[ANN][CHA] Chancecoin, SuperNET core coin for betting in a decentralized casino

[SyRenity]

Is there any strong opposition to moving to a faster blockchain?

Would Dogecoin be the best blockchain?

On a related note, this might not completely solve the issue, as it seems that the NY Lottery numbers have been slightly delayed recently, which also contributes to the slowness, so we may still have to consider other sources of randomness.

What about PoS cryptos, like NXT or BlackCoin? Both of them feature very fast confirmation times.

As per randomness source, I recall there was a discussion about Cha origin in some place (where NY was criticized as possible, albeit unlikely, to be manipulated), and some natural sources of randomness like seismic activity were suggested.

[superresistant]

Hi Chancecoin!
I am just learning about the protocol.  So right now the random numbers are coming from the State of New York?  Couldn't hashes of bitcoin blocks  be the random number / random seed for all bets over a certain size, hashes of litecoin blocks could be for smaller bets, and hashes of dogecoin blocks for the next size down.  Perhaps even something like Fastcoin could be used to decide micro bets.
It wouldn't just be the size of the bet that mattered, but the total amount of all bets placed would have to be capped for each pool (bitcoin, litecoin, etc.).  The amount of money at risk for each block would have to be less than what someone would be willing to alter a blocks for.

How does it work ? Multiple blockchain ?

Is there any strong opposition to moving to a faster blockchain?
Would Dogecoin be the best blockchain?
On a related note, this might not completely solve the issue, as it seems that the NY Lottery numbers have been slightly delayed recently, which also contributes to the slowness, so we may still have to consider other sources of randomness.

What about PoS cryptos, like NXT or BlackCoin? Both of them feature very fast confirmation times.
As per randomness source, I recall there was a discussion about Cha origin in some place (where NY was criticized as possible, albeit unlikely, to be manipulated), and some natural sources of randomness like seismic activity were suggested.

Yes I am for Nxt if it is possible. The Nxt devs aim to have the fastest transactions of any payment system in the world. Moreover it is protected against 51% attack and the network is really decentralized.

[wendy5]

a good chance to  bet，lol

[Cubic Earth]

How does it work ? Multiple blockchain ?

I was proposing using hashes of blocks from other chains to be the source of randomness for deciding which bets were winning and which were losing.

The Chancecoin protocol would have to be 'aware' of other chains.  Full chancecoin nodes would take as input blocks from Bitcoin, Dogecoin, etc..  Each full node would be capable of comparing the bets it received or sent (which are the transactions in the network, right?) against the hashes of the most recent external blocks received.  So each node would able to know independently which bets were won and lost.  That would make coming to consensus easy.

Maybe this is already how it works?  I don't even know if such a concept is compatible with Chancecoin's structure.

[huasuli]

a good chance to  bet，lol

when will cha be listed in bter ?

[magician]

a good chance to  bet，lol

when will cha be listed in bter ?

Bter hasn't responded to our inquiries yet. You should all contact Bter so they are inundated with requests to add Chancecoin. Go to bter's Web site and use one of the contact methods they list on the sidebar. Bter is the ideal next exchange to target because they already added XCP, so they should have the technical ability to add Chancecoin, since the software is similar (in that it's not just a standard Litecoin clone).

Magician

[magician]

Hi Chancecoin!
I am just learning about the protocol.  So right now the random numbers are coming from the State of New York?  Couldn't hashes of bitcoin blocks  be the random number / random seed for all bets over a certain size, hashes of litecoin blocks could be for smaller bets, and hashes of dogecoin blocks for the next size down.  Perhaps even something like Fastcoin could be used to decide micro bets.
It wouldn't just be the size of the bet that mattered, but the total amount of all bets placed would have to be capped for each pool (bitcoin, litecoin, etc.).  The amount of money at risk for each block would have to be less than what someone would be willing to alter a blocks for.

How does it work ? Multiple blockchain ?

Is there any strong opposition to moving to a faster blockchain?
Would Dogecoin be the best blockchain?
On a related note, this might not completely solve the issue, as it seems that the NY Lottery numbers have been slightly delayed recently, which also contributes to the slowness, so we may still have to consider other sources of randomness.

What about PoS cryptos, like NXT or BlackCoin? Both of them feature very fast confirmation times.
As per randomness source, I recall there was a discussion about Cha origin in some place (where NY was criticized as possible, albeit unlikely, to be manipulated), and some natural sources of randomness like seismic activity were suggested.

Yes I am for Nxt if it is possible. The Nxt devs aim to have the fastest transactions of any payment system in the world. Moreover it is protected against 51% attack and the network is really decentralized.

Let's talk more in depth about where we can make Chancecoin transactions faster. When you place a bet, the first thing that happens is it goes into "pending" state, which means that you've sent the transaction successfully, but it hasn't been confirmed yet in the Bitcoin blockchain. It takes an average of 10 minutes for a transaction to be confirmed by the Bitcoin blockchain. It's possible for us to use an alternate Blockchain (such as Dogecoin or NXT) for betting transactions in order to speed up this part of the process. One possible drawback is that Chancecoin users would need to have Dogecoin or NXT funds available in order to take advantage of such a feature.

Once the bet has been confirmed, it goes into the "unresolved" state. This is when Chancecoin is waiting for the next set of NY Lottery numbers to come out. The lottery numbers are drawn every four minutes, but they sometimes aren't published for up to 30 minutes. This is actually the slowest part of the betting process typically, so it should be our first priority to fix this. If we can fix this part of the process, then Chancecoin will be as fast as Satoshi Dice, in that all you have to do is make a transaction, and as soon as it's confirmed, you see the result. (If we also use a faster blockchain, Chancecoin will be faster than Satoshi Dice, but slower than Just-Dice.)

Ideally, we would find an alternate source of randomness, but so far I haven't been able to find one. Our source of randomness needs to be a trustworthy, tamper-proof one that releases random numbers periodically, timestamps them, and publishes them. Services just like that are hard to find. One possible solution is to make our own service like this (something like chancecoin.com/randomness). Would that be too centralized/untrustworthy for you?

The other possible solution is to go back to using the Bitcoin blockchain hash as the source of randomness. The drawback here (as has been previously discussed) is that someone with a lot of hashing power could manipulate Chancecoin by waiting for a hash that is favorable to them. Note that this isn't exactly the easiest thing to do. A miner would literally have to decide to throw away a block (along with the 25 BTC + fees reward) if the hash doesn't favor their Chancecoin transactions. I propose that we go back to using Blockchain hashes as our source of randomness for transactions in blocks where the total amount of CHA that can possibly be won (for all bets in the block) is less than 2,000 CHA. If the total amount that can possibly be won exceeds 2,000 CHA then the NY Lottery numbers would be used. This should sufficiently minimize the incentive to manipulate blocks. Thoughts?

Your friend,
Magician

[SyRenity]

Let's talk more in depth about where we can make Chancecoin transactions faster. When you place a bet, the first thing that happens is it goes into "pending" state, which means that you've sent the transaction successfully, but it hasn't been confirmed yet in the Bitcoin blockchain. It takes an average of 10 minutes for a transaction to be confirmed by the Bitcoin blockchain. It's possible for us to use an alternate Blockchain (such as Dogecoin or NXT) for betting transactions in order to speed up this part of the process. One possible drawback is that Chancecoin users would need to have Dogecoin or NXT funds available in order to take advantage of such a feature.

The other possible solution is to go back to using the Bitcoin blockchain hash as the source of randomness. The drawback here (as has been previously discussed) is that someone with a lot of hashing power could manipulate Chancecoin by waiting for a hash that is favorable to them. Note that this isn't exactly the easiest thing to do. A miner would literally have to decide to throw away a block (along with the 25 BTC + fees reward) if the hash doesn't favor their Chancecoin transactions. I propose that we go back to using Blockchain hashes as our source of randomness for transactions in blocks where the total amount of CHA that can possibly be won (for all bets in the block) is less than 2,000 CHA. If the total amount that can possibly be won exceeds 2,000 CHA then the NY Lottery numbers would be used. This should sufficiently minimize the incentive to manipulate blocks. Thoughts?

What about launching your own chain (based on NXT or BC code for example)? Then these transfer fees could be deducted from the winnings, and paid out to nodes holder whose sole role will be maintaining this transactions blockchain.

You also reminded me where I heard this discussion and the solution presented there - indeed, using BTC itself might be the solution, just take each block hash (or portion of it) as the source. Mounting an attack is possible (see the relevant ghash.io / Satoshi Dice thread), though I pretty much would rely here on the miner community, who seeing this will quickly abandon such pool. Having big bets still coming from NY lottery (where any fraud would be much more seriously treated), is also a good option.

[TwinWinNerD]

The solution with <2000 CHA won sounds really good. I think that having a second blockchain and a second amount of currency is just a too big of a hassle.

Blockhashes in BTC are very reliable and very hard to manipulate without ridiculously high hashpower!

BTW: I am not at home atm, but once I am back in a few days, I will pick up the promoting again!

[magician]

The solution with <2000 CHA won sounds really good. I think that having a second blockchain and a second amount of currency is just a too big of a hassle.

Agreed. 

[peled1986]

I propose that we go back to using Blockchain hashes as our source of randomness for transactions in blocks where the total amount of CHA that can possibly be won (for all bets in the block) is less than 2,000 CHA.

+1

2,000 CHA = about 2 btc right now.
I think its safe even with a total of 5,000.

Let's talk more in depth about where we can make Chancecoin transactions faster. When you place a bet, the first thing that happens is it goes into "pending" state, which means that you've sent the transaction successfully, but it hasn't been confirmed yet in the Bitcoin blockchain. It takes an average of 10 minutes for a transaction to be confirmed by the Bitcoin blockchain. It's possible for us to use an alternate Blockchain (such as Dogecoin or NXT) for betting transactions in order to speed up this part of the process. One possible drawback is that Chancecoin users would need to have Dogecoin or NXT funds available in order to take advantage of such a feature.

I think it is very importent to have the bid confirmed in 1 min or less.

[Venetian]

I propose that we go back to using Blockchain hashes as our source of randomness for transactions in blocks where the total amount of CHA that can possibly be won (for all bets in the block) is less than 2,000 CHA.

+1

2,000 CHA = about 2 btc right now.
I think its safe even with a total of 5,000.

Since each mining block has 25 bitcoins and using the burn valuation of 0.001 BTC/CHA, we are considering using the Blockchain hashes as a source of randomness for bets in blocks where the max payout is less than 25,000 CHA. For blocks where the total bet payout is over 25,000 CHA, we will use the new york lottery numbers in addition to the bitcoin block hashes. This should allow us to resolve the bet as soon as the current block is mined, significantly reducing the waiting time. Let us know what you think.

Venetian

[superresistant]

I propose that we go back to using Blockchain hashes as our source of randomness for transactions in blocks where the total amount of CHA that can possibly be won (for all bets in the block) is less than 2,000 CHA.

+1
2,000 CHA = about 2 btc right now.
I think its safe even with a total of 5,000.

Since each mining block has 25 bitcoins and using the burn valuation of 0.001 BTC/CHA, we are considering using the Blockchain hashes as a source of randomness for bets in blocks where the max payout is less than 25,000 CHA. For blocks where the total bet payout is over 25,000 CHA, we will use the new york lottery numbers in addition to the bitcoin block hashes. This should allow us to resolve the bet as soon as the current block is mined, significantly reducing the waiting time. Let us know what you think.
Venetian

What will be the average waiting time ?

[magician]

I propose that we go back to using Blockchain hashes as our source of randomness for transactions in blocks where the total amount of CHA that can possibly be won (for all bets in the block) is less than 2,000 CHA.

+1
2,000 CHA = about 2 btc right now.
I think its safe even with a total of 5,000.

Since each mining block has 25 bitcoins and using the burn valuation of 0.001 BTC/CHA, we are considering using the Blockchain hashes as a source of randomness for bets in blocks where the max payout is less than 25,000 CHA. For blocks where the total bet payout is over 25,000 CHA, we will use the new york lottery numbers in addition to the bitcoin block hashes. This should allow us to resolve the bet as soon as the current block is mined, significantly reducing the waiting time. Let us know what you think.
Venetian

What will be the average waiting time ?

The average wait time will be 10 minutes (faster than Satoshi Dice, since they have to send you something in the next block to indicate the result), as this is the average time for a block to be mined.

[bingjiw]

About speed:
  We can learn from Ripple and Simcoin, how did Ripple and Simcoin can make instant transaction confirm.

About randomness source:
  Every player should choose a random number by themself and submit it with other bet info to the Chancecoin p2p network.  The Chancecoin P2P network then collect all random numbers submitted by all players, and calculate them all and output get a terminal random number which is used as the random source by current round gamble.    So because the terminal random number is decided by all the random numbers submited by all players of that round, so no one can cheat.  If you want to cheat, you have to know all the numbers before you sent your number.

[peled1986]

I propose that we go back to using Blockchain hashes as our source of randomness for transactions in blocks where the total amount of CHA that can possibly be won (for all bets in the block) is less than 2,000 CHA.

+1
2,000 CHA = about 2 btc right now.
I think its safe even with a total of 5,000.

Since each mining block has 25 bitcoins and using the burn valuation of 0.001 BTC/CHA, we are considering using the Blockchain hashes as a source of randomness for bets in blocks where the max payout is less than 25,000 CHA. For blocks where the total bet payout is over 25,000 CHA, we will use the new york lottery numbers in addition to the bitcoin block hashes. This should allow us to resolve the bet as soon as the current block is mined, significantly reducing the waiting time. Let us know what you think.
Venetian

What will be the average waiting time ?

The average wait time will be 10 minutes (faster than Satoshi Dice, since they have to send you something in the next block to indicate the result), as this is the average time for a block to be mined.

above 25,000 CHA  =  new york lottery numbers in addition to the bitcoin block hashes - sounds good.

I played with https://primedice.com/ quite a lot in the past - the results are immediately.

@magician what do you mean that CHA will be faster?

Code:

PrimeDice offers state of the art verification which allows our users to check the integrity of every roll
and confirm they are not manipulated. Our random numbers are generated through the use of three seeds. 
These are: the server seed, secret seed and most importantly, the client seed. This means that all three
seeds help determine the number generated. If one changes, the number changes.

The user is freely able to change the server seed and client seed at their own will. The secret, the final
ingredient, is kept secret until a day after the roll. The secret is the same across all bets for that given
day, therefore it cannot be changed to manipulate single bets. If it was, all rolls would not add up correctly.

How to verify bets!

To verify your provably fair bet, simply take the sha512 hash of our secret with the client seed and server
seed (In the order: secret, server seed, client seed). Take the first 8 digits of the new sha512 hash and 
convert it from hex to decimal. You will then need to divide by 42949672.95 [Which is ((2^32-1)/100] in 
order to get a 0-100 base 10 numeric value. This value will have been the roll. 

Click here for previous bet lookup!

Example php code you can also use:

$seed = $argv[1];
$server = $argv[2];
$client = $argv[3];

$hash = hash('sha512', $seed . $server . $client);

$value = substr($hash, 0, 8);
$dice = round(hexdec($value)/42949672.95,2);

echo "\{$hash\} - \{$dice\} ";

Note: Bets before ID: 225759 use sha1 instead of sha512 to calculate the hash.

[TwinWinNerD]

satoshi dice = onblockchain
prime dice = offblockchain

[peled1986]

satoshi dice = onblockchain
prime dice = offblockchain

didn't know that.
now I understand why primedice is so successful.

Let's talk more in depth about where we can make Chancecoin transactions faster. When you place a bet, the first thing that happens is it goes into "pending" state, which means that you've sent the transaction successfully, but it hasn't been confirmed yet in the Bitcoin blockchain. It takes an average of 10 minutes for a transaction to be confirmed by the Bitcoin blockchain. It's possible for us to use an alternate Blockchain (such as Dogecoin or NXT) for betting transactions in order to speed up this part of the process. One possible drawback is that Chancecoin users would need to have Dogecoin or NXT funds available in order to take advantage of such a feature.

I think this will be a major improvement to chancecoin and a smart PR move.

we need chancecoin bets to be confirmed and resolved as fast as possible.
preferably in 1 min or below if chancecoin wants to compete with the leaders.

[dexX7]

Hey guys,

in the case Chancecoin seems to be broken at the very moment - it's my fault. Unexpected maintenance on the server which CHA uses for a subset of all blockchain related queries. This may affect unspent outputs and balances.

I expect it to be finished in about 6-8 hours.

[yidian]

Hey guys,

in the case Chancecoin seems to be broken at the very moment - it's my fault. Unexpected maintenance on the server which CHA uses for a subset of all blockchain related queries. This may affect unspent outputs and balances.

I expect it to be finished in about 6-8 hours.

Would you notify us before the change in advance so that we wont panic and wont do any bet for this change.