Bitcoin Forum
November 06, 2024, 03:05:25 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 28.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Projected Minimum Cost per BTC over the next year  (Read 18873 times)
chriswilmer
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1008
Merit: 1000


View Profile WWW
September 06, 2014, 01:48:31 AM
 #61

Clearly the next step is to model amortized hardware costs. I would think that those will never become negligible. Perhaps it could modeled as some multiple of the electricity cost... for example, maybe the amortized hardware cost will always be twice the cost of power, so that the "apparent" cost of electricity is actually tripled.
anton000
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 21
Merit: 0


View Profile
September 11, 2014, 02:30:45 AM
 #62

When calculated in the OP over the time period from March 14, 2013 to March 13, 2014 the average increase in the difficulty and hash rate was 23.92% per adjustment period and the average length of each adjustment period was 11.38 days.

Recalculated over the period June 29, 2013 to June 29, 2014 it was 23.45% and 11.41 days.

Now, recalculating over the period August 24, 2013 to August 31, 2014 it is 21.12% and 11.63 days.

Assuming the network growth rate over the next year is the same as it was this last year we get:

Code:
                                Hash Rate   Power      Energy            Cost        Cost
     Date          Difficulty        TH/s      MW         MWh        $/Period       $/BTC
---------  ------------------  ----------  ------  ----------  --------------  ----------
11-Sep-14      33,220,936,877     237,808     238      66,349      $6,634,853     $131.64
23-Sep-14      40,236,446,759     288,028     288      80,360      $8,035,984     $159.44
04-Oct-14      48,733,473,526     348,853     349      97,330      $9,733,002     $193.12
16-Oct-14      59,024,880,009     422,523     423     117,884     $11,788,392     $233.90
28-Oct-14      71,489,598,585     511,750     512     142,778     $14,277,833     $283.29
08-Nov-14      86,586,583,575     619,820     620     172,930     $17,292,988     $343.11
20-Nov-14     104,871,710,060     750,712     751     209,449     $20,944,876     $415.57
02-Dec-14     127,018,241,359     909,246     909     253,680     $25,367,960     $503.33
13-Dec-14     153,841,618,762   1,101,258   1,101     307,251     $30,725,098     $609.62
25-Dec-14     186,329,486,300   1,333,819   1,334     372,135     $37,213,544     $738.36
05-Jan-15     225,678,056,071   1,615,491   1,615     450,722     $45,072,202     $894.29
17-Jan-15     273,336,153,086   1,956,646   1,957     545,904     $54,590,430   $1,083.14
29-Jan-15     331,058,561,407   2,369,846   2,370     661,187     $66,118,694   $1,311.88
09-Feb-15     400,970,635,767   2,870,303   2,870     800,815     $80,081,465   $1,588.92
21-Feb-15     485,646,557,708   3,476,447   3,476     969,929     $96,992,858   $1,924.46
05-Mar-15     588,204,117,648   4,210,593   4,211   1,174,756    $117,475,554   $2,330.86
16-Mar-15     712,419,512,763   5,099,775   5,100   1,422,837    $142,283,732   $2,823.09
28-Mar-15     862,866,387,600   6,176,732   6,177   1,723,308    $172,330,835   $3,419.26
08-Apr-15   1,045,084,236,901   7,481,119   7,481   2,087,232    $208,723,207   $4,141.33
20-Apr-15   1,265,782,371,309   9,060,961   9,061   2,528,008    $252,800,823   $5,015.89
02-May-15   1,533,086,956,002  10,974,431  10,974   3,061,866    $306,186,635   $6,075.13
13-May-15   1,856,840,218,301  13,291,983  13,292   3,708,463    $370,846,321   $7,358.06
25-May-15   2,248,962,841,151  16,098,949  16,099   4,491,607    $449,160,670   $8,911.92
06-Jun-15   2,723,892,885,897  19,498,682  19,499   5,440,132    $544,013,236  $10,793.91
17-Jun-15   3,299,117,405,623  23,616,363  23,616   6,588,965    $658,896,517  $13,073.34
29-Jun-15   3,995,816,323,188  28,603,604  28,604   7,980,405    $798,040,547  $15,834.14
10-Jul-15   4,839,642,281,734  34,644,038  34,644   9,665,686    $966,568,646  $19,177.95
22-Jul-15   5,861,665,181,962  41,960,074  41,960  11,706,861  $1,170,686,065  $23,227.90
03-Aug-15   7,099,516,184,307  50,821,092  50,821  14,179,085  $1,417,908,463  $28,133.10
14-Aug-15   8,598,773,298,472  61,553,356  61,553  17,173,386  $1,717,338,634  $34,074.18
26-Aug-15  10,414,639,578,109  74,552,032  74,552  20,800,017  $2,080,001,680  $41,269.87
07-Sep-15  12,613,975,712,232  90,295,733  90,296  25,192,510  $2,519,250,952  $49,985.14

In other words something has got to give by the end of the year, or actually before December 1


BurtW: Im a correct in assuming that these costs are just for power/electricity usage. Other costs, such as the average price of mining equipment / THs isnt taken into account?
samsonn25
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 882
Merit: 1003



View Profile
September 11, 2014, 10:15:09 PM
 #63

So next September it will be 381 times harder to mine for BTC.   Unless the price rises to $181,000 to make it equal to mining today.  Something has to give.
molecular
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019



View Profile
September 21, 2014, 01:59:07 PM
 #64

When calculated in the OP over the time period from March 14, 2013 to March 13, 2014 the average increase in the difficulty and hash rate was 23.92% per adjustment period and the average length of each adjustment period was 11.38 days.

Recalculated over the period June 29, 2013 to June 29, 2014 it was 23.45% and 11.41 days.

Now, recalculating over the period August 24, 2013 to August 31, 2014 it is 21.12% and 11.63 days.

Assuming the network growth rate over the next year is the same as it was this last year we get:

Code:
                                Hash Rate   Power      Energy            Cost        Cost
     Date          Difficulty        TH/s      MW         MWh        $/Period       $/BTC
---------  ------------------  ----------  ------  ----------  --------------  ----------
11-Sep-14      33,220,936,877     237,808     238      66,349      $6,634,853     $131.64
23-Sep-14      40,236,446,759     288,028     288      80,360      $8,035,984     $159.44
04-Oct-14      48,733,473,526     348,853     349      97,330      $9,733,002     $193.12
16-Oct-14      59,024,880,009     422,523     423     117,884     $11,788,392     $233.90
28-Oct-14      71,489,598,585     511,750     512     142,778     $14,277,833     $283.29
08-Nov-14      86,586,583,575     619,820     620     172,930     $17,292,988     $343.11
20-Nov-14     104,871,710,060     750,712     751     209,449     $20,944,876     $415.57
02-Dec-14     127,018,241,359     909,246     909     253,680     $25,367,960     $503.33
13-Dec-14     153,841,618,762   1,101,258   1,101     307,251     $30,725,098     $609.62
25-Dec-14     186,329,486,300   1,333,819   1,334     372,135     $37,213,544     $738.36
05-Jan-15     225,678,056,071   1,615,491   1,615     450,722     $45,072,202     $894.29
17-Jan-15     273,336,153,086   1,956,646   1,957     545,904     $54,590,430   $1,083.14
29-Jan-15     331,058,561,407   2,369,846   2,370     661,187     $66,118,694   $1,311.88
09-Feb-15     400,970,635,767   2,870,303   2,870     800,815     $80,081,465   $1,588.92
21-Feb-15     485,646,557,708   3,476,447   3,476     969,929     $96,992,858   $1,924.46
05-Mar-15     588,204,117,648   4,210,593   4,211   1,174,756    $117,475,554   $2,330.86
16-Mar-15     712,419,512,763   5,099,775   5,100   1,422,837    $142,283,732   $2,823.09
28-Mar-15     862,866,387,600   6,176,732   6,177   1,723,308    $172,330,835   $3,419.26
08-Apr-15   1,045,084,236,901   7,481,119   7,481   2,087,232    $208,723,207   $4,141.33
20-Apr-15   1,265,782,371,309   9,060,961   9,061   2,528,008    $252,800,823   $5,015.89
02-May-15   1,533,086,956,002  10,974,431  10,974   3,061,866    $306,186,635   $6,075.13
13-May-15   1,856,840,218,301  13,291,983  13,292   3,708,463    $370,846,321   $7,358.06
25-May-15   2,248,962,841,151  16,098,949  16,099   4,491,607    $449,160,670   $8,911.92
06-Jun-15   2,723,892,885,897  19,498,682  19,499   5,440,132    $544,013,236  $10,793.91
17-Jun-15   3,299,117,405,623  23,616,363  23,616   6,588,965    $658,896,517  $13,073.34
29-Jun-15   3,995,816,323,188  28,603,604  28,604   7,980,405    $798,040,547  $15,834.14
10-Jul-15   4,839,642,281,734  34,644,038  34,644   9,665,686    $966,568,646  $19,177.95
22-Jul-15   5,861,665,181,962  41,960,074  41,960  11,706,861  $1,170,686,065  $23,227.90
03-Aug-15   7,099,516,184,307  50,821,092  50,821  14,179,085  $1,417,908,463  $28,133.10
14-Aug-15   8,598,773,298,472  61,553,356  61,553  17,173,386  $1,717,338,634  $34,074.18
26-Aug-15  10,414,639,578,109  74,552,032  74,552  20,800,017  $2,080,001,680  $41,269.87
07-Sep-15  12,613,975,712,232  90,295,733  90,296  25,192,510  $2,519,250,952  $49,985.14

In other words something has got to give by the end of the year, or actually before December 1

Thanks so much for this.

Yes, something has to give.

If it's the price, some people will come out of the woodwork and say this is proof that "price follows hashrate". I will still disagree.

If the hashrate actually goes down (like in 2011), at least part of the reasoning that "hashrate follows price" is supported (namely: "if price is lower than production cost, miners will switch off their equipment").

If nothing gives (bitcoin price is below production cost) we know: Either at least some miners are economically irrational or we're making wrong assumptions about either the production cost or the price miners are able sell at.

Interesting times ahead Wink


PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
samsonn25
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 882
Merit: 1003



View Profile
September 21, 2014, 02:06:58 PM
 #65

"We Are Fuc*ed"  I repeat We Are Fuc*ed"
Adrian-x
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000



View Profile
September 21, 2014, 04:27:30 PM
 #66

"We Are Fuc*ed"  I repeat We Are Fuc*ed"

Lol I see it as a win win.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Adrian-x
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000



View Profile
September 21, 2014, 04:37:15 PM
 #67

If nothing gives (bitcoin price is below production cost) we know: Either at least some miners are economically irrational or we're making wrong assumptions about either the production cost or the price miners are able sell at.

Interesting times ahead Wink

I wouldn't assume some miners are economically irrational, I'd think it would reflect more on the nature of proponents of Bitcoin and how they value it.

Still this is another historic juncture.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
greaterfool
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 24
Merit: 0


View Profile
September 21, 2014, 08:49:10 PM
 #68

When calculated in the OP over the time period from March 14, 2013 to March 13, 2014 the average increase in the difficulty and hash rate was 23.92% per adjustment period and the average length of each adjustment period was 11.38 days.

Recalculated over the period June 29, 2013 to June 29, 2014 it was 23.45% and 11.41 days.

Now, recalculating over the period August 24, 2013 to August 31, 2014 it is 21.12% and 11.63 days.

Assuming the network growth rate over the next year is the same as it was this last year we get:

Code:
                                Hash Rate   Power      Energy            Cost        Cost
     Date          Difficulty        TH/s      MW         MWh        $/Period       $/BTC
---------  ------------------  ----------  ------  ----------  --------------  ----------
11-Sep-14      33,220,936,877     237,808     238      66,349      $6,634,853     $131.64
23-Sep-14      40,236,446,759     288,028     288      80,360      $8,035,984     $159.44
04-Oct-14      48,733,473,526     348,853     349      97,330      $9,733,002     $193.12
16-Oct-14      59,024,880,009     422,523     423     117,884     $11,788,392     $233.90
28-Oct-14      71,489,598,585     511,750     512     142,778     $14,277,833     $283.29
08-Nov-14      86,586,583,575     619,820     620     172,930     $17,292,988     $343.11
20-Nov-14     104,871,710,060     750,712     751     209,449     $20,944,876     $415.57
02-Dec-14     127,018,241,359     909,246     909     253,680     $25,367,960     $503.33
13-Dec-14     153,841,618,762   1,101,258   1,101     307,251     $30,725,098     $609.62
25-Dec-14     186,329,486,300   1,333,819   1,334     372,135     $37,213,544     $738.36
05-Jan-15     225,678,056,071   1,615,491   1,615     450,722     $45,072,202     $894.29
17-Jan-15     273,336,153,086   1,956,646   1,957     545,904     $54,590,430   $1,083.14
29-Jan-15     331,058,561,407   2,369,846   2,370     661,187     $66,118,694   $1,311.88
09-Feb-15     400,970,635,767   2,870,303   2,870     800,815     $80,081,465   $1,588.92
21-Feb-15     485,646,557,708   3,476,447   3,476     969,929     $96,992,858   $1,924.46
05-Mar-15     588,204,117,648   4,210,593   4,211   1,174,756    $117,475,554   $2,330.86
16-Mar-15     712,419,512,763   5,099,775   5,100   1,422,837    $142,283,732   $2,823.09
28-Mar-15     862,866,387,600   6,176,732   6,177   1,723,308    $172,330,835   $3,419.26
08-Apr-15   1,045,084,236,901   7,481,119   7,481   2,087,232    $208,723,207   $4,141.33
20-Apr-15   1,265,782,371,309   9,060,961   9,061   2,528,008    $252,800,823   $5,015.89
02-May-15   1,533,086,956,002  10,974,431  10,974   3,061,866    $306,186,635   $6,075.13
13-May-15   1,856,840,218,301  13,291,983  13,292   3,708,463    $370,846,321   $7,358.06
25-May-15   2,248,962,841,151  16,098,949  16,099   4,491,607    $449,160,670   $8,911.92
06-Jun-15   2,723,892,885,897  19,498,682  19,499   5,440,132    $544,013,236  $10,793.91
17-Jun-15   3,299,117,405,623  23,616,363  23,616   6,588,965    $658,896,517  $13,073.34
29-Jun-15   3,995,816,323,188  28,603,604  28,604   7,980,405    $798,040,547  $15,834.14
10-Jul-15   4,839,642,281,734  34,644,038  34,644   9,665,686    $966,568,646  $19,177.95
22-Jul-15   5,861,665,181,962  41,960,074  41,960  11,706,861  $1,170,686,065  $23,227.90
03-Aug-15   7,099,516,184,307  50,821,092  50,821  14,179,085  $1,417,908,463  $28,133.10
14-Aug-15   8,598,773,298,472  61,553,356  61,553  17,173,386  $1,717,338,634  $34,074.18
26-Aug-15  10,414,639,578,109  74,552,032  74,552  20,800,017  $2,080,001,680  $41,269.87
07-Sep-15  12,613,975,712,232  90,295,733  90,296  25,192,510  $2,519,250,952  $49,985.14

In other words something has got to give by the end of the year, or actually before December 1

Thanks so much for this.

Yes, something has to give.

If it's the price, some people will come out of the woodwork and say this is proof that "price follows hashrate". I will still disagree.

If the hashrate actually goes down (like in 2011), at least part of the reasoning that "hashrate follows price" is supported (namely: "if price is lower than production cost, miners will switch off their equipment").

If nothing gives (bitcoin price is below production cost) we know: Either at least some miners are economically irrational or we're making wrong assumptions about either the production cost or the price miners are able sell at.

Interesting times ahead Wink




I love the technical analysis, and it's good solid math, but there is a flaw I keep noticing (think I commented on another BurtW thread about them a while back...)

The global energy supply available over time isn't a static number as measured today - it will increase annually, and by a decent amount each year (in 2018 we could potentially have an additional 10% more power available globally than we do today.)

In the interest of adding more fundamental data, here's a link to the U.S. Energy Information Administrations projections for US energy production and imports forecasted through 2021. http://www.eia.gov/oiaf/aeo/tablebrowser/#release=AEO2014&subject=0-AEO2014&table=1-AEO2014&region=0-0&cases=full2013full-d102312a,ref2014-d102413a

The price of energy could also spike due to heightened geopolitical volatility playing havoc with supply and demand. (E.g. do you think it will be easier or harder to get oil from Russia/Iraq/the Mid-East in the next four years than it is today, or will things just stay the same? Will we bring more renewable energy online to make up for potential scarcity of any existing energy sources? Enough for a surplus? Will there be no scarcity at all?)

"May you live in interesting times." Smiley Keep the data coming BurtW, this is awesome. It might be worth it to correlate the price of BTC with the price of, for example, the NYSE Energy index (http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/index/nye.id)...
Driv3n
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250


View Profile
September 21, 2014, 09:15:31 PM
 #69

Very interesting thread and analysis. It's crazy how much the cost to produce a bitcoin is increasing. Will definitely keep my eye on this thread.
marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349


Eadem mutata resurgo


View Profile
September 22, 2014, 02:46:40 AM
 #70

I want to see some good analysis of the thermodynamics behind all this ...

... and if you cannot bring entropy, the second law and the irreversibility of information flow into it I'll probably dismiss it.

wilth1
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 63
Merit: 10


View Profile
September 22, 2014, 04:23:53 AM
 #71

it's also worth considering that many small timers might continue mining and hoarding at a production-price loss whereas mfger/megafarms that sell to cover payables simply would not.

perhaps difficulty increases will slow and the price will naturally follow your analysis, albeit at a more graduated pace? regardless, it will be very interesting to see what happens in the coming months
greaterfool
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 24
Merit: 0


View Profile
September 22, 2014, 01:50:18 PM
 #72

I predict the rise of the portable ultra efficient "my office or co-working space won't notice the power draw" miner Smiley There will be a sharper divide between people who are paying for power at scale and those who are using surplus power with no additional realized costs. Make friends with people who have long term contracts in data centers with unused power and empty cages, is my advice.
BurtW (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2646
Merit: 1137

All paid signature campaigns should be banned.


View Profile WWW
September 22, 2014, 04:27:03 PM
Last edit: September 22, 2014, 04:37:57 PM by BurtW
 #73

To answer a question that has been asked a few times.  This analysis only used the electrical power and estimated cost of that power.  The cost of equimpment is ignored.  Basically the cost of equipment, infrastructure, etc. will effectively reduce the power consumption of the network so this is an estimate of the maximum power the network will rationally attempt to consume given the price of BTC.  In practice it will not consume these numbers due to these other costs factors.

Our family was terrorized by Homeland Security.  Read all about it here:  http://www.jmwagner.com/ and http://www.burtw.com/  Any donations to help us recover from the $300,000 in legal fees and forced donations to the Federal Asset Forfeiture slush fund are greatly appreciated!
zvs
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1680
Merit: 1000


https://web.archive.org/web/*/nogleg.com


View Profile WWW
September 22, 2014, 04:35:07 PM
 #74

The urban heat island around Shanghai has increased in intensity by over 40% in the last 2 years.
mikerbiker6
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 392
Merit: 250


View Profile
September 22, 2014, 08:38:19 PM
 #75

very interesting, +1.
If we will wait a few more months miners will not let go of their coins this cheaply, so they will sell higher.
But efficiency gets higher and more expensive miners get pushed out, leaving the super efficient miners.
So this means that it will still take many months.
But hodl on.

Participate and Earn on the Letstalkbitcoin forum letstalkbitcoin.com
Stratobitz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1022
Merit: 1010



View Profile
September 23, 2014, 11:54:54 AM
 #76

Great thread. Thanks BurtW for this fantastic analysis on the numbers that drive Bitcoin.

I think it would be impossible to argue that the next few months will be very interesting. In many ways the tables are now turning against the miner manufacturers. Increased difficulty coupled with a sliding price will place the miner companies in a terrible place, where they themselves can no longer use their rigs to mine prior to sale of the miner itself, and also rendering the miner unsellable.

A mining rig company like Bitfury, and also a large Bitcoin holder could in effect deliberately push and hold  BTC prices down and put tremendous pressure on their competitors, if not shut their lights off for good.

Bitcoin will survive. Not so sure about the mining rig producers however.

Strato
mmeijeri
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 714
Merit: 500

Martijn Meijering


View Profile
September 23, 2014, 12:02:48 PM
 #77

I don't think the miner developers are in a bad position at all, I expect retail mining to disappear and mining companies to mine with their own hardware and also sell hardware wholesale to data center operators. They've already made the investments necessary, now they only have recurring costs to deal with. They have their mask sets, now they can cheaply order new wafers every now and then.

ROI is not a verb, the term you're looking for is 'to break even'.
Finksy
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1022
Merit: 1003



View Profile
September 23, 2014, 08:49:13 PM
 #78

Just thought I'd try to contribute something.  Your model relies on a fixed 1 W/GHs which we know is not realistic, so I thought I'd try to make a model to predict future chip efficiency using past and current developments of both BitmainTech's and Avalon's chips, as they are 2 of the bigger players that have been around for a while.  Please feel free to interject where you see any of my assumptions as unrealistic:



Both Exponential formulas come out somewhat closely, so I feel it could be useful to predict future technology as far as efficiency goes.  We know there has to be a point of diminishing returns.




IBM 2880W PSU Packages: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=966135 IBM 4K PSU Breakout Boards & Packages: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1308296 
Server PSU-powered GPU rig solutions! https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1864539  Wallet address: 1GWQYCv22cAikgTgT1zFuAmsJ9fFqq9TXf 
ruins
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 98
Merit: 10


View Profile
September 24, 2014, 03:46:12 AM
 #79

So next September it will be 381 times harder to mine for BTC.   Unless the price rises to $181,000 to make it equal to mining today.  Something has to give.

why it will be harder to mine for BTC? you mean the price will be down and few people mine?
ruins
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 98
Merit: 10


View Profile
September 24, 2014, 03:55:40 AM
 #80

Humans are not rational beings either.

Many will keep mining at a loss with the hope btc will reach new heights.

well, BTC does have a promising future.
Pages: « 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!