The Lightning Network FAQ

[ndalliard]

And for the base fee, free/0?

there are some people setting the base fee to zero because of a paper from rene pickhardt and stefan richter. i personally do the exact opposite. i don't charge a percentage fee, only a base fee

Also I am wondering about tor vs. clear-net nodes, is it possible to "dual-host" a node on tor AND clear-net at the same time or do I have to stick with one or the other?

you can have both at the same time, even ipv4, ipv6 and tor if you want

[psycodad]

And for the base fee, free/0?

there are some people setting the base fee to zero because of a paper from rene pickhardt and stefan richter. i personally do the exact opposite. i don't charge a percentage fee, only a base fee

Thanks, I see the point for setting base to zero and having a percentage fee only. I will let that sink but I guess it boils down to concentrate on one of the fees and set the other to 0.

Also I am wondering about tor vs. clear-net nodes, is it possible to "dual-host" a node on tor AND clear-net at the same time or do I have to stick with one or the other?

you can have both at the same time, even ipv4, ipv6 and tor if you want

Good to know, I have tried that now and it turns out it was easier than thought and meanwhile I am announcing ipv4, ipv6 and tor v3 addresses (needed to compile the latest tor version as the one that came with the OS didn't support v3 services).

[DaveF]

So I decided to put together an umbel box to compare it to raspiblitz / mynode

Hardware:
RPi4 4GB $55
Argon ONE M.2 Case for Raspberry Pi 4 $45
1TB M.2 sata drive $79
16GB SD card & Power Supply $15.00

So total cost $194 (+ tax)

Power draw during initial sync 1.1A


Still playing around with it. Will report in later.
VERY VERY slick GUI in my opinion.

Seems to be a nice build, I like the app store concept to add features / services.

Might be my new go-to node in a box.

-Dave

[darkv0rt3x]

So I decided to put together an umbel box to compare it to raspiblitz / mynode

Hardware:
RPi4 4GB $55
Argon ONE M.2 Case for Raspberry Pi 4 $45
1TB M.2 sata drive $79
16GB SD card & Power Supply $15.00

So total cost $194 (+ tax)

Power draw during initial sync 1.1A


Still playing around with it. Will report in later.
VERY VERY slick GUI in my opinion.

Seems to be a nice build, I like the app store concept to add features / services.

Might be my new go-to node in a box.

-Dave

Wow, that seems a bit expensive. Anyway, it looks nice, compact. Do you see any possible problems with temperatures and/or noise?

[DaveF]

So I decided to put together an umbel box to compare it to raspiblitz / mynode

Hardware:
RPi4 4GB $55
Argon ONE M.2 Case for Raspberry Pi 4 $45
1TB M.2 sata drive $79
16GB SD card & Power Supply $15.00

So total cost $194 (+ tax)

Power draw during initial sync 1.1A
[image removed]

Still playing around with it. Will report in later.
VERY VERY slick GUI in my opinion.

Seems to be a nice build, I like the app store concept to add features / services.

Might be my new go-to node in a box.

-Dave

Wow, that seems a bit expensive. Anyway, it looks nice, compact. Do you see any possible problems with temperatures and/or noise?

No issues, the fan is really quiet. You do have have to make sure that when assembling it the thermal pads that come with it are on the chips properly and that thay do touch the heatsinks on the case but that is about it.

As for the cost. I could have easily saved $30+ by not using an case that has a m.2 drive attachment included and going for a cheap generic one, and another $30+ by using a regular USB drive instead of a m.2 but I went for looks and style. And still came to under $200

So
This: https://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-HDTB410XK3AA-Canvio-Portable-External/dp/B079D359S6/
instead of this: https://www.newegg.com/silicon-power-ace-a55-1tb/p/N82E16820301414 (which has actually gone up a bit since I ordered it)

And
This: https://www.amazon.com/iUniker-Raspberry-Aluminium-Heatsink-Supply/dp/B07D3S4KBK/
instead of this: https://www.amazon.com/Argon-Raspberry-Support-B-Key-Compatible/dp/B08MJ3CSW7

Which would have brought the cost down to under $150 including tax.
Can also get a pre packaged RPi kit that has the Pi & Case & Power Supply & SD and saved another few dollars.

But none of it would not look as cool :-)

With the Argon case since it gives you full size HDMI ports and since it has the internal drive when I bring it someplace to show people it's easier to carry and easier to show the output on a TV without brining the mini-HDMI to full size cable.

-Dave

[darkv0rt3x]

So I decided to put together an umbel box to compare it to raspiblitz / mynode

Hardware:
RPi4 4GB $55
Argon ONE M.2 Case for Raspberry Pi 4 $45
1TB M.2 sata drive $79
16GB SD card & Power Supply $15.00

So total cost $194 (+ tax)

Power draw during initial sync 1.1A
[image removed]

Still playing around with it. Will report in later.
VERY VERY slick GUI in my opinion.

Seems to be a nice build, I like the app store concept to add features / services.

Might be my new go-to node in a box.

-Dave

Wow, that seems a bit expensive. Anyway, it looks nice, compact. Do you see any possible problems with temperatures and/or noise?

No issues, the fan is really quiet. You do have have to make sure that when assembling it the thermal pads that come with it are on the chips properly and that thay do touch the heatsinks on the case but that is about it.

As for the cost. I could have easily saved $30+ by not using an case that has a m.2 drive attachment included and going for a cheap generic one, and another $30+ by using a regular USB drive instead of a m.2 but I went for looks and style. And still came to under $200

So
This: https://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-HDTB410XK3AA-Canvio-Portable-External/dp/B079D359S6/
instead of this: https://www.newegg.com/silicon-power-ace-a55-1tb/p/N82E16820301414 (which has actually gone up a bit since I ordered it)

And
This: https://www.amazon.com/iUniker-Raspberry-Aluminium-Heatsink-Supply/dp/B07D3S4KBK/
instead of this: https://www.amazon.com/Argon-Raspberry-Support-B-Key-Compatible/dp/B08MJ3CSW7

Which would have brought the cost down to under $150 including tax.
Can also get a pre packaged RPi kit that has the Pi & Case & Power Supply & SD and saved another few dollars.

But none of it would not look as cool :-)

With the Argon case since it gives you full size HDMI ports and since it has the internal drive when I bring it someplace to show people it's easier to carry and easier to show the output on a TV without brining the mini-HDMI to full size cable.

-Dave

Yes, indeed. The looking also counts.
In my case, I'm not even sure how much I spent but I only bought the RockPro64, the M.2 drive and the heat sink. The case, I made it on my own and it's not even finished. I used acrylic boards. And I was also learning how to program stm32 chips to build a fan controller, based on M.2 drive temps. Butit's not finished because I kinda slacked at it for a while. :p But I have intentions to finish this.

[Rath_]

I don't think that anyone has noticed but a few days ago I updated the original post. I have added new questions and divided them into 5 sections and I also updated all of the answers. 2020 version is available here for comparison. I would appreciate any feedback.

[darkv0rt3x]

I don't think that anyone has noticed but a few days ago I updated the original post. I have added new questions and divided them into 5 sections and I also updated all of the answers. 2020 version is available here for comparison. I would appreciate any feedback.

Thanks for the awesome work.
Keep it going. We need to bring LN to the masses.
I'm in conversations (emails) with a couple of mayors of some cities in my country to try to find suitable places to do some workshops to get more people to know Bitcoin and integrate LN in their businesses...
That's what I'm contributing with and will also learn from those workshops and from this thread too.

Cheers
Dkvtx

[BlackHatCoiner]

I don't think that anyone has noticed but a few days ago I updated the original post. I have added new questions and divided them into 5 sections and I also updated all of the answers. 2020 version is available here for comparison. I would appreciate any feedback.

You removed some questions such as “What happens if some nodes go temporarily offline?” or “What discourages from running big nodes and overtaking the network?”. Would you mind explaining us what made you do so?

I have a question about this:

How much money can you make on running a Lightning Network node?

Unless you have a lot of coins, your earnings won't be enough to cover both hardware and maintenance costs.

Why should you have a lot of coins deposited in your LN node? Aren't the users supposed to deposit and be responsible for their channel's capacity? Also, what prevents someone from allowing free transactions (not even for 1 sat per tx)? Aren't lightning clients choosing the node with the lowest fee rate?

[ndalliard]

I have a question about this:

How much money can you make on running a Lightning Network node?

Unless you have a lot of coins, your earnings won't be enough to cover both hardware and maintenance costs.

Why should you have a lot of coins deposited in your LN node? Aren't the users supposed to deposit and be responsible for their channel's capacity? Also, what prevents someone from allowing free transactions (not even for 1 sat per tx)? Aren't lightning clients choosing the node with the lowest fee rate?

the earnings from a lightning node are in general proportional to the amount you have locked into your lightning node. meaning: the more liquidity you provide in channels, the more you can possibly earn (there are other factors, but generally speaking). and because the fees are relatively low (on lightning), you need a lot of channels with a lot of liquidty to earn a "decent" amount of sats

the biggest cost (besides hardware/electricity or hosting costs) are the onchain fees to open and close channels and atm it is pretty hard to cover them with what you earn with routing fees. the exception is the mentioned "unless you have a lot of coins"

maybe others have other experiences, but these are mine atm running my node for some months now

[Rath_]

You removed some questions such as “What happens if some nodes go temporarily offline?” or “What discourages from running big nodes and overtaking the network?”. Would you mind explaining us what made you do so?

The first question was rephrased to "What would happen if some nodes went temporarily offline?". As for the other one, I believe I wanted to include the answer to it in some other question. I will fix that later.

Also, what prevents someone from allowing free transactions (not even for 1 sat per tx)?

Nothing. Currently, I have two channels which charge zero fees and it's been a while since I routed any transaction through them. You are more likely to end up with an unbalanced channel if you don't set any fees.

[n0nce]

I have a question about this:

How much money can you make on running a Lightning Network node?

Unless you have a lot of coins, your earnings won't be enough to cover both hardware and maintenance costs.

Why should you have a lot of coins deposited in your LN node? Aren't the users supposed to deposit and be responsible for their channel's capacity?

I'm not sure if the previous replies already made it clear enough, but how I like to put it:
Sure, other users can open channels towards you, but then you can only receive and not send anything. They are thus only able to send funds to you and not use you as an intermediary node to send funds to another of your peers.

Your topology would look like this, with 4 connections for example:

Code:

A 1BTC ──────────┐
                 v 0BTC
B 1BTC ──> 0BTC BlackHatCoiner 0BTC <──── 1BTC C
                 ^ 0BTC
D 1BTC ──────────┘

A can't send to C, unless C has e.g. donated you some funds or bought something from you, so that the channels look like:

Code:

A 1BTC ──────────┐
                 v 0BTC
B 1BTC ──> 0BTC BlackHatCoiner 0.5BTC <────> 0.5BTC C
                 ^ 0BTC
D 1BTC ──────────┘

In this case, you'll be indeed able to forward a payment from A to C of up to 0.5BTC, because your C-channel allows it.

In conclusion, I think it's now easy to see how it's best for routing if you have many, large, and balanced (similar balances on both sides) channels.

The ability to send out money (to forward payments) is called outbound liquidity. To get it, you need to lock up own funds in channels (because the one who opens a channel of course then has the balance on their side of the channel).

There's a way that allows you to be guaranteed to get as much inbound as outbound liquidity (otherwise if you're the only one opening channels, sure, you can send, but you can't receive anything), which is something like a triangle swap or pentagon swap (https://lightningnetwork.plus/), or you can buy inbound liquidity. But for outbound, you need to lock up own funds. You need both

[Roversee]

Hi guys, I am new here... Where is the post where the "Lightning network" was first proposed on this forum?

[Timelord2067]

Is anyone using either Zap or Eclair wallets?  I have a half dozen channels open on each to various large nodes, but haven't had *any* movement for many months now.

On my old PC & phone I could see the balances shifting on a daily basis, but with the new hardware, no movement at all.

*edit* the Zap wallet is open near all the time, while the Eclair App is open on an ad-hoc basis.

[DaveF]

Is anyone using either Zap or Eclair wallets?  I have a half dozen channels open on each to various large nodes, but haven't had *any* movement for many months now.

On my old PC & phone I could see the balances shifting on a daily basis, but with the new hardware, no movement at all.

Are you talking about things like this with people routing through you:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5158920.msg56082955#msg56082955
Or other transactions?

I have found that routing through my node happens in bursts.
Almost like I am 2nd or 3rd choice for a lot of people so when #1 & #2 are down I get the traffic, but then months with nothing, then transactions again.

-Dave

[Timelord2067]

Are you talking about things like this with people routing through you:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5158920.msg56082955#msg56082955
Or other transactions?

All of the balances remain stagnant/unchanged unless I make a transaction myself. 

I have found that routing through my node happens in bursts.
Almost like I am 2nd or 3rd choice for a lot of people so when #1 & #2 are down I get the traffic, but then months with nothing, then transactions again.

-Dave

I *was* connected to a few of the users in these threads that have posted node addresses, but some of them have closed from the other end.  Perhaps in time the funds will start shifting again, but at the moment I'm wondering if my choices of nodes to connect to are the issue? 

[DaveF]

I *was* connected to a few of the users in these threads that have posted node addresses, but some of them have closed from the other end.  Perhaps in time the funds will start shifting again, but at the moment I'm wondering if my choices of nodes to connect to are the issue? 

What do you have your fees set to? If they are too high even if you are a more direct route most wallets will still choose a cheaper path.
Beyond that, the only other thought is that some people have connected to places they want to spend directly.

-Dave

[Rath_]

I have a half dozen channels open on each to various large nodes

That's very likely the cause. You should check if those large nodes have channels between themselves.

Almost like I am 2nd or 3rd choice for a lot of people so when #1 & #2 are down I get the traffic, but then months with nothing, then transactions again.

I have a channel to both Bitfinex and Nicehash. I routed quite a few large payments between these two nodes at the beginning. It turned out that they are connected directly so I guess their channel was often unbalanced at that time. Unfortunately, Bitfinex has changed their fee policy and I very rarely see any activity between those two channels now.

[JayJuanGee]

Hi guys, I am new here... Where is the post where the "Lightning network" was first proposed on this forum?

To inspire another member to do some work for you (in the event that s/he does not know the answer right of the top of his/her head), maybe you could explain some efforts (work) that you have already attempted in this matter, and maybe even through such efforts, you would end up finding the information that you are seeking and further be able to provide that information to the rest of us who are following this thread?  

Wow a hypothetical way to actually contribute value!!! rather than appearing as someone who merely is striving to cause work upon others.

[Timelord2067]

What do you have your fees set to? If they are too high even if you are a more direct route most wallets will still choose a cheaper path.
Beyond that, the only other thought is that some people have connected to places they want to spend directly.

Neither Zap for PC nore Eclair for Android have any mechanism to change the fees collected.  Zap you can set an upper limit for fees paid on out bound (presumably from yourself) while Eclair you can set a satoshi per kb on the block-chain transactions, but not for Lightning.

I have a half dozen channels open on each to various large nodes

That's very likely the cause. You should check if those large nodes have channels between themselves.

I know one node does have two nodes (one each clear and onion) however not all of the nodes I currently have are particularly large.