Why I wouldn't buy Ledger Nano S ever again?

[dkbit98]

Good question asked by one guy from ledger reddit channel regarding broken ledger nano S screen, something that is happening much more often than you may think.
If something like this happened to your device it's making it almost unusable and only thing you could do is buying new display replacement.
Anyway, do you think word #14 in this case is climb or clump (both of them can be found in bip39 word list)?


https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/t62b8a/does_anyone_know_what_this_word_is_setting_up_but/

[PrivacyG]

They seem to have added a deliberate delay between button presses. It's noticeable also when you first connect the device and enter your PIN to unlock it. I remember reading about something like that in the past, but I can't find any source now to confirm it and I don't remember what reasons they gave for doing that. Have you checked in the settings menu if there is an option to speed it up? I will have to generate a new BTC addy later today so I will take a look myself and report back if I find something.

I know this reply comes a few months later but they did not add an option to remove the delay.  This sucks.  Imagine Windows suddenly imposed a delay between key presses that you can not change.

In fact, things got even worse.  With the latest firmware updates they also added this 'hold both keys to open Settings'.  It now takes about 2 seconds to pop up the Settings menu.  So now you have a delay between button presses and it takes seconds to access the Settings menu.  They even added this warning thing for the Passphrase setup.  So if before I was able to go from entering the pin to the Passphrase setup menu in half a minute, now it takes at least 2 minutes to do it.  I do not mind the Passphrase warning, it is good for new users but I think a 'never show again' thing would have been handy?  What is next?  A system UI overhaul with 5 second ads that you can not close every time you want to open an app?

It seems very obvious to me now that with every update they are trying to make us move on to a 'better' product of theirs.  The effect it had on me is exactly the opposite though, I have moved everything to a fully open source hardware wallet now.  Congrats, Ledger!  You only lost another customer.

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Regards,
PrivacyG

[Pmalek]

Anyway, do you think word #14 in this case is climb or clump (both of them can be found in bip39 word list)?

Between 'climb' and 'clump', I think it can only be 'climb'. There isn't enough space for all of the curves of the letters 'um' if they are preceded by an 'l'.

With the latest firmware updates they also added this 'hold both keys to open Settings'. It now takes about 2 seconds to pop up the Settings menu.

The hold both keys for the settings menu feature was introduced with firmware version 2.0.0, not 2.1.0.

[m2017]

Good question asked by one guy from ledger reddit channel regarding broken ledger nano S screen, something that is happening much more often than you may think.
If something like this happened to your device it's making it almost unusable and only thing you could do is buying new display replacement.
Anyway, do you think word #14 in this case is climb or clump (both of them can be found in bip39 word list)?


https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/t62b8a/does_anyone_know_what_this_word_is_setting_up_but/

I am inclined to the version that this word is "climb". There is too little space between characters for the word "clump". Otherwise, the distance between the 2nd and 4th letter would be greater.

In general, Pmalek expressed the same thing:

Between 'climb' and 'clump', I think it can only be 'climb'. There isn't enough space for all of the curves of the letters 'um' if they are preceded by an 'l'.

If only one word became unreadable (which I doubt), then could try to enter both variants of words into the passphrase. One of them would definitely fit. In this case, I would start with word "climb".

[dkbit98]

If only one word became unreadable (which I doubt), then could try to enter both variants of words into the passphrase. One of them would definitely fit. In this case, I would start with word "climb".

I also think the hidden word was climb... now I feel like I am in ledger tv quiz.
This was not the problem with only one word... display is fried and unusable (common issue for ledger nono S) so all words are missing some parts, but some of them are easier to read than others.
Whatever hardware wallet you own it would be a good idea to have one back-up wallet (maybe even from different manufacturer), just in case you need to send your coins quickly.

[Pmalek]

Whatever hardware wallet you own it would be a good idea to have one back-up wallet (maybe even from different manufacturer), just in case you need to send your coins quickly.

It's also not a bad idea to have a spare display either, especially since they are not that expensive and cost only a few dollars. They are easier to replace than I thought and literally anyone can do it after watching a 2-minute YouTube video. The thing that people need to remember though is that you void your warranty if you physically open your Ledger HW. And according to their support, they will replace faulty devices even if the 2-year warranty period expires. That's not the case if you open it though.

[PrivacyG]

The thing that people need to remember though is that you void your warranty if you physically open your Ledger HW. And according to their support, they will replace faulty devices even if the 2-year warranty period expires. That's not the case if you open it though.

Is it even recommended to send them back to them for faulty device replacement though?  I would not trust them handling my Ledger.  Particularly with a closed source component they can mess with which may have easily stored information I definitely would not want it to.

Would rather replace the display by myself and void the warranty instead.  Or just buy a new one but my suggestion is, do not trust strangers, particularly Ledger employees, with your Hardware Wallet on their hands.

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Regards,
PrivacyG

[m2017]

The thing that people need to remember though is that you void your warranty if you physically open your Ledger HW. And according to their support, they will replace faulty devices even if the 2-year warranty period expires. That's not the case if you open it though.

Is it even recommended to send them back to them for faulty device replacement though?  I would not trust them handling my Ledger.  Particularly with a closed source component they can mess with which may have easily stored information I definitely would not want it to.

Would rather replace the display by myself and void the warranty instead.  Or just buy a new one but my suggestion is, do not trust strangers, particularly Ledger employees, with your Hardware Wallet on their hands.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

Well, I fully admit, the option of sending back a device with a broken display. Only I would first transfer the entire balance to another working device. Broken display prevents you from doing this? But you still have seed-phrase, don't you?  So, it's quite possible and you don't have to worry that Ledger will get critical information for you.

[NeuroticFish]

Is it even recommended to send them back to them for faulty device replacement though?

First set up a cold storage (with properly checking the new seed and addresses, with proper backups of the seed) and transfer your funds there.
And obviously also reset the HW (enter wrong PIN 3 times). Maybe even reinitialize it for an empty wallet and reinstall at least the bitcoin app.

Then even if they insist in recovering your seed, the most they can get is an old transaction history, if anything.
And yes, then I would not be scared to send it to them for fixing it.

[Pmalek]

Is it even recommended to send them back to them for faulty device replacement though?  I would not trust them handling my Ledger.  Particularly with a closed source component they can mess with which may have easily stored information I definitely would not want it to.

You can't reset the device to factory settings with a completely broken display unfortunately and there is also no option to do that through Ledger Live. What you can do is to restore your Bitcoin wallet from seed on Electrum, for example, and then create a new wallet for temporary use until your hardware wallet is fixed. The old HW seed should never be used again since it was recovered in a hot wallet and has lost its protection.

This can become a lengthy process if you have multiple coins and you need to recover each and everyone of them and move them to a new wallet with a different seed.

And obviously also reset the HW (enter wrong PIN 3 times). Maybe even reinitialize it for an empty wallet and reinstall at least the bitcoin app.

If the display isn't working or you can't see what you are entering, it will become difficult to reset it that way.

[NeuroticFish]

And obviously also reset the HW (enter wrong PIN 3 times). Maybe even reinitialize it for an empty wallet and reinstall at least the bitcoin app.

If the display isn't working or you can't see what you are entering, it will become difficult to reset it that way.

Clearly, it depends how big the damage is. This display is also broken, but you can still see enough for doing a reset.
On the other hand, if it's completely black and one also had really big funds there, indeed, best is scraping the HW and buying another (maybe from another maker), so he doesn't get his funds and home address exposed, even if he moved the funds away.
So it depends... one has to take the decision for himself; all we can do is come with ideas.

[Lucius]

Would rather replace the display by myself and void the warranty instead.  Or just buy a new one but my suggestion is, do not trust strangers, particularly Ledger employees, with your Hardware Wallet on their hands.

I also wouldn’t choose to send my device in for repair, I would try to fix it myself or buy a new one and smash the old one to pieces and throw it in the fire - $50 or $150 is not worth the risk, unless the device has never stored anything of value, or we got it broken.

[dkbit98]

Is it even recommended to send them back to them for faulty device replacement though?  I would not trust them handling my Ledger.  Particularly with a closed source component they can mess with which may have easily stored information I definitely would not want it to.

No it's not recommended, and even if you reset your device who knows what can happen during delivery, not to mention cost of doing that would be much more then you paid for this bad device.
DIY repair and ordering cheap display replacement from China is not that hard, I don't think there is any soldering process at all.
Ordering links and instructions for this can be found in the first post of this topic.
In case device screen is dimmed (one more nono s issue) you can use smartphone camera to see content on ledger display.

[dkbit98]

It is now officially confirmed and announced on Ledger Op3n in NYC, Ledger Nano S last 10 000 devices will be sold next week with NFT, and they are going to stop it's production in favor of new model Ledger Nano S Plus.
I hate to say it again, but I told you this will happen, and they are still wasting time and resources for some NFT crap called Ledger Market (market.ledger.com).
They created some extension for this that sounds a lot like one old scam BitConnet, and it's called LedgerConnect... very similar terrible name  
This means lot's of new sign-ups and new chances to get elected for their new leak and contacted from scammers.
Ledger has become a lot like circus show.

[m2017]

It is now officially confirmed and announced on Ledger Op3n in NYC, Ledger Nano S last 10 000 devices will be sold next week with NFT, and they are going to stop it's production in favor of new model Ledger Nano S Plus.
I hate to say it again, but I told you this will happen, and they are still wasting time and resources for some NFT crap called Ledger Market (market.ledger.com).
They created some extension for this that sounds a lot like one old scam BitConnet, and it's called LedgerConnect... very similar terrible name  
This means lot's of new sign-ups and new chances to get elected for their new leak and contacted from scammers.
Ledger has become a lot like circus show.

It would be nice to add links. Do you mind if I add?

https://www.ledger.com/blog/our-security-products-educational-announcements-at-ledger-op3n-during-nft.nyc

https://www.ledger.com/the-ledger-nano-s-sunset-the-next-phase-in-our-web3-hardware-journey - post on the termination of production and sales Nano S.

Exactly what dkbit98 had repeatedly warned about happened. What will be the next stage? Is it really the termination of support Nano S. Then millions of user devices will turn out to be a useless toy and people will be forced to buy a new HW device again?

It's good that dkbit98 keeps track of updates and reports on changes, otherwise community would not have learned about the latest 10k Nano S devices here soon. There are those who want to buy HW from the latest supply?

[DireWolfM14]

I'm not a fan of the Ledger wallets, whether the Nano S or the Nano X, so I'm not trying to defend them from anything other than misinformation.  To that end, they will be supporting the Nano S for the foreseeable future despite their plans to discontinue production.

This is from the blog post revealing the news:

– If you are a Ledger Nano S owner, the end of the production won’t change anything to your daily experience. Support will continue to be provided and device maintenance will be guaranteed, including for new features, critical bugs and vulnerabilities fixes.

Again, I've been critical of Ledger for various reasons, but I seriously doubt they would leave their Nano S users out in the cold.  That would be worse (for their business) than leaking all their customer info onto the darkweb.  

[NeuroticFish]

This is from the blog post revealing the news:

– If you are a Ledger Nano S owner, the end of the production won’t change anything to your daily experience. Support will continue to be provided and device maintenance will be guaranteed, including for new features, critical bugs and vulnerabilities fixes.

This is not really unexpected since they still want to sell the remaining units and by European laws they have to offer support and warrantee for 2 years, afaik.
The interesting part is that they don't give any time frame, nothing. So since I expect they will sell all remaining Nano S this year, .. let's see what will they say about this at the end of 2024.

On the other hand, Nano S+ is, afaik, basically just a Nano S with bigger memory. If it's like that, keeping it updated may not be a big hassle even after those two years. And if they do it, they'll keep quite a big number of old customers happy.

[dkbit98]

It would be nice to add links. Do you mind if I add?

Sure, and it's not a bad idea to archive this links and save them for future.
If something changes on Ledger website regarding this we can always refer to archives.

I'm not a fan of the Ledger wallets, whether the Nano S or the Nano X, so I'm not trying to defend them from anything other than misinformation.  To that end, they will be supporting the Nano S for the foreseeable future despite their plans to discontinue production.

Judging by their actions in past and how they handled support for many of their discontinued devices (HW.1, Unplugged, Nano, Blue), I am not trusting what they say about support for one more discontinued wallet.
They are wasting time and resources on other useless things, so I am predicting they will create some update that will make model S unusable in reality... maybe with much bigger ledger coin apps.
Excuse could be that they are doing this for ''safety and security'' of their beloved customers 

[NeuroticFish]

so I am predicting they will create some update that will make model S unusable in reality... maybe with much bigger ledger coin apps.
Excuse could be that they are doing this for ''safety and security'' of their beloved customers 

It's obvious that sooner or later that's what will happen. The point is the "when". I hope that it'll happen only after the chip shortage loosen up and SeedSigner becomes more mature too.

[m2017]

I'm not a fan of the Ledger wallets, whether the Nano S or the Nano X, so I'm not trying to defend them from anything other than misinformation.  To that end, they will be supporting the Nano S for the foreseeable future despite their plans to discontinue production.

This is from the blog post revealing the news:

– If you are a Ledger Nano S owner, the end of the production won’t change anything to your daily experience. Support will continue to be provided and device maintenance will be guaranteed, including for new features, critical bugs and vulnerabilities fixes.

Again, I've been critical of Ledger for various reasons, but I seriously doubt they would leave their Nano S users out in the cold.  That would be worse (for their business) than leaking all their customer info onto the darkweb.  

From reading the quote above, I had some thoughts. Ledger guarantees one thing, Ledger guarantees another. They can't even guarantee the safety of the personal data of their customers, not to mention something else.
 
And what if one day Ledger ceases to exist (or just support its devices) and all devices bought by users turn into useless junk. It turns out that at least part of crypto community depends on this company, which is not at all in harmony with the ideas of decentralization. In principle, this applies to any sold devices.

Now I'm going off topic a little a bit and ask a question. Why hasn't crypto community created their own hardware wallet yet? It seems to me that this can be done with due desire, although many difficulties and obstacles will arise.

The idea is the following:
Hardware and software must be separate. The firmware must be open source with the ability to download, as is done with electrun, for example, and the device itself so that it can be bought separately or assembled by yourself. Even better, if the device will have a high level of maintainability and be modular.

As a result, it could look like this:
- bought the device or assembled it youself from the components.
- downloaded the firmware and installed it on the hardware wallet.
- use it.