12, 2019, 04:23:17 AM
 #20

SafeDice has the honor of being the first to get an active scammer flag: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=396610

How is support/opposition to a flag displayed? Are those who are in my trust network always shown in larger font and first, and those outside of my trust network in smaller font and second, and then sorted by UID after determining if a person is in/out of my trust network?

Right, except that they're sorted by activity.

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