[ANN] BitcoinSpinner

[terrytibbs]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53932.0

[kwukduck]

Since we're back at using centralized solutions, we might aswell drop bitcoin and go back to classical banking.

How does something like this represent the idea that bitcoin stands for?

I understand the point of the blockchain not being on the phone, for storage and bandwith reasons.
The arguments i hear most are outdated i think.
-Most new smartphones have at least 16GB internal storage.
-You don't download the entire blockchain over the mobile network, use wifi for that and only mobile for transactions and updates.

And yea, i know your phone may have only 512mb of storage, but that doesn't matter for now since the masses of people ain't gonna use bitcoin for at least another 5 years, IF it ever gets off the ground in the first place.
By then, smartphones will have 1TB storage and at least a 10mbit mobile connection, so yea, we can keep it decentralized!

[edit]

Ok, this is what i see is a potential problem.
This bitcoinspinner company wants to make money.. but oops, the app is free. (ofcourse it, is, and always will be, you'll be paying with personal information from your phone)
So, they invent the system all over again, they will start to lend out non-existing bitcoins to users, at a nice rate.
Where do those bitcoins come from? Well, from the other users that have plenty balance, unless everybody wants to spend all the money they have at once, they will be doing fine, just like the banks!

The 'you own the keys' argument doesn't really hold up imo, after all, you 'own' your creditcard too, still the company manages it and in the end has ultimate control over it.

[BitcoinBug]

Don't like it, don't use it! You have other fully decentralized android clients...
For people like me though, light clients are the future!

[kwukduck]

Don't like it, don't use it! You have other fully decentralized android clients...
For people like me though, light clients are the future!

True ofcourse, i did test it, and it works fine, i can't complain about that.
I'm just pointing out some serious concerns i have

[Jan]

Since we're back at using centralized solutions, we might aswell drop bitcoin and go back to classical banking.

How does something like this represent the idea that bitcoin stands for?

I understand the point of the blockchain not being on the phone, for storage and bandwith reasons.
The arguments i hear most are outdated i think.
-Most new smartphones have at least 16GB internal storage.
-You don't download the entire blockchain over the mobile network, use wifi for that and only mobile for transactions and updates.

And yea, i know your phone may have only 512mb of storage, but that doesn't matter for now since the masses of people ain't gonna use bitcoin for at least another 5 years, IF it ever gets off the ground in the first place.
By then, smartphones will have 1TB storage and at least a 10mbit mobile connection, so yea, we can keep it decentralized!

Take a good look at the scalability section of the Bitcoin wiki, and lets assume that 5 years from now Bitcoin is broadly adopted. Blocks will be measured in the gigabytes. Let's see how your mobile thingy will cope with that.

[edit]
Ok, this is what i see is a potential problem.
This bitcoinspinner company wants to make money.. but oops, the app is free. (ofcourse it, is, and always will be, you'll be paying with personal information from your phone)
So, they invent the system all over again, they will start to lend out non-existing bitcoins to users, at a nice rate.
Where do those bitcoins come from? Well, from the other users that have plenty balance, unless everybody wants to spend all the money they have at once, they will be doing fine, just like the banks!

The 'you own the keys' argument doesn't really hold up imo, after all, you 'own' your creditcard too, still the company manages it and in the end has ultimate control over it.

For some reason it seems that you think that every company is evil. There is nothing I can do about that I guess. But there is at least one thing that you have misunderstood. Because the private keys never leave the app there is no way that the server can spend your coins or give some of your coins to other users. The 'you own your credit card' analogy you propose is ridiculous. If you don't trust the app that you download on the Android Market you can download the sources, inspect the code, even make your own fork, and roll your own.

Another thing... The only privileges that BitcoinSpinner requires are NetworkConnectivity and View Network State (you are notified about thins when you install the app). This means that it cannot loot your contacts or other personal information.

At the end BitcoinSpinner is not for everyone, and it is good that there are other options out there. BitcoinSpinner, like the Satoshi client itself, is a piece of beta software. Let's learn and improve...

[BTCurious]

The 'you own the keys' argument doesn't really hold up imo, after all, you 'own' your creditcard too, still the company manages it and in the end has ultimate control over it.

If you own the keys on your phone, then the server doesn't have them. Ergo, they can't do fractional reserve banking.

[Shawshank]

Around 10 days ago, I had a look at BitcoinSpinner working on the mobile phone of a work colleague. I really liked what I saw. He installed it in a few seconds and got his first funds from the Faucet just as quickly. I must say, I was pleasantly impressed. At the time, I could not understand how all the process was performed so swiftly, since I was expecting the whole block chain to download on the phone.

I don't know if future versions of Bitcoin clients will only download the strictly necessary transactions, or whether they will query peer nodes online for block chain information, or any other alternative. In any case, for the time being, a really clever and clean solution by BitcoinSpinner.

[elggawf]

The 'you own the keys' argument doesn't really hold up imo, after all, you 'own' your creditcard too, still the company manages it and in the end has ultimate control over it.

Come back with an argument as to why this app is broken when you understand how the private keys in Bitcoin work.

There is a certain issue with trusting the balances coming in (if for any reason the server providing the data is motivated to lie to you and tell you a fictitious transaction confirmed when it has not, there's no way for you to tell that happened without the blockchain), but beyond that there's very little harm that can be done with such a "centralized" solution.

Again, the great thing about Bitcoin is not that it has to be decentralized, but simply that it can be. You can be your own bank, your own currency exchanger, etc. Or not, if you simply don't give a shit about those things.

[Technomage]

A solution like this can still be very decentralized. It's possible to have a lot of BCCAPI servers, all over the world. And even if someone decided to ddos all of them, it's not a huge problem. The actual bitcoins are still safe because the user has the private key, no one else. That key can be added to a regular, totally decentralized client, and the coins are usable again.

But I don't really get the blockchain discussion, there are many solutions for scaling Bitcoin. The Schildbach client (which doesn't have a server-side) uses a blockchain file which is currently about 20 megabytes. With that technique the file is probably decent size even if Bitcoin gets wider adoption, scaled to the smartphones of that time, that is. But the thing is, BitcoinSpinner is still faster and more convenient even though the compressed blockchain format is only 20MB.

I think both methods can work side by side and it's not only the mobile world that has this problem. Desktop clients are JUST AS SLOW as the mobile clients that have a compressed blockchain format. It's the same. I see demand for this kind of setup in both desktop and mobile worlds.

[ThomasV]

A solution like this can still be very decentralized. It's possible to have a lot of BCCAPI servers, all over the world. And even if someone decided to ddos all of them, it's not a huge problem. The actual bitcoins are still safe because the user has the private key, no one else. That key can be added to a regular, totally decentralized client, and the coins are usable again.

there is a decentralized, open-source alternative to BCCAPI. it is called Electrum: http://ecdsa.org/electrum

[slush]

there is a decentralized, open-source alternative to BCCAPI. it is called Electrum: http://ecdsa.org/electrum

At this time there's not an android app for electrum backends, but friend of mine is working on it.

[Technomage]

At this time there's not an android app for electrum backends, but friend of mine is working on it.

Your friend might be on to something big. I'm looking forward to testing it. I think it's important that the server code is open source and anyone can run it. That will make it much more decentralized. Then we can have security, reliability and speed in one neat package. Hopefully a good UI as well

[BTCurious]

At this time there's not an android app for electrum backends, but friend of mine is working on it.

Nice! Remind him it should be just as simple as BitcoinSpinner

[Vandroiy]

The input bug is fixed! Yipee! I will now test it for a bit. If it works, I'll donate at least 10 BTC to API and Client each, and would have finally gotten rid of that ancient bounty.

True ofcourse, i did test it, and it works fine, i can't complain about that.
I'm just pointing out some serious concerns i have

Concerns that make no sense. Just check the sources and BlockExplorer if you want to be certain they do not cheat. Except if the Netherlands guys hacked your personal DNS server and simulate blockexplorer... ya right, of yourse.

The concept is secure. Feel free to check the implementation etc, indeed that can have backdoors like always, but the design sounds perfect.

[BitcoinSpinner]

I thought I might say hello now that I have watched your comments and listened to them.

First I would like to announce that version 0.3.0b is out with Transaction history.

Second I would like to thank all of you who have tested, commented and rated the app. If you keep using, I'll try to keep updating.

I'm glad that You like the app, but regarding the design of the UI, I'm an engineer, not a designer, so if someone would take the time to enhance the face of the app, don't hesitate to help!

[ffe]

Works great for me.

I love the fact I can back up the wallet once after I start the first time and it is always backed up. I assume my phone could be thrown into the ocean and all I have to do is buy a new phone, download the app, and restore from my original wallet-backup and all my coins would be there on the new phone. Wow.

[BitPay Business Solutions]

I will say that during our meetup last night in Orlando, BitcoinSpinner was the best mobile wallet.  

A new person hot girl showed up at the meeting (NOT a techie by any means), and within 1 minute she had the app on her phone, and I sent her $20 worth of bitcoins in exchange for $20 cash.  

The incoming deposit showed instantly on her phone as pending, and was credited in about 5 minutes.

She was able to pay her check at Whiskey Dicks using the app, and the speed at which she was able to scan and send was good.

More importantly, the speed on the back-end of BitcoinSpinner was most impressive.  Once the send was confirmed in the UI, the coins were actually sent on the bitcoin network and received by Bit-Pay in about 1 second.  This compares to a typical 3-5 second process time to do a withdrawal from the MtGox Mobile Wallet.

Keep up the good work, and whatever you do to the UI, don't delay the back end processing.  You have the best wallet on the market for that.

[cypherdoc]

I will say that during our meetup last night in Orlando, BitcoinSpinner was the best mobile wallet.  

A new person hot girl showed up at the meeting (NOT a techie by any means), and within 1 minute she had the app on her phone, and I sent her $20 worth of bitcoins in exchange for $20 cash.  

The incoming deposit showed instantly on her phone as pending, and was credited in about 5 minutes.

She was able to pay her check at Whiskey Dicks using the app, and the speed at which she was able to scan and send was good.

More importantly, the speed on the back-end of BitcoinSpinner was most impressive.  Once the send was confirmed in the UI, the coins were actually sent on the bitcoin network and received by Bit-Pay in about 1 second.  This compares to a typical 3-5 second process time to do a withdrawal from the MtGox Mobile Wallet.

Keep up the good work, and whatever you do to the UI, don't delay the back end processing.  You have the best wallet on the market for that.

LOL!  this is so hot on multiple levels!

[teflone]

I will say that during our meetup last night in Orlando, BitcoinSpinner was the best mobile wallet.  

A new person hot girl showed up at the meeting (NOT a techie by any means), and within 1 minute she had the app on her phone, and I sent her $20 worth of bitcoins in exchange for $20 cash.  

The incoming deposit showed instantly on her phone as pending, and was credited in about 5 minutes.

She was able to pay her check at Whiskey Dicks using the app, and the speed at which she was able to scan and send was good.

More importantly, the speed on the back-end of BitcoinSpinner was most impressive.  Once the send was confirmed in the UI, the coins were actually sent on the bitcoin network and received by Bit-Pay in about 1 second.  This compares to a typical 3-5 second process time to do a withdrawal from the MtGox Mobile Wallet.

Keep up the good work, and whatever you do to the UI, don't delay the back end processing.  You have the best wallet on the market for that.

Pics or it didnt happen!   

[Jan]

I will say that during our meetup last night in Orlando, BitcoinSpinner was the best mobile wallet.  

A new person hot girl showed up at the meeting (NOT a techie by any means), and within 1 minute she had the app on her phone, and I sent her $20 worth of bitcoins in exchange for $20 cash.  

The incoming deposit showed instantly on her phone as pending, and was credited in about 5 minutes.

She was able to pay her check at Whiskey Dicks using the app, and the speed at which she was able to scan and send was good.

More importantly, the speed on the back-end of BitcoinSpinner was most impressive.  Once the send was confirmed in the UI, the coins were actually sent on the bitcoin network and received by Bit-Pay in about 1 second.  This compares to a typical 3-5 second process time to do a withdrawal from the MtGox Mobile Wallet.

Keep up the good work, and whatever you do to the UI, don't delay the back end processing.  You have the best wallet on the market for that.

This gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.
During Christmas I have been working on improving BitcoinSpinner (Yes, I have joined the BitcoinSpinner dev team). In the upcoming release we will improve on the reliance on network connectivity. Right now you cannot start BitcoinSpine without internet connectivity or the server back-end being up.  This is really bad if I for some reason choose to discontinue the BCCAPI server, and you haven't done a backup of the private key. The next release will have a slick & swift asynchronous back-end, which allows you to see your balance and/or backup/restore/export your private key without a connection to the server. In my mind this is the final excuse for not using BitcoinSpinner as your day to day wallet.

Cheers & Merry Christmas
Jan