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Author Topic: Bitmain Introduces the S17+ and T17+  (Read 3323 times)
MoparMiningLLC
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April 18, 2020, 08:58:04 PM
Last edit: April 21, 2020, 02:14:10 AM by frodocooper
 #141

I may just order one too - well two maybe but on separate orders - I am hoping that they dont include shipping in the calculation for the tariff...

Edit:

I ordered one T17+ and it is supposed to ship next week. lets see if I actually get it before halving and if they rape me with tariff - technically purchase is under 800 the damn shipping should not be counted but it isnt always the case and sometimes they charge for it. So I shall soon see.

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April 19, 2020, 11:19:39 PM
Merited by frodocooper (10)
 #142

Found via Artemis3’s excellent response:
I hope everyone who gives a darn about Bitcoin avoids doing business with Bitmain in the future. Bitmain has been a long standing bad actor in the cryptocurrency ecosystem. We shouldn't forget this just because they replaced their CEO.  As far as I know they have done nothing to undo the damage they've caused or otherwise make amends.  We can see by their continued open source license violations in their products that they haven't changed.

I will award merit to every post that makes a compelling statement against buying from bitmain.

Artemis3 said everything that I usually would have, plus more; and the discussion thus got me thinking about Bitmain.  What is their strategy, on a deeper level?

Well, let’s talk business.  Most people on this forum know me for being suicidally principled; but I do understand business, in a purely pragmatic sense.  And, “business is business.”  Mining is a for-profit activity; miners obviously don’t want to shoot themselves in the foot financially with poor business decisions based only on idealism.  Of course, one of Bitcoin’s finest qualities is how effectively it aligns self-interest incentives with the greater good of Bitcoin; and if Doing The Right Thing makes business sense, then you must be incredibly stupid to do otherwise.

My flash of insight here:  When you buy from Bitmain, you are funding a hostile competitor.  Not only as a miner, but as an investor in Bitcoin.  Moreover, you are incurring a dependency of your business on a hostile competitor.  All of this is sheer idiocy, from a perspective of “strictly business”.



I observe that Bitmain attacked Bitcoin’s uniqueness.  Anyone who has studied the nature of money should know how detrimental an attack on uniqueness is, without further explanation.  Moreover, Bitmain are not only willing, but overly eager to make ASIC miners for altcoins—even for altcoins that deliberately attempt ASIC-resistance.  I followed the Zcash backpedalling on their ASIC-resistance promise, and Monero’s repeated hardforking of their proof-of-work algorithm while they developed RandomX (and if there were one altcoin feature that I could steal for Bitcoin, it would be RandomX—yes, I know why that will probably never happen; don’t bother explaining).  Bitmain has invested serious resources on all fronts to make a giant, undifferentiated market of lots of coins, in which all coins are just coins mined by Bitmain.

Bitmain is not only an ASIC maker:  They are an ASIC-maker whose self-evident strategy is to proliferate the market for mining hardware in every way they can, no matter how that may damage the market in other ways.  They don’t want for any particular coin to be uniquely valuable:  They want a general market of cryptocurrencies where one is pretty much the same as another, and no matter which one you choose, you will buy a Bitmain miner for it.  Meanwhile, they themselves can mine them all, and dump them all—it’s all the same to them.

At this juncture, I recall a vintage Joel on Software strategy letter:

Quote from: Joel Spolsky (2002-06-12)
Smart companies try to commoditize their products’ complements.

My analysis:  Bitmain seeks to commoditize cryptocurrencies as such.  Note the plural.

For HODLers of any cryptocurrency, this is disastrous.  For miners of any cryptocurrency, this is even worse, insofar as you are paying for the privilege of having your worst strategic competitor actively attempt to undermine your whole market.

Miners who buy Bitmain are, of course, buying from their direct competitor in the mining business.  I have never understood why people do this.  You pay Bitmain top bits for fast hardware, and thus fund Bitmain and Bitmain-operated pools to compete against you in hashrate.  You even buy from a direct competitor who was most probably deploying covert ASICBOOST in secret back around early 2017; so you know that they will play dirty tricks to gain an unfair competitive advantage against you.  You also know, as Artemis3 pointed out, how generally hostile they are to their own “customers”, with their history of control-freakery over business-critical capital hardware that you thought you actually bought from them—even to the point that they have sometimes “sold” you miners that came with their ability to remote-brick “your” business (!).  And you keep paying them!?

All this is simple, tactical, obvious at the surface; how do people not realize it, other than total thoughtlessness?

Whereas my point here is much deeper, and accordingly even scarier.  If you HODL any coin—not only Bitcoin, but any coin—then Bitmain is working to undermine the long-term value of your investment on a strategic level.  And if you fork over your capital investment money to Bitmain for mining hardware, you are forking yourself over in the long term.

Think business-wise.  Think about how best to grow and protect your own wealth in the long term.  Be guided accordingly.



This is a specific, concrete instance of a general, abstract point that I have been urging for awhile now:

If you have any Bitcoin, whether you have 1000 BTC or only a few precious satoshis, then an attack on Bitcoin is an attack on your wallet.  You may or may not care about Bitcoin’s noble principles.  You will defend those principles, to defend the value of your money.

Part of the genius of Bitcoin is that it turns greed and selfishness toward the common good:  If you have Bitcoin, you want to protect your savings, so you must stand against people who try to devalue it.  Otherwise, you risk losing your savings.

Everybody who has Bitcoin, has an incentive to protect Bitcoin.  If you have Bitcoin, then you are making the world a better place when you defend the value of your own money.  You can’t avoid protecting Bitcoin, if you want to protect your own money.  And if you have Bitcoin, then an attack against Bitcoin is not only an attack against some idealistic theory:  It’s a financial attack on you, personally!  Of course, you should be angry about that.

As a Bitcoin idealist, I understand that many people couldn’t care less about Bitcoin principles.

As a HODLer who gets hit in the wallet by the destructive market effects of fork-attacks against Bitcoin, I do not understand why many other people don’t seem to care about the value of their own money.  Please.  Be more selfish.  It’s good for Bitcoin, and good for you.

Full disclosure:  I have a personally significant financial interest in Bitcoin.  I have skin in the game, and Bitmain’s strategy is thus adverse to me, me, me.  A considerable part of my enmity for Bitmain is driven by pure self-interest.  You see how that works?

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April 20, 2020, 12:00:32 AM
Merited by frodocooper (3)
 #143

-snip-

Quite a few words you got to say.

How about this...

You make me a better and more efficient miner and I'll buy from you instead of Bitmain.

Good idea?
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April 20, 2020, 12:14:27 AM
Last edit: April 21, 2020, 02:19:52 AM by frodocooper
Merited by nullius (1)
 #144

[...]

I quoted for a reason.
In case it gets deleted I have a few copies in my pm's.
Love the argument but off topic I want to save it for reference.

Here goes counter point:

once ltc was invented btc lost it's unique status.

All pow coins are simply commodities to be traded like stocks.
All pos coins are figments of imagination actually worse then mined coins.

Only one coin attempts to be unique and resist asic mining xmr  and the problem is the algo can be used by other coins.

So after play and mining and really pushing crypto coins as a storage of wealth for years. I gave up as The game is done on many levels.

I mine and sell and convert to fiat.  Basically because of the argument you are giving. My piece of the pie will never affect the industry as I will never be at 1% of any big coin.  But I have enough gear and cheap enough power to make money at this.

I do Hold 1 coin doge I have more then 1 million of them.

I saw btc go from 6 to 20,000  a factor of 3333x. It is now at 7,200  it will never do 3333 x 7,200 = 23,997,600 usd

No crypto coin will do 3333x what it is now if it is pow via asic and clonal it is basically an alt.  So since I see no way to rescue pow coins and go back to the 'good' old days I have adapted.

I will use my low power and make a small certain profit that way.

Thats why I purchased the t17+ with a coupon since no one else will offer a price that good and get the gear to me in under 10 days.

Do I like it no I do not.  But last year when what's miner was selling the m10 at I good price i purchased them.

If they offer the m30s at a good price I would buy some they don't.

MY only edge is a good power price.  If I have to buy from bitmain I will, Since I don't see POW lasting more then 10 years I think the 2028 ½ ing will deal the industry a death blow. BTW so does bitmain which is why they have done exactly what you are complaining about.

If you figure a way to stop them let us know.

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April 20, 2020, 12:29:32 AM
 #145


I quoted for a reason

In case it gets deleted I have a few copies in my pm's

Love the argument but off topic I want to save it for reference.

Thanks.  Though if answers to gmaxwell’s explicit request from the previous Bitmain thread get deleted, I think there will be bigger problems than my losing a post. :-)

P.S., if you like any of my Bitcoin advocacy arguments, please feel free to copy and share anywhere you want, with proper attribution of my authorship.  For the greater good of Bitcoin (which is in the self-interest of anyone who has skin in the game...).



-snip-

Quite a few words you got to say.

How about this...

You make me a better and more efficient miner and I'll buy from you instead of Bitmain.

Good idea?

Those quite-a-few-words explain reasons why that is a shortsighted, self-defeating business strategy.

Try reading.  Good idea?


Having said my piece, I will probably not make a habit of posting in Bitmain threads here.

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April 20, 2020, 12:46:34 AM
Last edit: April 21, 2020, 11:49:20 PM by frodocooper
 #146

you could post this all here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5144362.0

As it is a mining topic that involves every coin.
I realized that when the asic companies attacked gpu mining and every developer folded other then xmr that pow will die and hodl is fucked.
I go over hundreds of ideas to prove that wrong and I come up with the conclusion that asic resistance is a must and we need more then just xmr doing that.
I also realized that cloning a coin and algo sharing can't work long term.

So here we are

BTC
BSV
BCH sharing sha-256 and all of us know that anyone of them would eat the others alive if they could

So I gave up on hodl I make my fairly small mining profit and convert it to cash and gear more then coin.

gear 80%
coin 10%
cash 10%
debt  0%

my current holdings ratio

mostly gear which is as below

sha-256  70%
scrypt     10%
cpu xmr  10%
gpu         10%

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April 21, 2020, 02:53:26 AM
Last edit: April 21, 2020, 11:55:53 PM by frodocooper
Merited by favebook (5)
 #147

[...]

I do agree to the majority if not all of it, however, what you seem to be missing is the fact that mining is treated as a "very short business valued in FIAT".

It is safe to assume that at least 95% of miners do it for profit and not for the love of bitcoin, the proof is, they shut their mining gears the minute they become unprofitable FIAT wise.

This alone should give you a good idea of why 95% of miners wouldn't listen to you in the first place. Now let me dig a little deeper into the "very short business valued in FIAT"

You see the thing with crypto mining, in general, is that the calculations are done very short term, in most cases, it's merely a period of 6 months on average, in other words, every mining purchase decision they make is valid for that short period of time, your theory is 100% valid if these businesses were to run over longer periods of years or decades, in that case, one would really feel that they are indirectly competing against themselves when buying from Bitmain.

These business "cycles" being too short due to the nature of mining gears' efficiency and the instability of BTC value in FIAT, the power bills are paid in FIAT and not in bitcoin, the "If I don't do it, someone else will" theory and the fact that most miners don't CARE about bitcoin price next year because all that matters is how fast they return their investment, all of these factors makes everything you just said pretty meaningless to them.

Even altcoin diversity is viewed as an advantage rather than the opposite, as far as FIAT profitability is concerned, the more alts the more profit, if for whatever reason Bitcoin fails they get to mine another coin.

So let's just assume 'hypothetically' the miners are greedy businessmen who want to make more $$ and don't give a damn about bitcoin, shouldn't you be blaming everyone else who doesn't mine bitcoin but owns it? in other words, shouldn't bitcoin hodlers be doing something about it rather than telling miners not to purchase bitmain gears? Roll Eyes

A person X who pretends to love the technology, cares about its future and sees the wrongdoings of miners, they should at worst case scenario buy a non-bitmain gear and mine bitcoin even if they had to pay more for the power bill, so this phrase here

As a HODLer who gets hit in the wallet by the destructive market effects of fork-attacks against Bitcoin, I do not understand why many other people don’t seem to care about the value of their own money.  Please.  Be more selfish.  It’s good for Bitcoin, and good for you.

You are asking miners to sacrifice profit for the good of their and your bitcoin, in the long run, we know that sacrificing profit for bitcoin is equal to spending money on bitcoin, why don't you suggest that everyone who owns bitcoin should mine at a loss using a non-bitmain gear to protect the value of their money and thus protecting bitcoin?

if everybody who claims to care about bitcoin was to sacrifice a very little portion of the BTC ""which sitting in their wallets doing nothing" bought a small miner from a bitmain competitor, then bitmain gears wouldn't make up 10% of the total hash rate, but almost nobody does that, nobody is willing to give today to receive next year, and when they try to spend bitcoin they would pay the LOWEST fees they can, I have yet to see a person who sends bitcoin with higher fees when not required to just to support those miners who are sacrificing profit by not buying from bitmain, so now tell me, how do you expect miners to do all of this for you when you aren't doing anything? i find it lame that non-miners expect miners to leave money on the table for them when they are not willing to pay an extra sat per byte for miners. Undecided

favebook brought up a very valid argument which you seem to underestimate, allow me to make a better one on his behalf, or rather reconstruct in a  (funny/lame) way.

nullius, since you are an owner of bitcoin and your duty, is to protect it just as much as its mine, pay me the price difference between Bitmain and Microbt gears and I will stop buying from Bitmain.  Roll Eyes

or in worst-case scenario.

nullius, please pay more fees for your transactions and stop paying the lowest you can so that mining profitability becomes reasonable enough for me to buy from another mining gears manufacturer.  Undecided

If you can't do that, you shouldn't be expecting him to leave money on the table, sacrifice is a two way street.

On a side note: all the "yous" are not directly pointed to nullius, it's just a representation of a miner speaking to a Hodler, nothing personal whatsoever, and I am by no means encouraging anyone to buy from Bitmain, in fact, if you have the choice and you can afford it you should always avoid Bitmain.

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philipma1957
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April 24, 2020, 09:54:41 AM
 #148

my t17+ is on its way .

hope it arrives monday the 27th

I will get 12-14 days in before the ½ ing


 https://bitcoinblockhalf.com/

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MoparMiningLLC
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April 24, 2020, 12:41:23 PM
Last edit: April 25, 2020, 02:11:43 AM by frodocooper
 #149

mine is supposed to arrive on the 27th too. I am more curious to see if I will be charged the tariff or not. really depends on whether they count the shipping or not, I guess.

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April 24, 2020, 01:23:42 PM
Last edit: April 25, 2020, 02:12:02 AM by frodocooper
 #150

I use dhl they have been pretty good.

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April 24, 2020, 01:26:59 PM
Last edit: April 25, 2020, 02:12:21 AM by frodocooper
 #151

I went with fedex this time, it was about $30 cheaper on shipping - last time I used DHL the total with shipping was 808 - they hit me for the 28% so but on the order before that which was 850ish they only hit me with 2.5%.

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April 24, 2020, 01:29:32 PM
Last edit: April 25, 2020, 02:12:46 AM by frodocooper
 #152

If I pay the lower tax I will order again.

my points are at 52  we still do not know what that gets.

I have a 47 dollar coupon  which drops the gear to 762-47 = 715

This will give us  2x 58th = 116 and 70 th = 186 th

we will bring the 3 pieces to clifton  and shut down 29 s9's  they do 310th

but 310-186 = 124th   less hash  some time in may.

we will hash for  a month or two after that and add some s19 or s19 pro.

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April 24, 2020, 01:59:41 PM
Last edit: April 25, 2020, 02:13:06 AM by frodocooper
 #153

nice on the coupon - I dont have any Sad mine all went away when btc crested 10k a while ago. but let's see if we can both dodge the tariff! lol.

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April 24, 2020, 04:00:24 PM
Last edit: April 25, 2020, 02:14:05 AM by frodocooper
 #154

my points are at 52  we still do not know what that gets.

Not sure if you saw my post the other day... But basically, not even Bitmain knows what they are gonna do with it. It was probably an experiment...

Quote from: Bitmain
Dear ---------,

Thanks for your consultation!
We have not decided how to use point system yet.

Best regards,
Yucheng
Bitmain

There's an answer to all of your questions. Smiley

P.S. I bolded things I edited from their email as they are quite bad at English.
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April 24, 2020, 04:19:16 PM
Last edit: April 25, 2020, 02:14:25 AM by frodocooper
 #155

I went from 44 to 52 with the new order of the t17+ so they still add the points on.
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April 27, 2020, 03:30:00 AM
 #156

I went with fedex this time, it was about $30 cheaper on shipping.

I think most of these new gears fall into volumetric weight, where the L*W*H aka dimensions of the package exceeds the actual weight they charge you for what's called volumetric weight, depending on how each courier calculates the fees, in many cases, you will find that different miner cost less to ship via FedEx than DHL and it's pretty normal to see the exact opposite, in fact, even ordering more than 1 miner can sometimes make you pay more, I remember when ordering the worst gears of my life (S9k) shipping smaller quantities cost less, for example, if I order 3 miners together I pay 100$ each but if I ship only 2 I pay 90$ each ( rough figures), so you should always check the best combination and the best rate at the time of buying, those differ pretty much from time to time.

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MoparMiningLLC
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April 27, 2020, 04:09:13 AM
 #157

I see they raised the prices too - to over 800 so i for sure will not be ordering another now. my next one should arrive tomorrow though.

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April 27, 2020, 11:20:49 AM
 #158

I see they raised the prices too - to over 800 so i for sure will not be ordering another now. my next one should arrive tomorrow though.

762 now 860

oh well

how not to sell one more to me.

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MoparMiningLLC
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April 27, 2020, 06:50:52 PM
 #159

whelp mine was supposed to arrive today - however, it shows it didnt leave China until 5:45am today

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April 27, 2020, 07:11:11 PM
 #160

whelp mine was supposed to arrive today - however, it shows it didnt leave China until 5:45am today


Monday, April 27, 2020   Location   Time   Piece

17   Shipment not arrived; customs status updated   CINCINNATI HUB, OH - USA   08:51
   
16   Departed Facility in HONG KONG - HONG KONG   HONG KONG - HONG KONG   07:31   
1 Piece

15   Processed at HONG KONG - HONG KONG   HONG KONG - HONG KONG   07:05   
1 Piece


Now says this Friday.

That price rise was 762 to 860 truly knocks me out.
The delay also prevents me from being sure what my import tax is before I would have ordered a second one.
It is why I waited to order the second one. I figured it comes on Mon or Tues I know my tax bill and if it was  de minimus pacing like 30 bucks I order the second one this weds.

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 MΞTAWIN  THE FIRST WEB3 CASINO   
.
.. PLAY NOW ..
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