Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers

[dkbit98]

Copper washers are also widely available and cheap, but I am sure everyone already have something from copper in their home, just make sure it's pure copper, not some of the cheaper alloys.
I checked local prices for copper washers and they are very cheap, but I would always choose stainless steel if I had the option to choose, because it has much higher melting point and I think it's more durable.
It would be interesting to see stress testing for copper washers, maybe that Italian member (can't remember his name) can do another round of testing soon with more acid and fire

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[LoyceV]

Those are crush washers: the edge is small, and the hole is big. I've never seen a "normal" washer made out of copper, it's too soft to be used as construction material. So there's not much space for stamping words.

[fillippone]

I've yet to see something that beats stainless steel washers!

Indeed. Just remind me why we are talking about copper washers, when we have another superior material in practically every aspects.
Because of malleability? Are you serious?

[Welsh]

Copper washers are also widely available and cheap, but I am sure everyone already have something from copper in their home, just make sure it's pure copper, not some of the cheaper alloys.
I checked local prices for copper washers and they are very cheap, but I would always choose stainless steel if I had the option to choose, because it has much higher melting point and I think it's more durable.
It would be interesting to see stress testing for copper washers, maybe that Italian member (can't remember his name) can do another round of testing soon with more acid and fire

When you consider price, I mean the loss of strength in copper probably isn't worth it. I think copper should be left to pipes in your home, and not as a way of storing something important on them. Stainless steel, and potentially titanium are really really the only options you need. Though, personally in this application stainless steel is the superior choice, and readily available from every single hardware store.

You also get Copper Oxide from Copper, and that's not something you want when dealing with storing indentations. I mean, technically you could clean it up, but what's the point when there's other materials which aren't as prone to oxidizing in the first place?

Because of malleability? Are you serious?

Right, generally the more malleable it's the more prone to accidental damage. Obviously, that entirely depends what you're doing with your seeds, and what sort of risk they're potentially subjected too, but I'd like to think most of us would like one of the most durable options, especially when the price difference isn't substantial.

[fillippone]

I think this copper line of thinking is totally useless.
I still have to figure out a single advantage of copper instead of stainless steel.
Let’s try to stick to useful ideas, not speculations about every possible permutation.

[dkbit98]

Those are crush washers: the edge is small, and the hole is big. I've never seen a "normal" washer made out of copper, it's too soft to be used as construction material. So there's not much space for stamping words.

Maybe, I never saw exact size of this washers.
I don't know how soft copper is exactly, but it was used for centuries as a bronze for making swords, axes and knifes, especially during the bronze age.
If you scratch the ground in Europe you could find a bunch of  copper objects, museums are full of it, and bronze is alloy of copper and other ingredients to make it harder.

When you consider price, I mean the loss of strength in copper probably isn't worth it. I think copper should be left to pipes in your home, and not as a way of storing something important on them. Stainless steel, and potentially titanium are really really the only options you need.

Someone else mentioned copper first, and I know it's not perfect but it's still much better than aluminum and other cheap metals.
If you already have something copper at home than it's possible to use that as custom backup, nobody will think anything suspicious about it, even if it's pipes we are talking  

Here is Jameson Lopp testing Copper Safe Seed plate that passed all tests with perfect score, and it costs only $28:
https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/reviews/safe-seed/

I still have to figure out a single advantage of copper instead of stainless steel.
Let’s try to stick to useful ideas, not speculations about every possible permutation.

Copper exists much longer than stainless steel, so it's funny to say that this is some speculation...
If you already have copper you can use it, that is an advantage for some people.

[hymperion]

guys forget about the copper, those washers there bend with your hands...

however I haven't forgotten the project, the washers are still in acid and in water.

[alexeyneu]

with copper you can go with say leather stamps and you don't need sledgehammer. $10

those latter steel guys are fucked up slightly no?

[Welsh]

Someone else mentioned copper first, and I know it's not perfect but it's still much better than aluminum and other cheap metals.
If you already have something copper at home than it's possible to use that as custom backup, nobody will think anything suspicious about it, even if it's pipes we are talking  

Here is Jameson Lopp testing Copper Safe Seed plate that passed all tests with perfect score, and it costs only $28:
https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/reviews/safe-seed/

I'm not knocking the idea, I just think there's better options. However, that entirely depends on your threat model. I mean, if you don't need to extra strength or durability of stainless steel, then sure copper is a cheap alternative. It could even be free as you say, since most households have dead legs of copper pipes where alterations have been made, and they just capped it off instead of removing it. So, yeah you could probably source it pretty cheaply. You could potentially even talk to construction site managers, and see if you can have some of their waste material. Since, they could through a ton, and a lot of it gets thrown out in their skips.

I personally prefer a more permanent solution though, and by that I mean the extra durability, and corrosion resistance that Stainless Steel offers. Honestly, I believe stainless steel to be overall the best option since it's also not that expensive, and does a good job for most environments.

[LoyceV]

if you don't need to extra strength or durability of stainless steel, then sure copper is a cheap alternative. It could even be free as you say, since most households have dead legs of copper pipes where alterations have been made, and they just capped it off instead of removing it. So, yeah you could probably source it pretty cheaply. You could potentially even talk to construction site managers, and see if you can have some of their waste material. Since, they could through a ton, and a lot of it gets thrown out in their skips.

I don't think anyone throws out copper, it's worth €6.50/kg! In fact, copper theft is a serious problem. So if you have old pipes, sell it, and buy washers

[fillippone]

if you don't need to extra strength or durability of stainless steel, then sure copper is a cheap alternative. It could even be free as you say, since most households have dead legs of copper pipes where alterations have been made, and they just capped it off instead of removing it. So, yeah you could probably source it pretty cheaply. You could potentially even talk to construction site managers, and see if you can have some of their waste material. Since, they could through a ton, and a lot of it gets thrown out in their skips.

I don't think anyone throws out copper, it's worth €6.50/kg! In fact, copper theft is a serious problem. So if you have old pipes, sell it, and buy washers

My point is how saving 10 USD or so can become a relevant aspect when securing intergenerational wealth.
Some aspect of my guide are clearly an overkill on the bare minimum, but I struggle with the concept of taking risks on the materials used for stamping.

[Welsh]

I don't think anyone throws out copper, it's worth €6.50/kg! In fact, copper theft is a serious problem. So if you have old pipes, sell it, and buy washers

They do! You'd be surprised by the amount of waste of construction sites. Copper isn't even the most expensive thing they throw away. You can blame the quantity surveyors, but there's a ton of waste on construction sites. I know people who have outfitted their camper van with the waste from the construction site that they work at. I'm assuming with permission . I'm not sure how much pipes or copper cabling weighs mind you, might take a bit to get to the price per kilogram.

However, on the topic of wastage or where you can save a little money; steel washers are everywhere in rubbish places. So, you can always ask them or even construction sites again. Washers are often tossed away after they've completed the project. I'm sure if you ask nicely you could get a freebie.

[dkbit98]

I don't think anyone throws out copper, it's worth €6.50/kg! In fact, copper theft is a serious problem. So if you have old pipes, sell it, and buy washers

There are recycling centers all around the world that buys used metal materials, but beware that there are many different type of copper.
It is more expensive than stainless steel so it must be better for something, maybe not for backing up bitcoin seed phrase but for something else.
One example how price of copper increased a lot, on Jameson Lopp review website Safe Seed copper plate was $16 (one of the cheapest at that time), and few years later price is $28... nice inflation.

They do! You'd be surprised by the amount of waste of construction sites.

People throw out everything
I know people who found perfectly working good quality laptops in garbage, or they had some small error.

[LoyceV]

It is more expensive than stainless steel so it must be better for something, maybe not for backing up bitcoin seed phrase but for something else.

Copper is good at several things: conducting electricity, killing microbes, easy to work with (bending/soldering) and lasts very long (I admit: I had to Google this, because I didn't think of the last 2).
Try to make a 1 mm deep seed word in stainless steel, how many times do you need to hit it?

[Welsh]

Copper is good at several things: conducting electricity, killing microbes, easy to work with (bending/soldering) and lasts very long

It's naturally antibacterial, obviously that's good for certain applications, but not so much for a seed backup. Conducting electricity isn't that helpful in this use case either. However, by no means is it a useless metal. Hence, why we still use it today for various applications. Every home likely has copper used somewhere inside it, and a lot of them have waste that they could potentially cut from it. I've seen some horrendous jobs where a contractor has come in, cut into the pipe, and inserted what is basically a cap. Then, they just leave the excess pipe there. So, free pipe. There are certain times they do this because the owner might want to expand at a later date, but sometimes it's also due to laziness or not having the means to dispose of it.

Try to make a 1 mm deep seed word in stainless steel, how many times do you need to hit it?

Now that depends on how strong you're, right?

[AverageGlabella]

I do not own a 3d printer can I buy your jig from any where or will I have to buy the cryptocloak jig? I want to use bigger washers and not 25mm which are the only one that cryptocloak support. Only $10 for the jig is a good price and I do not think I can make one cheaper then that because I would need to use a company to print the jig.

[fillippone]

easy to work with (bending/soldering)

Blimey! You are not Italian, otherwise in your school history you would be plenty, I mean plenty, of copper bas-reliefs. Ask the dumbest Italian about copper and the third thing that will come out after wires and drain pipes, is those stupid primary school artworks everyone had to do.

Try to make a 1 mm deep seed word in stainless steel, how many times do you need to hit it?

In my experience, with a heavy hammer and the jig, just one good hit is enough.

[n0nce]

I do not own a 3d printer can I buy your jig from any where or will I have to buy the cryptocloak jig? I want to use bigger washers and not 25mm which are the only one that cryptocloak support. Only $10 for the jig is a good price and I do not think I can make one cheaper then that because I would need to use a company to print the jig.

Depending on your location and whether you're comfortable with sharing it with myself, you can DM me and we'll figure something out. Don't worry about the price.

[bpkdasbaum]

I do not own a 3d printer can I buy your jig from any where or will I have to buy the cryptocloak jig? I want to use bigger washers and not 25mm which are the only one that cryptocloak support. Only $10 for the jig is a good price and I do not think I can make one cheaper then that because I would need to use a company to print the jig.

I can make you a Seed Backup Jig in any size. Visit my shop here and message me your exact specifications that you want:

https://www.etsy.com/shop/BaumCrypto

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[LoyceV]

Quoting for the image to show up:

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