LoyceV's Beginners guide to correct use of the Trust system

[Timelord2067]

Otherwise, slapping others with negatives from on high can be construed as being unwarranted, or indeed bullying.

I'm talking about excluding them from your trust list, not about leaving negative feedback. I thought we'd been over the differences often enough by now.
Let me put it this way:
Trust list exclusion: decentralized voting.
Negative feedback: public shaming.

No.

No we haven't.  

Did you really misunderstand what I just wrote?  It seems you did.  

We are talking about the DT trust system.  (the subject of this thread as it happens)

What do you think we are talking about?

[1715613843]

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[1715613843]

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[_BlackStar]

You should add users who left accurate feedback and have good Trust lists to your Trust list, and you should exclude users who leave inaccurate feedback.
This means your Trust list should be based on how you value the users' judgement on others, and it should not be based on whether or not you Trust those users (with money) or traded with them.

LoyceV, is this an official rule or is this a suggestion from you to fix an abused system?
Actually I don't know if anyone abused this system before so that they can form a strong network and continue to get a place to be DT1 or DT2 among fellow [friends]. I mean it's not because they left accurate feedback, but because they know each other or are countrymen.

[Upgrade00]

LoyceV, is this an official rule or is this a suggestion from you to fix an abused system?

If I can chime in, I don't think there's any specific rule on generating a trust list, but there are accepted guides, one of which is the one suggested by LoyceV. It has also been sort of endorsed by the admin, so you would not go wrong by it;

LoyceV's guide seems reasonable.
...
Trust lists

 - If you find someone who has sent accurate trust actions and has no inaccurate/inappropriate trust actions, add them to your trust list. Inclusion in trust lists is a more a mark of useful contributions than your trust in them, though at least a little trust is necessary.
 - If you think that someone is not using the trust system appropriately, or if you disagree with some of their subjective determinations, exclude them from your trust list. If bad outcomes happen in DT, this is partly the fault/responsibility of: the bad actors themselves; DT1 who include the bad-actors; DT1 who don't exclude the bad-actors; DT1 who include or don't exclude failing DT1; anyone else who includes failing DT1. While it's best to spend some time trying to fix things at the lower levels before escalating it, it's reasonable to complain to any of those people, as I did regarding Lauda that one time, for example. (Of course, the system itself is probably also imperfect, and that's on me.)

I don't think Loyce has created other guides besides this, I stand to be corrected though.

[LoyceV]

LoyceV, is this an official rule or is this a suggestion from you to fix an abused system?

Both. Read this.

Actually I don't know if anyone abused this system before so that they can form a strong network and continue to get a place to be DT1 or DT2 among fellow [friends]. I mean it's not because they left accurate feedback, but because they know each other or are countrymen.

Of course it happens. I'm sure you can find countless topics about it.

[Poker Player]

A little help needed.

My dog has a Bitcointalk account and had started a personalized trust list. Since he can't operate the keyboard very well with his paws, he doesn't know how, but he ended up deleting everything. So now he has an empty trust list.
 
Can he put the original DT back somehow? Or does he simply need to create his own customized list now? Like adding the members one by one.

[LoyceV]

Can he put the original DT back somehow?

Add "DefaultTrust" to the list:

I recommend to keep DefaultTrust on the list so that you see feedback based on DT1 and DT2 members by default.

My dog has a Bitcointalk account and had started a personalized trust list. Since he can't operate the keyboard very well with his paws

Train your dog

[ifarted]

I have to say that it's quite long and very detailed. I can see that you put so much effort in this thread and it was amazing how you did it. The long text doesn't really matter that much as i have patience in reading. I am thankful for the useful detailed information you shared.

It really helps but still you could have made it shorter like a summary because i bet others would skip reading because of it's long texts. Thinking that it was tiring. Not all people likes reading some hate reading long texts but regardless of that, i still appreciate you work.  You put a lot of hardwork.

[LoyceV]

I am thankful for the useful detailed information you shared.

I would believe you if you would have created your own Trust list. Unfortunately, you didn't.

It really helps but still you could have made it shorter like a summary

This topic is the summary.

i bet others would skip reading because of it's long texts. Thinking that it was tiring.

The Twitter generation isn't my target audience here. Theymos made a complicated Trust system, I can't do it justice by summarizing in 140 characters.

[ifarted]

I am thankful for the useful detailed information you shared.

I would believe you if you would have created your own Trust list. Unfortunately, you didn't.

It really helps but still you could have made it shorter like a summary

This topic is the summary.

i bet others would skip reading because of it's long texts. Thinking that it was tiring.

The Twitter generation isn't my target audience here. Theymos made a complicated Trust system, I can't do it justice by summarizing in 140 characters.

I'm afraid i'm still new. I recently became a member. I'm sorry if i made a mistake there or either offended you. Although i did not create my own, it is still useful and helpful. I'm not gonna deny it, it's still fact. I'm actually reading it for furthermore knowledge that i can use someday. I'm might not be creating now for some reasons but i will eventually someday. I can always looked back at your thread and follow the instructions if i am gonna create it. I hope you'll understand. Thank you.

[Poker Player]

Hi LoyceV.

After rereading the thread, this time all the pages, I have a couple of questions.

A) As for leaving feedback, I understand that it is mainly to be used if 1) you have traded with someone or if 2) you would trust someone to trade, even if you have not traded yet. This second part is more subjective and can be based on his behavior in the forum. 1) is straightforward, for example, you can leave a feedback: "I traded 0,1 BTC for x Eth, trade went smoothly".

But don't you think that leaving feedback because you would hypothetically trust to make a trade with someone (2) is more subjective and may result in people leaving feedback simply because they like the other person, for example? (Although if they like the other person, it is normal that they would trust him to make at least some small deal but I hope you get the idea).

seems to me that I will have to rethink and maybe delete or modify some feedbacks I had left.

B) As for building the trust list, how do you do it? I mean, I think it's clear what needs to be done, but how often do you add or remove people? Do you do it as it comes? If you see someone leave feedback that catches your attention, you go and look at their trust list and then decide whether to include or exclude them from yours?

[LoyceV]

A) As for leaving feedback, I understand that it is mainly to be used if 1) you have traded with someone or if 2) you would trust someone to trade, even if you have not traded yet. This second part is more subjective and can be based on his behavior in the forum. 1) is straightforward, for example, you can leave a feedback: "I traded 0,1 BTC for x Eth, trade went smoothly".

Well, it depends: If you traded with someone, does that mean you trust him? If you didn't risk anything, neutral feedback may be the better choice. But if you do trust him, leave positive feedback.

But don't you think that leaving feedback because you would hypothetically trust to make a trade with someone (2) is more subjective and may result in people leaving feedback simply because they like the other person, for example?

I've received several positive feedbacks from (by now) DT-members, many of those have nothing to do with trades. Obviously it's subjective, but those feedbacks are a lot harder to "earn" than for instance trading 0.1 BTC for a shitcoin.

seems to me that I will have to rethink and maybe delete or modify some feedbacks I had left.

It never hurts to check if old feedback is still appropriate.

B) As for building the trust list, how do you do it? I mean, I think it's clear what needs to be done, but how often do you add or remove people? Do you do it as it comes? If you see someone leave feedback that catches your attention, you go and look at their trust list and then decide whether to include or exclude them from yours?

I like to say I'm quite conservative: I barely change my Trust list, and most changes were to exclude someone instead of including them.

I'm also quite conservative with positive feedback. There are many users by now who I'd trust in a trade though, but I never went on a positive feedback spree.

[Timelord2067]

I was just wondering what your thoughts are of DT1 users (regardless of whether or not they are plus or minus) who DT trust a user who has been banned for quite some time?

In the scenario I'm thinking of, a user in the past DT trusted another user, but over time that user is now banned.

Said DT1 user does from time to time modify their DT trust list, so it's not like they picked some random users and then years later have forgotten what they did.

Hypothetically speaking...

[LoyceV]

I was just wondering what your thoughts are of DT1 users (regardless of whether or not they are plus or minus) who DT trust a user who has been banned for quite some time?

If someone on my Trust list gets banned, I'd probably review their Sent feedback before taking a decision.
The last time I saw banned DT2-members (DyslexicZombei and funnychain) was 1.5 months ago. Those users are still included by Dabs, so they'll be on DT2 again once either examplens or nutildah drops off DT1. The second user (funnychain) doesn't have any Sent feedback.
Dabs included many users who shouldn't be on DT2, but left him positive feedback. I'd call that Trust Selfscratching: his Trust ratings go from (Trust: +9 / =0 / -0) to (Trust: +39 / =0 / -0) depending on whether or not he's on DT1. Dabs is included by theymos, which is interesting since theymos recommends this:

List the users who you trust to have good trust ratings and good trust lists

If excluded DT1-members include banned users it doesn't really matter: excluded DT1-members can only "vote" for DT1, not for DT2.

Said DT1 user does from time to time modify their DT trust list, so it's not like they picked some random users and then years later have forgotten what they did.

Is their feedback still accurate?

Hypothetically speaking...

I'm bad at hypothetical Seriously though: it depends on the feedback they've left.

[Poker Player]

What do you think about having a short custom trust list? At the moment I have 4 people and no one excluded, but no hurry, little by little I can add more and also put excluded. I guess there is no minimum and maximum, I don't remember reading anything about it.

[LoyceV]

What do you think about having a short custom trust list? At the moment I have 4 people and no one excluded, but no hurry, little by little I can add more

That makes more sense than adding a long list without really checking their feedbacks.

I guess there is no minimum and maximum, I don't remember reading anything about it.

The maximum is around 30,000, my guess is it's limited by the forum time-out (just like the Ignore list can't be viewed anymore when it gets too long).

[Timelord2067]

I guess it's similar to including Zepher who is no longer with us. Their posts are relevant therefore there is no need to remove their name as they are still relevant.  I'll have a bit more of a look as you suggest.

BTW Tor browser is currently giving me an error: Secure Connection Failed for your site.

[LoyceV]

BTW Tor browser is currently giving me an error: Secure Connection Failed for your site.

Fixed

[Poker Player]

seems to me that I will have to rethink and maybe delete or modify some feedbacks I had left.

I've been reviewing feedbacks and I think I'm going to leave them as they are. The negative ones I have clear, and the positive ones, although they are more subjective and not related to having traded, are to people I would trust to make a deal with.

For example, I have two positive feedbacks to Rikafip and lovesmayfamilis for being scam and spam fighters. To me that fact gives me confidence if I were to trade money with them. I wouldn't put all my net worth blindly in their hands but if I had to do a small deal, let's say exchange $100-200 Bitcoin for some shitcoin with lovesmayfamilis I would send him the money first with my eyes closed. The same as for xhomerx10, JayJuanGee etc.

What do you think about it?

Btw, I visited loyce.club to see if the trust had been updated (I see it hasn't yet) but I have to tell you that I find it a bit difficult to navigate. Once you go into the folder, can you search for users with any command or do you have to go through them one by one until you find the one you want?

I don't know if you have somewhere an explanation about loyce.club for dummies. Are they ftp files?

[LoyceV]

The same as for xhomerx10

This one strikes me as odd:

I trust him to make deals with because without knowing me at all, has designed me an avatar in a totally disinterested way and without asking for anything in return.

What do you think about it?

It doesn't make sense to me to trust someone in a deal that hasn't happened yet, just because he made an avatar. For the record: I have no reason not to trust xhomerx10.

I visited loyce.club to see if the trust had been updated (I see it hasn't yet)

It's updated now.

I have to tell you that I find it a bit difficult to navigate. Once you go into the folder, can you search for users with any command or do you have to go through them one by one until you find the one you want?

On the latest Trust list overview, just use CTRL-F to find a user. Or this:

Starting point of the week to avoid (slow) loading the large index page: Trust list for: Poker Player (Trust: +1 / =0 / -0) (702 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP).
Or use https://loyce.club/profile.html?id=2836461 or BPIP for easier navigation.

I usually click "Trust list" to jump from one user's Trust list to another (within the same week).

I don't know if you have somewhere an explanation about loyce.club for dummies. Are they ftp files?

I never got to add some (long planned) design to loyce.club, so it's still mainly about raw data. Maybe [overview] LoyceV's useful data on Bitcointalk helps a bit.

I have two positive feedbacks to ~ for being scam and spam fighters. To me that fact gives me confidence if I were to trade money with them

For $200, sure, but for larger amounts: being a scam fighter doesn't mean much. I've seen "scam fighters" turn into scammers the moment they had the chance. There's one in particular I have in mind, I think he defaulted on a several Bitcoin loan, but I can't remember his name (and I searched for a long time).

[Poker Player]

This one strikes me as odd:

I trust him to make deals with because without knowing me at all, has designed me an avatar in a totally disinterested way and without asking for anything in return.

What do you think about it?

It doesn't make sense to me to trust someone in a deal that hasn't happened yet, just because he made an avatar. For the record: I have no reason not to trust xhomerx10.

It is clear to me that here we are specifically talking about whether the feedback is well placed, not whether we like him or he is a good guy.

In this case I think I have a good reason to give him positive feedback but maybe I will have to change it because it is not well explained. And if you see it as given lightly, surely others do too.

Actually, with xhomerx10 there was something more like a deal than with the others. He made me the avatar without asking for anything in return, but when he finished I sent him a tip.

So, the relevant question is:

If I can trust that he is going to do a job for free, won't it be logical to trust him also if we make a previous economic deal?

Surely for you to make an avatar will be something easy, but for me it is not. Before contacting him I was trying to edit and I got some changes, but not what I wanted. When I contacted him, I asked him if he charged anything for making the avatars and he told me that he didn't, and that he made them for WO gang members, and in some cases for other members as well.

I told him that I occasionally wrote in the WO and he agreed to do it for me. When he finished, I thought I would send him a tip, and when I received the outstanding payment from Lightlord, I did.

I really appreciate it when a person who doesn't know me at all offers to do work for me for free. And if tomorrow, let's say I have a website and I want him to design the cover. He tells me he's going to charge me $100.

If he did the job when he didn't know me at all and for free, I won't trust him to do it for me if I pay him?

I think so, and that's why I left the feedback.

Another doubt I have is regarding neutral feedbacks, I have seen that people leave neutral feedback, even when there has been monetary exchange and you also mentioned something about it in another post. I don't quite understand it, isn't trust feedback supposed to be precisely for that? If you make exchanges with money involved, and they go well, I understand that the feedback should be positive.

Something else: I've seen my updated trust list in Loyce.club and 1miau still distrust my list but I think he distrusted it when my dog deleted all people that was in my previous list. People like 1miau are supposed to review this? Or maybe if I see it's been a while I can send him a PM to see if he wants to check the new list?

For $200, sure, but for larger amounts: being a scam fighter doesn't mean much. I've seen "scam fighters" turn into scammers the moment they had the chance. There's one in particular I have in mind, I think he defaulted on a several Bitcoin loan, but I can't remember his name (and I searched for a long time).

As the saying goes: "the opportunity makes the thief".

As you go up in quantity, no matter who you make deals with, it is wise to take security measures. I could probably get a non-collateralized loan for $200 on the forum, but if I ask for $20,000, I will likely be asked to leave some kind of collateral such as a shitcoin as collateral, no matter how good a reputation I may have.