Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers

[fillippone]

I guess the problem here is that copper is very prone to corrosion to the simple contact to air. Corrosion makes stamped lettere difficult to read.

Although it's true copper easily corrodes (we have old buildings with copper roofs that are now green), it also forms a protective layer. Plain iron would rust away completely, copper doesn't.
Also, since copper is much softer, it's much easier to use a letter stamp. Stainless steel is quite difficult to dent. I haven't tried, but I can't imagine the (much deeper) letters in copper are hard to read. And even if that's the case after 50 years in the rain, just use some sand paper to remove the green surface and you'll have green letters on a red copper plate.

We need some of the chemists in the thread to test copper stamping.
Also, apart from resistance to fire, also resistance to physical damage is to be tested: copper is way more malleable than stainless steel if I am not wrong.

[1714072136]

1714072136

[m2017]

Still, I've never heard of anything searching walls with a metal detector for Bitcoin The only reason to do that would be to avoid drilling in pipes.
I'm not worried about this. Besides, I'd fill the hole with a screw, which makes it even more obvious there's metal.

New times (and technologies) give rise to new treasure seekers. Who would have thought that the guy who lost his laptop with btc would want to dig in a garbage dump (I don’t remember his name, but it seems he is from England and still hopes to get permission to excavate the svali from the authorities).

In general, as I said, there are a lot of options where and how to hide seed phrase. It all depends on having the right tools and creative ideas.

That's true, but we don't have to be all that creative. Who's going to scan your walls with a metal detector? Even, if they did, and it went off it could be pipes or anything really. There's a ton of metal in my walls. Plus, no one's really going to think of that unless you're a really high target, but most of us aren't targets to that. So, while I like the discussion about creative ideas, I think we should probably keep it to realistic threat levels.

Plus, I'm not convinced by door hinges. I've seen some very poor quality hinges which rust like crazy when exposed to moisture. So, I'd preferably go for something that's resistant to corrosion.

Yes, maybe so, and these fears are from the category of fiction with a very low probability of what will happen. But fires also don't occur every day and in every apartment (the probability of occurrence is also not as high as it seems), but many will prefer refractory metal.

Is it not possible to choose door hinges of the quality and material you need? As I said above, they exist from stainless steel (and other metals as well).

i better go with stamps for $30 from ali and copper plate from our local shop ($10).

Brilliant suggestion!  Well, not really. Corrosion resistance of copper depending on conditions isn't the best compared to stainless steel or titanium and copper's melting point is too close to house fire temperatures. What's the point going the bargain route here?

I guess the problem here is that copper is very prone to corrosion to the simple contact to air. Corrosion makes stamped lettere difficult to read.
Why should you use copper? 10$is not that different from the price of the washers.

The issue of corrosion is solved very easily - it is enough to isolate the metal from contact with air. It can be oil, paint or other substance.

[LoyceV]

Also, apart from resistance to fire, also resistance to physical damage is to be tested: copper is way more malleable than stainless steel if I am not wrong.

You're not wrong, but is this really something to worry about? I've had all kinds of coins in my wallet my entire life, and never ever did any one of them get physically destroyed. I've used metal washers for various applications, and the worst I've seen was surface rust. I've seen surface rust on stainless steel too, but only after prolonged exposure to seawater.

You'll need to put the washer on a train track and have it run over (seriously, don't do this!) to flatten it enough to make it unreadable.

[Welsh]

You're not wrong, but is this really something to worry about? I've had all kinds of coins in my wallet my entire life, and never ever did any one of them get physically destroyed. I've used metal washers for various applications, and the worst I've seen was surface rust. I've seen surface rust on stainless steel too, but only after prolonged exposure to seawater.

I've seen washers get run over, I mean they're often scattered around in work sites with all kinds of machinery driving over it. Unless, it's standing up, and then something very heavy drops on it. It's going to be absolutely fine. You shouldn't be putting your backup, something that's extremely important to you in harms way in the first place. I can't think of any circumstance this would be justified. Unless, you live in a concrete building, and you're worried about it falling down. I'd be more worried about gaining access to the debris to find it, rather than it being destroyed though. I mean, if you're concerned about this then I probably wouldn't have it there in the first place.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about this at all.

[n0nce]

Unless, you live in a concrete building, and you're worried about it falling down.

We've seen with the recent earthquakes how important it can be to have a seed phrase backup that can withstand some damage.
One of the reasons I like to use one washer per 24-word seed backup and large washers is that the end result is relatively large and bulky, so you could find it again in such a scenario.

Of course, it would be much easier to just go to one of your other 'off-site' backup locations, import the seed phrase and move the coins to a fresh wallet (in case someone finds your backup in the rubble).

I'd be more worried about gaining access to the debris to find it, rather than it being destroyed though. I mean, if you're concerned about this then I probably wouldn't have it there in the first place.
Personally, I wouldn't worry about this at all.

That's a legitimate worry, but not really an issue if you have multiple backups. Unless of course, a huge region is affected by natural disasters like tsunami, earthquake, tornado and all your backups are in that affected region. Or if there are war bombings in the whole region..

[fillippone]

I'd be more worried about gaining access to the debris to find it, rather than it being destroyed though. I mean, if you're concerned about this then I probably wouldn't have it there in the first place.
Personally, I wouldn't worry about this at all.

That's a legitimate worry, but not really an issue if you have multiple backups. Unless of course, a huge region is affected by natural disasters like tsunami, earthquake, tornado and all your backups are in that affected region. Or if there are war bombings in the whole region..

This is actually a great point.
Thinking of an earthquake you are barred to access your home for a very long period of time, even if it is standing.
It it reduced in rubble, you probably wouldn't have access to the debris.
In case of a large washers pile, the probability someone see it an d understand what it is, is not negligible.


In my case, given my very personal threat vectors, I opted for a washer stack similar to the one depicted in this thread enclosed in a safe box in a bank. (multiple layers of security, underground, water around it, etc).
Not because my stack is huge, but because It is convenient to me.

[Welsh]

True, earthquakes are possible. I guess I take that for granted, since natural disasters don't really happen a lot in the UK. except for flooding I suppose, but that entirely depends on where you live. Obviously, multiple backups should be done, but I do fear that most users will have multiple backups in either the same place or in close proximity, which you know kind of defeats the point.

Anyway, I should've probably been a little more open minded in terms of natural disasters, that was mainly ignorance from me, and potentially insensitive considering what's happening in Turkey. So, I definitely apoligise if that came across wrong. However, the point does still somewhat stand. If you're worried about it, then you could mitigate that by storing it elsewhere or by having multiple backups as mentioned. Since, you can't really mitigate natural disasters such as the earthquakes if your washer gets a direct hit from something as large as a concrete building falling down, it's likely not going to survive that especially since they'll be stacked up if you're storing in the recommended containers. The flatter it is the more chance it has, but even then I wouldn't be confident of it.

Instead of trying to find a material that could withstand that though, just remove the possibility if possible. I understand for rather large earthquakes or natural disasters that could be difficult. However, you could potentially revert to the ol' digging technique in a marked location in the middle of nowhere, where the chances of someone discovering it would be incredibly slim.

In my case, given my very personal threat vectors, I opted for a washer stack similar to the one depicted in this thread enclosed in a safe box in a bank. (multiple layers of security, underground, water around it, etc).
Not because my stack is huge, but because It is convenient to me.

I'm actually in the process of doing it, and not just for my Bitcoin, but other things like certain credentials. However, my threat model isn't as extreme as some of the options here, since I live in a relatively stable area which doesn't have too many hazards.

[fillippone]

I'm actually in the process of doing it, and not just for my Bitcoin, but other things like certain credentials. However, my threat model isn't as extreme as some of the options here, since I live in a relatively stable area which doesn't have too many hazards.

When I was referring to threats I was thinking about legal ones, like government banning bitcoin possessions, or legal ones (an asset seizure from government) or a search warrant of your belongings.
Not just natural disasters, rather self-inflicted ones!

[dkbit98]

We've seen with the recent earthquakes how important it can be to have a seed phrase backup that can withstand some damage.
One of the reasons I like to use one washer per 24-word seed backup and large washers is that the end result is relatively large and bulky, so you could find it again in such a scenario.

LoyceV tactics of putting paper backup inside walls wouldn't end very well in this earthquake scenario, but I don't think slightly larger washers would make much difference.
Only thing that would work in events like this is if you have multiple backups distributed in different locations, different cities, regions or even countries.
We could argue that living in house is much better option than living in tall buildings, and if you want to hide anything, digging a hole in your backyard or near your favorite tree/flower would be much better.

I'm actually in the process of doing it, and not just for my Bitcoin, but other things like certain credentials. However, my threat model isn't as extreme as some of the options here, since I live in a relatively stable area which doesn't have too many hazards.

Stable can quickly turn to unstable, and it doesn't have to be natural disasters.
I know some people who are having big problems with immigrants, police are not doing anything about them, they are armed, they are dealing drugs, and doing all kinds of shit.
They look more like armed forces ready to be deployed on command.

When I was referring to threats I was thinking about legal ones, like government banning bitcoin possessions, or legal ones (an asset seizure from government) or a search warrant of your belongings.
Not just natural disasters, rather self-inflicted ones!

They banned gold in past, so nothing would surprise me anymore.

[LoyceV]

True, earthquakes are possible. I guess I take that for granted, since natural disasters don't really happen a lot in the UK. except for flooding I suppose, but that entirely depends on where you live.

Other locations have forest fires, high crime rates or many other risk factors. Although devastating on a local scale, natural disasters still have a low chance of occuring in most places. There are much bigger risk factors on a personal level.

Obviously, multiple backups should be done, but I do fear that most users will have multiple backups in either the same place or in close proximity, which you know kind of defeats the point.

Multiple backups is indeed the logical solution, but increases the risk of someone gaining access. I'm fairly certain I could just post my encrypted private keys on Bitcointalk as a backup, but I wouldn't dare do that. After many years in Bitcoin, the compromise between keeping access by myself and having someone else gain access still feels uncomfortable.

[Welsh]

Multiple backups is indeed the logical solution, but increases the risk of someone gaining access. I'm fairly certain I could just post my encrypted private keys on Bitcointalk as a backup, but I wouldn't dare do that. After many years in Bitcoin, the compromise between keeping access by myself and having someone else gain access still feels uncomfortable.

Yeah, I haven't got too many backups myself. I do have backups, but I'm comfortable with the level of backups, and I think that's the whole point of this discussion. Do what makes you feel comfortable, even though a lot of it will likely be overkill. However, to feel comfortable, I'd absolutely recommend going through the painful experience of securing your wallets. I know the pain, I've delved into security a few times in the past, and even my routine new computer setup has now reached like stupid levels of complexity, which is very likely considered impractical to a lot of users, and quite frankly not needed. However, I do it because that's what makes me feel comfortable.

Like I said though, I'm currently in the process of doing something similar to the OP with other things that aren't Bitcoin related, and I say currently very loosely, because it's very long process.

[n0nce]

Also you can use aggressive salt solution (see youtube for this , guy who test some auto cover spray) and a stencil on washers. you'll need a glue or whatever too. 2 hours and steel will be black after that

A source would be helpful. I assume this etches the metal; is it known how deep this etch is and how well it will hold up over time?
Cutting out stencils also seems a bit of a tedious process; though it may be a really viable alternative for whoever has no access to stamps (e.g. expensive due to weak local currency).

[LoyceV]

I know the pain, I've delved into security a few times in the past, and even my routine new computer setup has now reached like stupid levels of complexity, which is very likely considered impractical to a lot of users, and quite frankly not needed. However, I do it because that's what makes me feel comfortable.

I've spent many, many hours rebooting into offline mode running from DVD, copying transactions and rebooting again when it turns out I used the wrong version or wrong fee. It's a pain indeed, and got much better since I have a spare laptop dedicated for this. But it gives peace of mind knowing for a fact that my funds are safe.

I assume this etches the metal

This reminds me of PCB etching:

(source)

After printing the seed words (on a secure offline system) on a transparent sheet, you follow one of the many PCB etching tutorials to get your text in copper on epoxy.
It's not as fire resistant as stainless steel, but looks very nice. If only you could show it to people

[m2017]

I assume this etches the metal

This reminds me of PCB etching:

(source)

After printing the seed words (on a secure offline system) on a transparent sheet, you follow one of the many PCB etching tutorials to get your text in copper on epoxy.
It's not as fire resistant as stainless steel, but looks very nice. If only you could show it to people

The part that is made of copper will need to be additionally covered with a layer of solder, which is applied using a soldering iron. To prevent copper from oxidizing. It's still a thin layer of copper, like foil. So, it will require additional skills and tools. Although in principle, you can varnish or something like that. Whatever is at hand will do.

I would prefer to cover this piece of epoxy with a second one with the same dimensions and connect them with bolts and nuts, having previously drilled them (strengthens the structure and protects from prying eyes). You can also stick a protective sticker.

[LoyceV]

To prevent copper from oxidizing.

I'm okay with copper oxidizing. It will still perform it's function.

Although in principle, you can varnish

To keep it shiny, I'd use varnish indeed.

[m2017]

To prevent copper from oxidizing.

I'm okay with copper oxidizing. It will still perform it's function.

But it can create an extra headache with cleaning the metal from oxidation. Not to mention that it will make the text hard to read. As always happens: it is easier to prevent than to eliminate the consequences.

One day you may need urgent access to the seed phrase and taking out this epoxy you will see something similar to the picture. This is a waste of time, which can already be very little.

Although in principle, you can varnish

To keep it shiny, I'd use varnish indeed.

Well, yes, this is the most important thing in the securing seed phrases. The main thing is to shine.  

[LoyceV]

That looks bad, but it's not something I'd worry about when storing seed words on copper plates. It looks like someone put in a lot of effort to make it look like "mold".
This picture made me look up what happened to copper on the Titanic, and that shows you're much better off using bronze (if you want to store it safely on the ocean floor for a century). Lol

[n0nce]

I assume this etches the metal

This reminds me of PCB etching:

(source)

After printing the seed words (on a secure offline system) on a transparent sheet, you follow one of the many PCB etching tutorials to get your text in copper on epoxy.
It's not as fire resistant as stainless steel, but looks very nice. If only you could show it to people

That's a joke, right.. PCBs have a super thin copper layer glued onto a piece of FR4. The copper can be peeled off with just a knife. That's also why solder pads can rip off the FR4 base material when you put stress on an SMD solder joint. So, sure it is a 'metal backup' but with none of the physical properties we usually attribute to a 'metal seed phrase backup'..

I've yet to see something that beats stainless steel washers!

[LoyceV]

That's a joke, right..

It's more of a gimmick, I wouldn't use it as a backup (because it's far too much work, and a dirty job to do). But I wouldn't really worry about durability when stored properly (just like I don't really worry about paper either).

The copper can be peeled off with just a knife.

I don't really worry about someone peeling my seed phrase with a knife If that happens, I have a problem already.

I've yet to see something that beats stainless steel washers!

Granite?

[alexeyneu]

we're living during ice age. http://www.atmo.arizona.edu/students/courselinks/fall12/atmo336/lectures/sec5/pleistocene.html#:~:text=We%20are%20currently%20in%20a,occur%20in%20about%2085%2C000%20years.

granite yeah