[ANN][CHA] Chancecoin, SuperNET core coin for betting in a decentralized casino

[newpeled1986]

The next version has a fix so transactions will go through pretty much instantly. We'll work on transaction chaining as well. Alternative faster blockchains are still on the table.

great news!

If we set house edge to -2% and people wager 500,000 CHA for an expected house loss of 10,000 CHA, I'd call that a huge win for Chancecoin. The theoretical price should decrease by about 2%, but the price should really skyrocket after that kind of gambling volume.

I agree with the Devs on this - I like this creative thinking.

But truth be told I think something like this can have an impact on gambling volume but there is still more work to do on the user experience side.
Devs if you still haven't tried https://primedice.com/ please do so - It is important to check out our competition.
You will see the big difference in the speed of bets and flow.
Right now it is hard to bring new gamblers to chancecoin, its to much of a "hassle" for them.
Is it possible to have a chancecoin wallet like counterwallet (deterministic electrum wallet)?

One question is, would people be willing to provide much liquidity to such a decentralized order book.

Your innovating thinking and commitment to this project is admirable.

I would do anything in my power to help.
I can provide around 25,000 CHA as liquidity for the order book.

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[Ola]

One thing Venetian and I have been seriously considering is reducing the house edge for a period of time. Specifically, we'd like to reduce it from 1% to -2% or -1%. This would mean that gambling with CHA would be +EV (positive expectation). This should encourage more gambling and be a way to grab attention in the news. If we set house edge to -2% and people wager 500,000 CHA for an expected house loss of 10,000 CHA, I'd call that a huge win for Chancecoin. The theoretical price should decrease by about 2%, but the price should really skyrocket after that kind of gambling volume.

Another feature we're planning to implement is betting in the Chancecoin casino with BTC. With the recent shutdown of the centralized dice betting behemoth Just-Dice, this is an opportunity for us to step in and take a big piece of the action. We're still working out the exact details, but essentially, it will look like this: when betting, a user will have the choice of betting with BTC or betting with CHA. If the gambler bets with CHA, everything works like it does now. If the gambler bets with BTC, the BTC is converted into CHA, the result is determined, and then the gambler will either keep the CHA or automatically convert the CHA back into BTC. In order for this to work, we have to have a tight decentralized CHA/BTC order book.

We've decided to create a separate "casino liquidity" order book, where all quotes will be two-sided, BTC and CHA will be escrowed in advance, and quotes will have to be less than a certain maximum width. For example, I could quote 1,000 CHA and 1 BTC at a price of 0.001 and a width of 5%, so I'm essentially willing to buy 1 BTC of CHA at 0.000975 or sell 1,000 CHA of BTC at 0.001025. The quote is two-sided, so I'm committed to potentially getting filled on either side. The 1,000 CHA and 1 BTC are held in an escrow address. The "casino liquidity" order book is only there for casino-related transactions. Someone may bet BTC and have it converted into CHA using my quote. If the same gambler wants his CHA automatically converted back into BTC, he may get BTC back from me after his bet is resolved. The quote width essentially becomes a kind of house edge. The escrow addresses where quoted CHA and BTC are stored could be run by multiple trustworthy members of the community, and would be operated by the Chancecoin wallet itself. One question is, would people be willing to provide much liquidity to such a decentralized order book.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Ever innovating,
Magician

I think its important to only use CHA as the only base currency...concentrate on making a fast, easily accesible interface and users will naturally acquire CHA to participate...diluting the demand for CHA by incorporating BTC is a mistake you are about to repeat already made by the Counterparty devs.  Look at their awesome innovation yet compare their market capitalization to Mastercoin's

Someone once said: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results"....

[newpeled1986]

I think its important to only use CHA as the only base currency...concentrate on making a fast, easily accesible interface and users will naturally acquire CHA to participate...diluting the demand for CHA by incorporating BTC is a mistake you are about to repeat already made by the Counterparty devs.  Look at their awesome innovation yet compare their market capitalization to Mastercoin's

This is actually a bad example because right now if you look at coinmarketcap Counterparty has bigger ROI than Mastercoin.

[You need to remember that mastercoin crowd sell was in July-Aug sending a total of about 5000 bitcoins worth about US$500,000 at the time. Counterparty burning bitcoins was in Jan-Feb 2014 and about 2,130 bitcoin worth about US$2,000,000 were burned.
Meaning that mastercoin started with more than X2 marketcap than counterparty.]

[Ola]

I think its important to only use CHA as the only base currency...concentrate on making a fast, easily accesible interface and users will naturally acquire CHA to participate...diluting the demand for CHA by incorporating BTC is a mistake you are about to repeat already made by the Counterparty devs.  Look at their awesome innovation yet compare their market capitalization to Mastercoin's

This is actually a bad example because right now if you look at coinmarketcap Counterparty has bigger ROI than Mastercoin.

[You need to remember that mastercoin crowd sell was in July-Aug sending a total of about 5000 bitcoins worth about US$500,000 at the time. Counterparty burning bitcoins was in Jan-Feb 2014 and about 2,130 bitcoin worth about US$2,000,000 were burned.
Meaning that mastercoin started with more than X2 marketcap than counterparty.]

it might not be the best example and I can admit that...all the points you stated are true, I know I was there at the very first exodus send with mastercoin....It still doesn't take away from the point that I am trying to make:

Incorporating BTC will bring about the reduction in demand for CHA which will directly affect price and growth. Concentrate on each of use and enhance the games, increase the odds of wining (like you did), provide awesome prizes to winners ...i offered 300 CHA somewhere...a donation for this can be setup.

[newpeled1986]

It still doesn't take away from the point that I am trying to make:

Incorporating BTC will bring about the reduction in demand for CHA which will directly affect price and growth. Concentrate on each of use and enhance the games, increase the odds of wining (like you did), provide awesome prizes to winners ...i offered 300 CHA somewhere...a donation for this can be setup.

Your point is important and I am sure the Devs will take it into account seriously.

I think it's hard to predict the outcome of such a move because it might bring new players to gamble with chancecoin wallet and exposure which is much needed at this point.
I am sure that afterwards we can find ways to incentivize the use of chancecoin over btc. (like reduce house edge for chancecoin and the ability to be the "gambler" and the "house" and probably more innovative ideas).

In my opinion I agree that the user experience (speed of bets etc) and flow (the process a new user has to go from the moment he hears about chancecoin until he start gambling) still needs a lot of work to get to were PrimeDice is, and because the Devs time is limited I think this should be given higher priority.

p.s: Ola its nice to see you here, I have a lot of respect to you and hope you will continue to be more active member in chancecoin community.

[magician]

It still doesn't take away from the point that I am trying to make:

Incorporating BTC will bring about the reduction in demand for CHA which will directly affect price and growth. Concentrate on each of use and enhance the games, increase the odds of wining (like you did), provide awesome prizes to winners ...i offered 300 CHA somewhere...a donation for this can be setup.

Your point is important and I am sure the Devs will take it into account seriously.

I think it's hard to predict the outcome of such a move because it might bring new players to gamble with chancecoin wallet and exposure which is much needed at this point.
I am sure that afterwards we can find ways to incentivize the use of chancecoin over btc. (like reduce house edge for chancecoin and the ability to be the "gambler" and the "house" and probably more innovative ideas).

In my opinion I agree that the user experience (speed of bets etc) and flow (the process a new user has to go from the moment he hears about chancecoin until he start gambling) still needs a lot of work to get to were PrimeDice is, and because the Devs time is limited I think this should be given higher priority.

p.s: Ola its nice to see you here, I have a lot of respect to you and hope you will continue to be more active member in chancecoin community.

My thought is that incorporating BTC the way we're planning to do it will increase demand for CHA because every BTC wagered will be instantly turned into CHA by buying it at the market price (in this casino liquidity book). It's just a way to make it easier for people to participate if they're starting with a wallet that only has BTC or are used to using centralized BTC casinos and aren't willing to make the jump if it involves buying CHA on an exchange first and doing some footwork to get started.

As for your point on user experience, I definitely hear your point. I've tried Primedice and Just-Dice back when they were still operating with BTC. They're lucky that they don't have to maintain the decentralized aspect -- it certainly is easier to make the betting instant when the casino is centralized. That being said, I do think it's important for betting to be faster than it is now. We're almost certainly going to do one of the following:

 - Move to a faster blockchain.
 - Make our own faster blockchain.
 - Invent some new solution that lets gamblers resolve bets rapidly offline, like some kind of electronic choose your own adventure scratch card.

Magician

[FandangledGizmo]

The next version has a fix so transactions will go through pretty much instantly. We'll work on transaction chaining as well. Alternative faster blockchains are still on the table.

great news!

If we set house edge to -2% and people wager 500,000 CHA for an expected house loss of 10,000 CHA, I'd call that a huge win for Chancecoin. The theoretical price should decrease by about 2%, but the price should really skyrocket after that kind of gambling volume.

I agree with the Devs on this - I like this creative thinking.

But truth be told I think something like this can have an impact on gambling volume but there is still more work to do on the user experience side.
Devs if you still haven't tried https://primedice.com/ please do so - It is important to check out our competition.
You will see the big difference in the speed of bets and flow.
Right now it is hard to bring new gamblers to chancecoin, its to much of a "hassle" for them.
Is it possible to have a chancecoin wallet like counterwallet (deterministic electrum wallet)?

How often can you make a bet in your system?

If you gave me a 2% edge, I'd make $1000 bets expecting to make $20 on average per bet. If I could make a bet every 15 seconds, I'd be making $80 a minute on average from you guys.  Over the course of just 1 Day, I'd be expected to take $115 000 out of your coin, in exchange for only putting in a meagre $1-20K of my own money into your coin at the beginning to bankroll it, depending on how I fared with variance (with 2% odds in my favour, 100k bankroll and $1000 bets then http://www.albionresearch.com/kelly/default.php)

Is the above right?

[magician]

The next version has a fix so transactions will go through pretty much instantly. We'll work on transaction chaining as well. Alternative faster blockchains are still on the table.

great news!

If we set house edge to -2% and people wager 500,000 CHA for an expected house loss of 10,000 CHA, I'd call that a huge win for Chancecoin. The theoretical price should decrease by about 2%, but the price should really skyrocket after that kind of gambling volume.

I agree with the Devs on this - I like this creative thinking.

But truth be told I think something like this can have an impact on gambling volume but there is still more work to do on the user experience side.
Devs if you still haven't tried https://primedice.com/ please do so - It is important to check out our competition.
You will see the big difference in the speed of bets and flow.
Right now it is hard to bring new gamblers to chancecoin, its to much of a "hassle" for them.
Is it possible to have a chancecoin wallet like counterwallet (deterministic electrum wallet)?

How often can you make a bet in your system?

If you gave me a 2% edge, I'd make $1000 bets expecting to make $20 on average per bet. If I could make a bet every 15 seconds, I'd be making $80 a minute on average from you guys.  Over the course of just 1 Day, I'd be expected to take $115 000 out of your coin, in exchange for only putting in a meagre $1-20K of my own money into your coin at the beginning to bankroll it, depending on how I fared with variance (with 2% odds in my favour, 100k bankroll and $1000 bets then http://www.albionresearch.com/kelly/default.php)

Is the above right?

We would have a limit to prevent this (probably a maximum total wagered with negative edge per block or per 100 blocks). The point is to encourage gambling, not to let someone take down the house.

[FandangledGizmo]

The next version has a fix so transactions will go through pretty much instantly. We'll work on transaction chaining as well. Alternative faster blockchains are still on the table.

great news!

If we set house edge to -2% and people wager 500,000 CHA for an expected house loss of 10,000 CHA, I'd call that a huge win for Chancecoin. The theoretical price should decrease by about 2%, but the price should really skyrocket after that kind of gambling volume.

I agree with the Devs on this - I like this creative thinking.

But truth be told I think something like this can have an impact on gambling volume but there is still more work to do on the user experience side.
Devs if you still haven't tried https://primedice.com/ please do so - It is important to check out our competition.
You will see the big difference in the speed of bets and flow.
Right now it is hard to bring new gamblers to chancecoin, its to much of a "hassle" for them.
Is it possible to have a chancecoin wallet like counterwallet (deterministic electrum wallet)?

How often can you make a bet in your system?

If you gave me a 2% edge, I'd make $1000 bets expecting to make $20 on average per bet. If I could make a bet every 15 seconds, I'd be making $80 a minute on average from you guys.  Over the course of just 1 Day, I'd be expected to take $115 000 out of your coin, in exchange for only putting in a meagre $1-20K of my own money into your coin at the beginning to bankroll it, depending on how I fared with variance (with 2% odds in my favour, 100k bankroll and $1000 bets then http://www.albionresearch.com/kelly/default.php)

Is the above right?

We would have a limit to prevent this (probably a maximum total wagered with negative edge per block or per 100 blocks). The point is to encourage gambling, not to let someone take down the house.

Cool. Yeah when I first read it, it sounded like a good marketing idea, until I realised even a small edge can take down the house quite quickly. If you are able to prevent someone from doing that it could be quite good.

[Ola]

It still doesn't take away from the point that I am trying to make:

Incorporating BTC will bring about the reduction in demand for CHA which will directly affect price and growth. Concentrate on each of use and enhance the games, increase the odds of wining (like you did), provide awesome prizes to winners ...i offered 300 CHA somewhere...a donation for this can be setup.

Your point is important and I am sure the Devs will take it into account seriously.

I think it's hard to predict the outcome of such a move because it might bring new players to gamble with chancecoin wallet and exposure which is much needed at this point.
I am sure that afterwards we can find ways to incentivize the use of chancecoin over btc. (like reduce house edge for chancecoin and the ability to be the "gambler" and the "house" and probably more innovative ideas).

In my opinion I agree that the user experience (speed of bets etc) and flow (the process a new user has to go from the moment he hears about chancecoin until he start gambling) still needs a lot of work to get to were PrimeDice is, and because the Devs time is limited I think this should be given higher priority.

p.s: Ola its nice to see you here, I have a lot of respect to you and hope you will continue to be more active member in chancecoin community.

agreed if any innovative idea that enables btc use but still keeps demand up for CHA will be great to see. Someone just had to say it before any mistake is made which would in turn take an enormous amount of time to fix...

User experience and "flow" plus marketing are definitely limiting exposure right now...those should be priority over anything else.

is this peled1986 ? what happened to your other account?

[Ola]

It still doesn't take away from the point that I am trying to make:

Incorporating BTC will bring about the reduction in demand for CHA which will directly affect price and growth. Concentrate on each of use and enhance the games, increase the odds of wining (like you did), provide awesome prizes to winners ...i offered 300 CHA somewhere...a donation for this can be setup.

Your point is important and I am sure the Devs will take it into account seriously.

I think it's hard to predict the outcome of such a move because it might bring new players to gamble with chancecoin wallet and exposure which is much needed at this point.
I am sure that afterwards we can find ways to incentivize the use of chancecoin over btc. (like reduce house edge for chancecoin and the ability to be the "gambler" and the "house" and probably more innovative ideas).

In my opinion I agree that the user experience (speed of bets etc) and flow (the process a new user has to go from the moment he hears about chancecoin until he start gambling) still needs a lot of work to get to were PrimeDice is, and because the Devs time is limited I think this should be given higher priority.

p.s: Ola its nice to see you here, I have a lot of respect to you and hope you will continue to be more active member in chancecoin community.

My thought is that incorporating BTC the way we're planning to do it will increase demand for CHA because every BTC wagered will be instantly turned into CHA by buying it at the market price (in this casino liquidity book). It's just a way to make it easier for people to participate if they're starting with a wallet that only has BTC or are used to using centralized BTC casinos and aren't willing to make the jump if it involves buying CHA on an exchange first and doing some footwork to get started.

As for your point on user experience, I definitely hear your point. I've tried Primedice and Just-Dice back when they were still operating with BTC. They're lucky that they don't have to maintain the decentralized aspect -- it certainly is easier to make the betting instant when the casino is centralized. That being said, I do think it's important for betting to be faster than it is now. We're almost certainly going to do one of the following:

 - Move to a faster blockchain.
 - Make our own faster blockchain.
 - Invent some new solution that lets gamblers resolve bets rapidly offline, like some kind of electronic choose your own adventure scratch card.

Magician

- Move to a faster blockchain.

I want to invite you to NXT...as a matter of fact you would get a lot of exposure from this move as nxt is already establishing relationships with more formal business entities..for example, Gocoin will integrate NXT within the next couple of weeks...you will instantly gain a host of supporters and rabid promoters for your innovation...there are to many positive developments with NXT at the moment to list, But I think you should consider it strongly..

and oh vitalik buterin just confirmed that ethereum's version to proof of stake is basically what NXT had been working on and testing (parts of transparent forging)...which makes nxt one of the grandfathers of innovation in this space..get the lowdown here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/29yyjm/proofofstake_and_distributed_consensus_are/

[eli_lyd1]

It still doesn't take away from the point that I am trying to make:

Incorporating BTC will bring about the reduction in demand for CHA which will directly affect price and growth. Concentrate on each of use and enhance the games, increase the odds of wining (like you did), provide awesome prizes to winners ...i offered 300 CHA somewhere...a donation for this can be setup.

Your point is important and I am sure the Devs will take it into account seriously.

I think it's hard to predict the outcome of such a move because it might bring new players to gamble with chancecoin wallet and exposure which is much needed at this point.
I am sure that afterwards we can find ways to incentivize the use of chancecoin over btc. (like reduce house edge for chancecoin and the ability to be the "gambler" and the "house" and probably more innovative ideas).

In my opinion I agree that the user experience (speed of bets etc) and flow (the process a new user has to go from the moment he hears about chancecoin until he start gambling) still needs a lot of work to get to were PrimeDice is, and because the Devs time is limited I think this should be given higher priority.

p.s: Ola its nice to see you here, I have a lot of respect to you and hope you will continue to be more active member in chancecoin community.

My thought is that incorporating BTC the way we're planning to do it will increase demand for CHA because every BTC wagered will be instantly turned into CHA by buying it at the market price (in this casino liquidity book). It's just a way to make it easier for people to participate if they're starting with a wallet that only has BTC or are used to using centralized BTC casinos and aren't willing to make the jump if it involves buying CHA on an exchange first and doing some footwork to get started.

As for your point on user experience, I definitely hear your point. I've tried Primedice and Just-Dice back when they were still operating with BTC. They're lucky that they don't have to maintain the decentralized aspect -- it certainly is easier to make the betting instant when the casino is centralized. That being said, I do think it's important for betting to be faster than it is now. We're almost certainly going to do one of the following:

 - Move to a faster blockchain.
 - Make our own faster blockchain.
 - Invent some new solution that lets gamblers resolve bets rapidly offline, like some kind of electronic choose your own adventure scratch card.

Magician

Maybe qora will be a good choice. MOve to qora's blockchain.

[huxdy]

I really like CHA

Now it needs to accelerate the speed of response

The problem often encountered when the update blockchain

[Spratan]

I wouldn't want to depend on only one altcoin. Nxt or Dogecoin can still disappear or be replaced. They are only 6 months old. Auroracoin or Quarks were 3rd months ago.
Their future should not influence CHA future. And 95% of people wont't play CHA if you choose a competing coin.

Silly question : Is there a way to use multiple blockchains, depending on speed or min-max levels ? In "real life", some games are instant and others are daily or weekly like lotteries ?

[newpeled1986]

- Move to a faster blockchain.
 - Make our own faster blockchain.
 - Invent some new solution that lets gamblers resolve bets rapidly offline, like some kind of electronic choose your own adventure scratch card.

any of these options is better the current situation.
Make our own faster blockchain / Invent some new solution - sounds very interesting.

What about making a web-wallet like counterwallet? is that in your plans?

[Venetian]

I wouldn't want to depend on only one altcoin. Nxt or Dogecoin can still disappear or be replaced. They are only 6 months old. Auroracoin or Quarks were 3rd months ago.
Their future should not influence CHA future. And 95% of people wont't play CHA if you choose a competing coin.

Silly question : Is there a way to use multiple blockchains, depending on speed or min-max levels ? In "real life", some games are instant and others are daily or weekly like lotteries ?

We've had some discussions regarding using another blockchains such as DOGE or NXT to speed up the betting process. This solution is actually much more cumbersome than it looks from a user experience standpoint. Many new users have to do the following:

1. Transfer BTC to an exchange, let's say poloniex
1. Buy DOGE/BTC on Poloniex
2. Transfer DOGE to the chancecoin app
3. Make bets using DOGE
4. Transfer DOGE back to Poloniex
5. Sell DOGE/BTC on Poloniex

The process of acquiring this other currency makes it harder for a new user to try out the Chancecoin app, which is the first and probably the most important step in user acquisition. An upcoming change that allows users to bet directly with BTC (automatically converting wagered BTC to CHA via a liquidity pool in the process) will provide a one-click betting solution and get rid of this hassle. Also, to address the issue of the slow betting process, we have another interesting idea we are currently experimenting that could make it a lot faster for making a few bets in a row. Stay tuned!

Venetian

[TheLotusPod]

What day did this coin launch on

[voldemort628]

What day did this coin launch on

in 2 weeks. stay tuned!

[dongle]

Not just to say, we must made some really things.

[helloge]

I wouldn't want to depend on only one altcoin. Nxt or Dogecoin can still disappear or be replaced. They are only 6 months old. Auroracoin or Quarks were 3rd months ago.
Their future should not influence CHA future. And 95% of people wont't play CHA if you choose a competing coin.

Silly question : Is there a way to use multiple blockchains, depending on speed or min-max levels ? In "real life", some games are instant and others are daily or weekly like lotteries ?

We've had some discussions regarding using another blockchains such as DOGE or NXT to speed up the betting process. This solution is actually much more cumbersome than it looks from a user experience standpoint. Many new users have to do the following:

1. Transfer BTC to an exchange, let's say poloniex
1. Buy DOGE/BTC on Poloniex
2. Transfer DOGE to the chancecoin app
3. Make bets using DOGE
4. Transfer DOGE back to Poloniex
5. Sell DOGE/BTC on Poloniex

The process of acquiring this other currency makes it harder for a new user to try out the Chancecoin app, which is the first and probably the most important step in user acquisition. An upcoming change that allows users to bet directly with BTC (automatically converting wagered BTC to CHA via a liquidity pool in the process) will provide a one-click betting solution and get rid of this hassle. Also, to address the issue of the slow betting process, we have another interesting idea we are currently experimenting that could make it a lot faster for making a few bets in a row. Stay tuned!

Venetian

agree with the new another blockchains such as DOGE or NXT to promot the speed,
betting need more quickly process result and do the next one.