Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers

[n0nce]

~

On first thought, I really like the idea; it allows to have more compact backups and even combine two backups on one screw.
However, I personally always value legibility over size / anything else. This also applies to stuff like custom crypto (shuffling words, ...) or super strong passphrases. That's because I am convinced the risk of losing funds due to unrecoverable backups is much higher than losing funds by being attacked.
In this context, I think paying a few cents more and getting enough hardware to write down all words in full, is definitely going to be worth it.

For instance, you will need to either number (but that takes up more space) every 4-letter 'word slice' or you'll have to remember / mark somehow for each washer which is the first, second, third and fourth word. If you do it like myself or fillippone, you will have one word per side and one number per side, so it's easy and clear to read.

Keep in mind that these backups are supposed to withstand extreme conditions, under which a letter may become indecipherable. In such a situation, you'll be happy that you wrote down more than the minimum required 4 letters per word.

It could be viable as a secondary backup, especially for being able to store a few wallets' seeds in one small convenient location, with separate, 'full backups' somewhere else. Like, if you have to move somewhere for a while or something, I get it that carrying multiple of my backups will quickly get heavy.

[fillippone]

That's because I am convinced the risk of losing funds due to unrecoverable backups is much higher than losing funds by being attacked.

Fully agree with the above statement.
There is no point saving a few centimeter printing both side of the washers, risking that any mishap to the backup make the seed unreadable.
I prefer reliability over convenience, in this specific case.

[Welsh]

I've also been thinking about employing this technique for other non related Bitcoin things, such as passwords, obviously randomly generated passwords. Might be more secure than a password manager since the weakness there is your master password, and hardware key if you've got one. The thing is the capsule is much easier to disguise, and doesn't initially scream like your hiding something, although I can also think of other ways of concealing washers quite innocently.

If anyone in the United Kingdom wants to buy a Blockmit jig (though I believe mine is better due to the ability to customize it! ) I just found out this 13 year old kid runs a 3D printing Bitcoin shop over there and has the jig in stock for £5.00 which is a pretty solid price in my opinion.

https://robotechy.com/

I'm sure you could also send him a customized STL file of my jig and he'd print it for a similar price.
Not affiliated, just giving a shout out to a young entrepreneur!^{(I'm sure there are parents in the background to help him, but still I support it when children do something useful with their time)}

Nice one, pretty decent price considering that there's not much of a competing market out there. Might just get one to support him also. Its nice to see someone get into this niche at such a young age, obviously I'm assuming there is some sort of parental guidance going on.

[LoyceV]

I am convinced the risk of losing funds due to unrecoverable backups is much higher than losing funds by being attacked.

That's why I prefer to have 2 different backup systems in place for the same data. I do of course test both systems independently, to see if I can recover them (before funding).

It could be viable as a secondary backup, especially for being able to store a few wallets' seeds in one small convenient location, with separate, 'full backups' somewhere else. Like, if you have to move somewhere for a while or something, I get it that carrying multiple of my backups will quickly get heavy.

I couldn't help but smile at the thought of going somewhere, suffering under the load of all your Bitcoin backups

[m2017]

~

On first thought, I really like the idea; it allows to have more compact backups and even combine two backups on one screw.
However, I personally always value legibility over size / anything else. This also applies to stuff like custom crypto (shuffling words, ...) or super strong passphrases. That's because I am convinced the risk of losing funds due to unrecoverable backups is much higher than losing funds by being attacked.
In this context, I think paying a few cents more and getting enough hardware to write down all words in full, is definitely going to be worth it.

Each of us can pursue different goals, and in this case, for some, legibility /readability will be important, for others, compact storage. The choice of method for preserving a seed-pharse
 will depend on the goals pursued by each individual.

I understand your concerns about the possible loss of backup data and therefore I suggest that need to make several copies of it.

For instance, you will need to either number (but that takes up more space) every 4-letter 'word slice' or you'll have to remember / mark somehow for each washer which is the first, second, third and fourth word. If you do it like myself or fillippone, you will have one word per side and one number per side, so it's easy and clear to read.

I mentioned this above, but thanks for expanding my vision with your comment.

With this mini-experiment, I want to clearly show that 4 words can be applied to 1 washer. 2 on one side and 2 on the back. If reduce the number of letters to 4 (this is enough to identify the desired right word and restore seed-phrase). There is still space for numbering the puck so as not to make a mistake with the word order.

Keep in mind that these backups are supposed to withstand extreme conditions, under which a letter may become indecipherable. In such a situation, you'll be happy that you wrote down more than the minimum required 4 letters per word.

I don't think that extreme conditions will affect the readability of the text, because the washers fit snugly together and the construction looks solid and reliable. You need to make a lot of effort and pursue the specific goal of spoiling the text in order to be able to do this.

It could be viable as a secondary backup, especially for being able to store a few wallets' seeds in one small convenient location, with separate, 'full backups' somewhere else. Like, if you have to move somewhere for a while or something, I get it that carrying multiple of my backups will quickly get heavy.

I'm also more inclined towards having a duplicate of the same seed-pharse and stored in completely different locations. The short version of the text is in easy and immediate accessibility, the full version is in a safe and hard-to-reach place.

Fully agree with the above statement.
There is no point saving a few centimeter printing both side of the washers, risking that any mishap to the backup make the seed unreadable.
I prefer reliability over convenience, in this specific case.

Your point of view is clear. But you can't help but agree that putting text on both sides of the washer will not affect the quality and safety of the seed-phrase in any way. Because the thickness of the washer allows to apply text in this way without any damage, and this will positively affect compactness. Noticeable advantage.

I've also been thinking about employing this technique for other non related Bitcoin things, such as passwords, obviously randomly generated passwords. Might be more secure than a password manager since the weakness there is your master password, and hardware key if you've got one. The thing is the capsule is much easier to disguise, and doesn't initially scream like your hiding something, although I can also think of other ways of concealing washers quite innocently.

Any important information (the text is easily divided into numbered washers) can be stored using such storage. Ways to hide washerss are only limited by the man's imagination. For example, you can use washers for its intended purpose (assembly of products, structures or decorative elements) by putting text on the inside. Who would ever think to check every detail that caught their eye, what is on its inside?

[dkbit98]

With this mini-experiment, I want to clearly show that 4 words can be applied to 1 washer. 2 on one side and 2 on the back. If reduce the number of letters to 4 (this is enough to identify the desired right word and restore seed-phrase). There is still space for numbering the puck so as not to make a mistake with the word order.

It's not like you are going to drastically reduce size by doing this experiment, and you are increasing chances of mixing up correct ordering of words that could lead to losing of your funds.
Stainless steel washers are dirt cheap, you can buy them anywhere in your local areas, so reducing cost is not appealing enough for me to do this.

Keep in mind that these backups are supposed to withstand extreme conditions, under which a letter may become indecipherable. In such a situation, you'll be happy that you wrote down more than the minimum required 4 letters per word.

When you are talking about extreme weather conditions, I don't know if you know this but 304 stainless steel can easily be corrupted if exposed to salt water, so if you are living in area near sea water I would opt out for better 316 stainless steel.
I am not sure if Jameson Lopp did any tests with salt water, but I believe that is much more realistic threat for some parts of the world compared to acid exposure.

Not all stainless steel is made the same, there are different types and grades, so while 316 SS is better for salt water it does have slightly lower melting point compared to 304 SS:

Grade 304 melting points: 1400-1450°C (2552-2642°F)
Grade 316 melting points: 1375-1400°C (2507-2552°F)
Grade 430 melting points: 1425-1510°C (2597-2750°F)
Grade 434 melting points: 1426-1510°C (2600-2750°F)
Grade 410 melting points: 1480-1530°C (2696-2786°F)
Grade 420 melting points: 1450-1510°C (2642-2750°F)

Pick 304 if you want high temperature resistance, or pick 316 if you want high corrosion resistance.

[n0nce]

I am convinced the risk of losing funds due to unrecoverable backups is much higher than losing funds by being attacked.

That's why I prefer to have 2 different backup systems in place for the same data. I do of course test both systems independently, to see if I can recover them (before funding).

That's always great; any sort of redundancy is really mandatory.

It could be viable as a secondary backup, especially for being able to store a few wallets' seeds in one small convenient location, with separate, 'full backups' somewhere else. Like, if you have to move somewhere for a while or something, I get it that carrying multiple of my backups will quickly get heavy.

I couldn't help but smile at the thought of going somewhere, suffering under the load of all your Bitcoin backups

Something like this?

Not all stainless steel is made the same, there are different types and grades, so while 316 SS is better for salt water it does have slightly lower melting point compared to 304 SS:

Grade 304 melting points: 1400-1450°C (2552-2642°F)
Grade 316 melting points: 1375-1400°C (2507-2552°F)
Grade 430 melting points: 1425-1510°C (2597-2750°F)
Grade 434 melting points: 1426-1510°C (2600-2750°F)
Grade 410 melting points: 1480-1530°C (2696-2786°F)
Grade 420 melting points: 1450-1510°C (2642-2750°F)

Pick 304 if you want high temperature resistance, or pick 316 if you want high corrosion resistance.

Thank you so much for looking this up; I originally went for a cheap SS that I had in my local hardware store, but I'll add this to my topic so everyone can buy according to their needs. I would agree that exposure to salt water seems like a relatively likely scenario in many places of the world, so it's well worth considering.

[Welsh]

Pick 304 if you want high temperature resistance, or pick 316 if you want high corrosion resistance.

For most people you would assume high temperature resistance would be preferable. I imagine most ways that people store this won't be at risk of coming into contact with corrosive substances. However, a house fire is much more likely. House fires might not be enough, but I guess it depends on the specific circumstances of how its stored. For example, storing your backup in your garage which has a ton of fuel around could increase the risk.

I will say one thing though that its time to put on your tin foil hats. Don't store your washers in your kitchen cupboard that has anything with chlorine in it . Chlorine will eat away at your stainless steel as its particularly vulnerable to it. It's worth mentioning that your tap water could potentially have low levels of chlorine in it, so if you have a pipe that could be dripping onto them for a while, obviously depending on how you store them, over time you might have a issue. Though, drinking water is usually has a very low concentration of cl2. Although, some places might be more than others. 1-2 parts per million could potentially give you that corrosion over time, and that's obviously ignoring the damage the water could do itself. Anyway, that's my tin foil rant over.

The point I was trying to make wasn't that chlorine in particular is a problem, but rather don't store your washers in random places in the house that have corrosive substances near them. For example, not everyone wants to put them in a capsule, and not everyone wants to store them together. So, they might opt to place them all around the place, to make them look quite innocent to anyone looking through your house. For example, a thief isn't going to even look at a washer that might be in your kitchen cupboard or your garage.

To me, 304 is going to be the one that makes the most sense for most people.

[fillippone]

I slightly edited the OP to correct some repetitions, typos and other horrible errors.
Thank you, @gazetabitcoin, for helping me sort out that monstrosity and making my posts even better.

[Agbe]

In any learning, understanding the author's mind is the most important aspect of the book or in the reading process. Especially when the content is not familiar with the specific field of your study or the content in the context. From the OP's analysis of the

Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers

, it was not easy for me to understand. I read the article for about 2 times before really getting the real message of the author. And I have understood it to the core.

First of all, I really appreciate your effort of getting the washer to secure your seed phrase. It is one of the best Wallet security apparatus I have seen. I was planning to get it in my locality but what I have is different. And the printing process is stressful. It takes days to complete the process though it all depends on the printer.

Oven or Constant Light

These are the most important objects of the printing. Heating the printing stamps and the hitting the anvil needs very hot oven or light to do that.

I got it from a welder in my location.

[fillippone]

Oven or Constant Light

These are the most important objects of the printing. Heating the printing stamps and the hitting the anvil needs very hot oven or light to do that.

I don’t know if I understand right, but both anvil and stamp don’t need to be heated for stamping. All tre process is done with cold instruments.
I would have told you to do so.
Also, your washers look quite different from the one I used. I never saw a washer with borders. Are you sure are you using the right tool?

[LoyceV]

In any learning, understanding the author's mind is the most important aspect of the book or in the reading process.

It sounds like you're trying to write a school essay.

Also, your washers look quite different from the one I used. I never saw a washer with borders. Are you sure are you using the right tool?

Those are dumbbell discs. And they're big enough to stamp all your seed words at once.

[n0nce]

These are the most important objects of the printing. Heating the printing stamps and the hitting the anvil needs very hot oven or light to do that.

I got it from a welder in my location.

Ohhh no no no no - if I didn't know your handle, I'd assume your post to be sarcastic.
I think you totally overestimated the size of what we call 'washers'. What fillippone and I are using are small metal discs, between 20 and 30mm in diameter and 2-3mm thick. They are cheap to procure, easy to stamp and compact to store and conceal.

How do you plan on hiding seed words stamped on actual barbell weights? I also assume they're pretty expensive to the washer backups we're talking about here.

[fillippone]

I am wondering how wasn’t clear what a washer is and how bit it is.
 I also wrote in the article the actual size.
To be honest those look quite similar to barbell weights, but isn’t a bold the object peeking in the bottom right of the picture? Is that a giant bolt?

In addition to that, what is the oven story?

[n0nce]

To be honest those look quite similar to barbell weights, but isn’t a bold the object peeking in the bottom right of the picture? Is that a giant bolt?

Probably the actual barbell. Everything in the picture looks like barbell parts.

In addition to that, what is the oven story?

He probably had to heat the tools to be able to dent the barbell weights' surface. But I'd really like to see how the words look like; even if it's a single letter.

[fillippone]

To be honest those look quite similar to barbell weights, but isn’t a bold the object peeking in the bottom right of the picture? Is that a giant bolt?

Probably the actual barbell. Everything in the picture looks like barbell parts.

In addition to that, what is the oven story?

He probably had to heat the tools to be able to dent the barbell weights' surface. But I'd really like to see how the words look like; even if it's a single letter.

I have seen those “strongest man” competition where you are supposed to lift spherical stones,  turn gigantic tires or stuff like that. News year the prize will be awarded to who will be able to print a seed phrase on those barbell weights!

[PawGo]

I have seen those “strongest man” competition where you are supposed to lift spherical stones,  turn gigantic tires or stuff like that. News year the prize will be awarded to who will be able to print a seed phrase on those barbell weights!

That's the idea. They will start the competition from easy 6 word seeds, then average 12 word seeds and at the end the most difficult seeds 24 words.
Additionally there may be one more task - Tower of Hanoi build from seeds.

[m2017]

Also, your washers look quite different from the one I used. I never saw a washer with borders. Are you sure are you using the right tool?

Those are dumbbell discs. And they're big enough to stamp all your seed words at once.

Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers takes it to the next level. This also has its advantages: thieves will definitely not steal your seed phrase, because they simply can't carry it away. Sorry, I couldn't resist saying that.

Oh yeah, what would be the total weight of the vault if you wrote one word for each washer dumbbell disc?

This picture sparkled with new colors in this context?

These are the most important objects of the printing. Heating the printing stamps and the hitting the anvil needs very hot oven or light to do that.

I got it from a welder in my location.

Ohhh no no no no - if I didn't know your handle, I'd assume your post to be sarcastic.
I think you totally overestimated the size of what we call 'washers'. What fillippone and I are using are small metal discs, between 20 and 30mm in diameter and 2-3mm thick. They are cheap to procure, easy to stamp and compact to store and conceal.

How do you plan on hiding seed words stamped on actual barbell weights? I also assume they're pretty expensive to the washer backups we're talking about here.

I hope that this was a joke from Agbe, because in this thread the dimensions of washers were discussed many times, which in no way could be confused with dumbbell discs.

Theoretically, if Agbe so desires, let him use GYM discs to store seed phrase. He just needs to figure out a way to hide what he wrote and Agbea can be awarded a prize for the most original way of storing seed phrase. Personally, on my own behalf, I award him merit. He deserved it.

To be honest those look quite similar to barbell weights, but isn’t a bold the object peeking in the bottom right of the picture? Is that a giant bolt?

Probably the actual barbell. Everything in the picture looks like barbell parts.

In addition to that, what is the oven story?

He probably had to heat the tools to be able to dent the barbell weights' surface. But I'd really like to see how the words look like; even if it's a single letter.

I have seen those “strongest man” competition where you are supposed to lift spherical stones,  turn gigantic tires or stuff like that. News year the prize will be awarded to who will be able to print a seed phrase on those barbell weights!

This is easily done with a dremel or laser engraving. Agbe shouldn't have any problems with the laser, because he has already found welder. Sorry again. This story still makes me smile.

[Agbe]

Oven or Constant Light

I got it from a welder in my location.

I am wondering how wasn’t clear what a washer is and how bit it is.
 I also wrote in the article the actual size.
To be honest those look quite similar to barbell weights, but isn’t a bold the object peeking in the bottom right of the picture? Is that a giant bolt?

In addition to that, what is the oven story?

I smile sir. Sir please don't be confused. Although I did not explain the irons well for easy understanding. I was trying to give example of my understanding of your thread that, I got a similar disk from a welder. I Know for sure that they are not washers but washer look alike. And also they are bigger than washer.  They are barbell weights, even though the welder uses them to print the seed phrase, I believe I can't secure or hide the seed phrase because it is too big to hide seed phrase.

The Oven

As for the oven. I was trying to say that, from your presentation, you gave the examples of the tools used in printing the seed phrase, I know before you print the seed, you must heat (make it hot) your Stamps either by light, gas, stove or charcoal to make it very hot before using the anvil and the hammer to make the printing less stressful.

Finally

I really appreciate your presentation and also today I came to know about washers which can be used to secure seed phrase although it will be very difficult for me to have washer in my village but that not withstanding I can use something else to secure my phrase and also present it here. So don't be confused. I am your boy that always learning from you.

[n0nce]

I have seen those “strongest man” competition where you are supposed to lift spherical stones,  turn gigantic tires or stuff like that. News year the prize will be awarded to who will be able to print a seed phrase on those barbell weights!

That's the idea. They will start the competition from easy 6 word seeds, then average 12 word seeds and at the end the most difficult seeds 24 words.
Additionally there may be one more task - Tower of Hanoi build from seeds.

Another idea: You need to carry a bag full of weights with seed words on them and if you manage to cover a set distance, you're allowed to open it and your prize are the seed words. Olympic games, Bitcoin style.

Something like this!

This picture sparkled with new colors in this context?

They are barbell weights, even though the welder uses them to print the seed phrase, I believe I can't secure or hide the seed phrase because it is too big to hide seed phrase.

So you did have someone engrave / weld a seed phrase into them? I see you censored something on them.

As for the oven. I was trying to say that, from your presentation, you gave the examples of the tools used in printing the seed phrase, I know before you print the seed, you must heat (make it hot) your Stamps either by light, gas, stove or charcoal to make it very hot before using the anvil and the hammer to make the printing less stressful.

Your welder had to heat his tools to get the seed phrase into the weights or do you mean that fillippone heated his stamps for stamping washers? I wouldn't recommend to heat up 'washer-caliber' stamps, because it would damage them. It's certainly possible that that's required to stamp actual freaking gym weights, though...

It will be very difficult for me to have washer in my village but that not withstanding I can use something else to secure my phrase and also present it here.

That's pretty creative, I'll give you that! Never would have imagined engraving barbell weights with a Bitcoin seed phrase.
Now, that makes me think there are tons of other, more easy to stamp and conceal, metal 'things' we could stamp.

I believe someone mentioned stamping an actual door hinge, before screwing it into the wall, for instance.
You could probably also stamp your car's frame underneath the carpets or engrave some actual metal coins, maybe stored together with other coins in a piggy bank.