Bitmain Introduces the S17+ and T17+

[Biffa]

Should be interesting to see the prices, I suspect they will be $3K plus if not more for the S17+, T17+ is about the same speed as a S17E but slightly less efficiency so maybe closer to $2.1 - 2.2?

S17+ is close to same efficiency as the S17Pro 50/53/56

T17+ is between S17E and T17e in terms of efficiency

It'll all come down to price, but I think this is the start of a major ramp up in difficulty and a direct attack on their competitors to wipe them off the board

[EDIT]
Updated with prices:

S17+ $2833

T17+ $1802

[1714169820]

1714169820

[1714169820]

1714169820

[philipma1957]

Yeah the s9s will now fall off. Being replaced with serious gear.

It is funny but this gear 73th at 40 watts a th is a bad fit for my 30amp circuits .

I prefer s17 53 or s17 53 pro.

I can run two of them and pull about 4600 watts on a 30 amp circuit.

If I run the s17 + it will pull about 2920 watts which is not a good use of a 30 amp circuit.

I suppose I could use a hp Pdu make it run 1 s9 and 1 s17+ that would be about 4300 maybe 4400 watts a circuit.

[wndsnb]

Seriously ... How many more S17 variations can they come up with? Just trying to milk every last cent out of those 7nm chips I guess. So this is basically a 73th s17 Pro with no low power mode, so should be priced somewhere between a pro and non-pro per th.

I'll wait 3 more weeks for the S17e+ pro... lol.

[philipma1957]

Seriously ... How many more S17 variations can they come up with? Just trying to milk every last cent out of those 7nm chips I guess. So this is basically a 73th s17 Pro with no low power mode, so should be priced somewhere between a pro and non-pro per th.

I'll wait 3 more weeks for the S17e+ pro... lol.

  It is more industrial and less home friendly.

Also pulling say 3000 watts it would be better on a 20 amp 220 volt circuit vs a 30 amp 220 volt circuit. Most likely I will not be getting it.
I will focus on s17 and s17 pro as the 2225 to 2300 watt draw they do is more attractive to me.

[wndsnb]

These would drop right in at farms that were running old S9s at close to 1500W each.

[philipma1957]

I know some farms have lots of 20amp breakers with a dual 20amp socket. They are a straight drop in power wise.   So pull 28th add 73 th in about two minutes. Also drop one Ethernet cable.

With bitmain dropping so much gear so quickly I now have a clear path to grow the gear.

I buy 1 or 2 s17's a month using paypal to pay for them.
By the ½ ing we will be all s17 gear.  Over 3ph in gear.

[Jamesrunner]

I wonder if they will be listed super high, then do the "actual" sale price and whatever difference in price to the real price, then refund you on your bitmain account like they've done before.

[PopoJeff]

Seems with Bitmain, I cannot place an order for an item..... without a newer, better version being released before the one I ordered even ships

[AlecMe]

wait, 3kw (on two cables) cannot run on a 30amp breaker if another miner is plugged in on the same breaker(ie. a t17e which draws almost as much)? the circuit is 220v; also, i smell s19's for the halving 

[PopoJeff]

wait, 3kw (on two cables) cannot run on a 30amp breaker if another miner is plugged in on the same breaker(ie. a t17e which draws almost as much)? the circuit is 220v; also, i smell s19's for the halving 

Sure they can.  A 3000 watt units is 12.5A on a 240v circuit.  Two units pulling 25A on a 30A circuit, run with 10ga wire will be just fine.  24A on 10ga wire is recommended, but if its a short wiring run, say under 25', there should be no problems.

[philipma1957]

Borderline at best  more then likely you will trip your circuit breakers over and over.  running 2 units pulling 6000 watts on a 30 amp circuit is possible but not a good idea.

6000/7200 = 5/6 = 83.333%    which is over code.  This assumes an exact 240 volt output   many of us run from 217 to 227 as the norm.

I have 3 spots with 220/240

One does  217 to 227  this would never work  with 2 units on 1 30 amp circuit.

one does  234 - 237  I would bet against this one not tripping gear out.

one does  237 - 243  this could work.

I have pushed all 3 locations

the 217 to 227  prefers 4800 watts or less on a 30 amp circuit.

the  234-237    can do 5100 watts no issues

the 237-243 can approach 5800 watts in the winter.

there is no way would I try 2 s17+  on 1  30 amp circuit.

I would do 2 s17+ and 1 s9  =  2950 + 1350 = 4300 watts which is no worries

now most of my gear is in clifton which runs in the 217 to 227 volt zone
So I do not try  to get to 5000watts on any circuit.

We also have an issue that low volts occurs  say 190 volts  every 10-14 days for about 10 minutes  we think it is a power station issue  so pushing circuits is simply not justified for us.

If you have a very steady 240 volts in a very cool space maybe you can do 2 of these units and pull about 5840 watts on a 30 amp circuit.  I am sure people will try it and some may do okay.

[mikeywith]

Seems with Bitmain, I cannot place an order for an item..... without a newer, better version being released before the one I ordered even ships

Bitmain does a perfect "Carrot and stick"

[PopoJeff]

So, lets get crazy and say two units will run 6000w.
And your "iffy" voltage gets down to 220v

That'll make your two units draw about 27A. Maybe 27.5A

Breaker isnt tripping til 30A. But its close.
Your power would have to drop to 200v to trip your breaker.

10ga wire is rated for 30A, but the 80% rule (24A) is recommended. But, thats put in place due to longer runs.

You'd probably be just fine if your circuit run was short.

But to be safe, 40A breaker with 8ga wire would be recommended for two of these units. But 30A, 10ga can be done if you know what you're doing electrically.

[MoparMiningLLC]

I would like to see them produce smaller units - with half the hash and half the power consumption of these current new ones - this would be much easier to incorporate into my mining space. and its much less of a loss should a unit go down.

instead of 73 TH/s with 40 j/th - why not a 35 TH/s with 40 j/th  - just cut these damn things in half.

[philipma1957]

They want to move to industrial clients. No more complex then this.

The best units for efficiency are all pulling lots of power.
They are all 220 volts.

S17 50th pro is the lowest power about 2050 watts at middle speed.

S17+ 73 th is high power 2920 watts

M20s. 68 th is 3350 watts

So high power industrial gear is what they push.

[AlecMe]

Another reason why I still like Bitmain is the two power cables (splitting the W's and allowing me to use them, still).

I hope Bitmain will still keep this feature.

Also, I will measure my circuits today to be sure where I stand

[HagssFIN]

Another reason why I still like Bitmain is the two power cables (splitting the W's and allowing me to use them, still).

I hope Bitmain will still keep this feature.

Also, I will measure my circuits today to be sure where I stand

How have they done that design?

Is there a risk for phase-to-phase short circuit if you put your power cords into two different circuits which are on different phases ?

This was something I was worried about when I heard about that design.

And I also worry about how well will the protection work in a fault situation with a two circuit setup. Even if those two circuits would be on same phase.

[Thetaj]

It is more industrial and less home friendly.

Also pulling say 3000 watts it would be better on a 20 amp 220 volt circuit vs a 30 amp 220 volt circuit. Most likely I will not be getting it.
I will focus on s17 and s17 pro as the 2225 to 2300 watt draw they do is more attractive to me.

Funny, I have the same problem, I run a 32amp circuit but I pull max 4000W per circuit. with all the new machines running 3000-3300W I'm pretty much in a dilemma. If they made a machine with 2000W with the same efficiency, I'd be happy to put 2 on a circuit and call it a day.

[AlecMe]

How have they done that design?

Is there a risk for phase-to-phase short circuit if you put your power cords into two different circuits which are on different phases ?

This was something I was worried about when I heard about that design.

And I also worry about how well will the protection work in a fault situation with a two circuit setup. Even if those two circuits would be on same phase.

I am presuming they are using one cable to power 1.5 board? With the other one covering the other half. The tricky part would be making sure the fans run, so probably a fail-safe power from both cables 'just in case' with the normal cut off if the temperature reaches X degrees.

You can power-up two boards with from 2 PSU (found this guy who did it https://youtu.be/Af76eBsH35A?t=480/ )

Not sure about the half a board powered by one cable and the other one by another, unless one cable does 2 boards and the other cable the other board and the 4 fans and PSU fans   would love to know more though.

Found this about them https://www.antminerdistribution.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/S17-S17-Pro-T17-Server-Manual.pdf but nothing about the power cables (or at least I did not see).

[MoparMiningLLC]

They want to move to industrial clients. No more complex then this...

I get that totally but still, if they keep climbing, a lot of us will have to redo or at least reconsider our electrical wiring and such. I run 30 amp circuits on 220v so I should be ok for a while but at the rate they are climbing, those soon will not be sufficient.

[philipma1957]

But  the funny thing is  the s17 pro 53th is still better then the s17+ 73th
So the purpose of bgger and more power does not really help much

other then a huge farm  since :

1000 s17 pros do 53 x 1000 = 53ph and use 2000 power cords with 1000 eth cables.

800 s17+  do 73 x 800 =       58.4ph and use 1600 power cords with 800 eth cables.

So  there is some savings in cables maybe some in shelf space  if you run a 2.3 mega watt farm.

[MoparMiningLLC]

exactly why I would rather see them cut these things in half - I love the efficiency, I just do not like seeing so much hash in one unit would rather have 2 that equal 70 then one that equals 70

[NotFuzzyWarm]

exactly why I would rather see them cut these things in half - I love the efficiency, I just do not like seeing so much hash in one unit would rather have 2 that equal 70 then one that equals 70

Ditto.
For me (running 460-480TH) the risk is what happens when a 73TH miner goes down hard: That would be waaay too high of a percentage of my hash rate offline for at a minimum of a few weeks. Unless you are running a farm with 10's-100's of PH losing that much from a single miner failure is unacceptable.

[philipma1957]

If we ever do all upgrades in Clifton NJ we could do 350kwatts maybe 400.

At the moment we have 160kwatts  available and have around 110 in use maybe 115 K-watts

So if we add 40-50 kwatts to be maxed which is on schedule to happen. I don’t want any s17+

I ordered a s17 53th ..........  it. pulls 2300 watts
I ordered 2 t17e 106th they will pull 6000 watts
I purchased a1041 37th ....... it pulls 2500 watts

That is 10800 watts of the 40-50 we have idle.

I will be buying the s17 53th or the s17 pro 50th. Once I get the a1041 and the s17

We may want 10-20 s17 and zero s17+

[favebook]

I would do 1 s17+ and 1 s9  =  2950 + 1350 = 4300 watts which is no worries

I think you meant 1(bolded) instead of 2 in this calculation. Just a friendly edit

I am presuming they are using one cable to power 1.5 board? With the other one covering the other half. The tricky part would be making sure the fans run, so probably a fail-safe power from both cables 'just in case' with the normal cut off if the temperature reaches X degrees.

You can power-up two boards with from 2 PSU (found this guy who did it https://youtu.be/Af76eBsH35A?t=480/ )

Not sure about the half a board powered by one cable and the other one by another, unless one cable does 2 boards and the other cable the other board and the 4 fans and PSU fans  would love to know more though.

Found this about them https://www.antminerdistribution.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/S17-S17-Pro-T17-Server-Manual.pdf but nothing about the power cables (or at least I did not see)

Actually, I think they integrated something similar to Nvidia's GPU's power delivery.
I noticed when powering my S17 Pro, whichever power port I plug in first, the controller and all fans turn on, but hashboards seem to wait for both ports(haven't really played with it much so I do not know if this works for extended amount of time, but I had to plug out and in a couple of times so that is what I noticed).
Therefore, I guess there is some sort of chip which tells the miner that one port is plugged and it just turns on controller and fans and as soon as second port is plugged as well, it turns on the hashboards and miner.

[MoparMiningLLC]

all my circuits have switches - I am not brave enough to power up the miners with only one cord and then plug in a second cord - seem like a chance to screw up the miner - kind of like powering up an s9 with only one hashboard powered and then plugging in the others after you turn it on.

[AlecMe]

Makes sense to have protection on the double cord powering the equipment.


Also, did some math and based on the previous prices and I would expect the following prices range for the S17+ and T17+:

Based on J/TH:

s17+   3285   W      45 j/th
73 th/s   low                 average              high   
                   $2,250.00        $2,700.00              $3,150.00   

t17+   3520   W      55 j/th
64 th/s   Low                 average              high   
                   $2,090.00         $2,365.00              $2,915.00   


Based on $/TH

s17+         
73 th/s   low                  average             high
                   $2,832.17          $3,212.00             $3,650.00


t17+         
64 th/s   Low                  average              high
                   $1,472.00          $1,664.00              $1,920.00


Waiting 'eagerly' for tomorrow  .

Edit: checked my V and sitting very nice between 235 - 242, with and 80% load should be ok to place 3k on one 32A breaker I think. Will have to read some more on the thickness of cables and see what I have

[NotFuzzyWarm]

Makes sense to have protection on the double cord powering the equipment.

Has anybody had a chance to look inside the PSU to see how BM is powering them?
They damn well better actually have 2x PSU's in the 1 case as just doubling the power inlets/cords to feed a single supply violates regional electrical codes everywhere on the planet.

That said, running multiple PSU's with 1 per-hash board or some other grouping would make sense as it gives the ability to have the PSU voltage be better optimized per-board.

[wndsnb]

S17+ at $2833, $38.80/th. T17+ at $1802, $28.16/th.

That's lower than I expected based on prices of the S17 and S17 pro. S17+ is listed as "Pre-Order" with the promise of giving credit if Bitmain decides the value of the miner dropped before shipment.

The Dec. "Pre-Order" batches of the S17 53th are no longer on the website, but they were priced at $2107, or $39.75/th. So at this moment, it looks like people that ordered the S17s for Dec. delivery probably have some credit coming to them if BTC price stays in this range.

S17+ 40 w/th
S17 45 w/th
T17+ 50 w/th

That would suggest the current "Actual Transaction Price" for the S17 per th would be halfway between the S17+ and T17+ at $33.48/th, or $1774.44.

[Hockeybum]

I am running 3-phase 60 amp 208v circuits in an industrial building and these will still pose a problem for me.  My 60 amp circuits can only power 17.3 kW to stay below the 80% NEC safety margin and I can only put 5 of these per circuit, which really means 3 per circuit since it has to be balanced.  So I will probably run 3 S17+ and 3 S17 per circuit to balance it and stay below the 17.3 kW max.

[wndsnb]

I am running 3-phase 60 amp 208v circuits in an industrial building and these will still pose a problem for me.  My 60 amp circuits can only power 17.3 kW to stay below the 80% NEC safety margin and I can only put 5 of these per circuit, which really means 3 per circuit since it has to be balanced.  So I will probably run 3 S17+ and 3 S17 per circuit to balance it and stay below the 17.3 kW max.

Running these at 208V might be borderline. They haven't given a range for the + models yet but assuming they are the same as other S17s it will be 200 - 240. Only a 5% dip in your 208V and you'll be below 200V.

Also would be getting dangerously close to the limit of the C13 power connectors.

Anyone have S17s running on 208V without issues?

[philipma1957]

I have issues we are 208 3 phase.  But it tends to read 217 to 227.

Every once in a while we drop to 187-190 this drops out a lot of the gear.

Most comes back but we often have 2 or 3 units down due to this issue.

I finally found a good regulator it does 20 amps so even when I drop to 187

20 x 187 = 3740 watts

these regulators
have kept my s17 running
Have kept my t17 running
Have kept my Innosilicon t3 t40 running.

But it don’t want to have 50 of them. I have five at the moment.

[AlecMe]

Based on the current BTC price and difficulty got this put together for current Bitmain Gear for sale with maximum delivery date presented as the first day of minig:

https://imgur.com/kDPVi26

It presumes a date for ROI which includes, where applicable, the additional days after the Halving included in the chart.

Other matters calculated:
Start to mine date based on the delivery date advertised by Bitmain.
The first column of ROI date does not include the extra days required after the halving.
For after fees BTC outcome per day the TH/Day I've used is my BTC.com pool stats payments.

Current BTC price used: $8330

Other things that each individual have to consider and/or add to the chart:
Transport fees
Customs
Electricity Cost
Difficulty Increase
Delivery delays (ie. Stock issues, Customs holdups, acts of God, etc)
Halving Considered but no speculation on Price after.

[philipma1957]

So drop in

4 cent power cost and where do the numbers go 2kwatts = 48 kwatt a day  say 50 x 4 cents = 2.00
6 cent power cost and where do the number  go    "                  ""           "   "    50 x 6 cents = 3.00

most of the units are more then 2kwatts or more then 50 kwatts a day.

[AlecMe]

ROI date @4cents                    ROI date @6cents
Sunday, 14 March 2021             s17+      Tuesday, 6 July 2021
Sunday, 1 November 2020             t17+      Thursday, 11 March 2021
Saturday, 7 November 2020      t17      Saturday, 1 May 2021
Tuesday, 6 October 2020             t17      Thursday, 4 February 2021
Friday, 16 October 2020              t17e      Monday, 1 March 2021
Wednesday, 20 October 2021      s17pro   Sunday, 13 March 2022
Thursday, 20 May 2021             s17e      Sunday, 10 October 2021
Saturday, 10 April 2021              s17e      Sunday, 22 August 2021
Sunday, 20 June 2021             s17 pro   Thursday, 11 November 2021
Monday, 12 April 2021              s17      Monday, 20 September 2021
Tuesday, 1 December 2020              s9 se      Thursday, 14 April 2022
Wednesday, 24 June 2020              s9k      Sunday, 3 October 2021

Based on the delivery dates presented earlier, with no delays, no customs, no delivery charges, no difficulty increase but also with no BTC variation.

Uploaded a photo of it here: https://imgur.com/DSADsxM


Can anyone confirm how many power cables will the T17e have?

i can't seem to find it on the description page: 4. Please kindly note that power supply is a part of T17+.

[philipma1957]

Can anyone confirm how many power cables will the T17e have?

i can't seem to find it on the description page: 4. Please kindly note that power supply is a part of T17+. ....

The photo shows 2 plugs 🔌 gear pulls 3200 watts

[AlecMe]

Was worried not to be hit by a surprise 1 cable only due to this: '11. The pictures shown are for reference only, the final shipment version shall prevail.'.

Ordering one for December, fingers crossed for 2 plugs  

[fccs]

Can anyone confirm how many power cables will the T17e have?

i can't seem to find it on the description page: 4. Please kindly note that power supply is a part of T17+. ....

It is no different than the s17 or t17 currently, they all have 2 plugs.  (It's a basic fuck you to whatsminer from bitmain by doing this lol).

[philipma1957]

As much as I don’t like bitmain I do like the two plug design.

[PopoJeff]

Agreed, two plugs splitting the load is a great idea. And even though they're pricey units.... has anyone else achieved the efficiency rating they have?

In my situation, I did not consider ROI because I used stock trading gains to buy the gear for the most part. My goal is accumulate as much as I can, at the lowest power cost possible. Until i sell everything in 2027.

[AlecMe]

S17+ and T17+ are no longer on the Bitmain website.

I wonder how many did they sell

[philipma1957]

Sold out impressive.

here is what is left

s17 pro 50 th ships oct 21 - 31
https://shop.bitmain.com/product/detail?pid=00020191008110913733iekduN1t06F6

s17e 64 th ships Jan 2020
https://shop.bitmain.com/product/detail?pid=00020191008105417480q70aWvKk06AF

t17e 53th ships dec 21-31  $1260
https://shop.bitmain.com/product/detail?pid=000201910081000259015F3kk26c0636

t17 40th ships dec 21-31 $951
https://shop.bitmain.com/product/detail?pid=00020191008104128319kUiA6JBC0661

and s9 se along with s9k

so other sold out gear the s17 53th shipping oct 21-31 for 2330.

[AlecMe]

getting one more 't17e 53th ships dec 21-31  $1260' now. fingers crossed, might ROI(*) before the halving

[MoparMiningLLC]

I ordered a T17 40 TH then realized I should have gotten the T17e --- they sent a coupon for ordering the T17 so maybe I will still order a T17e hmmm

would be an easier decision if someone would buy my T15 and S11 lol

[AlecMe]

I ordered a T17 40 TH then realized I should have gotten the T17e --- they sent a coupon for ordering the T17 so maybe I will still order a T17e hmmm

would be an easier decision if someone would buy my T15 and S11 lol

Bitmain maid it easier: no T17e (53th) left as well

Should have bought your coupon, if only I knew you had one .

[MoparMiningLLC]

sorry - I just got it today - its for $150.

[philipma1957]

So I buy a t17  and I want my $150 coupon

@ stryfe how long before you got yours?

I paid in full and don't see a coupon.

[mgoz]

I bought a T17 4 weeks ago and no coupon yet. Was a 38TH/s version too so I guess I got suckered into using a $350 coupon. I'm assuming they will provide coupons based on price when they ship.

[philipma1957]

I have no $150  coupon I have paid for the unit in full:
Below is a quote from this link

1. Click here for Specifications and other information of Antminer T17.
2. Those who have purchased and fully paid the payment on our official website will receive one unit 150 USD coupon for each T17 miner(this batch) purchased.

Please note that,
① The coupon will expire when the BTC price exceeds 10,000 USD.
② The coupon can be used for deducting maximum 30% of the order total amount (shipping fee not included).
③ The coupon shall not be used for further purchase of this batch Antminer T17.
3. For USD wire, please do upload the bank proof of transfer within 48 hours. If no proof of transfer is loaded within this time period, the order will expire.
4. The shipment of this batch will start on a first-paid-first-ship basis for orders which Bitmain has received full payment. We recommend you to be aware of
your local customs clearance policies and prepare ahead of time for it to avoid any customs clearance delay or unexpected costs.
5. Please kindly note that power supply is a part of T17.
6. Please kindly note that the required input voltage for T17 is 220V.
7. Please select correct address for shipping before you submit your order. For this batch, shipping address cannot be changed once the order is submitted.
8. For the shipments to US, according to the NY ruling N297495, mining machine is classified under 8543.70.9960 which contains a 2.6% tax and an additional
25% import duty in accordance with the relevant Sino-US terms and conditions.
9. For German shipments, please be aware that we have numerous German customers met customs clearance problems when shipments arranged via DHL. You
may wish to consider this information before shipping carrier is determined. In case of any customs delay or shipment return due to DHL shipping, Bitmain will
not be held liable.
10. Please click here to refer to the all certificates of the products.Please research on your local custom requirements before purchasing from Bitmain. In the
case of any custom delay or shipment return due to the lack of certification, Bitmain will not be held liable.
11. To ensure the authenticity, high quality and full warranty coverage of products you purchase from us, We strongly suggest that u should purchase from our
official website (www.bitmain.com) and we shall be solely responsible for products purchased from our official website. Please acknowledge that we do not
have any authorized third party distributor and reseller in any region or country. We will not allow our products to be sold by individuals via phone call, email or
any other methods. It could be a scam if you place the order with someone claiming to be an official Bitmain sales representative/distributor via email or Skype
or on any other websites other than our official website (www.bitmain.com). In no event will we be liable for any loss or damage caused by scams from third
parties. The terms and conditions of our sales products on the official website are the only binding version and we will not in any event match any preferential
terms offered by any other unauthorized third party distributor and reseller.
12. The pictures shown are for reference only, the final shipment version shall prevail.
13. Please take note that origin of the mining machine on the label will be updated due to factory adjustment.
14. Only coupons value with 358USD and below may be used for this batch.

What is even more stupid Is I paid with paypal  and now have certain proof they did not send a coupon.
They are asking for issues doing business this way.

[MoparMiningLLC]

So I buy a t17  and I want my $150 coupon

@ stryfe how long before you got yours?

I paid in full and don't see a coupon.

did you do the purchase thru the "future order" process? Those sales are the ones that got coupons issued. and it took me about 48 hours after payment to get the coupon

[Philipma1957cellphone]

okay will keep looking for them.

[AlecMe]

Just saw I should be getting a coupon as well, thank you. According to:

3. Those who have purchased and fully paid the down payment on our official website will receive one unit 200 USD coupon for each T17e miner(this batch) purchased.

I have dropped them an email and will update accordingly upon their reply on ETA for the coupon.


EDIT:

This is the response:

"Hello ******,

Thanks for your consultation!

The coupon will be issued within 3 days after your orders are submitted and paid, thanks.

Please let us know if you have additional questions or concerns.

Best regards,
Carol
​"

If that time has passed, please be sure to email them for clarifications as mistakes can happen and you may be owed​ 

[philipma1957]

I got a coupon this morning. I purchased a s17 pro 50 due to ship on oct 21-31 I used paypal with six months to pay.

I now have

2x t17e      due to ship nov 1 -10  106th
1x s17       due to ship  oct 21-31    53th
1x s17 pro due to ship  oct 21-31     50th
1 x t17      due to ship  dec 21-31      40th


total of     249th by Dec 31st

[Philipma1957cellphone]

I got two shipping notices. My s17 pro my s17. They both shipped well within the promised oct 21 to oct 31 time.

[mgoz]

Did your $150 coupons expire when BTC price exceeded $10k over the weekend? I still haven't received a coupon but it didn't have the $10k expiration either.

[MoparMiningLLC]

Did your $150 coupons expire when BTC price exceeded $10k over the weekend? I still haven't received a coupon but it didn't have the $10k expiration either.

my coupon for $150 is still available to be used - hoping to use it in another week and buy another T17

[philipma1957]

I generated 2 coupons  one for 150 and 1 for 375

I spent the 150 buying the s17 pro 50 it is mining as I type

I spent the 375 on a dec order for the t17+ it is due to ship so I got 150 +375

I expected the 150 and a pair of 57 dollar coupons  so I can not complain.

[MoparMiningLLC]

nice. My T15 is sold on eBay - just gotta see if they actually pay - the auction is up to 900, it may still go higher or it may end there. Either way, with that $ and with the coupon I will order another T17 - auction ends in a week, so I hope T17's are still available then.

[philipma1957]

I have a lot on order.

2x t17e         106
1x t17             40
1x t17+           64

2x a1066        106

316th

[MoparMiningLLC]

I wish I had the space to run that much. I cant even get my permits approved. I own the land but cant get the power approved - without that, the bank wont give me financing to start building and I dont have the cash to do it outright. So, here is hoping BTC reaches 50k lol.

[Philipma1957cellphone]

we are at 1.12 ph of.course we have. 50 th offline which is common for us to have 3-7% go offline. We have 300 th coming online from now to Jan 1. So 1.4ph by years end.  Of course we also have 11gh for l3+ which is about  .35 Ltc a day.

[MoparMiningLLC]

I have a real bone to pick with Bitmain - they are making me  "overpay" for my miner. Their "price" of BTC is considerably less than my "price"

It was supposed to be half up front and half by November 30th. I paid .07 initially to secure the order ( what was in my online wallet at the moment ) while waiting for the transfer from my hardware wallet.

A few days later when I was not busy I logged in to see that while my wallet says I sent .07 BTC valued at that time as 582.12 USD, that Bitmain said I gave them .07 BTC but valued it at 579.73 - apparently the btc value dropped from when I submitted to when they received. As it was only 3 dollars and change I decided to go ahead and just pay it, especially as BTC had risen to over 10k at that time - so I sent what they said I owed, 496.17. Little did I know they go by the value of BTC at the time of the order (which was 8281.86) - so they said I still owe 71.82 even though the BTC I sent on the second payment was when BTC was over 10k. So now, I will have to send another payment or basically they will cancel the order and will not issue a refund.

In total - based on BTC value at the time I made the payments, I will have paid 582.12 for first payment, 493.17 for second payment and 79.46 for the 3rd payment - totaling 1154.75 for an order that was 1075.29 - an over payment of 79.46

If they are going to offer segmented payments, they should allow for payments to be made at the BTC value AT the time of payment not what it was at another point in time.


I will never do another order with segmented payments. I am sure that if the initial payment was when BTC was 10k and BTC dropped down to 3k that they would not let me pay as if it was still at 10k....

anyways, lesson learned.

edit.... apparently BTC value must have dropped again. They are now stating I owe .00050113 more now....

[philipma1957]

Look pay them  0.0006 and from now on pay them with paypal like I do.

I will not buy from anyone except avalon without using paypal.

Yeah I am that disgusted with sellers. Other then avalon.

I did get my hoster in Clifton a good deal on the s17 pro 50

2 for 4300 paypal  six months to pay shipped from Malaysia
and
2 for his son same deal different account.

he got a better deal then I did.

4 for 8600  no trump tax  six months to pay.  200th at 43 a th

I paid for 103 + 106 + 104 =    313 th  all paypal six months 13500 or 43 a th  but I got  mixed gear

s17
s17 pro
t17
t17e
t17+     so while we paid  the same per th

his is more efficient and will arrive faster.   but all this gear  500th or so is on paypal six months to pay.

[MoparMiningLLC]

yea I saw the new PayPal option. That would require me to convert my btc to USD and wait for the bank to process a transfer to PayPal - a delay I wouldn't like to deal with. at least not right now. As I do not have PayPal Credit nor do I want to open another LOC under my company name at this time.

[Freemine-001010]

I have a lot on order...

where did you order the t17+ from ,

i have an partner who wants to buy 10 of them

[Jamesrunner]

You guys see the 25% tariff warnings? I've bought before but this is the first time I'm seeing them

[MoparMiningLLC]

You guys see the 25% tariff warnings? I've bought before but this is the first time I'm seeing them

yes, the miners need to be under 800 if I recall to miss the tariff - I thought it was 1000 but someone told me 800

[Freemine-001010]

so the quote i got from alibaba

Model: T17+ 64T
Quantity: 10 units
Delivery: end December
price: $1849/Unit
shipping cost to USA ：$710
total : $19200

i need to add 25%   or about 5,000???

if i buy from Sesterce Mining

do the tariffs apply as its in France ?

[NotFuzzyWarm]

@ freemine,
Please read the Deminimus thread here....
In short, regarding the Trump Tariff, what matters when importing gear into the USA is where equipment is built (made in China) - not where it is sold or shipped from.

[philipma1957]

where did you order the t17+ from ,

i have an partner who wants to buy 10 of them

I ordered direct from bitmain.

As for trump tax I am USA based I paid 27.6% on my last 2 orders

1 s17      53t
1 s17pro 50t



If you are shipping into the USA expect to pay 20 to 28% tax  depending on how it is valued.

I should pay an additional 1500 to 1600 trump tax on the

2x T17e   list was 1665  3330 for two so    that is        between   750 to 850 trump tax
1x T17+  list was  1628  I had a 375 coupon  so 1250      about  315 to 410 trump tax
1x t17     list was    975  It made a coupon but should be  about 240 to 260

I am looking at 1305 to 1520

I just paid 1250

I have paid more then  4000 trump tax this year add the 1300 more I will have paid over 5300 trump tax by years end.
1x T17

[Freemine-001010]

what do you think about ordering from alibaba ? never ordered there before

Phill , Thanks for all the info, that trump tax is a killer,  wish i could order each hash board for the t17+  separately to keep it under 800 ,
just have 50+ orders lol

[philipma1957]

they have protection also some sellers will take paypal.

back when gpu mining was hot i ordered from two sellers they were okay.

if you can find a good alibaba seller it is possible it may be better then direct from bitmain.

[Freemine-001010]

yea the limit 2 per order is not great,

[Huxley23]

You all complaining about the trump tax, while us, still paying 20% on almost all equipment that is shipped to the EU.

[philipma1957]

you guys get free medical correct?  we get nothing

[Huxley23]

Free medical isnt technically free since we still end up paying for it from our taxes.

[MoparMiningLLC]

only those that work pay for it. We have a huge population that live off of welfare here that do not work even though nothing is wrong with them. Many prefer not to work at all. They can make a living off welfare - better than if they worked for some of them.

[philipma1957]

Well it is all off topic.  But I pay and pay and pay and pay and pay for medical.

If I said I spent 20,000 out of pocket not counting my insurance policy fees I would be too low.

If I add in the insurance policy fees for my wife and I.

I am  well over 85,000

If I add in my wife's bills I am over 110,000.

This would be from 1985 to 2019

If I add in what the policy's paid out I am well over 210,000.

Not counting  anything but medical.

As for taxes  my wife and I must have paid 1,000,000 in tax on about 2,500,000 in income same time period.

So yeah  the extra  4-5k for the trump tax does not sit well with me.

[MoparMiningLLC]

I hear ya - my insurance costs me just shy of 5k per year (if i dont use it) then I have a 10k deductible - so I have to spend 15k each year before my insurance even pays a penny.

[falconlogs]

Hello Guys,

Are there distinctive specs or features that would differentiate Antminer's S series ( S9j, S11, S17... ) vs the T Series ( T17, .. )?

• Are there a distinctive difference in design?
• Are there a distinctive difference in perhaps "ASIC" models?
• Are there a distinctive difference in firmware / controller boards?

Ultimately which is better the T series? or the S Series?
And why?

[Philipma1957cellphone]

Hard to define better.    But s17 vs t17  is about 2400 watts for either one. The s17 does 53th. The t17 does 40th.  So an extra 13th same power for them makes the s17 better.  Price 2100 s17.  Price 1200  t17  makes t17 better.   So 13th for same power use is about 2 dollars a day this means in 450 days at current diff price ratio the s17 surpasses the t17.        450 days is forever in cryptomarket.   If price of coin sky rockets  that 13th will earn 4 or 6 or 8 in a day.  This means the s17 surpasses the t17 in 225 days to 111 days. I try to blend s17pro and t17 when i pruchase.

[Searing]

I don't suppose there is something that would help the 25% Tariff in the USA, like the T17 being shipped from Maylasia and the S17 being shipped from China?

I'm not getting any, but anything like that going on with various models that folks can tell? Sorry, just a thought?

later

Brad

[philipma1957]

Seems random.  But not sure.

7 units shipped since October 25

2 on October 25  1x s17 53t  1x s17pro 50t  came china to hong kong to usa 1200+ trump tax on 5000 order.  double burn as price dropped on these units.

1 on October 26 2x s17pro     came malaysia to hong kong to usa    67 trump tax and unit was    2200 for 1
2 on October 31 2x s17pro     came malaysia to hong kong to usa  137 trump tax and units were 4400 for 2
2 on October 31 2x s17pro     came malaysia to hong kong to usa 147 trump tax  and units were 4400 for 2

of those 7  guess which 2 were mine   the double burn order!  I ordered a few days earlier  paid more  5000 for 2 vs 4400 for 2 and full trump tax of 1230

about 3075 a unit.

my partners orders  had price drop and just 2.6% tax for about 2300 a unit.

Now if you order  today  will you get a china  departure or a malaysia departure?  I don't know.

But I have more gear shipping this week  these are in my name.

2 t17e's cost about 3350.
I may pay 100 or I may pay 900.

I will post back  on what they do.  My luck another double burn!

[wndsnb]

My S17 pros that arrived on Friday came from China, shipped to Canada.

Phil, were all those orders were placed through the website? I know they were offering the Malaysian units to larger customers, maybe some pulled orders when the price crashed so they started filling some online orders from the extra stock there.

But why would they not create a separate batch for units shipping from Malaysia? Seems crazy to just randomly start sending them out.

[philipma1957]

I have no idea why they sent 5 the cheap way  and 2 the expensive way.

Maybe  they figured out the best way to sell gear to the USA is assemble in Malaysia and ship from Malaysia for every USA order.

And maybe from now on all USA buyers get the gear shipped from Malaysia.

It is some what complicated as to Country of origin since chips are made in Taiwan. The chips are well over 60% of the unit's value.

So if chips are shipped from Taiwan to Malaysia you have the majority of the original parts not made in mainland China.

Yeah

I know Taiwan is considered to be China by China.
I know Hong Kong is consider to be China by China.

But in terms of trump tax it is a USA tax  so it only matters what  the USA considers Taiwan and Hong Kong to be.

If I was  bitmain I would sell every piece to the USA via:

Malaysia - Hong Kong - USA

I can say poor me I am out 1230  vs 147.

but my partners spent 350 vs 2500.

When I get the next order it is in my name.

I am hoping to see if it ships via Malaysia - Hong Kong - USA  and I pay 100 vs 900.

[MoparMiningLLC]

i am hoping my order comes that route too - less tax is better.

[PopoJeff]

I have 3 units on order, due to ship in the next 2 months.  No idea whats gonna happen with tariff.
But I have a friend in Canada I just thought of.  Maybe future orders i can have shipped to him in Canada to avoid tariffs, and then he can forward to me. 

[wndsnb]

I have 3 units on order, due to ship in the next 2 months.  No idea whats gonna happen with tariff.
But I have a friend in Canada I just thought of.  Maybe future orders i can have shipped to him in Canada to avoid tariffs, and then he can forward to me. 

Can't legally do that. Unless you falsify the shipping/import documents, they will charge you 27.6% since it was manufactured in China. Doesn't matter if it stops in Canada.

[PopoJeff]

Can't legally do that. Unless you falsify the shipping/import documents, they will charge you 27.6% since it was manufactured in China. Doesn't matter if it stops in Canada.

Thats what i was afraid of.

[Freemine-001010]

I have 3 units on order, due to ship in the next 2 months.  No idea whats gonna happen with tariff.
But I have a friend in Canada I just thought of.  Maybe future orders i can have shipped to him in Canada to avoid tariffs, and then he can forward to me. 

But mabe that friend in canada wants to drive over to your house and see you ,  then the shpping stops in canada ,
1/3 of the tax should cover gas and expenses     road trip ! 

[Searing]

Hmmm.....I wonder though if they allow buying drugs in Canada to the USA without issues if they would allow 'Computer Servers' purchased USED in Canada via your Automobile. I guess it comes down to if at the USA border they would believe your claim or not. Likely, you'd get away with 1-2 for 'personal use' but anything more, not so much. I give it a 50/50 shot. I'd assume they'd call someone and find out it was an ASIC miner and you'd likely get tag'd or have to go back to Canada with it.

The problem with ASIC equipment is it is just exotic enough that border agents have probably seen it and remember such. Just saying. So sure, give it a try, but have your buddy follow in his car if you don't want to pay the tariff and have it go back.

There also is a 15% vat in Canada (15% National I think it was and 10% province...something like that) so in reality you are talking 12.6% more anyway. For that difference, you could just as well host it in Canada. But then again, if not too much trouble might be worth the hassle if you live in Minnesota or some such.

Anyway, my view, not that it means spit. I am in Minnesota and I don't plan to do this at these ASIC prices anyway.

Brad

[prpz]

Can confirm on my last 3 orders, exactly 13% tax was paid for Ontario, Canada.

[Freemine-001010]

[...]

lol , just make sure you have some large static free bags (like for motherboards) take everything apart and put it in the bags,

call it testing equipment for solving math problems,

[AlecMe]

New stock available for end of December and January:

Antminer S17+ 73TH/s - https://shop.bitmain.com/product/detail?pid=000201911052347597371vby3TxC06C6

Hashrate: 73TH/s

Shipping date: 21-31, Dec. 2019

$2111.00 (a bit cheaper for January)


S17e available as well for $1735 for December - https://shop.bitmain.com/product/detail?pid=00020191105234453852spL85EO4065B

[Searing]

In the bleachers, watching the pro's play down on the field of action...eating popcorn...no way to play even at my little league level with the 25% Tariff in play and/or the USA electric at 9.5c to 10c kWh. Thus, have to get more popcorn...

I did the math on the above at my 'bad' rate of electric of 10c kWh and $9,350.00 USD Bitcoin Price. Using What To Mine site: https://whattomine.com/asic. I get $5.82 a day. At flat difficulty (impossible...but go with this) that is a $5.82 a day into $2,111.00 without shipping nor a USA 27.6% import fee and Tariff as such.

360.85 days ROI, again at a flat difficulty and current $9,350.00 USD price. Getting a bit better, but still way, way, too rich for my blood. Again, IMHO. So I sit here with 'splinters' in my ass on the bleachers watching the others on here, on the field, with the ASIC play by play....alas

later

Brad

[Freemine-001010]

do you really have to upload a passport picture ?

cant get the bit-main site to authenticate my account
 ??

the pitcure is just somting like 20x3 =?  putting in 60 and says can still shop through real name

is this standard ?

[MoparMiningLLC]

do you really have to upload a passport picture ?

cant get the bit-main site to authenticate my account
 ??

the pitcure is just somting like 20x3 =?  putting in 60 and says can still shop through real name

is this standard ?

I gave no passport - Hell, I haven't had one for 20 years - since it was revoked lol

[PopoJeff]

I've never had a passport. The military handled my foreign visits.

But I did upload a pic of my PA drivers license which was accepted as ID.

[Freemine-001010]

so about to buy 5 s17+ 74th model asic miner from bitmain,

first time purchase is there anything you guys reccomend , cupons.

how have you paid for the gear,

Thanks in advance

Freemine

[MoparMiningLLC]

so about to buy 5 s17+ 74th model asic miner from bitmain,

first time purchase is there anything you guys reccomend , cupons.

how have you paid for the gear,

Thanks in advance

Freemine

nice! wish I was making that big a purchase but I lack the reserves for that. after my initial purchase of quite a few miners, I can only do one or two at a time. I always recommend to use coupons if you can.  My first order I paid via bank wire --- I do not suggest that. The fees are retarded. Ever since then I paid in btc or bch. 

[AlecMe]

so about to buy 5 s17+ 74th model asic miner from bitmain,

first time purchase is there anything you guys reccomend , cupons.

how have you paid for the gear,

Thanks in advance

Freemine

Definitely use coupons, many are selling them cheaper than mine which can  be found here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5193536.msg52974848#msg52974848

The very first gear I bought with BTC (converted from cash, Coinbase was easier for me at the time and pretty straight forward) and ever since only bought gear with mined BTC. It appeared to me as reinvesting and increasing revenue generation (although with the difficulty increase, at times, I was just staying within the same generation bracket).

The passport/ID thing was standardised 1 year ago by Bitmain, part of the lovely control/knowing policy in China, I believe.

Be prepared for import taxes 

Also, glad to see another fellow miner joining the ranks.

Any questions, always feel free to ask, people here are very helpful.

Good luck on your new adventure

[Freemine-001010]

Thank you VERY MUCH !!!!  that gives me some much needed reassurance.

i saw the 25% pop up for taxes, ill try to do a review with stats and picts.


so coinbase puts a limit on how much btc you can buy ... so since its at 8800 ish i got 1k worth

hope  bitmain and coinbase approve my knc stuff so i  can cash in the other 12k
cant wait for these as ive been buying cheep s9s

[Biodom]

Hey, what is this IMPORTER number that bitmain asks if you choose FEDEX.
If it is Social security number, then no way I would provide that to a foreign site (that lost credentials before due to the hack).

[MoparMiningLLC]

not sure - I have never used fedex - I typically use UPS as it is cheaper but sometimes DHL shows as cheaper.

[Philipma1957cellphone]

that is your ssn unless you are a business with a business number.  Hint if your ssn is 106-12-3456. And you put 106-21-3457 it could cause an issue on a large order.

[MoparMiningLLC]

I am a business and have the EIN - essentially a TID or TIN which is a SSN for a company and I wouldnt put it either lol thats why I never use fedex.

[Biodom]

it's a typical bureaucratic crawl.
FEDEX only needs it for more than $2500 items, hence the actual form does not have an asterisk there, but Bitmain forces the issue for cheaper items.

BTW, is $800 de minimis counted for the whole order, including shipping or only for the actual miner?
Much obliged.

[philipma1957]

With DHL  it has been on the item price.

So 799 or less you are good.

Coupons don't help you out.

ie a t17 at 1082 using a 300 dollar coupon drops to 782  plus shipping.

but usa / dhl  will tend to charge  27.6% on 1082 = 298 and say 22 for processing or 320 on that unit even if one.

Some say  you can fight that I have yet to do that.

My next shipment is   2 x 1665= 3330  which bitmain now says is only worth   2530

I wonder how much I pay on this one.

[Freemine-001010]

yea how does that work when you pay for an order and then the price drops .

do you just pay for the order and then pay for the shipping/tax  ?

just waiting for my KYC account verification to finish, but i almost bought the s17+ from alibaba @2900, and now they are 2111.

[wndsnb]

yea how does that work when you pay for an order and then the price drops .

do you just pay for the order and then pay for the shipping/tax  ?

just waiting for my KYC account verification to finish, but i almost bought the s17+ from alibaba @2900, and now they are 2111.

You pay tax on whatever the invoice says. The shipper includes an invoice which is used to determine the value of the goods. For the pre-order batches, it seems that Bitmain is updating the invoices with the lower price so you would only pay the tariff on the lower price. If you do a "spot order" or "future order", the invoice will show the original amount you paid, and that will be used to determine what tariff amount you owe. It does not matter if units are selling for much less than you paid by the time it gets to customs clearance, it only matters what is on the invoice.

[favebook]

Has anyone with S17+ had problems with fans not ramping up? Mine are staying at 3k RMP range even when some chips hit 80c. While S17e is ramping up to 6k RMP even at 50c.

[bigassboy]

Has anyone with S17+ had problems with fans not ramping up? Mine are staying at 3k RMP range even when some chips hit 80c. While S17e is ramping up to 6k RMP even at 50c.

Yes, same here..My S17+ around 3.8k - 4K maybe due to the hotter weather here and the T17e always at 5880 - 6000rpm

[philipma1957]

Yeah but my 2x 17e are crazy on power draw over 3300 watts.
In terms of meeting power specs  they are the worst units I purchased in all of 2019.

So to me the idea that the fans run high is not surprising.
To be fair I don't have any s17+ units to compare to.

[favebook]

Yes, same here..My S17+ around 3.8k - 4K maybe due to the hotter weather here and the T17e always at 5880 - 6000rpm

Idk how you even got that high, mine are sitting at 2.8k RMP even after 2 days of work after reboot. While S17e ramps up in first 5 minutes.
I understand that sometimes quiet is important but still... 2.8k RMP instead of 6k RMP at best product available, that seems odd to me. I'll contact Bitmain to check what is going on.

Tho, I had mine with December's firmware and I saw that they had this in their logs:
"1. Optimize and tune PID control fan strategy." so I thought I'd update firmware since it was released at 2020-01-07, however, it is the same firmware as original on my unit, so that did not help...

Yeah but my 2x 17e are crazy on power draw over 3300 watts.
In terms of meeting power specs  they are the worst units I purchased in all of 2019.

So to me the idea that the fans run high is not surprising.
To be fair I don't have any s17+ units to compare to.

Yeah, but 100% fan speed on 50c on S17e (and I had one T17e which was very similar, as far as I remember, it ran at 100% but it hit 70c really fast anyway) while S17+ is doing 45% fan speed on 80c, that is not right...

[Searing]

Bitmain only has 2 models for sale out supposedly the first of march 2020. Either they have slowed down due to chinese new year or they are already in the works to their data halls on the 5nm stuff. Just saying.

here is the link...kinda sparse: https://shop.bitmain.com/

armchair quarterbacking here...I have no plans to get an ASIC miner of any flavor as long as USA 25% tariff is on, more to it than that, but that seems to be plenty to dissuade me.

[PopoJeff]

I noticed the same thing over the last several days.  Available units were drying up, and the S17+ started at 73TH , then they had one at 70th, and finally at 67th.   Thats the only thing available now.

My assumption is inventory reduction of the 7nm chips. Using slightly sub-par chips, that may have been set aside previously, to get them out of inventory before switching out to a 5nm product.

I still have a fair amount of credit holding at Bitmain, and another .1 btc set aside ready to spend for another miner, but seeing the available product diminish in quantity and quality, I suspect that there's something new on the horizon.

[philipma1957laptop]

maybe I am hoping to grab one more unit.

[favebook]

Has anyone with S17+ had problems with fans not ramping up? Mine are staying at 3k RMP range even when some chips hit 80c. While S17e is ramping up to 6k RMP even at 50c.

UPDATE:
Bitmain said that that is normal behavior. They, however, haven't commented on the reason behind it nor have they given me the temperature when should fans ramp up or if they even go above 3k RMP.

Thanks for your consultation!

the fan speed is normal above 500 we have doube checked with our technical department
Your fan speed is normal

[Biodom]

Bitmain sent email, saying that they are closed until Feb 10 (for now, I assume) and that shipments would be delayed.

[favebook]

Bitmain sent email, saying that they are closed until Feb 10 (for now, I assume) and that shipments would be delayed.

Additionally, they are sold out of S17+, T17+ and APW7's. Only thing still able to be ordered is S9k, S9SE and ANTBOX.

This might be coincidence but they sold out exactly at 00:00 GMT February 1st. New gear preorder incoming? 

[Philipma1957cellphone]

Relisted t17+
960 jumped to 975

Relisted the s17 +

1565 to 1615 iirc

[favebook]

Relisted t17+
960 jumped to 975

Relisted the s17 +

1565 to 1615 iirc

I do not understand that move but okay, maybe it is closer to shipping date than previous batch?

[philipma1957]

nope it is longer ship time.

[mikeywith]

Correct, but not just that, it is 20-30 days longer  .

Something is going on, I noticed that in the last couple days of the previous month, the demand for coupons increased in such a way I have never seen before, someone "probably a Chinese" was collecting every single coupon they could get their hands on, that was a very unusual move, because usually when the coupons are about to expire the demand becomes really low, this time things were the exact opposite.

Someone/Some people know something we all don't, and they were buying every coupon and miner they can would get, it's like they know bitmain is having a production slow-down or whatever.

The current market prices in China for the new 17 series as follows.

T17+ 58Th = 1300$
S17+ 70Th = 2000$
S17+ 73Th = 2150$
S17 pro 53th = 1800$

And those don't even ship now, shipping starts after the New Year so around mid-Feb.

it's one of those times when the resellers are controlling the market due to lack of supply from Bitmain, such situations usually last for a while but then end terribly bad for the resellers when/if bitmain drop prices and restock a huge amount of everything.

[philipma1957]

I may buy some used s9 units.

or stick with what I have for a while.

[favebook]

Demand for coupons spiked because there was like 80% of all coupons expiring at 31.01.2020. and I think they usually spike like that during a few days before expiry. However, this is the first time that there was so small amount of coupons, previous years, there was much more of supply than demand for coupons and that is why this spike was very noticeable.

[mikeywith]

and I think they usually spike like that during a few days before expiry.

This is not true, they don't. In fact, many times people gave them out for free, I myself gave a couple of hundreds of them away for free because nobody was buying them, I even had a dozen expired on me because nobody wanted them even for free.

What's even worse now is the 10% rule, those coupons had no rules and nobody wanted them, it doesn't end here, the options on Bitmian's English website were limited to S9e, S9k, T17+ and S17+, all to be delivered on March except the S9s.

I know the coupon game inside out, and I am telling you, this time was different, I don't know what happened, I just know that it was different and someone might know something we all don't. If the production keeps slowing down and delivery stays this far ( nearly two months) then we know that someone figured that much out before it happened, and pretty soon all those gears will hit the Chinese market to be sold for premium outside of bitmain's territory.

[favebook]

Well, the demand does not mean the price is realistic. I was personally searching for coupons 2 weeks prior to expiry all the way to last day since that is when they are cheapest.

Well, Corona is actually hitting China pretty hard, that might be one of the reasons that they are slowing down. I have friends as well as business partners in China which are all not working until 7th of February (or further, depending on notice from government).

[Biodom]

Well, the demand does not mean the price is realistic. I was personally searching for coupons 2 weeks prior to expiry all the way to last day since that is when they are cheapest...

That's funny because I was selling my coupons twice in that period and my posts stayed there for days.

[philipma1957]

I sold a few maybe four or five.

[MoparMiningLLC]

i still have 1 for 150 no percent limit, just that it needs to be over $500

[favebook]

That's funny because I was selling my coupons twice in that period and my posts stayed there for days.

Haven't seen it... Would've contacted you.

[Philipma1957cellphone]

i still have 1 for 150 no percent limit, just that it needs to be over $500

When does it expire?

[favebook]

Those that did not expire in January, are either no limit or when BTC hits $10k.

[Biffa]

My last coupon has no time limit, but expires if BTC hits $20K for 3 consecutive days.

I'm keeping it for a while

[MoparMiningLLC]

only if btc hits 10k so it says, though btc has hit 10k once already while I have had it and it is still there.

[Searing]

Surely you jest! But being Bitmain and evil and all I am unsure.

(Bitmain: Being Evil Is A Lifestyle, deal with it!) (tm: Bitmain)

[mikeywith]

only if btc hits 10k so it says, though btc has hit 10k once already while I have had it and it is still there.

if you or anyone else for that matter have coupons to sell, do let me know  .

anyway in regards to S17+, there is this topic "T17/S17 malfunction: cases, solutions, remedies, RMA history", for those who are interested in reviews/issues on the S17+, you can follow this:

Here is another case I would like to add, I bought 2 S17s+ 67th, brand new ordered from Bitmain, I am overseas at the moment so I had someone receive and install them, the first gear worked just fine, started hashing right away, but the second one did not turn on.

The PSU works just fine, PSU fans spin the way they are supposed to, however, no lights coming out of the control board, the miner's fan do not spin.

At first, we suspected a PSU-Control Board connection problem, so I asked him to check the wires and everything seems to be in place, he had to leave before he could troubleshoot any further, so probably tomorrow. What I suspect is the PSU, there is a tiny chance that the control board might be bad, but that is unlikely, how often do you hear someone complain about a control board compared to PSU?

Anyway, I will keep you guys updated, unfortunately I can't send the gear back to them, so whatever the problem may be, I have to fix it on my own, I will of course "bother" them every day with emails until I get tried or they compensate me (whichever comes first).

I will post updates as they come.

[AlecMe]

for the s17+ what size are the fans/ventilators on the psu? and cfm?

[philipma1957]

for the s17+ what size are the fans/ventilators on the psu? and cfm?

do you mean the little short ones in the psu itself?

they may be 40mm  they whale like 10000 rpm



the ones below do the hashboards

https://shop.bitmain.com/product/detail?pid=000201910151107519921qKMCqzJ06A8


BTW I ordered  a second t17+

I hope it is better then the first one.

[MoparMiningLLC]

I may just order one too - well two maybe but on separate orders - I am hoping that they dont include shipping in the calculation for the tariff...

Edit:

I ordered one T17+ and it is supposed to ship next week. lets see if I actually get it before halving and if they rape me with tariff - technically purchase is under 800 the damn shipping should not be counted but it isnt always the case and sometimes they charge for it. So I shall soon see.

[nullius]

Found via Artemis3’s excellent response:

I hope everyone who gives a darn about Bitcoin avoids doing business with Bitmain in the future. Bitmain has been a long standing bad actor in the cryptocurrency ecosystem. We shouldn't forget this just because they replaced their CEO.  As far as I know they have done nothing to undo the damage they've caused or otherwise make amends.  We can see by their continued open source license violations in their products that they haven't changed.

I will award merit to every post that makes a compelling statement against buying from bitmain.

Artemis3 said everything that I usually would have, plus more; and the discussion thus got me thinking about Bitmain.  What is their strategy, on a deeper level?

Well, let’s talk business.  Most people on this forum know me for being suicidally principled; but I do understand business, in a purely pragmatic sense.  And, “business is business.”  Mining is a for-profit activity; miners obviously don’t want to shoot themselves in the foot financially with poor business decisions based only on idealism.  Of course, one of Bitcoin’s finest qualities is how effectively it aligns self-interest incentives with the greater good of Bitcoin; and if Doing The Right Thing makes business sense, then you must be incredibly stupid to do otherwise.

My flash of insight here:  When you buy from Bitmain, you are funding a hostile competitor.  Not only as a miner, but as an investor in Bitcoin.  Moreover, you are incurring a dependency of your business on a hostile competitor.  All of this is sheer idiocy, from a perspective of “strictly business”.


I observe that Bitmain attacked Bitcoin’s uniqueness.  Anyone who has studied the nature of money should know how detrimental an attack on uniqueness is, without further explanation.  Moreover, Bitmain are not only willing, but overly eager to make ASIC miners for altcoins—even for altcoins that deliberately attempt ASIC-resistance.  I followed the Zcash backpedalling on their ASIC-resistance promise, and Monero’s repeated hardforking of their proof-of-work algorithm while they developed RandomX (and if there were one altcoin feature that I could steal for Bitcoin, it would be RandomX—yes, I know why that will probably never happen; don’t bother explaining).  Bitmain has invested serious resources on all fronts to make a giant, undifferentiated market of lots of coins, in which all coins are just coins mined by Bitmain.

Bitmain is not only an ASIC maker:  They are an ASIC-maker whose self-evident strategy is to proliferate the market for mining hardware in every way they can, no matter how that may damage the market in other ways.  They don’t want for any particular coin to be uniquely valuable:  They want a general market of cryptocurrencies where one is pretty much the same as another, and no matter which one you choose, you will buy a Bitmain miner for it.  Meanwhile, they themselves can mine them all, and dump them all—it’s all the same to them.

At this juncture, I recall a vintage Joel on Software strategy letter:

Smart companies try to commoditize their products’ complements.

My analysis:  Bitmain seeks to commoditize cryptocurrencies as such.  Note the plural.

For HODLers of any cryptocurrency, this is disastrous.  For miners of any cryptocurrency, this is even worse, insofar as you are paying for the privilege of having your worst strategic competitor actively attempt to undermine your whole market.

Miners who buy Bitmain are, of course, buying from their direct competitor in the mining business.  I have never understood why people do this.  You pay Bitmain top bits for fast hardware, and thus fund Bitmain and Bitmain-operated pools to compete against you in hashrate.  You even buy from a direct competitor who was most probably deploying covert ASICBOOST in secret back around early 2017; so you know that they will play dirty tricks to gain an unfair competitive advantage against you.  You also know, as Artemis3 pointed out, how generally hostile they are to their own “customers”, with their history of control-freakery over business-critical capital hardware that you thought you actually bought from them—even to the point that they have sometimes “sold” you miners that came with their ability to remote-brick “your” business (!).  And you keep paying them!?

All this is simple, tactical, obvious at the surface; how do people not realize it, other than total thoughtlessness?

Whereas my point here is much deeper, and accordingly even scarier.  If you HODL any coin—not only Bitcoin, but any coin—then Bitmain is working to undermine the long-term value of your investment on a strategic level.  And if you fork over your capital investment money to Bitmain for mining hardware, you are forking yourself over in the long term.

Think business-wise.  Think about how best to grow and protect your own wealth in the long term.  Be guided accordingly.


This is a specific, concrete instance of a general, abstract point that I have been urging for awhile now:

If you have any Bitcoin, whether you have 1000 BTC or only a few precious satoshis, then an attack on Bitcoin is an attack on your wallet.  You may or may not care about Bitcoin’s noble principles.  You will defend those principles, to defend the value of your money.

Part of the genius of Bitcoin is that it turns greed and selfishness toward the common good:  If you have Bitcoin, you want to protect your savings, so you must stand against people who try to devalue it.  Otherwise, you risk losing your savings.

Everybody who has Bitcoin, has an incentive to protect Bitcoin.  If you have Bitcoin, then you are making the world a better place when you defend the value of your own money.  You can’t avoid protecting Bitcoin, if you want to protect your own money.  And if you have Bitcoin, then an attack against Bitcoin is not only an attack against some idealistic theory:  It’s a financial attack on you, personally!  Of course, you should be angry about that.

As a Bitcoin idealist, I understand that many people couldn’t care less about Bitcoin principles.

As a HODLer who gets hit in the wallet by the destructive market effects of fork-attacks against Bitcoin, I do not understand why many other people don’t seem to care about the value of their own money.  Please.  Be more selfish.  It’s good for Bitcoin, and good for you.

Full disclosure:  I have a personally significant financial interest in Bitcoin.  I have skin in the game, and Bitmain’s strategy is thus adverse to me, me, me.  A considerable part of my enmity for Bitmain is driven by pure self-interest.  You see how that works?

[favebook]

-snip-

Quite a few words you got to say.

How about this...

You make me a better and more efficient miner and I'll buy from you instead of Bitmain.

Good idea?

[philipma1957]

[...]

I quoted for a reason.
In case it gets deleted I have a few copies in my pm's.
Love the argument but off topic I want to save it for reference.

Here goes counter point:

once ltc was invented btc lost it's unique status.

All pow coins are simply commodities to be traded like stocks.
All pos coins are figments of imagination actually worse then mined coins.

Only one coin attempts to be unique and resist asic mining xmr  and the problem is the algo can be used by other coins.

So after play and mining and really pushing crypto coins as a storage of wealth for years. I gave up as The game is done on many levels.

I mine and sell and convert to fiat.  Basically because of the argument you are giving. My piece of the pie will never affect the industry as I will never be at 1% of any big coin.  But I have enough gear and cheap enough power to make money at this.

I do Hold 1 coin doge I have more then 1 million of them.

I saw btc go from 6 to 20,000  a factor of 3333x. It is now at 7,200  it will never do 3333 x 7,200 = 23,997,600 usd

No crypto coin will do 3333x what it is now if it is pow via asic and clonal it is basically an alt.  So since I see no way to rescue pow coins and go back to the 'good' old days I have adapted.

I will use my low power and make a small certain profit that way.

Thats why I purchased the t17+ with a coupon since no one else will offer a price that good and get the gear to me in under 10 days.

Do I like it no I do not.  But last year when what's miner was selling the m10 at I good price i purchased them.

If they offer the m30s at a good price I would buy some they don't.

MY only edge is a good power price.  If I have to buy from bitmain I will, Since I don't see POW lasting more then 10 years I think the 2028 ½ ing will deal the industry a death blow. BTW so does bitmain which is why they have done exactly what you are complaining about.

If you figure a way to stop them let us know.

[nullius]

Found via Artemis3’s excellent response:

~

~

I quoted for a reason

In case it gets deleted I have a few copies in my pm's

Love the argument but off topic I want to save it for reference.

Thanks.  Though if answers to gmaxwell’s explicit request from the previous Bitmain thread get deleted, I think there will be bigger problems than my losing a post. :-)

P.S., if you like any of my Bitcoin advocacy arguments, please feel free to copy and share anywhere you want, with proper attribution of my authorship.  For the greater good of Bitcoin (which is in the self-interest of anyone who has skin in the game...).

-snip-

Quite a few words you got to say.

How about this...

You make me a better and more efficient miner and I'll buy from you instead of Bitmain.

Good idea?

Those quite-a-few-words explain reasons why that is a shortsighted, self-defeating business strategy.

Try reading.  Good idea?

Having said my piece, I will probably not make a habit of posting in Bitmain threads here.

[philipma1957]

you could post this all here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5144362.0

As it is a mining topic that involves every coin.
I realized that when the asic companies attacked gpu mining and every developer folded other then xmr that pow will die and hodl is fucked.
I go over hundreds of ideas to prove that wrong and I come up with the conclusion that asic resistance is a must and we need more then just xmr doing that.
I also realized that cloning a coin and algo sharing can't work long term.

So here we are

BTC
BSV
BCH sharing sha-256 and all of us know that anyone of them would eat the others alive if they could

So I gave up on hodl I make my fairly small mining profit and convert it to cash and gear more then coin.

gear 80%
coin 10%
cash 10%
debt  0%

my current holdings ratio

mostly gear which is as below

sha-256  70%
scrypt     10%
cpu xmr  10%
gpu         10%

[mikeywith]

[...]

I do agree to the majority if not all of it, however, what you seem to be missing is the fact that mining is treated as a "very short business valued in FIAT".

It is safe to assume that at least 95% of miners do it for profit and not for the love of bitcoin, the proof is, they shut their mining gears the minute they become unprofitable FIAT wise.

This alone should give you a good idea of why 95% of miners wouldn't listen to you in the first place. Now let me dig a little deeper into the "very short business valued in FIAT"

You see the thing with crypto mining, in general, is that the calculations are done very short term, in most cases, it's merely a period of 6 months on average, in other words, every mining purchase decision they make is valid for that short period of time, your theory is 100% valid if these businesses were to run over longer periods of years or decades, in that case, one would really feel that they are indirectly competing against themselves when buying from Bitmain.

These business "cycles" being too short due to the nature of mining gears' efficiency and the instability of BTC value in FIAT, the power bills are paid in FIAT and not in bitcoin, the "If I don't do it, someone else will" theory and the fact that most miners don't CARE about bitcoin price next year because all that matters is how fast they return their investment, all of these factors makes everything you just said pretty meaningless to them.

Even altcoin diversity is viewed as an advantage rather than the opposite, as far as FIAT profitability is concerned, the more alts the more profit, if for whatever reason Bitcoin fails they get to mine another coin.

So let's just assume 'hypothetically' the miners are greedy businessmen who want to make more $$ and don't give a damn about bitcoin, shouldn't you be blaming everyone else who doesn't mine bitcoin but owns it? in other words, shouldn't bitcoin hodlers be doing something about it rather than telling miners not to purchase bitmain gears?

A person X who pretends to love the technology, cares about its future and sees the wrongdoings of miners, they should at worst case scenario buy a non-bitmain gear and mine bitcoin even if they had to pay more for the power bill, so this phrase here

As a HODLer who gets hit in the wallet by the destructive market effects of fork-attacks against Bitcoin, I do not understand why many other people don’t seem to care about the value of their own money.  Please.  Be more selfish.  It’s good for Bitcoin, and good for you.

You are asking miners to sacrifice profit for the good of their and your bitcoin, in the long run, we know that sacrificing profit for bitcoin is equal to spending money on bitcoin, why don't you suggest that everyone who owns bitcoin should mine at a loss using a non-bitmain gear to protect the value of their money and thus protecting bitcoin?

if everybody who claims to care about bitcoin was to sacrifice a very little portion of the BTC ""which sitting in their wallets doing nothing" bought a small miner from a bitmain competitor, then bitmain gears wouldn't make up 10% of the total hash rate, but almost nobody does that, nobody is willing to give today to receive next year, and when they try to spend bitcoin they would pay the LOWEST fees they can, I have yet to see a person who sends bitcoin with higher fees when not required to just to support those miners who are sacrificing profit by not buying from bitmain, so now tell me, how do you expect miners to do all of this for you when you aren't doing anything? i find it lame that non-miners expect miners to leave money on the table for them when they are not willing to pay an extra sat per byte for miners.

favebook brought up a very valid argument which you seem to underestimate, allow me to make a better one on his behalf, or rather reconstruct in a  (funny/lame) way.

nullius, since you are an owner of bitcoin and your duty, is to protect it just as much as its mine, pay me the price difference between Bitmain and Microbt gears and I will stop buying from Bitmain.  

or in worst-case scenario.

nullius, please pay more fees for your transactions and stop paying the lowest you can so that mining profitability becomes reasonable enough for me to buy from another mining gears manufacturer.  

If you can't do that, you shouldn't be expecting him to leave money on the table, sacrifice is a two way street.

On a side note: all the "yous" are not directly pointed to nullius, it's just a representation of a miner speaking to a Hodler, nothing personal whatsoever, and I am by no means encouraging anyone to buy from Bitmain, in fact, if you have the choice and you can afford it you should always avoid Bitmain.

[philipma1957]

my t17+ is on its way .

hope it arrives monday the 27th

I will get 12-14 days in before the ½ ing


 https://bitcoinblockhalf.com/

[MoparMiningLLC]

mine is supposed to arrive on the 27th too. I am more curious to see if I will be charged the tariff or not. really depends on whether they count the shipping or not, I guess.

[philipma1957]

I use dhl they have been pretty good.

[MoparMiningLLC]

I went with fedex this time, it was about $30 cheaper on shipping - last time I used DHL the total with shipping was 808 - they hit me for the 28% so but on the order before that which was 850ish they only hit me with 2.5%.

[philipma1957]

If I pay the lower tax I will order again.

my points are at 52  we still do not know what that gets.

I have a 47 dollar coupon  which drops the gear to 762-47 = 715

This will give us  2x 58th = 116 and 70 th = 186 th

we will bring the 3 pieces to clifton  and shut down 29 s9's  they do 310th

but 310-186 = 124th   less hash  some time in may.

we will hash for  a month or two after that and add some s19 or s19 pro.

[MoparMiningLLC]

nice on the coupon - I dont have any mine all went away when btc crested 10k a while ago. but let's see if we can both dodge the tariff! lol.

[favebook]

my points are at 52  we still do not know what that gets.

Not sure if you saw my post the other day... But basically, not even Bitmain knows what they are gonna do with it. It was probably an experiment...

Dear ---------,

Thanks for your consultation!
We have not decided how to use point system yet.

Best regards,
Yucheng
Bitmain

There's an answer to all of your questions.

P.S. I bolded things I edited from their email as they are quite bad at English.

[philipma1957laptop]

I went from 44 to 52 with the new order of the t17+ so they still add the points on.

[mikeywith]

I went with fedex this time, it was about $30 cheaper on shipping.

I think most of these new gears fall into volumetric weight, where the L*W*H aka dimensions of the package exceeds the actual weight they charge you for what's called volumetric weight, depending on how each courier calculates the fees, in many cases, you will find that different miner cost less to ship via FedEx than DHL and it's pretty normal to see the exact opposite, in fact, even ordering more than 1 miner can sometimes make you pay more, I remember when ordering the worst gears of my life (S9k) shipping smaller quantities cost less, for example, if I order 3 miners together I pay 100$ each but if I ship only 2 I pay 90$ each ( rough figures), so you should always check the best combination and the best rate at the time of buying, those differ pretty much from time to time.

[MoparMiningLLC]

I see they raised the prices too - to over 800 so i for sure will not be ordering another now. my next one should arrive tomorrow though.

[philipma1957]

I see they raised the prices too - to over 800 so i for sure will not be ordering another now. my next one should arrive tomorrow though.

762 now 860

oh well

how not to sell one more to me.

[MoparMiningLLC]

whelp mine was supposed to arrive today - however, it shows it didnt leave China until 5:45am today

[philipma1957]

whelp mine was supposed to arrive today - however, it shows it didnt leave China until 5:45am today

Monday, April 27, 2020   Location   Time   Piece

17   Shipment not arrived; customs status updated   CINCINNATI HUB, OH - USA   08:51
   
16   Departed Facility in HONG KONG - HONG KONG   HONG KONG - HONG KONG   07:31   
1 Piece

15   Processed at HONG KONG - HONG KONG   HONG KONG - HONG KONG   07:05   
1 Piece


Now says this Friday.

That price rise was 762 to 860 truly knocks me out.
The delay also prevents me from being sure what my import tax is before I would have ordered a second one.
It is why I waited to order the second one. I figured it comes on Mon or Tues I know my tax bill and if it was  de minimus pacing like 30 bucks I order the second one this weds.

[AlecMe]

I believe at the moment the delays are just COVID related as Bitmain have sent the parcel out of their warehouse, as per the below:
Due consider my order was placed on the 21st and on the 22nd they had it labelled and ready to go out.

Now UPS has announced there are no guarantees on delivery dates quoting pandemic and have changed my delivery date once to 'No information available' and stayed like that for 5 days.

Today they have updated it as this Wednesday. Fingers crossed now.


Label Created   04/22/2020 1:37 P.M.    China   
Order Processed: Ready for UPS

Shipped   04/22/2020 4:08 P.M.    Shenzhen, China   
Pickup Scan

In Transit   04/26/2020 5:02 A.M.    Shenzhen, China   
Export Scan



Which courier was, in your experience, better with you in this pandemic?

Edit1:

I no longer have a delivery date on UPS, only:

In Transit   04/28/2020 7:27 A.M.    Shenzhen, China   
Your package has been delayed due to events beyond our control. We're adjusting delivery plans as quickly as possible. / Delivery will be rescheduled.
Scheduled Delivery

Please check back later for scheduled delivery.

Edit 2:

It appears my parcel has left China exactly after 7 days of being held there.

[MoparMiningLLC]

this is my first order since this whole covid thing started - I ordered on the 17th, it was packaged and sent out on the 24th -so today is 10 days since I ordered, with 4 of those 10 being the weekends I dont find that it has taken all that long. but let's see how much longer it takes - they shipped it out on friday and it left china today. the longest time was the that i ordered on the 17th and it didnt ship for 7 days though they were not slated to ship until the 21st so the 21st to the 24th is only 3 days for them to prepare and ship it.

[PopoJeff]

I completed my order for an S17+ on Friday (4/24).

( Took some back n forth with Carol to get my account credit applied. Had enough credit that the miner was free, and I'm only paying $131 + tariff for this miner. )

But as of Fri 4/24, the order was marked as PAID. Today, Monday 4/27, I received notification that the order was shipped.

DHL tracking has an ETA of Monday 5/4.
 
I chose DHL shipping this time as it was about $80 cheaper than UPS, which I used for 4 previous orders.

Summary
Waybill: xxxxxxxxxxx
Departed Facility in SHENZHEN - CHINA MAINLAND
Sign up for shipment notifications
Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 02:17
Origin Service Area:
SHENZHEN - SHENZHEN - CHINA MAINLAND
Destination Service Area:
HARRISBURG, PA - READING - USA   
Estimated Delivery:
Monday, May 04, 2020
By End of Day
1 Piece
Tuesday, April 28, 2020   Location   Time   Piece
3   Departed Facility in SHENZHEN - CHINA MAINLAND   SHENZHEN - CHINA MAINLAND   02:17   
1 Piece
2   Processed at SHENZHEN - CHINA MAINLAND   SHENZHEN - CHINA MAINLAND   00:41   
1 Piece
Monday, April 27, 2020   Location   Time   Piece
1   Shipment scheduled to be picked up   SHENZHEN - CHINA MAINLAND   16:13   
1 Piece
Hide Details

[MoparMiningLLC]

My order just flipped from showing the 27th for delivery to showing "pending" with no further info. My guess is next Monday.

[philipma1957]

My order just flipped from showing the 27th for delivery to showing "pending" with no further info. My guess is next Monday.

Yeah I had a apr 27 date it has since shifted to may 1

it is in USA it left Cincinnati and should arrive in Newark later today. In the pre cover-19 days. I would expect it on weds the 29th.  They still list it for May 1 I will take that date.

[minefarmbuy]

Looks like more inventory on the s19 models as well. Batch time changes on everthing.

[favebook]

Everything seems to be moved to June except T17+ and spot orders.

Also, S17+ has been lowered from $1320 to $1232. While T17+ still has it's raised price of $860.

As noted by minefarmbuy, S19 has been restocked.

However, even though Serbia is slowly being opened and lowering quarantine limits, Bitmain still does not allow orders for me.

[philipma1957]

My T17+ just arrived it is running okay.

[MoparMiningLLC]

My T17+ just arrived it is running okay.

ahh well maybe mine will be here soon. we both had the 27th originally for a date.

[mikeywith]

I found a very interesting read > https://news.8btc.com/bitmains-antminer-17-models-drawing-criticism-from-miners-for-high-failure-rate

Basically Chinese miners are reporting up to 30% failure rate on these 17 series, and Jihan Wu

then begged users to give Bitmain another chance and pointed out that the performance of the S19 series would be industry-leading with stability and adaptability to harsh environment

This may explain how the S19 isn't selling fast and almost always in stock, who would risk nearly $3000 for a gear that may potentially fail at a rate of 30%?


My personal experience so far.  2*S17+ > PSU/Hashboard , T17 > Temp sensor problem and S17 pro > So far okay.

So for anyone who is still buying these gears, be prepared for a 30% RMA rate or higher.

[PopoJeff]

My personal experience:  zero failure rate.   So, I'll stick with what works for me. But thanks for your input.

[philipma1957]

15 s17 pro all good

  1 s17.           good

  2 t17            good

 2 t17e           good

  2 t17+.       5 of 6 boards good.

  1 t15            good

  1 s15             good

 4 s9k             good

purchased all of the above new from Bitmain feb 2019 to April 2020 one exception the  [s15 was used]

that is a loss of a 20th board on the t17+ which kind of wants to work

all are spec the then 2x t17e which are power hungry.

I would consider that to be really good.

about 1255 out of 1275 hash works. and very close to power specs.

[MoparMiningLLC]

I have had 4 T17's, 20 S9's (4 vanilla 8 i's and 8 j's), 2 S15's, 1 L3, 3L3+'s, 4 L3++'s, 1 D3 and even though that is not a lot of miners (35) I have only ever sent one back and it was a vanilla S9.

edit: I forgot to add one more S9 that I picked up from a garage sale for $20 - it had burnt connectors on the hashboard (the little plastic part has those dividers in between the pins - those were melted) and a bad psu (the wires had somehow melted and shorted out, I believe that is what lead to the burnt/melted connectors on the hash boards) but the miner and psu still worked once I swapped the psu wires and the burnt connectors.

[philipma1957]

I have had 4 T17's, 20 S9's (4 vanilla 8 i's and 8 j's), 2 S15's, 1 L3, 3L3+'s, 4 L3++'s, 1 D3 and even though that is not a lot of miners (35) I have only ever sent one back and it was a vanilla S9.

edit: I forgot to add one more S9 that I picked up from a garage sale for $20 - it had burnt connectors on the hashboard (the little plastic part has those dividers in between the pins - those were melted) and a bad psu (the wires had somehow melted and shorted out, I believe that is what lead to the burnt/melted connectors on the hash boards) but the miner and psu still worked once I swapped the psu wires and the burnt connectors.

I have had a lot of bad:

s9's
s7's
s1  first miner I ever purchased from them came with a loose cap and would not boot.

[PopoJeff]

Oh, I forgot to add two problems Ive had.

I overheated an s17e with bad air flow. It dropped a board and wouldnt detect one board until i did about 10 restarts. Then its been fine.

I also had an S9i last summer that did something (forget exactly what).  But I disconnected the PSU, blew into the connectors like and old Atari cartridge, plugged it back in, and it was fine.

So theres that

[mikeywith]

My personal experience:  zero failure rate.   So, I'll stick with what works for me. But thanks for your input.

Luck and quantity matters, you may buy 2 gears and you get lucky with them, that's why only studies with a large number of samples can be taken seriously. also, the time factor is very important, these failures don't really show up in the first month or two, it takes time, the reason why I tend to trust the inputs coming from Chinese farms more than your words or even actually more than my experience is the fact that they have a lot more miners and have run them a lot longer.

Since I don't manufacture mining gears and I don't get paid to shill other mining equipment, my view is 100% unbiased, but by all means, go ahead buy whatever gears you want.

[...]

[...]

The article explicitly talks about the 17 series, I have vouched for the robustness of S9, S9i, S9j (not the s9K) a few times, I am not sure about the 17 series, I have neither bought enough of them nor have I run them long enough to judge with accuracy.

[PopoJeff]

... I am not sure about the 17 series, I have neither bought enough of them nor have I run them long enough to judge with accuracy.

Then why do you keep pushing your opinion, if you're going to add a little disclaimer that you dont have enough data to form an opinion?

We got it, you read an article where Chinese miners report 30% failure rate.

Got it. Thanks.

I read articles reporting btc will go to 100k.
I read articles reporting btc will drop to 2k.

As with any piece of information on the internet, I trust it as much as I trust my government.

[MoparMiningLLC]

Since I don't manufacture mining gears and I don't get paid to shill other mining equipment, my view is 100% unbiased, but by all means, go ahead buy whatever gears you want.

I don't manufacture or get paid to shill other so my opinion is also 100% unbiased. I simply put my experience down. I am sure a large farm would yield different results as they have more machines and thus more chances of failure.

but is there an issue with people sharing their experience?

[mikeywith]

Ok, let me break it down for you since you either have a comprehension issue or you are too lazy and have not read the article, and for the sake of simplicity, I like to believe the latter is the case.

The article contains words from Jihan Wu himself saying

“Bitmain is not always taking the lead in technology, especially after the success of S9 when Micree Zhan and his personal assistant were in charge of research and development. Being self-centered, he set the wrong direction in research and development, which resulted in the market’s complaints about Bitmain, such as high damage rate and poor stability, especially of the T series.”

Long story short, Bitmain "admits" these gears have issues and high rates of failure and yet a random person on the internet like yourself wants to prove the opposite.

In plain English, none of the above is my "opinion" it's your words against both Bitmain's and Chinese miners words, if you have a problem with that go complain to Jihan Wu.

Stryfe, sorry my previous reply was not for you, it was for PopoJeff, by all means, it's a pleasure to read your experience.

[PopoJeff]

Apologies Mike.... I had to look back a few pages. I got you confused with that other guy that was posting all his negative opinions.

(OPP - Old People Problems
Check forum once every few days, see that same guy bashing.
See another negative post, dont look at user name before getting snippy)

[mikeywith]

Apologies Mike....

No problem.

[favebook]

[...]

I totally agree with this!

Also, when talking about luck... Imagine this (my story):

Getting S17 Pro (first batch) and all 3 hashboard end up failing after 2-3 months. Not too bad, I can still RMA it as it is in warranty, won't cost me a lot (excluding time and shipping costs). I get new S17 Pro (after some problems with my government) and it ends up (after 1-2 months) with 2 dead hashboards and one popping up from time to time. Now I am a bit angry... It's same problem all over again, but now I am ready! I can avoid problems with my government and I hope price of fixing my gear will not be too high...

Lucky me it cost me ~$150 in shipping and $55 for repair cost. BUT, due to stupidity of my government and problems with pandemic, I had to pay VAT (20%) for the third time FOR SAME MACHINE, and lost about 5 months of mining only in waiting for shipment and government to decide wtf they want.

And that is the first unit ever I had problems with. I ordered:
- 20-30 S9s and all of them are still working (not for me however)
- 1 S15 still working (not for me)
- 2 T17+ still working (not for me)
- 5 T17e still working (not for me)
- 5 S17 Pro (1 had the problem I explained above and other 4 are working, but not for me)
- S17+ and S17e (still working and in my possession)
- 6 Z11 (still working but only 1 is in my possession).

Also, of all the PSUs I ordered, none had failed so far (ordered between 30-50 APW3+ and APW7)

So, that is quite a low failure rate for me, but it cost me a lot anyway.

[sidehack]

News about high failure rates doesn't surprise me much. I've been doing some learning on S17/T17 hardware a bit lately.

They have substantially improved airflow and heatsinking in ways which should have been obvious to them in 2015. However, depending on the model of miner, they're pulling anywhere from 14 to 21 watts PER ASIC, from the same 8x8mm package size and footprint they've been using since the S9. The package is improved with a huge exposed die for better top-cooling junction/sink connection but that's still roughly double the power per chip compared to previous miners.

[philipma1957]

T17+ is now 943 at bitmain


https://shop.bitmain.com/product/detail?pid=00020200430083357368yKGPt36e0693

[MoparMiningLLC]

ouch so they jacked the price up again.

[philipma1957]

Coins jumped over $9000.00.

And they are in stock so pay 💰 760 to 943.

would not be a terrible jump but with the 1/2 ing in 2 weeks it is a terrible jump.

[favebook]

Was about to write the same comment...

I would expect the price of S17+ to jump soon as well. However, they will probably lower the price of S19/Pro and move a date further away. And S9s will probably have a stable price between 55-100$.

[MoparMiningLLC]

except by going over 800 - even the jump in btc price doesnt compensate for the tariff expense.

[philipma1957]

Yeah but more then USA buys it.   coins were 7k now 9k.  price was 760 now 943

9000/7000 = 1.2857.  943/760 = 1.24.

so that's is close to a push. except for USA. as 760 = 0 tax. 943 = 264 tax

so the price jump is 760 to 1207.  and with 1/2 ing in 2 weeks

it will take 2x time to earn the coins.

[MoparMiningLLC]

and that is what is keeping me from ordering even though I want new gear

[philipma1957]

greed is a bitch.

out wait them  bro.

[MoparMiningLLC]

so bitcoin hits 9400 or roughly around there - and bitmain raises the price, bitcoin has now dropped to under 8500 about 10% drop - think bitmain will lower prices by 10%?

[philipma1957]

that is why greed is a bitch

Hope you are waiting I am  

[MoparMiningLLC]

I am lol i am not worried so much about their price to btc ratio just that they bring the price back to under de minimus would be nice.

[philipma1957]

I would buy today at 798 or less.

[MoparMiningLLC]

on a side note, my last order just made it to Japan about an hour ago.


edit: just got a call from fedex my shipment was in Memphis TN but was held up because customs needed my TIN/EIN --- I gave that to them when they called and asked while it was still in China... SMH

delivery is now scheduled for Monday May 4th.

[PopoJeff]

[...]

The miner arrived today. It was in Cincinnati yesterday, and DHL sent me a text with a link to pay a $49.23 import fee.  (?). I paid that online yesterday. Doorbell rings today and DHL driver says they're running ahead of schedule.   Will get it hooked up tonight.


Edit: 5/2.   Got it hooked up last night.  Up and running just dandy.

[AlecMe]

[...]

The interesting/weird thing with the import charges, which I paid online as soon as I had the message, was that UPS decided to hand-deliver it without even placing it in an envelope ......  

But, finally had the delivery today. UPS apologised as it was not up to them regarding the delay but nothing about the invoice. That was nice though.

So far, major delays were just in China, everything else was a smooth ride with hold-ups not longer than 24 hours in any of the 2 places it went through ( Incheon, Korea; and Koeln, Germany)

The miner box looks ok, guess will leave it in the garage for 3 days, just to be extra sure.

Edit:

Does anyone know the CFM or any measure of airflow required by the S17+? Thank you.

[PopoJeff]

Does anyone know the CFM or any measure of airflow required by the S17+? Thank you.

IIRC, each fan is around 250cfm. Intake and exhaust run as a team in parallel. So an upper set and a lower set.... the whole unit should be moving +/- 500 cfm.

[MoparMiningLLC]

mine is now sitting in Tampa - about 30 miles away. Slated for Monday delivery.

update: mine arrived today at 11 am - no additional amount due from fedex - so they must not have included shipping when considering the tariff

2nd update: its averaging 60 th/s not bad since it was supposed to be 58 th/s

[philipma1957]

about six days to 1/2 ing prices of all they are selling remain the same.

coins are at 8850

which for a miner are like 4425 in six dayside to 1/2 ing

don't buy any gear until the price of it drops

[AlecMe]

S17+ with 1-30 June delivery are now sold out.

Only T17+ left for 6-15 May @ $943 still ...

Is it just me or Bitmain is pushing the S17e at 60th for 896 for June deliveries? Why I believe this is the case is because all S19's are now for August deliveries. They are cleaning the old stock.


S17+ settings Menu

Go to Miner Configuration page.

Right Click and select Inspect Element.

Search for Fan_Ctrl.

Follow the image below.

These should bring you to the CODE below.

In order to access the settings simply delete all the ":none".

To show the menu go to LEGEND in order to show the menu itself.

Once saved, miner should restart automatically.

Also, the miner will reset the display to none again and in order to access them again you will have to redo all from Start.

https://pasteboard.co/J7DE366.png - Stage 1

Code:

<fieldset class="cbi-section" id="cbi-cgminer-default" style="display:none">
                  <legend>Setup</legend>

                  <div class="cbi-value" id="beep" style="display:none">

                  <div class="cbi-value" id="temp_over" style="display:none">

                  <div class="cbi-value" id="fan_ctrl" style="display:none">

                  <div class="cbi-value" id="cbi-bmminer-default-voltage" style="display:none">

                  <div class="cbi-value" id="cbi-bmminer-default-freq" style="display:none">

https://pasteboard.co/J7DDM5V.png - Stage 2

Imgur requires a mobile phone to register now, so apologies for the photos, will update in due course.