Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers

[LoyceV]

Lol, it's those days when your relationship will be under stress when your better half surprises you with: Look darling, I cleaned up all the mess in the garage that piled up over the years. ... Darling?

Very possible scenario.

If I'd do the same to my wife's old, unused shoes, I'm dead
I would expect most couples to know not to throw out each other's stuff without asking.

Really? Darling can't clean up the mess in her room, let alone the garage.

Good point Or use your manly strength: put 400 kg of crap on top. Or mount the washers (still my favourite). Use them to hang something from the ceiling. If you ever need your backup, you'll be forced to clear out the garage first. That's good against impulsive selling

I think that one good way to hide seed phrases is to paint the wall with white anti-mold paint, then draw seed phrases with black paint, then use the paint sealer, then buy some nice wallpapers and install wallpapers yourself. While I probably wouldn't 100% depend on that method, it still looks nice and fun but still, I prefer memorizing and repeating of 12 words seed phrase to seal it in brain, that's the most brutal method out there with the highest pros and cons

Then what? When you need your backup, you spray your wall until seed words appear in mold?

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[fillippone]

Lol, it's those days when your relationship will be under stress when your better half surprises you with: Look darling, I cleaned up all the mess in the garage that piled up over the years. ... Darling?

Very possible scenario.

If I'd do the same to my wife's old, unused shoes, I'm dead

Rookie mistake.
There is no such thing as ”unused shoes” for a woman.

[Synchronice]

I think that one good way to hide seed phrases is to paint the wall with white anti-mold paint, then draw seed phrases with black paint, then use the paint sealer, then buy some nice wallpapers and install wallpapers yourself. While I probably wouldn't 100% depend on that method, it still looks nice and fun but still, I prefer memorizing and repeating of 12 words seed phrase to seal it in brain, that's the most brutal method out there with the highest pros and cons

Then what? When you need your backup, you spray your wall until seed words appear in mold?

I guess no one will ever think that someone has bitcoin wallet and hides seed phrases behind the wallpaper. When you need your backup, you just remove the wallpaper from the wall. If you want to delete your seed phrases, you'll repaint the wall, buy a new wallpaper and continue life.

There is no such thing as ”unused shoes” for a woman.

Depends on the shoe, she will definitely make a drama out of it and will try to get a new one(s) from you because of your mistake When you buy her an expensive shoe(s), she will definitely reconcile with you

By the way, there is no such thing as unused shoes for a man, as women say. For example, tell your wife, who has ten times more shoes than you, that you need to buy a new one and she will quickly reply that you have enough, if anyone needs new shoes, it's her because she hasn't bought them for six months

[n0nce]

Buy a 3D printer just to create a Seed Backup Jig? Hmm, I guess that would be overkill.

What if we assume that 3D printers log the data of what you have printed?

To the best of my knowledge, all major / popular 3D printer models either ship with or their hardware supports open-source firmware like Marlin or Klipper.

They both do store the 3d model that you want to print (it's a feature), but you can format the SD card afterwards or just delete the file. I don't think they have any hidden 'logs' of models, but since they are open-source everyone can check for themselves.

Marlin also doesn't have any internet access, as far as I know (haven't used it in a while). So there is no uplink to anyone's servers whatsoever, i.e. no risk of anyone knowing what you are printing as long as you own your own 3d printer.

Bottom line though: you don't need any printed jigs. You can just do the washer backup by hand.

[m2017]

Some thoughts about alternative versions of the Seed Phrase Washers prompted me to write this post.

Washers are undoubtedly a good solution, but what other solutions can be found or made?

The simplest (to write seed phrases) shape is a rectangle. You can make (or buy) small plates that can be connected to each other using a ready-made hole (or made yourself) as in the figure below. The size can be selected optionally.

Using several of these plates will allow to reduce the size of a “classic” plate like this one and fit not all 12 / 24 words on 1 plate, but only 4-6 (or less), for example. In one hole there will be a bolt with a nut on a permanent basis, which will hold the stack of “credit cards” together and allow it to be rotated around its axis in order to view the text on the lower plates, and in the second there will be a bolt and nut that fixes it. For greater reliability, you can make 4 holes in the corners and fasten them.

In theory, this method can be used with [100 dots] seed phrase backup for the same purposes - reducing the size of the physical backup, as well as strengthening  the structure due to the presence of several plates that provide additional rigidity and impact resistance. Add to this the fact that if no information is applied to the top plate, the result is a closed structure containing a phrase (in the form of text or dots - it doesn’t matter) inside and inaccessible to prying eyes.

The next option is furniture fittings. A smaller version of the solution above. I'm not sure if there is a stainless steel version, but this design can be selected as a sample and made (given to be made) yourself.

One plate - one word (or two, if applied on both sides). How is this better than washers? And the fact that you don’t need any additional devices, like a Seed Backup Jig.

But I would prefer something similar to this. In the same way, they are connected with 2 bolts and a nut and form a fixed structure + small sizes.

With some imagination (straight hands handmade skills and tools) can come up with different solutions for making physical / metall seed phrase backup.

[apogio]

...

Are you refering to something like this: https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/reviews/crypto-keys/ ?  This could be another option But of course I reckon you want to do a custom construction and besides, their website is currently down.

[m2017]

...

Are you refering to something like this: https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/reviews/crypto-keys/ ?  This could be another option But of course I reckon you want to do a custom construction and besides, their website is currently down.

Not exactly "like this". Only partly. Thanks for the link to this article.

I wouldn't carry the seed phrase plates around as a keychain. Firstly, it is easy to read all the phrases, and secondly, when the structure is connected on both sides and fixed (bolt + nut), it forms a more durable thing. One of the photos from the link above shows that as a result of the crash test, some of the plates were bent. It will be more difficult to bend them in a bunch, although this doesn't directly affect the readability of the text, but it is better to be on the safe side and provide for the possibility of the plates “withstanding” a greater load. As much as possible.

Something like this: on both sides, the holes are tightened with a bolt and nut. The number of plates varies depending on individual preference.

It is advisable to use nuts with a nylon insert to avoid self-loosening (although I doubt that this will happen).

[LoyceV]

It is advisable to use nuts with a nylon insert to avoid self-loosening (although I doubt that this will happen).

You need a lot of vibrations for self-loosening a nut. From the tests I've seen, nylon inserts help a bit but given enough vibrations, it'll still get loose. None of this should be a problem for your seed word storage though, unless maybe if you store it on top of your car engine for years.

[fillippone]

Some thoughts about alternative versions of the Seed Phrase Washers prompted me to write this post.

Very nice.
In my opinion, washers are more ubiquitous than metal plates and may have a final form factor that is easier to conceal.
Yet, your solution is perfect, as it uses commonly available materials and preserves the holder's privacy.
Of course, the weakest link in my guide is the jig, which is necessary for my method, while you found an excellent alternative for those who haven't been able to find one.

Security models are very different as different attack vectors are possible: there isn't a "better solution" for everyone as scenarios are different for everybody. This guide is excellent for those who want to rely on pieces you can find in any hardware store.

.

[m2017]

It is advisable to use nuts with a nylon insert to avoid self-loosening (although I doubt that this will happen).

You need a lot of vibrations for self-loosening a nut. From the tests I've seen, nylon inserts help a bit but given enough vibrations, it'll still get loose. None of this should be a problem for your seed word storage though, unless maybe if you store it on top of your car engine for years.

If the vibrations of the nuts cause a problem for someone, then you can use one trick: instead of one nut per bolt, tighten two nuts. You will be surprised to see how reliable it will be. Check this out for authenticity sometime.

Some thoughts about alternative versions of the Seed Phrase Washers prompted me to write this post.

Very nice.
In my opinion, washers are more ubiquitous than metal plates and may have a final form factor that is easier to conceal.
Yet, your solution is perfect, as it uses commonly available materials and preserves the holder's privacy.
Of course, the weakest link in my guide is the jig, which is necessary for my method, while you found an excellent alternative for those who haven't been able to find one.

Security models are very different as different attack vectors are possible: there isn't a "better solution" for everyone as scenarios are different for everybody. This guide is excellent for those who want to rely on pieces you can find in any hardware store.

.

I agree, the washers probably seem universal due to their form factor, but this also imposes some limitations. But there are still some advantages, one of which I wanted to highlight. This is an opportunity to enclose a stack of washers in a metal capsule tube to provide greater durability and protection from environmental influences, while at the same time providing some camouflage. Although a stack of bolted plates can be placed in a metal box, which will have similar characteristics.

I don't think plates are any harder to find than washers. Everything is publicly available. The choice between a washer or a plate will depend only on individual preferences. In general, systemically, both options are not very different from each other.

I wouldn't say there are perfect solutions. More like an alternative. As for jig, can do without it by showing resourcefulness or patience (without hand tremors ).

That’s right, it’s impossible to protect yourself from “all attack vectors” and have to try to protect yourself from the maximum possible for you.

[Husna QA]

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It is advisable to use nuts with a nylon insert to avoid self-loosening (although I doubt that this will happen).

I used Flange bolts and Flange nuts to prevent self-loosening a nut.

I have made backup seed phrases using M8 Flat Washer 1.5mm (galvanized iron plate) and 2.0mm (304 Stainless Steel M8 x 24 x 2.0mm).
Here are some of the equipment and results that I have made:

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The example seed listed above is only for initial testing, while a backup of the original seed phrase using the washer is stored in the safe box.

[LoyceV]

If the vibrations of the nuts cause a problem for someone, then you can use one trick: instead of one nut per bolt, tighten two nuts. You will be surprised to see how reliable it will be. Check this out for authenticity sometime.

Nope, I saw it on Youtube too: given enough vibrations, it still gets loose. If you want to be absolutely certain it doesn't unwrap itself, do what my motorcycle uses on it's axis: drill a hole, and place a split pen through it.

[Cricktor]

Can someone explain to me why you think your metal backup will be exposed to such an amount of vibrations that you fear the nut may become loose? Come on, that seems nuts to me. You must have some pretty obscure hiding locations for your backups which have vibes of such strength.

Seriously, at most I'd apply some strong Loctite to secure and be good with it. For tamper detection some glitter and hot glue and a picture of the resulting glitter pattern.

[Husna QA]

Can someone explain to me why you think your metal backup will be exposed to such an amount of vibrations that you fear the nut may become loose? Come on, that seems nuts to me. You must have some pretty obscure hiding locations for your backups which have vibes of such strength.

There is no harm in paying attention to the slightest possibility that could happen, such as the nut loosening and falling off the bolt, whether due to vibration, impact or other causes.
Some testing methods for the durability of seed phrase storage media can be tested against heat stress at a specific temperature, water resistance, corrosion resistance, shock resistance, etc. All of this aims to minimize the loss of seed phrase data.

Some Jameson Loop testing:
https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test-iv/

[fillippone]

The example seed listed above is only for initial testing, while a backup of the original seed phrase using the washer is stored in the safe box.

Of course it is.
The seed phrase is also illegal:



Sorry, I had to try anyway
Very beautiful setup. Love the earplug addition to my "overkill" equipment.

[Husna QA]

The example seed listed above is only for initial testing, while a backup of the original seed phrase using the washer is stored in the safe box.

Of course it is.

I usually give warnings, especially to beginners, to never disclose their seed phrases to the public.

The seed phrase is also illegal:



Sorry, I had to try anyway

The seed is not the BIP39 type but rather a seed phrase I got from Electrum when creating a wallet in the Electrum - Bitcoin Wallet thread I made.

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Code:

expose kite brave build spoon chest desert offer together student valve polar

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Please test the seed again on Electrum; you will get the same wallet address as mine.

Very beautiful setup. Love the earplug addition to my "overkill" equipment.

Thank You. At least earplugs can reduce the noise when tapping the letters/numbers on the washer.

[fillippone]

Please test the seed again on Electrum; you will get the same wallet address as mine.

My bad, I didn't follow all the links back to the original message.
I confirm the address is valid and sadly empty.
Apparent there are never been any transactions on each of those addresses

Thank You. At least earplugs can reduce the noise when tapping the letters/numbers on the washer.

I didn't bother adding this as the noise when stamping the washers wasn't very annoying.

[Husna QA]

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Thank You. At least earplugs can reduce the noise when tapping the letters/numbers on the washer.

I didn't bother adding this as the noise when stamping the washers wasn't very annoying.

For some people, they may not need earplugs, especially those who are used to sounds such as factory machines or others.
I use these earplugs because when I stamp the washer with quite a lot of letters & numbers, it disturbs my hearing a little.

And its use is also inspired by the following Cryptotag tutorial video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKgeItLZL-M.
(The Cryptotag Thor starter kit even includes earplugs in the box content packaging: https://cryptotag.io/products/thor-starter-kit/).

[LoyceV]

For some people, they may not need earplugs, especially those who are used to sounds such as factory machines or others.

For the record: nobody "gets used to" loud noise. Hearing damage collects over the years, and every exposure to loud sound adds up. It might take years before you realize it's too late.

[taufik123]

For some people, they may not need earplugs, especially those who are used to sounds such as factory machines or others.

For the record: nobody "gets used to" loud noise. Hearing damage collects over the years, and every exposure to loud sound adds up. It might take years before you realize it's too late.

Generally, a sound with a volume level of 30 dB - 85dB is a safe sound for the human ear.
If the sound produced by the letter knocker is above 85dB in one beat,
it will interfere with hearing, and usually when exposed to noise for too long the ears will ring.