Bumping changes on some boards

[JollyGood]

From what I can see the way this is set-up is open to a different type of abuse, a kind of out of the frying pan and in to the fire type of situation because the bump-power can be purchased as well as mini-bumping still going on directly from posting.

This new strategy does not exactly fill me with confidence - unless I am missing something from the OP

Only users who earned merits in the last year can bump and their bump power is proportional to the amount of earned merits and it's not unlimited. That's a HUGE difference from what we had before when any newbie could bump by posting any nonsense any number of times.

Well that alleviates some of my concerns about the new system. I guess over a period of time things will become clearer as and when sock-puppet newbies post but they fail to pump the thread then hopefully they will give up and leave the forum.

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[DireWolfM14]

This confused me a little:

I wouldn't sweat it, but the basics (as I understand them,) are your super-bump power is caped by your earned merit or your activity for the last year, whichever is less.  If you've been steadily active for the last year, and you've earned a boatload of merit you're base bumping power is 364.  If you've earned fewer than 364 merit in the last year, your base bumping power is equal the number of merit you've earned.  If you're activity for the last year is 14, and you've earned more than 14 merit, your base bumping power is 14.  Then the power of each user's super-bumps decays with use.  So it's somewhat exclusive to those who are active and contribute, and the decaying affect helps make it resistant to abuse.

But as theymos said:

But really, people should just superbump good topics whenever they think to do so, and not worry about this sort of strategizing.

[tranthidung]

So, there are two components to sort topics (by default option):
- Topic bump score
- Post time.
Between two components, topic bump score is the first priority.

Topic bump score depends on:
- Bumpers' bump power: depends on activity and earned-merits last year.
- Mini bump: through post
- Super bump: through bump button

It almost means that users with more earned merits last year have more bump power, because earning merits is issue, not earning activity.

I imagine that will we see another type of abuse, bump power abuse?
- Thread owners can pay fees to bump their threads, both through mini bump (posts) and super bump (bump button).
- If it actually happens, how will the forum deal with it?
With data on user bumping activities, that admin is likely has; and new rules added to unofficial rules of the forum, that I am not sure.

The minimum period between bumps to get maximum effects on bump score is 36 hours (when previous bump effects on bump score entirely decayed), so one user can sell their bump each 36 hours, or nearly 19 times per month (I use 28 days/ month for this calculation). I think it is still a significant effects, and might lead to another black market.

Code:

. di (24*7*4)/36
18.666667

Do you know where the idea of bump button come from and when did it occur?

Q: Where the idea of bump button come from?
A: It came from community generated suggestions to improve the forum (+ eventual voting on them). It takes theymos' attention, and after around one year, he brings it to life.

An example: a bump button sounds good as a fix for certain very visible problems, but it also codifies a broken system. People would use bots to bump all of their threads constantly, giving "industrial" posters a huge advantage over casual posters. A captcha could maybe help a little, but there are services where you can pay a tiny fee to have captchas solved for you. (Which opens another question: maybe a comparatively tiny fee should be allowed as an alternative to having you solve a captcha.) A better solution would be to replace the concept of traditional bumping with something quite different, with different bumping models for different types of sections. But that requires further thought. If implementing a bump button was free, perhaps it'd be worthwhile to at least do it for now and fix a few minor problems with bumping today. But since it's a clearly-imperfect solution, this isn't even on my miles-long to-do list.

[asche]

Wondering about one thing.

I guess topics are first ranked by "bumping" and then by latest post if I'm not mistaken.

Does this function's implementation mean that using posts to bump topics in said sections is now forbidden and should be reported?

[tranthidung]

I guess topics are first ranked by "bumping" and then by latest post if I'm not mistaken.

Exactly. I mentioned above and theymos wrote in OP. Topics will be sorted by topic bump score first. Then if two topics have same bump score, they will be sorted by the second factor, which is latest post time.
It is what topics will be sorted by default options in those three boards, but if one want to use old sorting option, s/he can modify it by using non-default sorting.

Non-default sorting

On the targeted boards, sorting under this scheme is the default. You can go back to the older sorting by clicking the "last post" column header.

On the non-targeted boards, you can see the sorting under this scheme by using a link like https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=1.0;sort=bump;desc . I'm not sure if this is at all useful. (It's also possible to super-bump topics on these boards, though there's no real incentive to do so.)

I don't think posting will result in reports if users make good posts. There are two ways to bump topics, through posts or through bump button. I just don't know that bump through posts will be counted with "Bump!" posts (that is likely what you asked) or with "Contentful posts (not Bump!)" or both of them will be considered as bump through posts.

Topic bump score depends on:
- Mini bump: through post
- Super bump: through bump button

[asche]

I guess topics are first ranked by "bumping" and then by latest post if I'm not mistaken.

Exactly. I mentioned above and theymos wrote in OP. Topics will be sorted by topic bump score first. Then if two topics have same bump score, they will be sorted by the second factor, which is latest post time.
It is what topics will be sorted by default options in those three boards, but if one want to use old sorting option, s/he can modify it by using non-default sorting.

Non-default sorting

On the targeted boards, sorting under this scheme is the default. You can go back to the older sorting by clicking the "last post" column header.

On the non-targeted boards, you can see the sorting under this scheme by using a link like https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=1.0;sort=bump;desc . I'm not sure if this is at all useful. (It's also possible to super-bump topics on these boards, though there's no real incentive to do so.)

I read that. That's why there is an actual question with a question mark under that line. But thank you for your effort.

[LoyceV]

Can we implement a deactivate button for the mini bump? For example I dont want to bump this thread when I post a comment if I'm able to deactivate my bumping feature and post as a newbie it would be perfect.

Since you've posted there already, I have a theory for you to test. Based on this:

Mini bumps

If you haven't posted in a topic in the last 7 days, posting in it adds 1% of your base bump power to the topic's bump score. Deleted posts count against the 7-day limit, but not the topic's bump score.

The way I read it, you can delete your post so it still counts for the 7-day limit, but doesn't add to the bump score anymore. Then, you can post there again, and it won't add to the bump score because you've posted within the last 7 days already.
If it works, this is a workaround I can live with

Unless I misinterpret this, and theymos meant the bump score won't be reduced after deleting a post.

[nutildah]

Some are already using their powerbumps to bump shitcoins, it would appear. Some people have no shame!

Not surprising.  Anything that can be abused on this forum will get abused eventually.  And usually it doesn't take too long.

To level with you I was just being sarcastic and self-deprecatory, as it was my own ANN thread that I was referencing, for a coin actually named "Shitcoin." (It died in 2015   ). I fully expect a new economy to form around the bumping of shitcoin threads going into the future.

This thread was last posted in 2015: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=740159.0


How and why is at the top of the list in-between recently posted threads: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=159.0

I was just testing out the power of my powerbump, which is quite powerful apparently. Then two other people have recently posted in it, so its back in the #2 position. Maybe somebody else even powerbumped it, I don't know...

[DdmrDdmr]

There are a few aspects I’m not quite sure on:

1)   Is the bumping score transferred to the thread taking into account all decimals, or is it truncated, rounded at some point?
i.e. A profile with 1 earned merit over the last year Mini Bumps a thread (by posting), and thus adds 1% of his base power -> 1 earned merit * 1% = 0,01 bump points transferred.

2)   Mini Bumps do not reduce the Base bump power, and I believe that Super Bumps do not reduce it either directly (since they use a “Modified Bump Power” base_power*0.85super_bumps_last_30_days).
That would mean that Mini Bump power is in no way affected by Superbumps. Is that correct ?.

I figure that monitoring is internal to the forum (which is probably good), although I don’t know how “abuse” may be detected/handled (i.e. people selling their bump power). There are, as of last Friday, around (I have not/cannot cross that with activity in that period of time, nor crossed against banned profiles):

109 profiles that have earned >=  364 merits in the last year.
122 profiles that have earned  between 180 and 363 merits.
184 profiles that have earned  between 90 and 179 merits.
308 profiles that have earned  between 45 and 89 merits.
454 profiles that have earned  between 22 and 44 merits.
1142 profiles that have earned  between 10 and 21 merits.
7913 profiles that have earned  between 1 and 9 merits.

[hosseinimr93]

2)   Mini Bumps do not reduce the Base bump power, and I believe that Super Bumps do not reduce it either directly (since they use a “Modified Bump Power” base_power*0.85super_bumps_last_30_days).
That would mean that Mini Bump power is in no way affected by Superbumps. Is that correct ?.

From my understanding Modified bump power is calculated and is only used for super bumps. If the points users give to topics by mini bumps was supposed to deducted from the base bump power, It would be mentioned by Theymos as it is clearly mentioned for modified bump power which is affected by super bumps.

So,
1. Mini bump power only depends on base bump power. If you mini bump 100 topics, all of those 100 topics will be affected by a same point as long as number of your merits doesn't change.
2. Super bump power depends on base bump power and number of your previous super bumps. (That's why modified bump power has been introduced)

[JollyGood]

This thread was last posted in 2015: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=740159.0


How and why is at the top of the list in-between recently posted threads: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=159.0

I was just testing out the power of my powerbump, which is quite powerful apparently. Then two other people have recently posted in it, so its back in the #2 position. Maybe somebody else even powerbumped it, I don't know...

Thanks for the explanation. You have a powerful superbump, what a way to test the system  

I had my finger on the 'bump' link on a couple of occasions to test the power of my bump but never pressed it. Am waiting for the right time to see what it does...

[suchmoon]

The Altcoin ANN section is in perfect order right now. An actual bona fide shitcoin is at the top.

The way I read it, you can delete your post so it still counts for the 7-day limit, but doesn't add to the bump score anymore. Then, you can post there again, and it won't add to the bump score because you've posted within the last 7 days already.
If it works, this is a workaround I can live with

I was trying to test it in this topic: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5160697.msg52426061#msg52426061

But I need to wait 24 hours to be able to delete the post, which means it will contribute to the score for at least that long.

That would mean that Mini Bump power is in no way affected by Superbumps. Is that correct ?.

Yes:

You can do both mini bumps and super bumps -- they don't interfere with each other.

Does this function's implementation mean that using posts to bump topics in said sections is now forbidden and should be reported?

Posts can still contribute to bumping the topic but only if the poster has earned merits and only once per user per 7 days. Rules haven't changed AFAIK, so if there are multiple posts in a row you can still report them.

[ahmadakbari]

Does this function's implementation mean that using posts to bump topics in said sections is now forbidden and should be reported?

Posts can still contribute to bumping the topic but only if the poster has earned merits and only once per user per 7 days. Rules haven't changed AFAIK, so if there are multiple posts in a row you can still report them.

I think asche is referring to those posts that are made only to  bump a topic without any other purpose. For example some one just writes "bump" and post it.
Before these changes in bumping of topics, users were allowed to do this once per 24 hours. Are they still allowed to do that?

[suchmoon]

I think asche is referring to those posts that are made only to  bump a topic without any other purpose. For example some one just writes "bump" and post it.
Before these changes in bumping of toics, users were allowed to do this once per 24 hours. Are they still alowed to do that?

I think so as it can contribute to the bump score.

[AL1CE M]

Can we still bump if we have 0 merits?

[suchmoon]

Can we still bump if we have 0 merits?

No. I mean you can post but it will not bump the thread.

[Theb]

For now, I am intentionally not making it public who bumped each topic, since that way you can't prove that you bumped anything, and this may prevent people from selling their bumps as easily. I don't particularly object to making the approximate bump scores or bump powers public, but I didn't do this yet.

I would be more happy if bump scores or any kind of proof that you bump a topic would remain private indefinitely since people will just take advantage of it just like whaf they did with the merit system. And you are right allowing a public data on this kind of system would just give members a chance to sell it as some kind of service just like what some other redditors are doing now on selling their upvotes.

[tk808]

This is a great and much needed change, especially to ANN and Tokens section. There's a lot of criticism and trying to understand how the system really works, but a great step forward towards legitimatizing altcoins on BTT once again.

[suchmoon]

The way I read it, you can delete your post so it still counts for the 7-day limit, but doesn't add to the bump score anymore. Then, you can post there again, and it won't add to the bump score because you've posted within the last 7 days already.
If it works, this is a workaround I can live with

I was trying to test it in this topic: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5160697.msg52426061#msg52426061

But I need to wait 24 hours to be able to delete the post, which means it will contribute to the score for at least that long.

I have now deleted the post but the thread remains where it was. Not sure if the change in the score was not sufficient for it to drop down the list or what. Based on this example:

if it's self-moderated, then the poster has some incentive not to delete your post, since doing so undoes your bump.

I would have thought that deleting my own post should have changed the score.

Edit 20 minutes later: now the thread dropped to page 6 so perhaps it does subtract bump points of deleted posts, just takes time to recalculate scores. BTW Altcoin ANN page 6 is where the zero bump score threshold currently seems to be. The thread I was testing is total crap and likely has zero score and all the other threads around it are neatly sorted by last post timestamp so I guess they all have zero scores. All those fake conversation bumps that are still going on would get them no higher than page 6 ATM. Sounds good to me.

Another thought: AFAIK the 24-hour post delete limit in ANNs was implemented to prevent shitbumpers from deleting their previous bump. Now that the bumping system is completely different perhaps the limit is no longer needed.

[LoyceV]

For now, I am intentionally not making it public who bumped each topic, since that way you can't prove that you bumped anything, and this may prevent people from selling their bumps as easily. I don't particularly object to making the approximate bump scores or bump powers public, but I didn't do this yet.

I would be more happy if bump scores or any kind of proof that you bump a topic would remain private indefinitely since people will just take advantage of it just like whaf they did with the merit system. And you are right allowing a public data on this kind of system would just give members a chance to sell it as some kind of service just like what some other redditors are doing now on selling their upvotes.

This works both way: even without showing who bumped a topic, someone could still sell a bumping service. For example, someone could say: "Pay me $10 now and you'll see the topic bumped within 2 minutes". That would be enough evidence for the buyer to know the seller can deliver, while there's no evidence for spam-hunters to identify which accounts are being used.
If bumps would be public, it would at least be obvious which accounts are used, and unlike before these changes, bump services can no longer use worthless Newbie accounts. Once caught, they stand to lose their limited supply of accounts that earned Merit.