Will energy consumption be Bitcoins downfall ?

[Fortify]

Just as people moved from gasoline powered cars to electric will investors also move from bitcoin to ecofriendly alts?

I remember reading the other day that the Visa/Mastercard type payment networks collectively use only 20% of the energy consumption by Bitcoin. They are also engaged in exponentially more transactions every day - tens of millions. The fees associated with Bitcoin tend to cost more than comparative credit/debit card networks and ironically the time that people want to liquidate holdings (a stampede to the exit) can take a hefty chunk from a small scale "investor" due to fluctuating costs. At that point, the main positive working for bitcoin is the anonymity factor - which is slowly being diminished as retail or institutional investors gravitate towards fewer exchanges. Governments only like a certain amount of anonymity when it comes to the money supply, because too much can be abused by criminal actors, so this might lead to future regulatory crackdowns. It's getting harder to paint a hopeful future for Bitcoin, but as you say - others might be able to at least be more "green".

[mfertma]

No more so than electricity consumption has been the downfall of banks, investment banks, gold mines, and any other financial system.

Imagine how much electricity is used in all of the banks globally? Even if we simply account for clearing and settlement. Bitcoin bypasses so many arcane processes. In an apples-to-apples comparison, I'm certain Bitcoin beats the banks by many a KWh!

[Karartma1]

I'm going to puke with all these threads discussing the fricking environmental problem that bitcoin might cause.
It's a free market, anyone can buy all the electricity available to do whatever they think it's best. The real problem, and we know it, is that the whole world still runs on fossils.
In a million years the Sun is gonna die and it's gonna kill us all anyway.

[Swordsoffreedom]

Elon (A Shitcoin shiller) Musk is shilling with meme coin and making FUD with Bitcoin. Not that coal energy is being used in mining these days, even before he was invested in Bitcoin, fossil fuel was used for mining. I believe that Bitcoin is more Eco-Friendly than his SpaceX & Starlink.
Only new investors are the main victim of Elon's FUD, that's why panic selling is ongoing but Pro trader & hodlers are taking the opportunities to buy at deep.

[Gatorelf]

First you are wrong, energy is my business.

Glad to hear it.  Then tell me please, what is the total worldwide energy expenditure right now behind the worlds leading alternative system (U.S. Dollars)?
Please include ALL energy that would stop being used if the Dollar (or other fiat currencies) didn't exist. Include the minting of the physical currency, the securing and transporting of that physical currency, the secret service effort to prevent counterfeiting and fraud, the banking system, vaults, branches, ATMs, tellers, all the fuel spent on all the vehicles by all the employees getting to and from work, all the databases and computers for storing balances all over the world, the networks needed for inter-bank transfers, the consumer level electronic payment systems, card readers, routers, security systems, etc.  While you're at it, please consider the amount of energy the U.S. military uses in its efforts to make sure that its currency keeps its status as the reserve currency of the world.

Once you've calculated all that, come back and compare it for me to the costs of Bitcoin's network.

Some BTC is mined from hydro power solar power etc but the vast majority comes right off the grid worldwide. That means fossil fuel plants make up the bulk of the load.

Bitcoin mining is driven by profits.  If you want mining to use more eco-friendly sources of energy, make them cheaper.  As eco friendly electricity becomes cheaper, bitcoin mining will automatically switch over to more eco-friendly sources.

What I can tell you is its topped out now unless the POW evolves into less energy demand I see it going back to $10k...

Heard this at $1, $10, $100, $1000, and now $10,000.  Picking an arbitrary number close to the current number on any given day and saying it "topped out" at that number is just silly.  $10,000 is no more of a magic number than $1000 or $100,000.

Furthermore, let's imagine for a moment that you are correct. That would be a GOOD thing.  Once price discovery ends, volatility dies down, and the exchange rate
stabilizes, it will be MUCH easier for merchants to price things in bitcoins and for consumers to understand what that price means in terms of value.  An eventual stabilized exchange rate that adjusts over time due mostly to deflation is the end goal.

so you may just have to get over that.  

Nothing to get over.  I'd be thrilled that the price stabilized and Bitcoin's volatility stops being a common complaint.  It doesn't change the fact that Bitcoin mining can not and will not be changed away from Proof of Work.

great comments from you all, let my try to answer some... On the WW use of power its not a an engineering banter on the dynamics of BTC power consumption. Its about what the investor will buy.

This whole conversation is about demand. I want to see BTC become much more stable myself but at this time we see how vulnerable all crypto's are to comments and social media running with fear and or hype. When I say I think its topped out at $60k IMO it has unless something changes in the crypto world that causes a huge demand just in BTC.  Like I say I watch BTC market cap closely ( its share of all crypto value). ETH recently made a huge jump in that market share. Doge came in and showed what a shit coin can do from hype sucking up $70B.  So as money trickles back into crypto's and lets say we hit $3T in the coming months it will be interesting to see what % BTC has captured.       

[Gatorelf]

Just as people moved from gasoline powered cars to electric will investors also move from bitcoin to ecofriendly alts?

I remember reading the other day that the Visa/Mastercard type payment networks collectively use only 20% of the energy consumption by Bitcoin. They are also engaged in exponentially more transactions every day - tens of millions. The fees associated with Bitcoin tend to cost more than comparative credit/debit card networks and ironically the time that people want to liquidate holdings (a stampede to the exit) can take a hefty chunk from a small scale "investor" due to fluctuating costs. At that point, the main positive working for bitcoin is the anonymity factor - which is slowly being diminished as retail or institutional investors gravitate towards fewer exchanges. Governments only like a certain amount of anonymity when it comes to the money supply, because too much can be abused by criminal actors, so this might lead to future regulatory crackdowns. It's getting harder to paint a hopeful future for Bitcoin, but as you say - others might be able to at least be more "green".

right ! Some not all, when they have a choice of BTC or NANO etc will use the more greenwise coin. They are out there, just like the Apple followers that wont touch a damn Android if it half the price lol. If we would just go to Thorium based reactors (SMR's) to power 75% of the grid we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Coal fired plants have the highest mortality rate to Kilowatt output than all other power producers combined. Nuclear and Hydro have the lowest by far.

Yeh those regulations have a chunk of my money tide up in a Japan Liquid account. I most likely will never see again unless the regulations change again.

[mk4]

You skipped right over the question, I know BTC is POW and always has been. What I can tell you is its topped out now unless the POW evolves into less energy demand I see it going back to $10k... so you may just have to get over that. 

So Bitcoin is going back down to $10k because of the increasing energy usage? That doesn't make sense at all. If anything, the increasing hashrate actually means that there's actual demand. And yet it will crash back down to $10k because of it?

ADA, Bitgreen BITG, XCH, Nano and XLM. Its not that these coins don't use power its the amount they use that's attractive to some and may become a factor for investors.

Might as well use PayPal tbh.

[DannyHamilton]

Consider this...

The amount of energy that is used Globally for bitcoin mining is DIRECTLY proportional to the product of the average exchange rate of bitcoins multiplied by the current block reward.

If the exchange rate goes up, the miners have more money per block mined to pay for more electricity.  If the block reward goes up, the miners have more money per block mined to pay for more electricity.  If the block reward goes down, the miners have less money per block mined to pay for electricity. If the exchange rate goes down, the miners have less money per block mined to pay for electricity.

Furthermore, approximately every 4 years, the block subsidy is cut in half.  It is currently 6.25 BTC per block, but in a few short years, it will be only 3.125 BTC per block and 4 years after that, it will be 1.5625 BTC per block.

If nothing else changes (the exchange rate stays pretty much the same, and the transaction fees per block stay pretty much the same, and the cost of electricity per kWh stays pretty much the same, and the ASIC efficiency stays pretty much the same), then we should see the amount of energy used for mining cut in half in a few years, and cut in half again 4 years after that.  So, by design, Bitcoin WILL become more efficient over time.

Now, if the exchange rate increases, the energy usage will increase proportionally, but from what you're saying that isn't a concern.

[Gatorelf]

yes I understand all that and appreciate the replies, I am not a novice btw I have been buying, trading and investing in BTC and Alts for years.  I just think the new money coming into the cryptocurrency world will be heavier to the Alts than the past and of that more going to greener currencies.  Could be 100% wrong but that's what I am thinking moving forward as an investor.

[bitterguy28]

Just as people moved from gasoline powered cars to electric will investors also move from bitcoin to ecofriendly alts?

yet even if some will turn to Eco friendly coins yet the assurance of their funds will always be for Bitcoin so in chances that alt to be the main won't happen at any cost.

Downfall will never come for Bitcoin , that will never happen in the next 5-10 years.

[Shasha80]

Just as people moved from gasoline powered cars to electric will investors also move from bitcoin to ecofriendly alts?

yet even if some will turn to Eco friendly coins yet the assurance of their funds will always be for Bitcoin so in chances that alt to be the main won't happen at any cost.

Downfall will never come for Bitcoin , that will never happen in the next 5-10 years.

The problem of energy consumption will not make Bitcoin downfall, because the trust in Bitcoin is already very strong. Even if ecofriendly alts appear,
it is still impossible to make Bitcoin replaceable. Because Bitcoin is too strong, many altcoins created to replace Bitcoin have failed. I think at least for
the next 5-10 years Bitcoin is still the best and will not be replaced by any coins. So now it is very safe to choose Bitcoin as a long-term investment.

[TangentC]

Just as people moved from gasoline powered cars to electric will investors also move from bitcoin to ecofriendly alts?

Yep,

but bitcoiners don't want to hear that.
Bitcoiners want to hear that bitcoin energy waste is divine, and that bitcoin should get 1st access to the energy grid,
even if poor people freeze due to increased energy prices or people get sick from air pollution from burning excessive amounts of coal.

Bitcoiners are going to make every excuse in the book, look at everyone else they use more power than BTC, they cause more pollution than BTC. Bitcoiners problem is this , those other industries are regulated already, and those other industries are distributed enough that their drain on the energy grids are manageable.

What bitcoin miners do is within a short time frame increase the strain on an energy grid almost to point of a new small country moving in, but instead of decades so the energy producers have time to ratchet up production, they increase the strain within 2-3 years.

Bitcoin PoW mining is completely unsustainable in it's current growth pattern.
But bitcoiners don't want to hear that.

So here is the question for Bitcoiners,
Since Bitcoiners refuse a switch to PoS, what are the plans, when the majority of civilized countries ban all bitcoin mining?
Do Bitcoiners have a hidden island where they can power all Bitcoin PoW mining with a volcano?
Are Bitcoiners hiding a new fusion device for free unlimited energy?

My guess is they don't have an answer for that either, just it won't happen because bitcoin is great.

IMO, What I see happening is that at some point most countries ban bitcoin due to concerns over it carbon footprint and energy waste.
At some point only poor countries running unstable energy grids will allow bitcoin miners, and then the bitcoin network itself becomes extremely unreliable, and this translates into a spiraling price decrease verses fiat, then even the most ardent bitcoiners, will begin to question why don't we move to PoS, I mean look at the PoS coins Cardano & Ethereum, which are now #1 & #2 on the Coin Market cap it worked great for them.

That is timeline, I see playing out, how long it takes to reach it depends on how fast the banning btc increases and how soon the major investors recognize PoS is the future and PoW is a failed tech.

But as I said , Bitcoiners don't want to hear any of that.  

[Fundamentals Of]

No, I don't think energy consumption will bring down Bitcoin. Energy is necessary in all things. Fiat consumes more energy than Bitcoin. And most importantly, Bitcoin is now consuming much of its energy from renewable sources. Bitcoin is safe because it consumes the amount of energy it is currently consuming. Just like fiat with all its vaults and banks and other security measures.

All these talks of energy consumption have already been sufficiently responded to. Elon is ignorant. Elon is bringing up an old issue. The problem is that people are riding on it as if it is a new issue Bitcoin critics raise.

[Xinarae*]

I don't think so energy consumption will be the downfall of bitcoin when the price of bitcoin goes down it goes up again. Not just for bitcoin but other things are falling and rising more and more over time bitcoin costs a lot of energy to use but long term investments can be very lucrative the fiat currency consumes energy but it is controlled by the government which falls and rises. Bitcoin will not go to altcoin the demand will increase as the days go by investors will not be disappointed wait for the price to rise again.

[zanezane]

If we don't address the issue, I am sure that these problem on energy consumption is going to bore more problems in the future that is going to really cause the downfall of bitcoin market as we know it.

[KonstantinosM]

no

[Leviathan.007]

Energy consumption can not be the reason for bitcoin downfall. At lest, not in long and mid term. Regarding the consumption, according to many sources, the energy consumption of bitcoin mining is much lower than fiat energy consumption. Also, I believe time after time the bitcoin miners will need to use better devices and the solar panels to provide the energy instead of using fossil fuels, that's how the problem can be solved in long term. Generally, people who say bitcoin is consuming too much energy don't have enough information about it or maybe than have some other goals by saying such things.

[Gatorelf]

I think some are missing my point... 

There are lots of consumers that Love the Hummer,  yet instead of buying the gas guzzling Hummer the conscious is more at ease with an Electric Truck.
Forget all the engineered logic as the world of average consumers doesn't operate on it. I also am not saying bitcoin wont be around if it continues on its way as is,
 only that it will lose market share and quite possibly not be King. 

[datguyian]

Just as people moved from gasoline powered cars to electric will investors also move from bitcoin to ecofriendly alts?

I remember reading the other day that the Visa/Mastercard type payment networks collectively use only 20% of the energy consumption by Bitcoin. They are also engaged in exponentially more transactions every day - tens of millions. The fees associated with Bitcoin tend to cost more than comparative credit/debit card networks and ironically the time that people want to liquidate holdings (a stampede to the exit) can take a hefty chunk from a small scale "investor" due to fluctuating costs. At that point, the main positive working for bitcoin is the anonymity factor - which is slowly being diminished as retail or institutional investors gravitate towards fewer exchanges. Governments only like a certain amount of anonymity when it comes to the money supply, because too much can be abused by criminal actors, so this might lead to future regulatory crackdowns. It's getting harder to paint a hopeful future for Bitcoin, but as you say - others might be able to at least be more "green".

What's left out of the equation when it comes to the traditional payment system is the technical overhead and all the logistics involved. You can't just say Bitcoin consumes electricity and this is how much, and the traditional banking system doesn't mine anything so it does not consume any electricity. I am pretty sure that a sharp analysis of all processes involved in finally making the payment in the supermarket happen with your cards, people would be surprised how much energy goes into those processes.

[mk4]

I think some are missing my point...  

There are lots of consumers that Love the Hummer,  yet instead of buying the gas guzzling Hummer the conscious is more at ease with an Electric Truck.
Forget all the engineered logic as the world of average consumers doesn't operate on it.

Sure some people indeed make such decisions with vehicles, but they're a huge minority. But take note that it's not really that much of a good analogy. Whether a certain miner uses renewable energy or not, it really won't affect the ability of the bitcoiner to use bitcoin. Whereas people who use EVs might be monetarily incentivized.

I also am not saying bitcoin wont be around if it continues on its way as is,
 only that it will lose market share and quite possibly not be King.  

Bitcoin losing marketshare has always been a possibility and has been fluctuating a lot since forever(see: dominance metric). But Bitcoin not being king because of the energy usage? Lol no.