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Author Topic: Trust System Abuse By Nullius  (Read 5530 times)
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January 28, 2020, 09:49:38 PM
 #21

You're free to think the above but I think that any reasonable person would conclude by looking at TECSHARE's trading history that trading with him is not high-risk. Debating politics with him might carry a high risk of being trolled but that doesn't call for a red rating.
Bingo.  Frankly the only thing I tend to not trust about TECSHARE are some of his trust ratings, which is why I have him ~'ed in my trust list.  Other than that I don't consider him untrustworthy in the least--in fact, he has a very long history of completing trades to the satisfaction of his counterparties and thus it comes down to a case of leaving red trust for someone whose opinions/interpretation of facts/whatever doesn't jibe with your own.  I don't think the trust system ought to be used for that, and it seems like we've had this debate before.

As an aside, reading through this thread it struck me that we haven't heard from CH/TOAA ever since he promised to leave the forum--or I may have missed their posts, but I don't think I did.  Hooray for that but boo for all of this other drama.  Where are Rodney King's words when you need them?

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January 28, 2020, 09:57:39 PM
 #22

To be clear upfront:  Threats of ~nullius will have zero impact on my decision-making process.  I will not change my decisions to avoid exclusions, any more than I would change my decisions to scratch someone’s back for inclusions—both are equally corrupt.  I make my decisions independently.

4. You mean all your frivolous positives you have received for non-trade related subjects?

Positivs can be left for something as simple as "This user seems smart"

Merely being smart doesn't make someone unlikely to scam so that's probably not a good reason for a positive rating.

That is a custom specific to the Development & Technology forum—only well-known to regulars there, and very well-known to regulars there, together with the use of the merit system to endorse technical correctness.  If you need to assess whether you should trust highly technical, jargon-filled posts about subjects that you are only learning, you look for merit and feedback from well-known experts.  Otherwise, you risk being misled by self-styled Internet pseudo-experts who make it up as they go along, on the basis of “if you can’t convince ’em, confuse ’em”.  All too oft, those are the ones spouting FUD against Bitcoin and/or Lightning, and/or giving extremely poor security “advice” that they just made up on the spot to sound smart.

Moreover, you are misinterpreting the nature of the feedback.  It is not merely marking out smarts, but trustworthiness in applying those smarts.

For a real-world exampe to illustrate why:  The original creator of brainwallet.org undoubtedly had a high IQ, and a strong technical competence in Bitcoin.  He did it to fool people into making wallets that he could more easily crack, a concept later demonstrated by whitehat ryanc’s brainflayer (created to show people WHY YOU SHOULD NOT USE BRAINWALLETS).  Dev & Tech still sometimes suffers “security advice” from brainwallet advocates who are probably just itching to use brainflayer themselves.

When you see a brainwallet advocate tell you X, Y, and Z about technical topics you don’t understand, and you see nullius saying, “This is a wallet thief giving bad advice so that he can steal your money with an offline attack!”, how do you choose whose technical advice to trust?  Well, you hop over to my trust page, you see that a staff member/Core Dev marked me as trustworthy, and you DO NOT USE BRAINWALLETS!

There are also BCH advocates with technical skills, who sometimes make arguments that cannot be motivated by other than malice:  They know enough to damn well know that what they are saying is not correct!  The same principle applies.

1. Then expect to be ~ because frivolous negatives are much more serious than frivolous positives..

I disagree, as stated above.

A hard-learned lesson gives an empirical example of why: alia, and theymos’ positive feedback for alia (screenshots of which still exist somewhere in the alia scam investigation megathread).

I am not blaming theymos for my own actions:  I am blaming my own foolishness in being insufficiently conservative in weighing positive feedback.  I was still green in handling the trust system, and relatively forum-naïve about all the things one can’t learn just by lurking without interaction.  Because it was a positive (not a neutral), and because of who it was from, I misread into it all kinds of things that theymos did not actually say in the feedback text.  That was admittedly poor judgment on my own part—but nevertheless, it shows how damaging erroneous positive feedback can be!

5. We are constantly evolving the trust system to what the community consensus sees fit.. The "laws" have not been drastically rewritten in any gamechanging way allowing for the frivolous use of negative trust..

You contradict yourself.  You call my tech-related positive feedbacks “frivolous”, because they do not pertain to trades; but that is a local community consensus that evolved in the Dev & Tech forum.

Moreover, these things only “evolve” somehow:  They evolve when somebody uses the trust system to fill an actual need, and explains to others why this is wise and beneficial.



The foregoing was dashed off in haste, and is admittedly a bit inadequate for addressing the complex issues hereby raised; and I have perforce in haste ignored other posts raising other points.  I am only trying to cover the key points for now; I will be back later.

One other important point for now:

Positivs can be left for something as simple as "This user seems smart"
Merely being smart doesn't make someone unlikely to scam so that's probably not a good reason for a positive rating.
Although the evidence isn't that strong (as tends to be with psychology), the above statement is wrong. Not being smart makes you more likely of committing a crime (i.e. scamming). Here. Also as per Ellis, Beaver & Wright 2009, several personality traits correlate strongly with likelihood of committing a crime (scamming). However, in general I agree with you due to my conservative stance on issuing positive ratings as false credibility poses a huge risk of an user scamming somebody.

That is true, but not applicable to Dev & Tech positive feedback for trustworthy technical advice.

Many high-IQ people are dishonest, criminal-minded scum.  They usually become politicians, lawyers, bankers, brainwallet advocates, Bcashers...  I also would not underestimate Faketoshi’s IQ—though I would not overestimate it based on his diploma-mill act, either!  (It is actually difficult to judge his intelligence based on his writings, because I presume he may have help due to the types of agendas that dovetail with his.)

Low general intelligence indeed correlates with certain types of crimes, including garden-variety scams plus “street crime”.  +1 for science!

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January 28, 2020, 10:23:44 PM
 #23

It is not merely marking out smarts, but trustworthiness in applying those smarts.

I was still green in handling the trust system, and relatively forum-naïve about all the things one can’t learn just by lurking without interaction.  

~nullius would be the proper action for being untrustworthy in the way you apply your "smarts" to the trust system..
Do your thing, whatever you want, but I don't think it works or is going to work in the way you insist it does, especially just because you insist that it does or will..

You are still "green"..
Your self confidence that you are not is a mistake IMO that will come back to bite you..
Excessive confidence and absolutism may make you seem smart when you are correct, but when you are eventually and inevitably wrong it doesn't leave much room to correct yourself or save face..

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January 28, 2020, 10:27:14 PM
 #24

That is a custom specific to the Development & Technology forum—only well-known to regulars there, and very well-known to regulars there, together with the use of the merit system to endorse technical correctness.

That doesn't make it good for the rest of the forum. Technically (pun intended) dev&tech users who do that should be excluded from DT and can form their own trust network to pat themselves on the back with positive trust ratings.
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January 28, 2020, 10:29:50 PM
 #25

That is a custom specific to the Development & Technology forum—only well-known to regulars there, and very well-known to regulars there, together with the use of the merit system to endorse technical correctness.
That doesn't make it good for the rest of the forum. Technically (pun intended) dev&tech users who do that should be excluded from DT and can form their own trust network to pat themselves on the back with positive trust ratings.
Are you implicitly saying that achow101 should be excluded because of this as well? I'm just trying to understand the extent of this statement..

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January 28, 2020, 10:39:23 PM
 #26

You're free to think the above but I think that any reasonable person would conclude by looking at TECSHARE's trading history that trading with him is not high-risk. Debating politics with him might carry a high risk of being trolled but that doesn't call for a red rating.
Bingo.  Frankly the only thing I tend to not trust about TECSHARE are some of his trust ratings, which is why I have him ~'ed in my trust list.  Other than that I don't consider him untrustworthy in the least--in fact, he has a very long history of completing trades to the satisfaction of his counterparties and thus it comes down to a case of leaving red trust for someone whose opinions/interpretation of facts/whatever doesn't jibe with your own.  I don't think the trust system ought to be used for that, and it seems like we've had this debate before.

As an aside, reading through this thread it struck me that we haven't heard from CH/TOAA ever since he promised to leave the forum--or I may have missed their posts, but I don't think I did.  Hooray for that but boo for all of this other drama.  Where are Rodney King's words when you need them?

What trust ratings of mine are objectionable exactly? Are you sure this is not just you making excuses for your personal antipathy? You seem quite obsessed with me.
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January 28, 2020, 10:41:15 PM
 #27

That is a custom specific to the Development & Technology forum—only well-known to regulars there, and very well-known to regulars there, together with the use of the merit system to endorse technical correctness.
That doesn't make it good for the rest of the forum. Technically (pun intended) dev&tech users who do that should be excluded from DT and can form their own trust network to pat themselves on the back with positive trust ratings.
Are you implicitly saying that achow101 should be excluded because of this as well? I'm just trying to understand the extent of this statement..

So, thus far, suchmoon proposes (either explicitly or by unavoidable implication):

Code:
~Vod
~achow101

Who’s next?  How far will this go?  It is not exactly a winning argument, if you want to keep anybody with sound judgment in DT.

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January 28, 2020, 10:55:34 PM
 #28

Are you implicitly saying that achow101 should be excluded because of this as well? I'm just trying to understand the extent of this statement..

Hypothetically: if he's posting frivolous trust ratings - he should be informed about it. He's probably a reasonable person and might be simply mistaken. My comment was based entirely on nullius' assertion that it's a "custom" on D&T. If true that's a bad custom for the rest of the forum. I haven't looked into any of that myself.

Who’s next?  How far will this go?  It is not exactly a winning argument, if you want to keep anybody with sound judgment in DT.

Assuming someone would continue posting frivolous trust ratings after being informed that those ratings don't meet the "unlikely to scam" or "high-risk trading" thresholds - that's not sound judgement, regardless of their technical expertise.
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January 28, 2020, 10:59:53 PM
Last edit: January 28, 2020, 11:11:43 PM by Lauda
Merited by nullius (1)
 #29

Are you implicitly saying that achow101 should be excluded because of this as well? I'm just trying to understand the extent of this statement..

Hypothetically: if he's posting frivolous trust ratings - he should be informed about it. He's probably a reasonable person and might be simply mistaken. My comment was based entirely on nullius' assertion that it's a "custom" on D&T. If true that's a bad custom for the rest of the forum. I haven't looked into any of that myself.

Who’s next?  How far will this go?  It is not exactly a winning argument, if you want to keep anybody with sound judgment in DT.

Assuming someone would continue posting frivolous trust ratings after being informed that those ratings don't meet the "unlikely to scam" or "high-risk trading" thresholds - that's not sound judgement, regardless of their technical expertise.
His rating on nullius (which is how I derived my question to begin with):

Quote
achow101   2018-02-13      Very knowledgeable about Bitcoin and cryptography related things. Frequently gives in-depth, constructive, and well though out answers on various topics.

I'm don't think he'd remove it, his rating on shorena is also (per your standards here) wrong upon inspection.

Quote
shorena   2015-10-07      Great Guy. He always helps out with people and helps them fix problems that they have.

I don't want to drag achow101 into this and my belief that he would refuse is based on my understanding of the person. If you plan on going via this route, then I can bring you a very extensive list of users that you'd need to inform and/or later exclude..  and it would be even worse to do this just to some of the users and not all of them  Undecided

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January 28, 2020, 11:25:51 PM
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 #30

I don't want to drag achow101 into this and my belief that he would refuse is based on my understanding of the person. If you plan on going via this route, then I can bring you a very extensive list of users that you'd need to inform and/or later exclude..  and it would be even worse to do this just to some of the users and not all of them  Undecided

I don't plan on going any route that you guys are trying to push me into. It's not my obligation to fix every incorrectness on this forum or to engage in some sort of affirmative action so that God forbid someone isn't praised or punished exactly the same way as someone else.

Let's just stay on topic for now. Try to convince me how TECSHARE is high-risk to trade with.
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January 28, 2020, 11:55:22 PM
 #31

What trust ratings of mine are objectionable exactly?

Still waiting on my certification of mental illness from your doctor...   Roll Eyes

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January 29, 2020, 12:07:49 AM
 #32

My comment was based entirely on nullius' assertion that it's a "custom" on D&T. If true that's a bad custom for the rest of the forum. I haven't looked into any of that myself.

So, you would make unavailable a useful and necessary tool for what I, and no doubt others, regard as one of the most important forums (together with its virtual sibling, Beginners & Help)?

I suggest that before you say such a thing, you should spend some time fighting anti-Bitcoin pseudo-technical FUD, technical scams such as brainwallets, and all-around bad advice.

The forum is not only for trading, you know.  I myself have never yet traded with the public here; although I may someday, I did not originally come here for the purpose of making money!  I came to the Bitcoin Forum founded by Satoshi, for the immediate purpose of engaging in technical discussions.

Let's just stay on topic for now. Try to convince me how TECSHARE is high-risk to trade with.

If your extremely narrow trading-forum trust feedback standard is harmful to the rest of the forum, I suggest that “that's a bad custom for the rest of the forum”-

What’s next?  Bringing back “Risked BTC amount”?  And/or limiting negative trust feedback to violations of a written contract?  Well, that is why we now have Type-3 flags.



Note re my “assertion” about Dev & Tech:  It is not a written rule.  Just one of those things that you will pick up if you post there regularly for at least a month or two, check the feedback on other regulars, and see what the smart people are doing.



I don't plan on going any route that you guys are trying to push me into.

Nobody is trying to push you into anything.

You are trying to push me into removing my support for several tags which include negative feedback left by somebody on your explicit inclusions list.  I am advising you to apply the same standards without bias:  Either ~ both of us, or neither of us.  To do otherwise would show poor judgment, at best.

Others here have defamed me as having “frivolous feedback”—which includes feedback left by a staff member who is one of the most highly-trusted, widely-included members of the forum, plus by other tech-forum regulars.  It has been pointed out to you that if you agree that that is “frivolous feedback”, then your tilde key will start to be quite busy if you uphold your own purported standards.  Nobody is trying to push you into anything.

I don’t plan on going the route of being pushed into removing feedback is correct according to my own judgment.  I will also not be pushed into letting you set a peremptory standard for trust feedback, and then force me to argue according to your exact demands.  If I choose to further spend my own time explaining feedback that is self-explanatory, I will not do so on those terms.

Please feel free to make your own independent decisions—as I will make mine, independently of you and everybody else.

To be clear upfront:  Threats of ~nullius will have zero impact on my decision-making process.  I will not change my decisions to avoid exclusions, any more than I would change my decisions to scratch someone’s back for inclusions—both are equally corrupt.  I make my decisions independently.

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January 29, 2020, 12:43:30 AM
 #33

The forum is not only for trading, you know.  I myself have never yet traded with the public here; although I may someday, I did not originally come here for the purpose of making money!  I came to the Bitcoin Forum founded by Satoshi, for the immediate purpose of engaging in technical discussions.

Ask theymos to remove the word "trading" from the description of red trust and I'll reconsider my POV. Until then your use of negative trust indicates to me that you're either misusing it or that your judgement is flawed if you truly think that TECSHARE is high-risk in trading.

Let's just stay on topic for now. Try to convince me how TECSHARE is high-risk to trade with.

If your extremely narrow trading-forum trust feedback standard is harmful to the rest of the forum, I suggest that “that's a bad custom for the rest of the forum”-

What’s next?  Bringing back “Risked BTC amount”?  And/or limiting negative trust feedback to violations of a written contract?  Well, that is why we now have Type-3 flags.

Come on now. I know you're smarter than that. Let's not insult each other's intelligence by resorting to fallacies.

Is TECSHARE really high-risk in trading and why?
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January 29, 2020, 12:58:13 AM
 #34

The forum is not only for trading, you know.  I myself have never yet traded with the public here; although I may someday, I did not originally come here for the purpose of making money!  I came to the Bitcoin Forum founded by Satoshi, for the immediate purpose of engaging in technical discussions.

Ask theymos to remove the word "trading" from the description of red trust and I'll reconsider my POV. Until then your use of negative trust indicates to me that you're either misusing it or that your judgement is flawed if you truly think that TECSHARE is high-risk in trading.

If that is a concise statement of your opinion, then please feel free to ~nullius—just be sure to ~ everybody else who issues any positive or negative feedback for any reason not meeting your extremely narrow standard.  Starting with all makers of the feedback that I was supporting.

Further discussion is unwarranted, when I have clearly stated the conditions for my removal of my “counter”:

Because it explicitly is a “counter”, I will remove my “counter” if figmentofmyass, eddie13, and BayAreaCoins all remove their positive “counters”—and not otherwise.  However, this will not stop the potential that now that I am examining TECSHARE, I may independently add my own negative feedback at some point; and such a thing would absolutely and unarguably stay put until either hell freezes over, or I mine a Bitcoin block on my Raspberry Pi.  Perhaps longer.



If your extremely narrow trading-forum trust feedback standard is harmful to the rest of the forum, I suggest that “that's a bad custom for the rest of the forum”-

What’s next?  Bringing back “Risked BTC amount”?  And/or limiting negative trust feedback to violations of a written contract?  Well, that is why we now have Type-3 flags.

Come on now. I know you're smarter than that. Let's not insult each other's intelligence by resorting to fallacies.

Reductio ad absurdum is not a fallacy.  To the contrary.

Now please, let’s not insult each other’s intelligence with “I know you’re smarter than that” backhanded compliments.

Anything else I could say to your latest post would be a rehash of what I have already said.

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January 29, 2020, 01:13:09 AM
 #35

If that is a concise statement of your opinion, then please feel free to ~nullius—just be sure to ~ everybody else who issues any positive or negative feedback for any reason not meeting your extremely narrow standard.  Starting with all makers of the feedback that I was supporting.

Again, that's not my standard but something you agree with when you post negative trust. At the very least you gotta be able to explain how trading with the person is high-risk.

Now please, let’s not insult each other’s intelligence with “I know you’re smarter than that” backhanded compliments.

Anything else I could say to your latest post would be a rehash of what I have already said.

That was genuine. I do think you're smart. Smarter than me most likely although that's not saying much. Don't let a disagreement make everything I say look suspicious.
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January 29, 2020, 03:29:29 AM
Last edit: January 29, 2020, 03:55:03 AM by nullius
Merited by johhnyUA (1)
 #36

Excessive confidence and absolutism may make you seem smart when you are correct, but when you are eventually and inevitably wrong it doesn't leave much room to correct yourself or save face..

Your premise of “excessive confidence and absolutism” is incorrect—as is your assumption that I do not correct myself when I err (as inevitably occurs sometimes in mortal humans).  You don’t know me very well, to rather understate the matter.  But the point is moot, for I am not wrong here.

[Substantive edit:  ...except in an embarrassing typographic error and inadequate proofreading in the topic title.  Err though I did, I do know how to spell “quelle”.  I hereby apologize to France.  See?  I correct myself.]



4. You mean all your frivolous positives you have received for non-trade related subjects?
This is incorrect. People are more likely to be actually trustworthy based on these long-standing ratings (i.e. continued display of X) rather than someone who just farms up with pajeet trade-deals. People really need to learn how to exercise caution when giving out positives.

^^^ THIS.  The facile granting of positive trust shows the worst poor judgment short of actual malice.  That is no grand discovery on my part:  It merely ancient wisdom of the type once upon a time called “common sense”.  Any intelligent person over the age of 30 knows IRL to damn well distrust the judgment of people who trust others with foolish, childish ease.  And on the forum, ~ exists for exactly this purpose.

I find it interesting that, objectively applied, suchmoon’s proposed standard (which, pretenses to the contrary notwithstanding, is just that and no more!) will allow either positive or negative feedback based on a 0.00001 BTC trade—but will disallow any feedback at all based on such non-trading-related honest or dishonest behaviour as can have an extraordinary real impact, for good or for ill.

That aside, part of the deeper problem here is that the Reputation forum is dominated by those who are most vocal about trust decisions that they dislike.  Those mostly fall into two categories:  Principled people, and whiners who got smacked with well-deserved negative trust.  Now, which of those will complain about lightly-given positive feedback?  And which group is far more numerous?



As an aside, reading through this thread it struck me that we haven't heard from CH/TOAA ever since he promised to leave the forum--or I may have missed their posts, but I don't think I did.  Hooray for that but boo for all of this other drama.

Indeed.  TECSHARE will not hereby exercise even the slightest influence over my actions—not directly, and not indirectly.  However, given some unexpected help, he has inadvertently succeeded at wasting my time that I had allocated for important tasks.



Now please, let’s not insult each other’s intelligence with “I know you’re smarter than that” backhanded compliments.

That was genuine. I do think you're smart. Smarter than me most likely although that's not saying much. Don't let a disagreement make everything I say look suspicious.

I duly apologize if I misinterpreted you amidst a spirited debate.

As to the subject in itself, I do not care to argue it further.  My position is clear, and will not change.  If you choose to exclude me over that, then I will look to see if you consistently exclude others on the same basis as you state; and I will be very sorry that DT manipulator TECSHARE managed to troll you into helping assuage his fear of what will happen to poor, oppressed scammers and other wrongdoers if/when Nullius the Terrible gets into DT.

Anything else I could say to your latest post would be a rehash of what I have already said.

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January 29, 2020, 03:46:44 AM
 #37

I find it interesting that, objectively applied, suchmoon’s proposed standard (which, pretenses to the contrary notwithstanding, is just that and no more!) will allow either positive or negative feedback based on a 0.00001 BTC trade—but will disallow any feedback at all based on such non-trading-related honest or dishonest behaviour as can have an extraordinary real impact, for good or for ill.

That's incorrect. I didn't say that every trade deserves feedback or that trust ratings must be based on trades, and I don't believe the wording on the trust page requires that. Positive or negative trust ratings may be based on other facts as long as you can show either that the person is unlikely to scam or that trading with the person is high-risk. A successful 0.00001 BTC trade may not mean the person is unlikely to scam. A successful 1 BTC via escrow may not mean the person is unlikely to scam. Someone impersonating another user may be deemed high-risk preemptively.

TECSHARE is still not high-risk.
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January 29, 2020, 04:07:05 AM
 #38

I find it interesting that, objectively applied, suchmoon’s proposed standard (which, pretenses to the contrary notwithstanding, is just that and no more!) will allow either positive or negative feedback based on a 0.00001 BTC trade—but will disallow any feedback at all based on such non-trading-related honest or dishonest behaviour as can have an extraordinary real impact, for good or for ill.

That's incorrect. I didn't say that every trade deserves feedback or that trust ratings must be based on trades, and I don't believe the wording on the trust page requires that. Positive or negative trust ratings may be based on other facts as long as you can show either that the person is unlikely to scam or that trading with the person is high-risk. A successful 0.00001 BTC trade may not mean the person is unlikely to scam. A successful 1 BTC via escrow may not mean the person is unlikely to scam. Someone impersonating another user may be deemed high-risk preemptively.

Thank you for clarifying.

What about somebody who has malicious, dishonest motives other than simply outright stealing money?  For a concrete example, I have oft observed (including earlier on this thread!) that high-intelligence scum usually prefer becoming politicians, lawyers, bankers, etc. to being low-grade scammers or street criminals.

Many such people will execute perfectly correct trades with you—even for millions or billions of dollars.  Is it wrong for me to label some large, perhaps large majority subset of that group as untrustworthy and likely to harm people?

That is only a conceptual example, for the purpose of illustrating my point—though I must observe that in DT politics, TECSHARE’s general behaviour is what would be expected of a moderately shrewd low-grade political jobber.

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January 29, 2020, 05:03:39 AM
 #39

I find it interesting that, objectively applied, suchmoon’s proposed standard (which, pretenses to the contrary notwithstanding, is just that and no more!) will allow either positive or negative feedback based on a 0.00001 BTC trade—but will disallow any feedback at all based on such non-trading-related honest or dishonest behaviour as can have an extraordinary real impact, for good or for ill.

That's incorrect. I didn't say that every trade deserves feedback or that trust ratings must be based on trades, and I don't believe the wording on the trust page requires that. Positive or negative trust ratings may be based on other facts as long as you can show either that the person is unlikely to scam or that trading with the person is high-risk. A successful 0.00001 BTC trade may not mean the person is unlikely to scam. A successful 1 BTC via escrow may not mean the person is unlikely to scam. Someone impersonating another user may be deemed high-risk preemptively.

Thank you for clarifying.

What about somebody who has malicious, dishonest motives other than simply outright stealing money?  For a concrete example, I have oft observed (including earlier on this thread!) that high-intelligence scum usually prefer becoming politicians, lawyers, bankers, etc. to being low-grade scammers or street criminals.

Many such people will execute perfectly correct trades with you—even for millions or billions of dollars.  Is it wrong for me to label some large, perhaps large majority subset of that group as untrustworthy and likely to harm people?

That is only a conceptual example, for the purpose of illustrating my point—though I must observe that in DT politics, TECSHARE’s general behaviour is what would be expected of a moderately shrewd low-grade political jobber.

AKA, I disagree with you and you don't like it, and you are willing to use the trust system as a tool of retribution for daring to disagree.
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January 29, 2020, 05:05:59 AM
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 #40

AKA, I disagree with you and you don't like it, and you are willing to use the trust system as a tool of retribution for daring to disagree.

Like you did with me, hypocrite.   Roll Eyes

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