Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers

[m2017]

Reagarding the rust free metals, There's a big difference between rust free coating and rust free metal.
Many sellers play with that and expected quality is far from the reality.
If the coating is damaged the bottom layer will start rusting.
It saves money to the seller but do the opposite to the buyer.
I haven't seen stainless steel washers rusting yet. If they are 316L then you are on the safe side.

In case you are in a doubt, you can always apply grese on the washers in case you live close to the coastline. That will add a few more decades life of the washers in case of tsunami, or you can hide them in a water too.

Even on rusted washers exposed on normal weather conditions, if the stamps are deep enough, they will be readable for years.

Then the thickness of the metal on the washers will need to be thicker, which, accordingly, will increase the overall size of the washers. The thicker they are, the larger the size. This creates some difficulties for ordinary users. Making deep stamps on thick metal with stamps is almost impossible and will require deep engraving, laser or dremel. In any case, you will need special equipment.

This level of protection and preservation of the puck can only be done by people with access to the necessary equipment and the appropriate skills. No one in their right mind would think to apply with such an order to specialized services.

Even that miracle machine causes only superficial and not deep dots - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5389446.msg60523498#msg60523498.

Although a piece of metal in the last photo in that post is impressive.

[LoyceV]

I don't know how many times I've had questionable metal, that's suppose to not rust, and do. I've even had titanium which rusted within a few days. I'm currently looking for these Hermetic containers though, struggling to find them.

I've never had the pleasure of owning titanium, but Google tells me pure titanium doesn't rust.

Why not just submerge them in oil? It won't matter if the container isn't perfectly sealed, no air can reach the metal.

[DaveF]

I don't know how many times I've had questionable metal, that's suppose to not rust, and do. I've even had titanium which rusted within a few days. I'm currently looking for these Hermetic containers though, struggling to find them.

I've never had the pleasure of owning titanium, but Google tells me pure titanium doesn't rust.

Why not just submerge them in oil? It won't matter if the container isn't perfectly sealed, no air can reach the metal.

Wax would probably also work well. And hide what they are. Get a candle mold, put the stack in, make the candle with a wick and put it on a shelf. Decorative candle that holds your seed phrase in an airtight way. Odds are a thief is not going to go after a candle on a shelf if you happen to get robbed.

And yes, pure titanium should not rust but a lot of titanium alloys will.

-Dave

[dkbit98]

In case you are in a doubt, you can always apply grese on the washers in case you live close to the coastline. That will add a few more decades life of the washers in case of tsunami, or you can hide them in a water too.

Other than oil, there is also paint that is used specially for protection against rust.
I even saw some examples of users who created painted DIY bitcoin stainless seed washers.

Why not just submerge them in oil? It won't matter if the container isn't perfectly sealed, no air can reach the metal.

That's a good idea, because oil and water doesn't mix at all, and even putting them in grease or fat would work just fine.
Titanium is great, and I think someone said that washers from titanium exist,  but they are much more expensive.

Wax would probably also work well. And hide what they are. Get a candle mold, put the stack in, make the candle with a wick and put it on a shelf. Decorative candle that holds your seed phrase in an airtight way. Odds are a thief is not going to go after a candle on a shelf if you happen to get robbed.

Works 100%.
I know people who are using bee wax for securely sealing containers.

[fillippone]

Wax would probably also work well. And hide what they are. Get a candle mold, put the stack in, make the candle with a wick and put it on a shelf. Decorative candle that holds your seed phrase in an airtight way. Odds are a thief is not going to go after a candle on a shelf if you happen to get robbed.

Unless your candle is orange and decorated with a BTC symbol, yes, I would say that a candle is another place a random burglar wouldn't check.

This makes me object that the problem is not on where you hide, but actually "how" you hide.
You can have the most convolute system to hold your seed, but if you ultimately have to tell someone where this seed is, that is the most critical point of failure (I guess the average divorcing wife can make a candle disappear, or eradicate a safe box from the wall.

[Welsh]

I've never had the pleasure of owning titanium, but Google tells me pure titanium doesn't rust.

Why not just submerge them in oil? It won't matter if the container isn't perfectly sealed, no air can reach the metal.

Well, that was the issue. I didn't own titanium either because it rusted within a few days. It should react with the oxygen in the air, and provide a sort of protection from the rust. That was the point I was trying to make, even though some might say the metal is x, they could potentially be pulling your leg. For a lot of metals its not actually obvious what type of metal or grade it is. We just take the manufacturers or the person selling it for their word.

Oil could work, I suppose. Wouldn't that pose extra risks with fire then? Oil increasing the heat of a potential fire, and then still having to rely on the washers or containers supposed grade.

And yes, pure titanium should not rust but a lot of titanium alloys will.

It was likely a blend of titanium, and other metals. Since, this metal was fairly cheap for a chunk of titanium. I was suspicious at the time.

[LoyceV]

Oil could work, I suppose. Wouldn't that pose extra risks with fire then? Oil increasing the heat of a potential fire, and then still having to rely on the washers or containers supposed grade.

If that's a concern, you could use high-temperature grease, I have some C5-A at home that's supposed to withstand 1800 ^oF (980 ^oC). But a backup is a much simpler solution

[fillippone]

Oil could work, I suppose. Wouldn't that pose extra risks with fire then? Oil increasing the heat of a potential fire, and then still having to rely on the washers or containers supposed grade.

If that's a concern, you could use high-temperature grease, I have some C5-A at home that's supposed to withstand 1800 ^oF (980 ^oC). But a backup is a much simpler solution

I am just wondering which kind of tool you have at home.
I have no grease, no anvil, and no hammers. I basically had to buy everything for this guide while you guys have "home improvement-grade" sheds full of the weirdest tools.

[Lida93]

At first when I saw the thread I thought to myself this is too time taking to read through, but then I had to go through it anyway and it was worth it in the almost about 30mins I spent to read through.

I am completely impressed with the whole idea of the corrosion-resistant stainless steel seed phrase storage as it going to last for decades if not for time immemorial in addition to other advantageous factors attached like it being fire safe too. But the whole cost of getting the entire enlisted materials available for the whole procedures raise a concern to me based on my financial feat, even though it is worth it. And so I have come up with another idea of getting to use a goldsmith to print for me (to cut cost in the purchase of materials)  but with an aluminum steel. For security of not exposing my seed phrase I also thought of taking each phrase seed to different goldsmiths  in different distant locations. All these is just to help me in saving cost as getting all those materials needed as listed by fillippone might soil my pocket at the moment. 

[LoyceV]

I am just wondering which kind of tool you have at home.
I have no grease, no anvil, and no hammers.

Just the usual I guess, I've collected it over the years. I started with cheap 40-in-1 boxes as a teenager, and now switched to buying only quality tools. I don't use them often, so I expect it to last a lifetime.

I basically had to buy everything for this guide while you guys have "home improvement-grade" sheds full of the weirdest tools.

So you're starting your tool collection Next time, you'll have to buy less.

I have come up with another idea of getting to use a goldsmith to print for me

That's a terrible idea!

but with an aluminum steel.

What's that?

For security of not exposing my seed phrase I also thought of taking each phrase seed to different goldsmiths

It's still terrible for security. Don't do this, don't risk it.

All these is just to help me in saving cost as getting all those materials needed as listed by fillippone might soil my pocket at the moment.  

You must live in a country with very low wages. Here, a goldsmit opening the door already costs more than all the equipment listed in this topic.
My advice when you're on a budget: get washers (you'll need them anyway) or even cheaper: a plate of scrap metal. Buy letter punches. All the rest you can improvise MacGyver style.

[fillippone]

All these is just to help me in saving cost as getting all those materials needed as listed by fillippone might soil my pocket at the moment.  

My advice for a budget: get washers (you'll need them anyway) or even cheaper: a plate of scrap metal. Buy letter punches. All the rest you can improvise MacGyver style.

Definitely don't take my equipment list too literally. I just described an overkill configuration. But a bunch of washers, an hammer  and a nut and a bold would be enough for a more than decent backup.
The important thing, like @LoyceV said, is security. Never expose your seed, or part of it, to anyone.

[Agbe]

All these is just to help me in saving cost as getting all those materials needed as listed by fillippone might soil my pocket at the moment.  

My advice for a budget: get washers (you'll need them anyway) or even cheaper: a plate of scrap metal. Buy letter punches. All the rest you can improvise MacGyver style.

Definitely don't take my equipment list too literally. I just described an overkill configuration. But a bunch of washers, an hammer  and a nut and a bold would be enough for a more than decent backup.
The important thing, like @LoyceV said, is security. Never expose your seed, or part of it, to anyone.

Getting those materials also depend on the location or the country of the buyer. You might think that those things are cheap in your area but might not be the same in another area. That bunch of washer which comprises of the hammer, bold, and the plate the name may be will cost like $20 plus in my locality. And if it is not found in the locality, you will ship it from out country which will cost another extra expenses. If someone really get that, it will be a nice saver of seed phrase.

[n0nce]

Getting those materials also depend on the location or the country of the buyer. You might think that those things are cheap in your area but might not be the same in another area.

I generally agree with that; I've definitely come across items that are commonplace in Europe and impossible to find in the US, and vice-versa.
However, I don't see how people in other locations would build anything without washers. This would be like saying 'oh yeah, over here we build furniture without screws' or 'we do not use nails'. Wherever you find screws (anywhere, no?) there should be washers nearby.

[LoyceV]

I generally agree with that; I've definitely come across items that are commonplace in Europe and impossible to find in the US, and vice-versa.

I've noticed it with ball bearings vs carbon brushes: the former are very cheap here, the latter very expensive (compared to international prices). Both are mass-produced and used in very large quantities. It doesn't make sense that only one of them is very expensive (1000-2000% price increase).

However, I don't see how people in other locations would build anything without washers. This would be like saying 'oh yeah, over here we build furniture without screws' or 'we do not use nails'. Wherever you find screws (anywhere, no?) there should be washers nearby.

And if not, they can be produced locally from scrap metal. And we're worrying about high quality titanium to avoid corrosion or melting in a fire.
Letter punches may be more difficult to find.

[dkbit98]

I generally agree with that; I've definitely come across items that are commonplace in Europe and impossible to find in the US, and vice-versa.
However, I don't see how people in other locations would build anything without washers. This would be like saying 'oh yeah, over here we build furniture without screws' or 'we do not use nails'. Wherever you find screws (anywhere, no?) there should be washers nearby.

It's true that washers can be found anywhere in the world, but question is how good is quality of materials that is used to make them.
There are different types of stainless steel, and some cheap alternatives are made from regular steel or the use different metal alloys with worse specifications.
I would buy washers only from trusted sellers and always check label and specification for exact material that is used.

[m2017]

I generally agree with that; I've definitely come across items that are commonplace in Europe and impossible to find in the US, and vice-versa.
However, I don't see how people in other locations would build anything without washers. This would be like saying 'oh yeah, over here we build furniture without screws' or 'we do not use nails'. Wherever you find screws (anywhere, no?) there should be washers nearby.

It's true that washers can be found anywhere in the world, but question is how good is quality of materials that is used to make them.
There are different types of stainless steel, and some cheap alternatives are made from regular steel or the use different metal alloys with worse specifications.
I would buy washers only from trusted sellers and always check label and specification for exact material that is used.

Let the washer be of poorer quality and from slightly different alloys, it will still be better than cardboard or paper. In case of emergency, ordinary iron washers can be used, only taking care that the metal doesn't come into contact with oxygen, which causes an oxide film in the form of rust. This can make the printed text unreadable. Use modern ways to protect metal, like paint or something like that. Ultimately, this is an additional way to hide the text on the washers (you can't accidentally peek and if someone removes the paint, you will know that the seed phrase is compromised), which you can always remove with a solvent.

This is not the best solution, but in the case of limited components, it is quite acceptable.

[fillippone]

This is not the best solution, but in the case of limited components, it is quite acceptable.

The purpose of this guide was to provide a very basic way of safeguarding seed with very commonly available materials that can be bough basically everywhere without raising OpSec concern.
Nothing says this is the ultimate way of storing your seed.

[Welsh]

Still on the hunt for those containers. I like the look of them, and I'm sure there's other ways of going about it, but they satisfy the nerd in me.

I am just wondering which kind of tool you have at home.
I have no grease, no anvil, and no hammers. I basically had to buy everything for this guide while you guys have "home improvement-grade" sheds full of the weirdest tools.

I've just accumulated weird tools as life has progressed. So, I did have some of the stuff for this guide. I haven't got any grease that'll withstand that sort of temperature though. Same as the washers, I'm not sure the grade of metal used in my washers as they're plain, and a little beat up. They probably came off of something years ago that I can't remember.

[fillippone]

A nice idea to hide your seed:



Of course there is a big risk when you want to recover your seed, or that you unvoluntailty expose it if you forget it's hidden there! (it can happen!)

[LoyceMobile]

Sorry honey, I'm doing some online shopping, I'll put back the 12 doors when I'm done.