How can collapse of USD affect bitcoin?

[Dotto]

Hi all,

It seems collapse of USD in mathematically unavoidable, I wonder how could it affect bitcoin.

Guess there is going to be a massive dollar inflation wave, would this skyrocket the BTC value or would it collapse it too?

[1715641140]

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[arepo]

Hi all,

It seems collapse of USD in mathematically unavoidable, I wonder how could it affect bitcoin.

Guess there is going to be a massive dollar inflation wave, would this skyrocket the BTC value or would it collapse it too?

it would skyrocket the BTCUSD rate simply because the USD would rapidly lose purchasing power. but i don't think that's what you're asking.

would capital flood into BTC as a safe haven? or would the BTC price crash as well, as it is irrevocably tied to global financial health?

this has been an active debate lately. many on these forums believe that BTC is a good hedge against the global economy, but some posit that in the event of a real financial catastrophe like hyperinflation of the world's reserve currency, BTC would suffer. i am undecided.

--arepo

[Ibian]

Hyperinflation makes people use their paper money as wallpaper, kindling, toilet paper... why wouldn't bitcoin take over in such a scenario?

[master-P]

It could put a lot of exchanges out of business I guess. More people would be trading BTC for goods than for fiat maybe.

[Wilhelm]

Just like all crashes seen before. BTC and the world will take some time to break away from this bad fiat.
Maybe US citizens will flee towards BTC, gold and silver making the price go sky high due to scarcity.

[jeppe]

The USD value of BTC would go up as hell!! But if the euro would have the same value as now the euro/BTC would be the same, so the actual value of BTC would not go up.

[roslinpl]

IMO value of a dollar have nothing to do with Bitcoin price.

Those are totally different things.

[MatTheCat]

Hyperinflation makes people use their paper money as wallpaper, kindling, toilet paper... why wouldn't bitcoin take over in such a scenario?

Because Bitcoin isn't backed by anything other than it's rate of convertability into fiat currencies.

If I could reliably convert Bitcoin into X ounces of precious metal, X gallons of Oil or X units of electrical energy, then we might be talking. Even if some government that I needed to pay taxes to required payment in Bitcoin, then Bitcoin might have a case as a 'pretender to the throne'. But as things stand, Bitcoin is nothing. It is a means of quickly transferring wealth around that works to the extent of liquidity in the market. Because the liquidity is provided almost entirely by speculators, the rate of conversion is prone to being highly volatile, thus rendering Bitcoin totally inappropriate for being used as a reliable unit of exchange.

[Ibian]

Hyperinflation makes people use their paper money as wallpaper, kindling, toilet paper... why wouldn't bitcoin take over in such a scenario?

Because Bitcoin isn't backed by anything other than it's rate of convertability into fiat currencies.

If I could reliably convert Bitcoin into X ounces of precious metal, X gallons of Oil or X units of electrical energy, then we might be talking. Even if some government that I needed to pay taxes to required payment in Bitcoin, then Bitcoin might have a case as a 'pretender to the throne'. But as things stand, Bitcoin is nothing. It is a means of quickly transferring wealth around that works to the extent of liquidity in the market. Because the liquidity is provided almost entirely by speculators, the rate of conversion is prone to being highly volatile, thus rendering Bitcoin totally inappropriate for being used as a reliable unit of exchange.

We had this argument. Many, many times just in the few months I have been here. Go reread some of the old threads.

[pungopete468]

Hyperinflation makes people use their paper money as wallpaper, kindling, toilet paper... why wouldn't bitcoin take over in such a scenario?

Because Bitcoin isn't backed by anything other than it's rate of convertability into fiat currencies.

If I could reliably convert Bitcoin into X ounces of precious metal, X gallons of Oil or X units of electrical energy, then we might be talking. Even if some government that I needed to pay taxes to required payment in Bitcoin, then Bitcoin might have a case as a 'pretender to the throne'. But as things stand, Bitcoin is nothing. It is a means of quickly transferring wealth around that works to the extent of liquidity in the market. Because the liquidity is provided almost entirely by speculators, the rate of conversion is prone to being highly volatile, thus rendering Bitcoin totally inappropriate for being used as a reliable unit of exchange.

Bitcoin is like you said, an excellent platform to transfer wealth. Bitcoin being the vessel of transfer is unaffected by the collapse of one or more articles of value.

Bitcoin is used to transfer wealth because it's efficient. Bitcoin will remain efficient regardless of what type of transfer it facilitates...

However, the market has been manipulated by fiat currencies. After fiat collapses we will be at square 1 again, the market will assess a new value to everything; not just Bitcoin...

[MatTheCat]

We had this argument. Many, many times just in the few months I have been here. Go reread some of the old threads.

The proof will be in the pudding and we shall both witness it, most likely with very different positions in relation to Bitcoin when the crunch time comes.

Bitcoin is like you said, an excellent platform to transfer wealth. Bitcoin being the vessel of transfer is unaffected by the collapse of one or more articles of value.

Bitcoin is used to transfer wealth because it's efficient. Bitcoin will remain efficient regardless of what type of transfer it facilitates...

However, the market has been manipulated by fiat currencies. After fiat collapses we will be at square 1 again, the market will assess a new value to everything; not just Bitcoin...

Precisely. Bitcoin's main use is as a vessel of value transfer. The important thing however is not the vessel, but the cargo. Otherwise there are dozens of Shit-Coins that have copied Bitcoin's concept and improved upon it in various ways, not least of all making it more streamline. In short, if the vessel was all important, then there are better alternatives around than Bitcoin, but none of the Shit-coins are carrying the value (measured in USD) that Bitcoin is carrying. If the USD becomes worthless as in it dies a death and the world is left to look for a new means of exchange, it won't be looking towards Bitcoin as Bitcoin is just a means of wealth transfer. In times of crisis you might be tempted to swap goods of value for tins of beans, silver rounds, shotgun rounds, gasoline etc, but would you be prepared to accept a few lines of algorithmic code on a USB stick? Same principle applies on an international macro scale and I am referring to a USD extinction event here, not the isolated hyperinflation of the Outer Bulgaristani Shekkel which is exactly the sort of situation that could result in lots of wealth flowing into Bitcoin, thanks to Bitcoins easy interchangeability with the USD.

I see a digital currency on the horizon for humanity alright, but it won't be Bitcoin. It will be issued by the holders of real physical wealth, perhaps it will be Gold again, and each unit will be exchangeable for so many units in weight of the agreed upon commodity. Premined, and issued to holders of specific commodity or basket of commodity who in turn will issue it to those who offer themselves in servitude in exchange for the units of account. Every transaction recorded. Zero anonymity from controllers of the system.  As far fetched as this may sound, if the dollar dies, and it's death at some point is unavoidable then whole present day monetary paradigm is finished. The world will be in crisis and screaming and begging for some sort of stability offered by an asset backed currency. So yeah, I am a believer in both gold becoming money again at some point in the future and also in the future of crypto-currency, but I believe that the event will be accompanied by a move towards the enslavement of humanity, not liberation.

[TeeBone]

If fiat paper went away...

Better yet, if the institution of Govt went away (i.e. a voluntary world), bitcoin would go to zero. There would be no use for it, because digitized commodities would be allowed to flourish and used worldwide. Noone in their right mind would choose a digital 'currency' backed by nothing over digital gold, for example.

It's quite ironic that the entity (govt) btc purports to fight against, would render btc useless if it went away.

[Ibian]

The value of bitcoin lies in bitcoin. It is digital gold. When paper money first came about most people wouldn't touch the stuff. What value does ink on a piece of paper have? You would have to be insane to accept that instead of proper money.

[pungopete468]

Precisely. Bitcoin's main use is as a vessel of value transfer. The important thing however is not the vessel, but the cargo. Otherwise there are dozens of Shit-Coins that have copied Bitcoin's concept and improved upon it in various ways, not least of all making it more streamline. In short, if the vessel was all important, then there are better alternatives around than Bitcoin, but none of the Shit-coins are carrying the value (measured in USD) that Bitcoin is carrying. If the USD becomes worthless as in it dies a death and the world is left to look for a new means of exchange, it won't be looking towards Bitcoin as Bitcoin is just a means of wealth transfer. In times of crisis you might be tempted to swap goods of value for tins of beans, silver rounds, shotgun rounds, gasoline etc, but would you be prepared to accept a few lines of algorithmic code on a USB stick? Same principle applies on an international macro scale and I am referring to a USD extinction event here, not the isolated hyperinflation of the Outer Bulgaristani Shekkel which is exactly the sort of situation that could result in lots of wealth flowing into Bitcoin, thanks to Bitcoins easy interchangeability with the USD.

I think in a global fiat crisis you would be inclined to accept those lines of algorithmic code. You see; trade is an old game. International traders have always been threatened by piracy, border controls, seizure, etc... Bitcoin will be particularly useful in the post-economic collapse where the level of corruption is intensified.

I might not trade internationally, but if I know that Bitcoin is used for international trade; I'll be very inclined to accept it. Nobody will feel safe entrusting wealth to a bank in the near term and Bitcoin offers many of the benefits of a bank account.

The case of "why Bitcoin?" Bitcoin has the largest network, the most current investment, and the widest current adoption. I think it's safe to assume the current adopters are familiar with Bitcoins ability to escape capital controls, theft, counterfeit, and the list goes on.

I can see Bitcoin being very useful in the global trade arena post-fiat.

[MatTheCat]

The value of bitcoin lies in bitcoin. It is digital gold. When paper money first came about most people wouldn't touch the stuff. What value does ink on a piece of paper have? You would have to be insane to accept that instead of proper currency.

ZZZzzzz

THE LEGAL AUTHORITY OF THE GOVERNMENT AND IT'S ABILITY TO TAX IT'S POPULATION!

I think in a global fiat crisis you would be inclined to accept those lines of algorithmic code. You see; trade is an old game. International traders have always been threatened by piracy, border controls, seizure, etc... Bitcoin will be particularly useful in the post-economic collapse where the level of corruption is intensified.

I might not trade internationally, but if I know that Bitcoin is used for international trade; I'll be very inclined to accept it. Nobody will feel safe entrusting wealth to a bank in the near term and Bitcoin offers many of the benefits of a bank account.

The case of "why Bitcoin?" Bitcoin has the largest network, the most current investment, and the widest current adoption. I think it's safe to assume the current adopters are familiar with Bitcoins ability to escape capital controls, theft, counterfeit, and the list goes on.

I can see Bitcoin being very useful in the global trade arena post-fiat.

Indian tribes used to trade beads or feathers amongst each other and use those as money because the tribe chief would reliably accept them as a show of homage to his authority (taxes). But should that chief die and be replaced by some dude who don't give two craps about beads or feathers then guess what happens?

Bitcoin is the beads. The USD is the chief.

Just try using Bitcoin for any sort of trade if the chief has stopped accepting USD.

As you say, in such a scenario Bitcoin would have to be revalued but by then there will be far better alternatives to Bitcoin and no good reason not to use one of the improved alternatives.

[Ibian]

The value of bitcoin lies in bitcoin. It is digital gold. When paper money first came about most people wouldn't touch the stuff. What value does ink on a piece of paper have? You would have to be insane to accept that instead of proper currency.

ZZZzzzz

THE LEGAL AUTHORITY OF THE GOVERNMENT AND IT'S ABILITY TO TAX IT'S POPULATION!

z z z yourself. Money is whatever The Man says, yes. And value is whatever someone who will deal in it is. But as already noted, go read the old threads. Repetition is annoying.

[MatTheCat]

The value of bitcoin lies in bitcoin. It is digital gold. When paper money first came about most people wouldn't touch the stuff. What value does ink on a piece of paper have? You would have to be insane to accept that instead of proper currency.

ZZZzzzz

THE LEGAL AUTHORITY OF THE GOVERNMENT AND IT'S ABILITY TO TAX IT'S POPULATION!

z z z yourself. Money is whatever The Man says, yes. And value is whatever someone who will deal in it is. But as already noted, go read the old threads. Repetition is annoying.

Yeah ok. If The Man turns around and declares that Bitcoin is money and from now on, everyone should pay his dues to him in Bitcoin. Then and only then will Bitcoin become money.....

.....but why would The Man want to do a thing like that?

Just wait n see. Bitcoin's purpose will be to undermine and facilitate capital flight out of crisis hit economies as the US goes about strategically undermining any economy that threatens to be left standing longer than the USD. The survival of the USD will be pivotal to the survival of Bitcoin.

[TeeBone]

The value of bitcoin lies in bitcoin. It is digital gold. When paper money first came about most people wouldn't touch the stuff. What value does ink on a piece of paper have? You would have to be insane to accept that instead of proper money.

A gun to your head is the only reason why paper is used. Obviously in a VOLUNTARY world, nobody would use it. Likewise nobody would use bitcoin, because it has no intrinsic value. Commodities (oil, gold, etc) in digital form would take over completely. A few years back, E-Gold (digital gold) grew wildly popular, it had millions of users before Govt shut it down. Absent Govt, you would see BILLIONS of people using some form of E-Gold/E-Oil, etc.

Bitcoin requires the existance of the State for it to thrive.

[pungopete468]

Indian tribes used to trade beads or feathers amongst each other and use those as money because the tribe chief would reliably accept them as a show of homage to his authority (taxes). But should that chief die and be replaced by some dude who don't give two craps about beads or feathers then guess what happens?

Bitcoin is the beads. The USD is the chief.

Not exactly, the beads and feathers were replaced because they weren't useful in as many markets as the USD.

Well let's consider the alternatives... Centralized digital fiat currency won't exist at first. After an economic collapse; nobody will trust the same people who just ripped off the entire world. Banks will be shunned and the population will be fending for itself.

Gold and precious metals, bartering; commodities will come back into play in a big way. Now the biggest problem historically has been piracy of international trade. You can steal wealth from a trader because you know they have a bunch of it on-board the ship. You can raid the ship and physically steal wealth easily.

Bitcoin isn't susceptible in the same way. You can't carry it away.

The advantages of Bitcoin over fiat are amazing, but remember that fiat was also advantageous over gold. Therefore, the advantages of Bitcoin over gold are even more extreme. The issue has always been trust; financial institutions are the problem. Bitcoin will shine when fiat is gone.

[dead_bit]

I think some of you have a gross misunderstanding of things psychologically. The crash of the USD would not only kill bitcoin, since it's primarily converted into USD to begin with, it would kill virtually every other economy on the Earth. Most of you are overlooking the very obvious fact, the world is tied to the USD.

1. USD tanks... suddenly Americans have lost purchasing power. They can no longer buy goods/services that are mostly financed by other countries. Aid to third world nations stops. Suddenly 75% of coin mining also stops because Americans cant afford energy costs. People can't afford food...

2. Lack of American investing power and consuming causes major hits to BRICK nations. BRICK nations are already suffering in near recession economies and a sudden lack of USD influx causes further depression to economies. Third world nation economies also suffer due to a lack of USD propping. People can't afford food... well people who could afford food to begin with can't afford it.

Bitcoin itself is already hugely tied to the dollar and will be for the foreseeable future. Why is that? Because Bitcoin has no use outside of the novelty. Most just don't see, that it's purely a novelty. Even those who "accept" bitcoin through one of the exchanges/store sites... are really just accepting the USD. You just don't see the go between converting the currency into USD.

Bitcoin is tied to the dollar and will be until people realize the truth. Bitcoin has no value and no use. Once people understand how to break the chains, which is to ignore the dollar completely, then Bitcoin will have real value. Bitcoin is not a medium of exchange/store of value, it's an investment tool. Anyone who thinks differently isn't looking at things for what they are. Want it to be different, then make it different.

[dead_bit]

Indian tribes used to trade beads or feathers amongst each other and use those as money because the tribe chief would reliably accept them as a show of homage to his authority (taxes). But should that chief die and be replaced by some dude who don't give two craps about beads or feathers then guess what happens?

Bitcoin is the beads. The USD is the chief.

Not exactly, the beads and feathers were replaced because they weren't useful in as many markets as the USD.

Well let's consider the alternatives... Centralized digital fiat currency won't exist at first. After an economic collapse; nobody will trust the same people who just ripped off the entire world. Banks will be shunned and the population will be fending for itself.

Gold and precious metals, bartering; commodities will come back into play in a big way. Now the biggest problem historically has been piracy of international trade. You can steal wealth from a trader because you know they have a bunch of it on-board the ship. You can raid the ship and physically steal wealth easily.

Bitcoin isn't susceptible in the same way. You can't carry it away.

The advantages of Bitcoin over fiat are amazing, but remember that fiat was also advantageous over gold. Therefore, the advantages of Bitcoin over gold are even more extreme. The issue has always been trust; financial institutions are the problem. Bitcoin will shine when fiat is gone.

beads and feathers were replaced so that everyone could have a fair shake in the market... not everyone was a hunter so not everyone could get the goods.

What are these amazing advantages you speak of?

[pungopete468]

I think some of you have a gross misunderstanding of things psychologically. The crash of the USD would not only kill bitcoin, since it's primarily converted into USD to begin with, it would kill virtually every other economy on the Earth. Most of you are overlooking the very obvious fact, the world is tied to the USD.

1. USD tanks... suddenly Americans have lost purchasing power. They can no longer buy goods/services that are mostly financed by other countries. Aid to third world nations stops. Suddenly 75% of coin mining also stops because Americans cant afford energy costs. People can't afford food...

2. Lack of American investing power and consuming causes major hits to BRICK nations. BRICK nations are already suffering in near recession economies and a sudden lack of USD influx causes further depression to economies. Third world nation economies also suffer due to a lack of USD propping. People can't afford food... well people who could afford food to begin with can't afford it.

Bitcoin itself is already hugely tied to the dollar and will be for the foreseeable future. Why is that? Because Bitcoin has no use outside of the novelty. Most just don't see, that it's purely a novelty. Even those who "accept" bitcoin through one of the exchanges/store sites... are really just accepting the USD. You just don't see the go between converting the currency into USD.

Bitcoin is tied to the dollar and will be until people realize the truth. Bitcoin has no value and no use. Once people understand how to break the chains, which is to ignore the dollar completely, then Bitcoin will have real value. Bitcoin is not a medium of exchange/store of value, it's an investment tool. Anyone who thinks differently isn't looking at things for what they are. Want it to be different, then make it different.

The world won't stop when the USD collapses. The medium of transfer will only change form. The market is artificially manipulated right now. If the USD fails the market will assess new values for everything.

At the end of the day; the world is run by people, not dollars. Should the dollar collapse the people will still remain. Bitcoin will be valued by utility. In a world where you need to carry 5lbs of coinage to buy groceries Bitcoin will have plenty of advantages...

I think if you look at a broader picture and reference the world before the dollar you will have a better understanding of how the world will react should the dollar collapse.

[dead_bit]

I think some of you have a gross misunderstanding of things psychologically. The crash of the USD would not only kill bitcoin, since it's primarily converted into USD to begin with, it would kill virtually every other economy on the Earth. Most of you are overlooking the very obvious fact, the world is tied to the USD.

1. USD tanks... suddenly Americans have lost purchasing power. They can no longer buy goods/services that are mostly financed by other countries. Aid to third world nations stops. Suddenly 75% of coin mining also stops because Americans cant afford energy costs. People can't afford food...

2. Lack of American investing power and consuming causes major hits to BRICK nations. BRICK nations are already suffering in near recession economies and a sudden lack of USD influx causes further depression to economies. Third world nation economies also suffer due to a lack of USD propping. People can't afford food... well people who could afford food to begin with can't afford it.

Bitcoin itself is already hugely tied to the dollar and will be for the foreseeable future. Why is that? Because Bitcoin has no use outside of the novelty. Most just don't see, that it's purely a novelty. Even those who "accept" bitcoin through one of the exchanges/store sites... are really just accepting the USD. You just don't see the go between converting the currency into USD.

Bitcoin is tied to the dollar and will be until people realize the truth. Bitcoin has no value and no use. Once people understand how to break the chains, which is to ignore the dollar completely, then Bitcoin will have real value. Bitcoin is not a medium of exchange/store of value, it's an investment tool. Anyone who thinks differently isn't looking at things for what they are. Want it to be different, then make it different.

The world won't stop when the USD collapses. The medium of transfer will only change form. The market is artificially manipulated right now. If the USD fails the market will assess new values for everything.

At the end of the day; the world is run by people, not dollars. Should the dollar collapse the people will still remain. Bitcoin will be valued by utility. In a world where you need to carry 5lbs of coinage to buy groceries Bitcoin will have plenty of advantages...

I think if you look at a broader picture and reference the world before the dollar you will have a better understanding of how the world will react should the dollar collapse.

I must respectfully disagree. Look at how much the world already reacted to a decline in the USD. We have the very recent 08-09 price movement of the USD to assess what will happen in the world. Besides, it's not simply the "USD" that you must worry about, but the fact that most of the worlds consumption occurs in America. You're missing the point entirely. A collapse of the USD, while not world stopping, will not help bitcoin. It would be like asking the heroin addict to stop cold turkey, it doesn't happen. You would have to gradually introduce something new to the system. Would bitcoin be that new substance? Only if stops being an investment tool.

[MatTheCat]

I think some of you have a gross misunderstanding of things psychologically. The crash of the USD would not only kill bitcoin, since it's primarily converted into USD to begin with, it would kill virtually every other economy on the Earth. Most of you are overlooking the very obvious fact, the world is tied to the USD.

1. USD tanks... suddenly Americans have lost purchasing power. They can no longer buy goods/services that are mostly financed by other countries. Aid to third world nations stops. Suddenly 75% of coin mining also stops because Americans cant afford energy costs. People can't afford food...

2. Lack of American investing power and consuming causes major hits to BRICK nations. BRICK nations are already suffering in near recession economies and a sudden lack of USD influx causes further depression to economies. Third world nation economies also suffer due to a lack of USD propping. People can't afford food... well people who could afford food to begin with can't afford it.

Bitcoin itself is already hugely tied to the dollar and will be for the foreseeable future. Why is that? Because Bitcoin has no use outside of the novelty. Most just don't see, that it's purely a novelty. Even those who "accept" bitcoin through one of the exchanges/store sites... are really just accepting the USD. You just don't see the go between converting the currency into USD.

Bitcoin is tied to the dollar and will be until people realize the truth. Bitcoin has no value and no use. Once people understand how to break the chains, which is to ignore the dollar completely, then Bitcoin will have real value. Bitcoin is not a medium of exchange/store of value, it's an investment tool. Anyone who thinks differently isn't looking at things for what they are. Want it to be different, then make it different.

Agreed.

At one point in history, nobody would accept a national currency that wasn't backed by gold as they required more than paper promises of a government that may be overthrown, go bankrupt etc etc. Post WW2, it turned out that the US had all the gold. So then we had the Bretton Woods system, whereby the dollar was treated as gold, but without the inconvenience and the expense of having to ship around precious metal between central bank vaults. Then in the 70's the US suspended and then abolished the link between the US dollar and gold. The decade that followed seen a brutal economic recession and a massive bull market in gold, but by the 80's the world found itself still accepting the dollar which by then was linked to the US's military might and their control of global oil markets. As most here know, this is the paradigm in which we are still living although a paradigm that is becoming increasingly shaky thanks in no small part to the financial system being allowed to hi-jack the system and multiply credit (USD and other currencies backed by USD) to orders of several magnitude. Bitcoin is merely a means of speculating and digitally transferring units of USD around the world.

Money has to be either:

• Something of inherent and reliable value. (gold, silver, cigarettes, bullets)
• A unit of account backed by the authority of an authority with tax raising powers.

Bitcoin is neither of those. Bitcoin is merely a vessel or potential vessel of any given unit of exchange which enough people are prepared to reliably swap for the Bitcoin. It is not about the Bitcoin, it is about what the Bitcoin can be swapped over for.

[NeedForBitcoin]

People wouldn't be able to exchange USD for BTC, so bad.

[dead_bit]

I think some of you have a gross misunderstanding of things psychologically. The crash of the USD would not only kill bitcoin, since it's primarily converted into USD to begin with, it would kill virtually every other economy on the Earth. Most of you are overlooking the very obvious fact, the world is tied to the USD.

1. USD tanks... suddenly Americans have lost purchasing power. They can no longer buy goods/services that are mostly financed by other countries. Aid to third world nations stops. Suddenly 75% of coin mining also stops because Americans cant afford energy costs. People can't afford food...

2. Lack of American investing power and consuming causes major hits to BRICK nations. BRICK nations are already suffering in near recession economies and a sudden lack of USD influx causes further depression to economies. Third world nation economies also suffer due to a lack of USD propping. People can't afford food... well people who could afford food to begin with can't afford it.

Bitcoin itself is already hugely tied to the dollar and will be for the foreseeable future. Why is that? Because Bitcoin has no use outside of the novelty. Most just don't see, that it's purely a novelty. Even those who "accept" bitcoin through one of the exchanges/store sites... are really just accepting the USD. You just don't see the go between converting the currency into USD.

Bitcoin is tied to the dollar and will be until people realize the truth. Bitcoin has no value and no use. Once people understand how to break the chains, which is to ignore the dollar completely, then Bitcoin will have real value. Bitcoin is not a medium of exchange/store of value, it's an investment tool. Anyone who thinks differently isn't looking at things for what they are. Want it to be different, then make it different.

Agreed.

At one point in history, nobody would accept a national currency that wasn't backed by gold as they required more than paper promises of a government that may be overthrown, go bankrupt etc etc. Post WW2, it turned out that the US had all the gold. So then we had the Bretton Woods system, whereby the dollar was treated as gold, but without the inconvenience and the expense of having to ship around precious metal between central bank vaults. Then in the 70's the US suspended and then abolished the link between the US dollar and gold. The decade that followed seen a brutal economic recession and a massive bull market in gold, but by the 80's the world found itself still accepting the dollar which by then was linked to the US's military might and their control of global oil markets. As most here know, this is the paradigm in which we are still living although a paradigm that is becoming increasingly shaky. Bitcoin is merely a means of speculating and digitally transferring units of USD around the world.

Money has to be either:

• Something of inherent and reliable value. (gold, silver, cigarettes, bullets)
• A unit of account backed by the authority of an authority with tax raising powers.

Bitcoin is neither of those. Bitcoin is merely a vessel or potential vessel of any given unit of exchange which enough people are prepared to reliably swap for the Bitcoin. It is not about the Bitcoin, it is about what the Bitcoin can be swapped over for.

Eloquently spoken! And totally correct!

People wouldn't be able to exchange USD for BTC, so bad.

In a true Dollar collapse most won't even have internet so BTC will be totally useless.

[pungopete468]

beads and feathers were replaced so that everyone could have a fair shake in the market... not everyone was a hunter so not everyone could get the goods.

What are these amazing advantages you speak of?

 Over FIAT
=============

 - No capital control
 - No third party required for international or domestic transfers
 - Trustless system
 - Not inherently fractional
 - Favors a commodity rather than an IOU
 - Not nearly as susceptible to theft compared with carrying cash

 Over Gold/Commodity Backed
=============

 - Gold is cumbersome
 - Gold notes are fractional
 - Gold notes require trust
 - Gold is highly susceptible to theft
 - The true value of gold will be remarkably close to what it was pre-fiat (very cumbersome to carry)
 - Coinage is property of the issuing government and can be seized easily as history has shown
 - Subject to capital controls, tariffs, tolls, or any other inspection that reveals how much you are carrying
 - Regularly debased as opposed to a tax increase (it's shady to debase currency rather than increase tax but serves the same purpose)
 - The list goes on and on

[dead_bit]

beads and feathers were replaced so that everyone could have a fair shake in the market... not everyone was a hunter so not everyone could get the goods.

What are these amazing advantages you speak of?

 Over FIAT
=============

 - No capital control
 - No third party required for international or domestic transfers
 - Trustless system
 - Not inherently fractional
 - Favors a commodity rather than an IOU
 - Not nearly as susceptible to theft compared with carrying cash

 Over Gold/Commodity Backed
=============

 - Gold is cumbersome
 - Gold notes are fractional
 - Gold notes require trust
 - Gold is highly susceptible to theft
 - The true value of gold will be remarkably close to what it was pre-fiat (very cumbersome to carry)
 - Coinage is property of the issuing government and can be seized easily as history has shown
 - Subject to capital controls, tariffs, tolls, or any other inspection that reveals how much you are carrying
 - Regularly debased as opposed to a tax increase (it's shady to debase currency rather than increase tax but serves the same purpose)
 - The list goes on and on

1. So BTC value isn't currently influenced by speculation?
2. see point 1
3. Trustless? Define trustless because that statement means nothing
4. I agree there but the dollar wasn't always fractional either and it was that very function which killed it
5. what commodity? it isn't tied to anything, unless we have gold bitcoins now
6. ok, because we don't see these exchanges getting ripped off for however many btc

as far as gold goes well there are obvious benefits but I'll dispel it all in one simple statement.

In the event of a major economic collapse you all have the assumption you will be able to afford the internet and power. I'm doubting that anyone could in the event of a collapse. Once those two factors are gone, BTC dies a quick death.

[TeeBone]

I think some of you have a gross misunderstanding of things psychologically. The crash of the USD would not only kill bitcoin, since it's primarily converted into USD to begin with, it would kill virtually every other economy on the Earth. Most of you are overlooking the very obvious fact, the world is tied to the USD.

1. USD tanks... suddenly Americans have lost purchasing power. They can no longer buy goods/services that are mostly financed by other countries. Aid to third world nations stops. Suddenly 75% of coin mining also stops because Americans cant afford energy costs. People can't afford food...

2. Lack of American investing power and consuming causes major hits to BRICK nations. BRICK nations are already suffering in near recession economies and a sudden lack of USD influx causes further depression to economies. Third world nation economies also suffer due to a lack of USD propping. People can't afford food... well people who could afford food to begin with can't afford it.

Bitcoin itself is already hugely tied to the dollar and will be for the foreseeable future. Why is that? Because Bitcoin has no use outside of the novelty. Most just don't see, that it's purely a novelty. Even those who "accept" bitcoin through one of the exchanges/store sites... are really just accepting the USD. You just don't see the go between converting the currency into USD.

Bitcoin is tied to the dollar and will be until people realize the truth. Bitcoin has no value and no use. Once people understand how to break the chains, which is to ignore the dollar completely, then Bitcoin will have real value. Bitcoin is not a medium of exchange/store of value, it's an investment tool. Anyone who thinks differently isn't looking at things for what they are. Want it to be different, then make it different.

Agreed.

At one point in history, nobody would accept a national currency that wasn't backed by gold as they required more than paper promises of a government that may be overthrown, go bankrupt etc etc. Post WW2, it turned out that the US had all the gold. So then we had the Bretton Woods system, whereby the dollar was treated as gold, but without the inconvenience and the expense of having to ship around precious metal between central bank vaults. Then in the 70's the US suspended and then abolished the link between the US dollar and gold. The decade that followed seen a brutal economic recession and a massive bull market in gold, but by the 80's the world found itself still accepting the dollar which by then was linked to the US's military might and their control of global oil markets. As most here know, this is the paradigm in which we are still living although a paradigm that is becoming increasingly shaky thanks in no small part to the financial system being allowed to hi-jack the system and multiply credit (USD and other currencies backed by USD) to orders of several magnitude. Bitcoin is merely a means of speculating and digitally transferring units of USD around the world.

Money has to be either:

• Something of inherent and reliable value. (gold, silver, cigarettes, bullets)
• A unit of account backed by the authority of an authority with tax raising powers.

Bitcoin is neither of those. Bitcoin is merely a vessel or potential vessel of any given unit of exchange which enough people are prepared to reliably swap for the Bitcoin. It is not about the Bitcoin, it is about what the Bitcoin can be swapped over for.

All of your posts, whether economic or world related, are the shizznit. Really though, i for one am glad you're around here. You give some food for thought to the kool-aid heads.

[Ibian]

Bitcoin requires the existance of the State for it to thrive.

It specifically does not require that. Part of the design.

[pungopete468]

1. So BTC value isn't currently influenced by speculation?
2. see point 1
3. Trustless? Define trustless because that statement means nothing
4. I agree there but the dollar wasn't always fractional either and it was that very function which killed it
5. what commodity? it isn't tied to anything, unless we have gold bitcoins now
6. ok, because we don't see these exchanges getting ripped off for however many btc

as far as gold goes well there are obvious benefits but I'll dispel it all in one simple statement.

In the event of a major economic collapse you all have the assumption you will be able to afford the internet and power. I'm doubting that anyone could in the event of a collapse. Once those two factors are gone, BTC dies a quick death.

1. I'm asserting that everything on the market today; goods, services, gold, and Bitcoin included are all suffering from the effect of our credit based system. The market is not an accurate representation today of what it should be in reality.
3. Trustless means that you don't need to trust a third party to facilitate your transaction. You don't need to trust the authenticity of the issuer because Bitcoin is a protocol; not a central third party.
4. The dollar must be fractional to facilitate quick or digital transfers; unlike Bitcoin where transfers do not create a fractional system.
5. Bitcoins are tied to every commodity in the same way that every other commodity is tied to one-another. The value of Bitcoin is a factor of trading for goods, services, or investments/commodities.
6. The exchanges are required to trade for fiat. The exchanges aren't a representation of the security of Bitcoin. The exchange servers have always been the vulnerable point.

After fiat collapses the market will correct itself. Anybody who can afford internet now will likely be able to afford the internet after a collapse. The infrastructure already exists, the price will adapt.

[dead_bit]

1. So BTC value isn't currently influenced by speculation?
2. see point 1
3. Trustless? Define trustless because that statement means nothing
4. I agree there but the dollar wasn't always fractional either and it was that very function which killed it
5. what commodity? it isn't tied to anything, unless we have gold bitcoins now
6. ok, because we don't see these exchanges getting ripped off for however many btc

as far as gold goes well there are obvious benefits but I'll dispel it all in one simple statement.

In the event of a major economic collapse you all have the assumption you will be able to afford the internet and power. I'm doubting that anyone could in the event of a collapse. Once those two factors are gone, BTC dies a quick death.

1. I'm asserting that everything on the market today; goods, services, gold, and Bitcoin included are all suffering from the effect of our credit based system. The market is not an accurate representation today of what it should be in reality.
3. Trustless means that you don't need to trust a third party to facilitate your transaction. You don't need to trust the authenticity of the issuer because Bitcoin is a protocol; not a central third party.
4. The dollar must be fractional to facilitate quick or digital transfers; unlike Bitcoin where transfers do not create a fractional system.
5. Bitcoins are tied to every commodity in the same way that every other commodity is tied to one-another. The value of Bitcoin is a factor of trading for goods, services, or investments/commodities.
6. The exchanges are required to trade for fiat. The exchanges aren't a representation of the security of Bitcoin. The exchange servers have always been the vulnerable point.

After fiat collapses the market will correct itself. Anybody who can afford internet now will likely be able to afford the internet after a collapse. The infrastructure already exists, the price will adapt.

1. I can agree with point 1 in the sense that the market is not an accurate reflection of value.

2. This does nothing to affect the value of bitcoin. BTC is just as prone to corruption, theft, and lying as any other investment tool.

3. The term fractional has absolutely nothing to do with what you're talking about. The dollar is fractional to cover the sheer cost of what it is asked to do. It was made into a fractional reserve currency because it could not expand the money supply in a way that was sufficient to expand the economy. It was finite and so only so much of it could be used.

4. Bitcoin isn't used to trade for anything so your statement is pointless. Please show me where you can buy something for bitcoin.

5. The exchange servers will always be necessary because no one will ever accept bitcoin.

How will all this infrastructure be maintained? How will people be paid for the services they provide to maintain this infrastructure? Some enterprising individual might come up with some great answers but I have yet to see those answers get pushed forward. I have some answers but I'm banking on fiat not collapsing for a simple reason. All the guns say it won't. There are more guns then you could possibly imagine and if the guns say don't accept bitcoin everyone will fall into line. This is the world we live in, it's much more horrible and disingenuous then 1984. Hence why I make my "psychological" reference. All money is simply a psychological tool.

[Ibian]

People wouldn't be able to exchange USD for BTC, so bad.

Ill trade you a quarter bitcoin for that nice boat of yours.

See how easy that was? No dollar or banker needed.

[dead_bit]

People wouldn't be able to exchange USD for BTC, so bad.

Ill trade you a quarter bitcoin for that nice boat of yours.

See how easy that was? No dollar or banker needed.

What if he doesn't want btc for his boat? That's the inherent problem here. BTC isn't accepted in the mainstream world so that guy would be an idiot to take your BTC. Unless he saw an opportunity to exchange the BTC for USD. Still haven't changed anything because in the end it's still about the dollar.

[Ibian]

People wouldn't be able to exchange USD for BTC, so bad.

Ill trade you a quarter bitcoin for that nice boat of yours.

See how easy that was? No dollar or banker needed.

What if he doesn't want btc for his boat? That's the inherent problem here. BTC isn't accepted in the mainstream world so that guy would be an idiot to take your BTC. Unless he saw an opportunity to exchange the BTC for USD. Still haven't changed anything because in the end it's still about the dollar.

This is all assuming bitcoin becomes a mainstream currency. I know, you wouldn't bet a satoshi on that, but a lot of us are banking on it.

For that matter, what if he doesn't want dollar? He won't, cause it will have collapsed in the scenario in question.

Barter is inefficient. A new form of money will be created when the old order dies. Nothing to worry about, except for fiat bagholders.

[pungopete468]

1. I can agree with point 1 in the sense that the market is not an accurate reflection of value.

2. This does nothing to affect the value of bitcoin. BTC is just as prone to corruption, theft, and lying as any other investment tool.

3. The term fractional has absolutely nothing to do with what you're talking about. The dollar is fractional to cover the sheer cost of what it is asked to do. It was made into a fractional reserve currency because it could not expand the money supply in a way that was sufficient to expand the economy. It was finite and so only so much of it could be used.

4. Bitcoin isn't used to trade for anything so your statement is pointless. Please show me where you can buy something for bitcoin.

5. The exchange servers will always be necessary because no one will ever accept bitcoin.

How will all this infrastructure be maintained? How will people be paid for the services they provide to maintain this infrastructure? Some enterprising individual might come up with some great answers but I have yet to see those answers get pushed forward. I have some answers but I'm banking on fiat not collapsing for a simple reason. All the guns say it won't. There are more guns then you could possibly imagine and if the guns say don't accept bitcoin everyone will fall into line. This is the world we live in, it's much more horrible and disingenuous then 1984. Hence why I make my "psychological" reference. All money is simply a psychological tool.

 - The value of Bitcoin today is not the same as the value of Bitcoin post-collapse. The trust issue isn't big - yet. Comparing Bitcoin in a world where *reliable* money is all tangible; Bitcoin has a distinct advantage because a burglar can't just walk away with it while you're away. It's WAY easier to break into somebodies house and rob the cash under the mattress than to brute force an encryption key.

 - In a non-fractional banking system there will be no such thing as an online purchase. If you can't be there in person to tender the payment then you are operating in a fractional system. I'm referring to the movement of money and the availability at any given point. Money in transit isn't money in hand.

 - Bitcoin is used to trade every day; I don't know where you get that idea... People get paid in Bitcoin for goods and services every day; not all of them are converted to fiat.

 - The exchange servers won't always be necessary. I could send a Bitcoin payment right now and it will never pass through an exchange server. Plenty of people accept Bitcoin already. I disagree when you say, "no one will ever accept bitcoin."

The answers you haven't seen get pushed forward haven't needed to be pushed forward yet. The maintenance is a job, the customers pay in some medium for the service, the company uses part of the proceeds from providing the service to pay for the maintenance. The dollar isn't important here, it's only a vessel for converting labor into food (or whatever else). Bitcoin is a more efficient vessel than the dollar.

All the guns in the world can't stop fiat from collapsing. Actually I think they are pushing for a collapse in hopes that the masses will accept the "necessity" of a power shift into an outright Authoritarian "World Government".

[dead_bit]

- The value of Bitcoin today is not the same as the value of Bitcoin post-collapse. The trust issue isn't big - yet. Comparing Bitcoin in a world where *reliable* money is all tangible; Bitcoin has a distinct advantage because a burglar can't just walk away with it while you're away. It's WAY easier to break into somebodies house and rob the cash under the mattress than to brute force an encryption key.

 - In a non-fractional banking system there will be no such thing as an online purchase. If you can't be there in person to tender the payment then you are operating in a fractional system. I'm referring to the movement of money and the availability at any given point. Money in transit isn't money in hand.

 - Bitcoin is used to trade every day; I don't know where you get that idea... People get paid in Bitcoin for goods and services every day; not all of them are converted to fiat.

 - The exchange servers won't always be necessary. I could send a Bitcoin payment right now and it will never pass through an exchange server. Plenty of people accept Bitcoin already. I disagree when you say, "no one will ever accept bitcoin."

The answers you haven't seen get pushed forward haven't needed to be pushed forward yet. The maintenance is a job, the customers pay in some medium for the service, the company uses part of the proceeds from providing the service to pay for the maintenance. The dollar isn't important here, it's only a vessel for converting labor into food (or whatever else). Bitcoin is a more efficient vessel than the dollar.

All the guns in the world can't stop fiat from collapsing. Actually I think they are pushing for a collapse in hopes that the masses will accept the "necessity" of a power shift into an outright Authoritarian "World Government".

- I think in a post collapse world trust will be the issue that crushes bitcoin. No one will want something they can't physically control.

- Once again, you are misunderstanding what fractional systems are, so I will leave it be.

- 99% of all trades end up with USD as the end result. Just because you bought something doesn't mean it wasn't dumped into dollars. If things are priced in dollars, and you pay in bitcoins, it still ends up in dollars. You not seeing the exchange doesn't make it not real.

- That is a simple miscommunication. I mean in a more broad way, not just the "exchanges" (i.e. cryptsy, etc.) But to go further, what stores will allow me to use my bitcoin wallet address to pay for something? Where can I go down the street to pay with bitcoins? The simple answer is nowhere. Why? It would require a massive infrastructure change and we're already talking post collapse so where will the capital come from to make this possible?

All the guns in the world have already stopped the collapse. You're allowing wishful thinking to cloud good judgement. What about our world is sound? What about our world makes sense? The fact that we need money at all is a fallacy in itself! But to be truthful, the world trusts dollars because America can land a military anywhere on the planet within 18 hours and crush the opposition.

[Ibian]

- That is a simple miscommunication. I mean in a more broad way, not just the "exchanges" (i.e. cryptsy, etc.) But to go further, what stores will allow me to use my bitcoin wallet address to pay for something? Where can I go down the street to pay with bitcoins? The simple answer is nowhere. Why? It would require a massive infrastructure change and we're already talking post collapse so where will the capital come from to make this possible?

Not touching the rest, but this is at least mildly interesting. The answer is "Berlin" and "the infrastructure is already in place". All a store needs to accept payment in bitcoin is a QR code and a computer with a wallet to confirm payment. Automatic conversion to fiat optional. The infrastructure, such as it is, has been in place for years. And it doesn't break down like the elaborate and expensive systems we currently use do, and requires nobodys approval. It's also free.

You have a lot of reading to do. I would suggest seeing to that before you continue arguing about things you clearly have little clue about.

[dead_bit]

- That is a simple miscommunication. I mean in a more broad way, not just the "exchanges" (i.e. cryptsy, etc.) But to go further, what stores will allow me to use my bitcoin wallet address to pay for something? Where can I go down the street to pay with bitcoins? The simple answer is nowhere. Why? It would require a massive infrastructure change and we're already talking post collapse so where will the capital come from to make this possible?

Not touching the rest, but this is at least mildly interesting. The answer is "Berlin" and "the infrastructure is already in place". All a store needs to accept payment in bitcoin is a QR code and a computer with a wallet to confirm payment. Automatic conversion to fiat optional. The infrastructure, such as it is, has been in place for years. And it doesn't break down like the elaborate and expensive systems we currently use do, and requires nobodys approval. It's also free.

You have a lot of reading to do. I would suggest seeing to that before you continue arguing about things you clearly have little clue about.

The capital would come from Berlin?

I have a lot of reading to do? As you tapdance around the plain truth... that no store in my immediate vicinity will accept my bitcoin. You sir, need to get out more often. (I know of no store that has QR scanners anywhere for at least 75 miles and I live in a decently populated area and the one store that does sells nothing that I would want or need as evidenced by the fact that it does little business in a decently sized commercial district)

Automatic conversion isn't optional... so that's not of any concern since no government accepts bitcoin for anything that I'm aware of.

If Bitcoin were to be "used by government agencies for the express purpose of paying ANYTHING AT ALL" it would be immediately subverted to all the same taxes and regulations that the dollar is currently held to. Do you think the government would simply go away because the dollar collapsed?

[pungopete468]

- I think in a post collapse world trust will be the issue that crushes bitcoin. No one will want something they can't physically control.

- Once again, you are misunderstanding what fractional systems are, so I will leave it be.

- 99% of all trades end up with USD as the end result. Just because you bought something doesn't mean it wasn't dumped into dollars. If things are priced in dollars, and you pay in bitcoins, it still ends up in dollars. You not seeing the exchange doesn't make it not real.

- That is a simple miscommunication. I mean in a more broad way, not just the "exchanges" (i.e. cryptsy, etc.) But to go further, what stores will allow me to use my bitcoin wallet address to pay for something? Where can I go down the street to pay with bitcoins? The simple answer is nowhere. Why? It would require a massive infrastructure change and we're already talking post collapse so where will the capital come from to make this possible?

All the guns in the world have already stopped the collapse. You're allowing wishful thinking to cloud good judgement. What about our world is sound? What about our world makes sense? The fact that we need money at all is a fallacy in itself! But to be truthful, the world trusts dollars because America can land a military anywhere on the planet within 18 hours and crush the opposition.

It's a pleasure debating our opposing opinions.

 - Bitcoin isn't a system built on trust. It's just math... There is no possibility of a "Bitcoin run" or "Bitcoin went bankrupt".

 - I know what fractional reserve systems are. Rather than attacking the entire system I'm focusing on a single aspect. When I consider a gold/resource based commodity as "fractional reserve" I'm telling you that people don't want to carry a coin purse around. The resource is deposited into a treasury and a note is issued to guarantee availability. You can only redeem these notes at the local treasury where the resource was deposited... Why would I accept a note to a local treasury in a different state? The only way to eliminate the "fractional reserve" aspect is to do away with paper notes. Bitcoin doesn't suffer the same issue...

 - The change will come either slowly by gradual innovation (before the collapse) or quickly from necessity. If Bitcoin is used to facilitate international trade then the incentive will be there. People don't always get paid to change the system. Sometimes people are forced to adapt out of necessity.

The guns haven't stopped anything, they stalled it. I think money is necessary; just think about it. How else could a dentist and a car salesman make a deal when the salesman has good teeth and the dentist needs a car?

The world doesn't trust dollars, the world trusted gold. The USA fleeced the world without the consent of the world. It's not going to last...

[dead_bit]

It's a pleasure debating our opposing opinions.

 - Bitcoin isn't a system built on trust. It's just math... There is no possibility of a "Bitcoin run" or "Bitcoin went bankrupt".

 - I know what fractional reserve systems are. Rather than attacking the entire system I'm focusing on a single aspect. When I consider a gold/resource based commodity as "fractional reserve" I'm telling you that people don't want to carry a coin purse around. The resource is deposited into a treasury and a note is issued to guarantee availability. You can only redeem these notes at the local treasury where the resource was deposited... Why would I accept a note to a local treasury in a different state? The only way to eliminate the "fractional reserve" aspect is to do away with paper notes. Bitcoin doesn't suffer the same issue...

 - The change will come either slowly by gradual innovation (before the collapse) or quickly from necessity. If Bitcoin is used to facilitate international trade then the incentive will be there. People don't always get paid to change the system. Sometimes people are forced to adapt out of necessity.

The guns haven't stopped anything, they stalled it. I think money is necessary; just think about it. How else could a dentist and a car salesman make a deal when the salesman has good teeth and the dentist needs a car?

The world doesn't trust dollars, the world trusted gold. The USA fleeced the world without the consent of the world. It's not going to last...

- I think Bitcoin is just as based on trust as any other currency. Bitcoin is a change of opinion away from being valueless, just like everything else.

- Under this premise Bitcoin is no different than dollars. Except that it cannot be created out of thin air, which it essentially is, except instead of a physical object you have a string of data and that is all. I have the same thing now, my dollars are strings of data on my debit card.

- I just don't see why people would gravitate to Bitcoin, it holds no advantage to any other already existing currency.

I would tend to agree, the world doesn't trust dollars, but now we're beginning to veer into a "world without America" scenario and that is a very different discussion from "the world without the dollar". I would also agree that the "guns" are more than likely pushing the world into an authoritarian government. I think the next major collapse will be the end of the free thinking groups/ideals like the bitcoin community. Hence why I hope the dollar doesn't fall, because I enjoy my freedom of speech.

[pungopete468]

- I think Bitcoin is just as based on trust as any other currency. Bitcoin is a change of opinion away from being valueless, just like everything else.

- Under this premise Bitcoin is no different than dollars. Except that it cannot be created out of thin air, which it essentially is, except instead of a physical object you have a string of data and that is all. I have the same thing now, my dollars are strings of data on my debit card.

- I just don't see why people would gravitate to Bitcoin, it holds no advantage to any other already existing currency.

I would tend to agree, the world doesn't trust dollars, but now we're beginning to veer into a "world without America" scenario and that is a very different discussion from "the world without the dollar". I would also agree that the "guns" are more than likely pushing the world into an authoritarian government. I think the next major collapse will be the end of the free thinking groups/ideals like the bitcoin community. Hence why I hope the dollar doesn't fall, because I enjoy my freedom of speech.

 - I agree with your statement to a small extent. However, there is a subtle difference between trusting Bitcoin and trusting the dollar. Trust in every other currency is only trust in the issuing party. The central party is the weak link because people are unpredictable. Bitcoin is predictable and trusting in math is more reliable than trusting in a person. The trust people place in Bitcoin is earned, the trust in central currency is given.

 - Bitcoin shares several of the advantages of fiat with the strong property rights of a gold standard. The data on your debit card is similar to Bitcoin. Plenty of people consider those strings of data valuable. You can have the convenience of our current system without the counter party risk. The problem I'm illustrating is a result of electronically transferring a tangible form of wealth. Bitcoin is redeemable anywhere as opposed to a paper note backing an asset where it can only be redeemed at a specific location relative to the asset it backs. The only way to achieve this with a currency backed by a commodity is to use a fractional reserve system.

 - The advantages are different from person to person. I can think of several advantages to real life situations. It might not be advantageous to you specifically but that's not an accurate representation for everybody else.

I think the collapse will be hell. I think it won't be the end of free thinking but that would be the cost of losing the struggle... There are guns on both sides... I hope the dollar doesn't fail but I also hope that an Asteroid never hits the earth, and humanity survives long enough to find life elsewhere in the Universe. Hope is important, but it's not enough without action.

[MatTheCat]

People wouldn't be able to exchange USD for BTC, so bad.

Ill trade you a quarter bitcoin for that nice boat of yours.

See how easy that was? No dollar or banker needed.

HA FOOL!

That quarter Bitcoin is now worth two boats!

Oh Shit, no wait a minute, now it is only worth half a boat! Hey, give me my fkn boat back!

Wait!? What is this?, Now the exchange won't give me my money until I prove where my Bitcoin came from!

Fuck them, I will just cash it out on LocalBitcoins......"How much premium was that you are charging!? Did you just say 20% under spot!?"

Holy shit!

Next time, just wire the funds into my account buddy, ok?

[pungopete468]

People wouldn't be able to exchange USD for BTC, so bad.

Ill trade you a quarter bitcoin for that nice boat of yours.

See how easy that was? No dollar or banker needed.

HA FOOL!

That quarter Bitcoin is now worth two boats!

Oh Shit, no wait a minute, now it is only worth half a boat! Hey, give me my fkn boat back!

Wait!? What is this?, Now the exchange won't give me my money until I prove where my Bitcoin came from!

Fuck them, I will just cash it out on LocalBitcoins......"How much premium was that you are charging!? Did you just say 20% under spot!?"

Holy shit!

Next time, just wire the funds into my account buddy, ok?

This is a fiat world where everything is manipulated. The current behavior isn't really a good measure for the hypothetical behavior in this scenario.

[dead_bit]

People wouldn't be able to exchange USD for BTC, so bad.

Ill trade you a quarter bitcoin for that nice boat of yours.

See how easy that was? No dollar or banker needed.

HA FOOL!

That quarter Bitcoin is now worth two boats!

Oh Shit, no wait a minute, now it is only worth half a boat! Hey, give me my fkn boat back!

Wait!? What is this?, Now the exchange won't give me my money until I prove where my Bitcoin came from!

Fuck them, I will just cash it out on LocalBitcoins......"How much premium was that you are charging!? Did you just say 20% under spot!?"

Holy shit!

Next time, just wire the funds into my account buddy, ok?

This is a fiat world where everything is manipulated. The current behavior isn't really a good measure for the hypothetical behavior in this scenario.

Because Bitcoin is never manipulated?

- I agree with your statement to a small extent. However, there is a subtle difference between trusting Bitcoin and trusting the dollar. Trust in every other currency is only trust in the issuing party. The central party is the weak link because people are unpredictable. Bitcoin is predictable and trusting in math is more reliable than trusting in a person. The trust people place in Bitcoin is earned, the trust in central currency is given.

 - Bitcoin shares several of the advantages of fiat with the strong property rights of a gold standard. The data on your debit card is similar to Bitcoin. Plenty of people consider those strings of data valuable. You can have the convenience of our current system without the counter party risk. The problem I'm illustrating is a result of electronically transferring a tangible form of wealth. Bitcoin is redeemable anywhere as opposed to a paper note backing an asset where it can only be redeemed at a specific location relative to the asset it backs. The only way to achieve this with a currency backed by a commodity is to use a fractional reserve system.

 - The advantages are different from person to person. I can think of several advantages to real life situations. It might not be advantageous to you specifically but that's not an accurate representation for everybody else.

I think the collapse will be hell. I think it won't be the end of free thinking but that would be the cost of losing the struggle... There are guns on both sides... I hope the dollar doesn't fail but I also hope that an Asteroid never hits the earth, and humanity survives long enough to find life elsewhere in the Universe. Hope is important, but it's not enough without action.

- I don't think Bitcoin has yet earned the trust people are attempting to attribute to it.

Hmm other than that I basically agree with everything your saying.

[TERA]

How did I know some ridiculous bulls were going to blurt out "btc will skyrocket"?  

no...

Guys you are seeing the effects of the economic collapse on bitcoin already - we are in the early stages of the economic collapse, and, it is going down.

Just because btc theoretically could be used as everyone's store of value, doesn't mean it WILL. It is not big enough yet, and right now people are going to store wealth into something more historically reliable. When a crisis happens, people panic and revert back into a very oldschool state of mind. Speculative financial investments and new hightech paradigms are out. Gold, land, food, and survival gear are in.

For someone to use bitcoin as the store of value, they must first trust that it'll hold value and not collapse with the rest of the economy. With only a 4 year history there is no way to trust that this will be true, and it hasn't been tested in that type of crisis yet.

Most of btc's trading is in USD (CNY trading is mostly fake), and more importantly, most btc business/enterprise/innovation is based in the U.S., so if the U.S. or the U.S.D. collapses, it is a good case to cripple bitcoin. Bitcoin's price is held up mostly by two things, and neither of these are it being used as a store of value (like gold). It is mostly:
A) Speculator buy-ins to ride price trends.
B) The underlying businesses/ecnonomy that bitcoin is used for.
Both of these will likely suffer due to an economic collapse, and most of the support for bitcoin will be lost. This will likely outweigh those trying to use bitcoin as a store of value.

Instead of a pressure to get into bitcoin, what we have has a pressure to get OUT of bitcoin, and a reduced demand. Sure, there may be more dollars, which should theoretically raise the btc/usd ratio. The problem is, that people need ALL of these dollars. This is due to:
A) The very same inflation we're talking about
B) Needing to do extra emergency spending due to the crisis, including

1. Food/Water
2. Shelter
3. Land
4. Guns
5. Precious metals
6. Extra spending just to have fun before the apocalypse and enjoy the dollars while they still have value.
7. Arrangements to relocate to foreign countries

I have a banker freind who I mentioned bitcoin to. His first reaction to me was "you have 45 days to sell and get out". I was shocked and confused by the response. He then discussed with me the impending ecnomic collapse. This was 30 days ago...



If anyone is wonder why my sentiments have been annoyingly bearish over the past month, it is not just because of charts and squiggly lines.

[pungopete468]

How did I know some ridiculous bulls were going to blurt out "btc will skyrocket"?  

no...

Guys you are seeing the effects of the economic collapse on bitcoin already - we are in the early stages of the economic collapse, and, it is going down.

Just because btc theoretically could be used as everyone's store of value, doesn't mean it WILL. It is not big enough yet, and right now people are going to store wealth into something more historically reliable. When a crisis happens, people panic and revert back into a very oldschool state of mind. Speculative financial investments and new hightech paradigms are out. Gold, land, food, and survival gear are in.

For someone to use bitcoin as the store of value, they must first trust that it'll hold value and not collapse with the rest of the economy. With only a 4 year history there is no way to trust that this will be true, and it hasn't been tested in that type of crisis yet.

Most of btc's trading is in USD (CNY trading is mostly fake), and more importantly, most btc business/enterprise/innovation is based in the U.S., so if the U.S. or the U.S.D. collapses, it is a good case to cripple bitcoin. Bitcoin's price is held up mostly by two things, and neither of these are it being used as a store of value (like gold). It is mostly:
A) Speculator buy-ins to ride price trends.
B) The underlying businesses/ecnonomy that bitcoin is used for.
Both of these will likely suffer due to an economic collapse, and most of the support for bitcoin will be lost. This will likely outweigh those trying to use bitcoin as a store of value.

Instead of a pressure to get into bitcoin, what we have has a pressure to get OUT of bitcoin, and a reduced demand. Sure, there may be more dollars, which should theoretically raise the btc/usd ratio. The problem is, that people need ALL of these dollars. This is due to:
A) The very same inflation we're talking about
B) Needing to do extra emergency spending due to the crisis, including

1. Food/Water
2. Shelter
3. Land
4. Guns
5. Precious metals
6. Extra spending just to have fun before the apocalypse and enjoy the dollars while they still have value.
7. Arrangements to relocate to foreign countries

I have a banker freind who I mentioned bitcoin to. His first reaction to me was "you have 45 days to sell and get out". I was shocked and confused by the response. He then discussed with me the impending ecnomic collapse. This was 30 days ago...

Bitcoin doesn't need to skyrocket. It just needs to remain useful... Everything is going to collapse across the board and the market will re-evaluate everything. There will be a chaotic period of price discovery and nothing is exempt.

When the collapse happens you will have no more wealth, gold coins will be worth no more than the goods your grocer is willing to trade you for it. Where should somebody place wealth when everything is going to collapse? The gold standard doesn't work. Everybody knows that... Guns and ammo are a great investment but they will be more susceptible to theft after a collapse... Not everybody can buy land property or real-estate.

Basically, it doesn't matter if you have a basement full of gold bars or a million Bitcoins. Your wealth will be redefined over an unknown period of time after the fiat system crumbles. Bitcoin will survive, gold will survive, people will survive and barter. The storm will pass and the world will pick itself up, dust itself off, and move along.

Even though Bitcoin will lose value immediately during/after a collapse it will be revalued. Bitcoin is extremely useful in trade, especially international trade where the journey might be treacherous or risky. Your pockets can't be picked of Bitcoin, your Bitcoins can't easily be swiped, and you won't need to hire private security to protect your life savings.

When the collapse happens, and I think it will be soon; move your wealth into the things necessary to protect your life first, then make a choice between gold and Bitcoin. I believe my wealth will be safer in Bitcoin over gold. I can't protect physical gold from theft as easily as I can protect Bitcoin from theft... Plus I completely expect the governments around the world will appropriate as much civilian gold as they can; just like under FDR. After the world re-establishes a fractional reserve gold standard, Bitcoin will be exchanged for that currency just as it is for fiat... The advantages of Bitcoin will be even greater than they are today.

I think it's a situation where everybody will be forced to choose between two terrible situations; nobody will be preserving their wealth in the near term either way...

We'll be living to witness this historical event. Nobody knows how it will play out for certain.

[Ibian]

How did I know some ridiculous bulls were going to blurt out "btc will skyrocket"?  

no...

Guys you are seeing the effects of the economic collapse on bitcoin already - we are in the early stages of the economic collapse, and, it is going down.

Just because btc theoretically could be used as everyone's store of value, doesn't mean it WILL. It is not big enough yet, and right now people are going to store wealth into something more historically reliable. When a crisis happens, people panic and revert back into a very oldschool state of mind. Speculative financial investments and new hightech paradigms are out. Gold, land, food, and survival gear are in.

For someone to use bitcoin as the store of value, they must first trust that it'll hold value and not collapse with the rest of the economy. With only a 4 year history there is no way to trust that this will be true, and it hasn't been tested in that type of crisis yet.

Most of btc's trading is in USD (CNY trading is mostly fake), and more importantly, most btc business/enterprise/innovation is based in the U.S., so if the U.S. or the U.S.D. collapses, it is a good case to cripple bitcoin. Bitcoin's price is held up mostly by two things, and neither of these are it being used as a store of value (like gold). It is mostly:
A) Speculator buy-ins to ride price trends.
B) The underlying businesses/ecnonomy that bitcoin is used for.
Both of these will likely suffer due to an economic collapse, and most of the support for bitcoin will be lost. This will likely outweigh those trying to use bitcoin as a store of value.

Instead of a pressure to get into bitcoin, what we have has a pressure to get OUT of bitcoin, and a reduced demand. Sure, there may be more dollars, which should theoretically raise the btc/usd ratio. The problem is, that people need ALL of these dollars. This is due to:
A) The very same inflation we're talking about
B) Needing to do extra emergency spending due to the crisis, including

1. Food/Water
2. Shelter
3. Land
4. Guns
5. Precious metals
6. Extra spending just to have fun before the apocalypse and enjoy the dollars while they still have value.
7. Arrangements to relocate to foreign countries

I have a banker freind who I mentioned bitcoin to. His first reaction to me was "you have 45 days to sell and get out". I was shocked and confused by the response. He then discussed with me the impending ecnomic collapse. This was 30 days ago...



If anyone is wonder why my sentiments have been annoyingly bearish over the past month, it is not just because of charts and squiggly lines.

How did i know tera would be a negative nancy 

Don't listen to bankers you idiot. And I'll bet any amount you like that the price will not have gone to double digits when your 45 days are up.

[counter]

This is a very good question you ask.  I think that it would be uncharted territory for bitcoin and for the rest of the world.  In many ways I can see it as a good thing for bitcoin but not for the rest of the world that would be experiencing some serious unrest in my mind.

[Erdogan]

USD will go down in hyperinflation, but it might be the last one standing.

Bitcoin might be too late to come as an alternative. Depends on bitcoin usage expansion and the timeframe of USD fall.

The PTSB (powers that shouldn't be) might think up an alternative fiat some time in the future. It could even be a centralized fiat cryptocoin.


Here is a fun fact from the money history. (I couldn't be bothered to find references for this now, do it yourself or disregard it as a fairytale). At some point in time and space, the currency was so debased (think silver coins with a low silver content), that a single coin bought almost nothing. It was custom to use a bag (purse) to hold a number of coins, and exchange the bag. The receiver would not normally open the purse to count the coins, because he knew that the next person would also not open it. Therefore the fact that the number of coins could be one or two short of the standard was not important.

This is analogous to the fact that some dollar bills are fake, but you don't check each bill thoroughly, because you know that the next guy doesn't either.

Now the point of this long story: The bitcoin network does not have to be available to everybody at all times, for bitcoin to be universally useful. Fixed amount of coins, like bills, could be created on a sheet of paper with the secret under a fold. This could be used as money, and someone accepting it could check if he wanted. Else anybody could just accept it and hope that most of his bills are loaded. The issuer could even date and sign it for later reference.

So yes, bitcoin could be useful money for everybody in case of an epic fiat fail.

The value would of course also rise epically.

[MatTheCat]

How did i know tera would be a negative nancy 

Don't listen to bankers you idiot. And I'll bet any amount you like that the price will not have gone to double digits when your 45 days are up.

Negative Nancy = A beacon of pragmatic realism amongst a sea of naive delusionalism?

[Ibian]

How did i know tera would be a negative nancy 

Don't listen to bankers you idiot. And I'll bet any amount you like that the price will not have gone to double digits when your 45 days are up.

Negative Nancy = A beacon of pragmatic realism amongst a sea of naive delusionalism?

It's an open bet. Double digits in less than two weeks?

[windjc]

How did I know some ridiculous bulls were going to blurt out "btc will skyrocket"?  

no...

Guys you are seeing the effects of the economic collapse on bitcoin already - we are in the early stages of the economic collapse, and, it is going down.

Just because btc theoretically could be used as everyone's store of value, doesn't mean it WILL. It is not big enough yet, and right now people are going to store wealth into something more historically reliable. When a crisis happens, people panic and revert back into a very oldschool state of mind. Speculative financial investments and new hightech paradigms are out. Gold, land, food, and survival gear are in.

For someone to use bitcoin as the store of value, they must first trust that it'll hold value and not collapse with the rest of the economy. With only a 4 year history there is no way to trust that this will be true, and it hasn't been tested in that type of crisis yet.

Most of btc's trading is in USD (CNY trading is mostly fake), and more importantly, most btc business/enterprise/innovation is based in the U.S., so if the U.S. or the U.S.D. collapses, it is a good case to cripple bitcoin. Bitcoin's price is held up mostly by two things, and neither of these are it being used as a store of value (like gold). It is mostly:
A) Speculator buy-ins to ride price trends.
B) The underlying businesses/ecnonomy that bitcoin is used for.
Both of these will likely suffer due to an economic collapse, and most of the support for bitcoin will be lost. This will likely outweigh those trying to use bitcoin as a store of value.

Instead of a pressure to get into bitcoin, what we have has a pressure to get OUT of bitcoin, and a reduced demand. Sure, there may be more dollars, which should theoretically raise the btc/usd ratio. The problem is, that people need ALL of these dollars. This is due to:
A) The very same inflation we're talking about
B) Needing to do extra emergency spending due to the crisis, including

1. Food/Water
2. Shelter
3. Land
4. Guns
5. Precious metals
6. Extra spending just to have fun before the apocalypse and enjoy the dollars while they still have value.
7. Arrangements to relocate to foreign countries

I have a banker freind who I mentioned bitcoin to. His first reaction to me was "you have 45 days to sell and get out". I was shocked and confused by the response. He then discussed with me the impending ecnomic collapse. This was 30 days ago...



If anyone is wonder why my sentiments have been annoyingly bearish over the past month, it is not just because of charts and squiggly lines.

You have a banker friend? WTF?

How many guns and much land did you buy for the zombie apocalypse?

[stylin]

USD will go down in hyperinflation, but it might be the last one standing.

Bitcoin might be too late to come as an alternative. Depends on bitcoin usage expansion and the timeframe of USD fall.

I agree with you. A lot is riding on when exactly this complete and total collapse comes. If it comes next year bitcoin is probably screwed. If it comes decades from now, who knows what inroads cryptocurrency will have made into society. Kids these days are growing up with technology, it's not hard to imagine when they are adults could trust it just like they can trust hard assets like gold.

I don't think complete collapse is due for a while though... people are just satisfied enough that nobody is even thinking of a revolution these days. The gov't and Wall Street are playing it very smart... slowly and gradually bleed the American citizen instead of taking it all at once. You put a frog in a pan and start heating it up...

I believe collapse will happen decades from now. We have a bit of time IMO

Money has to be either:

• Something of inherent and reliable value. (gold, silver, cigarettes, bullets)
• A unit of account backed by the authority of an authority with tax raising powers.

Bitcoin is neither of those. Bitcoin is merely a vessel or potential vessel of any given unit of exchange which enough people are prepared to reliably swap for the Bitcoin. It is not about the Bitcoin, it is about what the Bitcoin can be swapped over for.

Bitcoin (or cryptocurrency in general) could fit into the first option. Like I said before it depends on the timeframe of collapse. Newer generations are more and more trusting of technology... it's not too much of a stretch to believe that 30 years from now people will be capable of considering mathematical algorithms and lines of code as "inherently valuable."

[Ibian]

2020.

[stylin]

How did I know some ridiculous bulls were going to blurt out "btc will skyrocket"?  

I have a banker freind who I mentioned bitcoin to. His first reaction to me was "you have 45 days to sell and get out". I was shocked and confused by the response. He then discussed with me the impending ecnomic collapse. This was 30 days ago...

I doubt a financial collapse like '08/'09 would affect the price of bitcoin that much. Maybe it would lower bitcoin prices like it did to gold prices during '08/'09. We are headed for another stock market crash and a recession in the the next couple of years (and for the poor/middle class the recession is still not over) but absolutely nothing catastrophic will happen in the next few years.

[damnek]

How did I know some ridiculous bulls were going to blurt out "btc will skyrocket"? 

I have a banker freind who I mentioned bitcoin to. His first reaction to me was "you have 45 days to sell and get out". I was shocked and confused by the response. He then discussed with me the impending ecnomic collapse. This was 30 days ago...

I doubt a financial collapse like '08/'09 would affect the price of bitcoin that much. Maybe it would lower bitcoin prices like it did to gold prices during '08/'09. We are headed for another stock market crash and a recession in the the next couple of years (and for the poor/middle class the recession is still not over) but absolutely nothing catastrophic will happen in the next few years.

It's ironic that this "banker" makes that comment about bitcoin, which was in fact born out of the 08/09 crisis (I'm referring to satoshi's famous genesis block message).

[byronbb]

The world will see many weaker currencies fail before the USD does. China and Russia seem to be getting friendly and are flirting with dropping their US T-Bills and/or dealing for oil in a currency other than the USD.

[wobber]

Everyone who wants USD or other currency to crash so their bitcoin stash gets more powerful, it's simply retarded.

USD crash would bring much turmoil and might make bitcoin seem a joke (that consumes too many resources)

So stop saying / wanting that.

[wobber]

Money has to be either:

• Something of inherent and reliable value. (gold, silver, cigarettes, bullets)
• Unit of account backed by the authority

Bitcoin is neither.

Bitcoin is vessel on any given unit of exchange

If you tend to be conservative in your thinking you will not be able to see progress. Bitcoin is money. It has inherent value (will ever be, electricity is used to mine them, this gives it value and we cannot clone them). Authority that backs bitcoin up is the community.

[Erdogan]

Money has to be either:

• Something of inherent and reliable value. (gold, silver, cigarettes, bullets)
• Unit of account backed by the authority

Bitcoin is neither.

Bitcoin is vessel on any given unit of exchange

Nah. Everything has value, either direct use value or exchange value or both. Exchange value, which you also could call money value, comes from the reservation demand that the traders set out. Whatever is money, is what the traders prefer to use.

The value comes from the minds of the individuals, different for everyone.

Most things has use value, so you buy it (demand it) because you want to use it. Doesn't make a difference if you consume it right away, and the value disappears, or it is a durable good that you consume over years. The point is that you aquire it for the value it gives you, or the inherent value. It makes no sense to hoard bicycles if you want to save for your daughters education. 

When something is used in indirect exchange, its value increases as a consequence. Some things have both types of value, example gold, but it is impossible to exactly define the magnitude of the use value part compared to the exchange value part.

Fiat money has only exchange value, making it pure money, a nice invention. It is not the zero inherent (use value) that is its problem, rather it is the fact that someone controls the supply irresponsibly.

With bitcoin you have the advantage of pure money (no intrinsic value) and at the same time it is not centrally controlled, so nobody can steal value from the hoarders by creating more. It is nearly perfect, clean, pure money, with only some small drawbacks compared to some other money, that can easily be fixed using added services.

tl;dr that was a rerun of the value discussion, some new users may find it interesting.

[MatTheCat]

@wobber

Bitcoin is money. It has inherent value (will ever be, electricity is used to mine them, this gives it value and we cannot clone them). Authority that backs bitcoin up is the community.

Thank you to spend the time to write those words

@Erdogan

You are right

Oh, and can I still use that electricity. Can I take one Bitcoin and turn it into so many watts of electrical power?

[aminorex]

Oh, and can I still use that electricity. Can I take one Bitcoin and turn it into so many watts of electrical power?

That's what I do, every month when I pay my utility bill, so yes, in fact you can.  About 6mwh per btc, here.

[Erdogan]

@wobber

Bitcoin is money. It has inherent value (will ever be, electricity is used to mine them, this gives it value and we cannot clone them). Authority that backs bitcoin up is the community.

Thank you to spend the time to write those words

@Erdogan

You are right

Oh, and can I still use that electricity. Can I take one Bitcoin and turn it into so many watts of electrical power?

You can buy electric power with bitcoin, but you can not squeeze out the electricity used to mine it. Production of coins have a cost, but no direct use value - so what? The value of the system to the world trade can be epic. Not that I care too much, I am interested in what is in it for me, but it is sometimes good to know that my rational selfish actions are not destructive to society.

[aminorex]

Money has to be either:

• Something of inherent and reliable value. (gold, silver, cigarettes, bullets)
• Unit of account backed by the authority

Bitcoin is neither.

Bitcoin is vessel on any given unit of exchange

Bitcoin is both:

Bitcoin is a ledger entry in the leading global ledger, which has an effective monopoly on access to free markets.  The ability to play in that game is of inherent and reliable value.  It is a unit of account backed by the authority of secp256k1/ripem160/sha256d, an authority which is more effectively and justly enforced than any human law in history.

The protocol is the vessel.

[dead_bit]

Eventually everyone is going to figure out that Bitcoin has no value outside of investment and it's going to die. Speculation of a dollar collapse affecting Bitcoin is just that, speculation.

I think the real question is...

"How will the Bitcoin collapse affect the dollar?"

[Erdogan]

Eventually everyone is going to figure out that Bitcoin has no value outside of investment and it's going to die. Speculation of a dollar collapse affecting Bitcoin is just that, speculation.

I think the real question is...

"How will the Bitcoin collapse affect the dollar?"

That will be an epic deflation of prices of goods measured in dollars. The price of a big mac will be reduced from 100000000000 USD down to 79 USD.

[dead_bit]

Eventually everyone is going to figure out that Bitcoin has no value outside of investment and it's going to die. Speculation of a dollar collapse affecting Bitcoin is just that, speculation.

I think the real question is...

"How will the Bitcoin collapse affect the dollar?"

That will be an epic deflation of prices of goods measured in dollars. The price of a big mac will be reduced from 100000000000 USD down to 79 USD.

If only something would deflate the dollar...

[Xell]

I much more interesting way to interpret this question is, if the value of the dollar fell 10% in almost one go against the Euro & GBP etc, would the value of bitcoin also fall a similar amount against those currencies? It's time the Bitcoin wasn't only priced in USD. FOr me, my costs are priced in USD (well, Hongkong$ which is linked with us$) so I mind a lot less than I would if I lived in the UK.

So how about we consider the question of a USD 'collapse' being a very sudden substantial (10%) decrease against the rest of the worlds currencies rather than a total collapse. Is that's what required to stop bitcoin being so closely linked to the USD? Long gone are the days when the us$ was the obvious international currency of choice.