Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers

[LoyceV]

Size they are using for washers is very similar to coin shape

It could be fun to do this on an actual coin.

One downside of this strategy can be for people with bad eyesight, but it's easy to use glasses or magnifying glass.

As a kid, I used to have a magnifying glass. Nowadays I get my phone to zoom in for the smallest things. How many people are going to make that mistake? I prefer to keep my fonts large enough to read.

[dkbit98]

It could be fun to do this on an actual coin.

I would not experiment with that, especially with modern coins that are mostly made from cheaper metal alloys.
Older coins could be better, but stainless steel or titanium washers are cheaper for sure.

As a kid, I used to have a magnifying glass. Nowadays I get my phone to zoom in for the smallest things. How many people are going to make that mistake? I prefer to keep my fonts large enough to read.

Yeah good point, I forgot about modern phones that also have zoom feature, and ,ore expensive phones usually have better cameras and zoom.
That being said, another crazy extreme version of this would be to write seed words on microscopic level, but than you need to have a microscope. 

[LoyceV]

I would not experiment with that, especially with modern coins that are mostly made from cheaper metal alloys.

I wouldn't worry about the melting point much, but it's just not very practical. It's too small, and using fiat coins to store real money doesn't feel right This reminds me of collectibles: some people still hold the only private key that can access 50 BTC on a tiny piece of paper inside a collectible coin. There's no backup, and it's as fragile as it gets.

[satscraper]

I like binary encoding, thus,  just came up with an idea for encoding SEED words using the 12-position external tooth washer.




We can use a 12-position washer to encode a word from our SEED phrase in binary format. 11 positions give us exactly the right number of bits to represent a full 11-bit binary value, which aligns perfectly with any of  2048 words from  BIP-39 wordlist. Each of those 11 positions around the washer can represent "1" or a"0" depending on whether a tooth is present at that position or not.

The 12^th position  which would have a tooth of half length ^{or any distinct marking} would serve as a start marker to help with decoding.

Seems to be easy implemented.

How about this?

[LoyceV]

We can use a 12-position washer to encode a word from our SEED phrase in binary format. 11 positions give us exactly the right number of bits to represent a full 11-bit binary value, which aligns perfectly with any of  2048 words from  BIP-39 wordlist. Each of those 11 positions around the washer can represent "1" or a"0" depending on whether a tooth is present at that position or not.

This looks like something that can be used for hiding in plain sight: throw 50 of those washers in a drawer with other loose bolts, nuts, screws and washers, and nobody is ever going to suspect them. The main risk will be forgetting about them, and using them for some construction 30 years in the future.
If you use it like this, you'll need to add some numbering to the washers. And you'll need to carefully verify you used the correct binary values for your seed words.

The 12^th position  which would have a tooth of half length ^{or any distinct marking} would serve as a start marker to help with decoding.

I'd bend them instead of cutting them.

[satscraper]

The 12^th position  which would have a tooth of half length ^{or any distinct marking} would serve as a start marker to help with decoding.

I'd bend them instead of cutting them.

Yeah  bending would definitely be much easier than cutting, but using bending for  full set of 12 or 24 washers would make the whole setup bulkier. That, in turn, would require a larger container to hold the whole stuff. Nevertheless bent tooth  is also a good starting mark.

I'm going to get  12-external-tooth washers to bring this idea to life. Since my SEED is 24 words long I’ll need to buy 24 washers in total.

If you use it like this, you'll need to add some numbering to the washers. And you'll need to carefully verify you used the correct binary values for your seed words.

Numbering could  be applied to the planar surface of the washers for the better visibility

[fillippone]

The main risk about this setup is always the same: complexity.
Will you be able to remember, in 20, 30 or 50 years, how you encoded your binary code?
Will your sons, grandsons or whoever might need to read those washers Able to understand what they represent?

[fillippone]

Updating this thread after a long time as I saw a new product from CryptoCloaks: a new jig to print your seed on a single washers: JIG54

	The new double jig: pretty hefty, but functional.	The stamps, even if barely readable at the naked eyes, are quite clear with a magnification lens

Basically you can print a full 24 words on a single washer: 12 per side, 6 per ring. Your backup is condensed on a single washer.  

[LoyceV]

The stamps, even if barely readable at the naked eyes, are quite clear with a magnification lens

I like the creativity, but this would make me worry more about corrosion.

I just found back a piece of stainless steel thread that had been in a leaky location for 10+ years. There was enough corrosion on it to call it rust by now.

[fillippone]

The stamps, even if barely readable at the naked eyes, are quite clear with a magnification lens

I like the creativity, but this would make me worry more about corrosion.

I just found back a piece of stainless steel thread that had been in a leaky location for 10+ years. There was enough corrosion on it to call it rust by now.

While I like these washers to be hidden “everywhere”, I wouldn’t recommend hiding in any harsh environment.
But I have the same worry of yours: even a little damage to the washer can turn in an horrendous loss of data on the seed phrase.

[m2017]

The stamps, even if barely readable at the naked eyes, are quite clear with a magnification lens

I like the creativity, but this would make me worry more about corrosion.

I just found back a piece of stainless steel thread that had been in a leaky location for 10+ years. There was enough corrosion on it to call it rust by now.

For protection a piece of stainless steel, can use paints, modeling clay, silicone, or liquid glass - materials that will also keep things hidden from prying eyes. This provides a shield against the external environment and curious onlookers.

 

While I like these washers to be hidden “everywhere”, I wouldn’t recommend hiding in any harsh environment.
But I have the same worry of yours: even a little damage to the washer can turn in an horrendous loss of data on the seed phrase.

Yes, you could hide the washer in a practical way - for instance, by attaching it to a piece of furniture, an appliance, or any other household item, positioning it so the inscription is covered. Who would ever think to look underneath a standard piece of furniture? Just be careful not to throw it away when replacing furniture or forget it behind when moving.

As for the "harsh environment" you mentioned - are we talking about a metal-smelting plant? As I noted earlier, can use protective paints, or perhaps a silicone or rubber gasket to keep the inscription from getting damaged. Use your imagination.

And what’s stopping you from making a few duplicates of the washer? In any case, it’s easier to hide two or three individual washers than it is to conceal a whole stack of them, as is often the case with traditional (1 phrase per washer) stamping methods.

[LoyceV]

For protection a piece of stainless steel, can use paints, modeling clay, silicone, or liquid glass - materials that will also keep things hidden from prying eyes.

I'd get very curious if I find a steel washer inside a blob of glass. I checked the melting points, and they're quite close together. As much as I like the corrosion resistance of glass, this isn't very practical.

[Cricktor]

I think m2017 doesn't speak of molten glass but of "waterglass" which is Sodium silicate, a water soluble silicate compound (mostly Sodium based but other alkali metals work too) which can be used for coatings and other use cases. In liquid form it can react with carbon dioxide to harden permanently to insoluble silicic acid.

Frankly, I don't know if this forms a non-porous coating, actually.

I wouldn't consider such "coating" as very resistant to all kinds of harsh environment for stainless steel. I wouldn't want to expose my metal washers with my mnemonic words to anything harsh. I prefer Titanium over stainless steel anyway and Titanium washers aren't terribly expensive, have a higher melting point and are more inert than stainless steel.

[dkbit98]

Basically you can print a full 24 words on a single washer: 12 per side, 6 per ring. Your backup is condensed on a single washer.  

There is already a company called Microseed that is selling similar product, but it's much more expensive.
You obviously got some inspiration from this or some similar project, but that is fine for me.
Can you do something similar for stainless steel razor blades?

PS
Razor blades are temporary solution, since they have only thin stainless layer.

I like the creativity, but this would make me worry more about corrosion.

If corrosion is a problem, I would suggest titanium washer as alternative option.

[m2017]

For protection a piece of stainless steel, can use paints, modeling clay, silicone, or liquid glass - materials that will also keep things hidden from prying eyes.

I'd get very curious if I find a steel washer inside a blob of glass. I checked the melting points, and they're quite close together. As much as I like the corrosion resistance of glass, this isn't very practical.

Melting point of stainless steel - 1300-1500°C
The melting point of liquid glass -  above 1000°C
Temperature during a fire - 1000-1350°C

Well, unless you happen to live right next to the vent of an active volcano (where, incidentally, the maximum possible temperature of magma is up to 1700 °C), I don’t think your stainless steel plate is going to melt and fuse with molten liquid glass (the glass would melt long before that). It seems highly unlikely that stainless steel would melt in a typical fire (though whether any engraved text would remain legible is a question for a separate experiment). If, however, you were to intentionally subject the plate to extreme heat, that would be an entirely different matter.

I think m2017 doesn't speak of molten glass but of "waterglass" which is Sodium silicate, a water soluble silicate compound (mostly Sodium based but other alkali metals work too) which can be used for coatings and other use cases. In liquid form it can react with carbon dioxide to harden permanently to insoluble silicic acid.

Yes, you’re right. Thanks for the clarification.
 

I wouldn't consider such "coating" as very resistant to all kinds of harsh environment for stainless steel.

On the other hand, it should provide protection against non-aggressive environmental factors, such as exposure to air, water, or salts (chloride ions from table salt can cause pitting and crevice corrosion in stainless steel, so don’t keep your inox washers in the kitchen ), in short, things commonly encountered in everyday life.
 

I wouldn't want to expose my metal washers with my mnemonic words to anything harsh.

And who’s going to ask you about it? In such cases, a hostile environment finds its own "victim".

Can you do something similar for stainless steel razor blades?

PS
Razor blades are temporary solution, since they have only thin stainless layer.

What’s coming up next? Engraving on a needle?

If corrosion is a problem, I would suggest titanium washer as alternative option.

Why bother with small change? Go straight for gold washers, since it’s the most inert (corrosion is no match for it) metal, and buying it is an investment in itself.

True Casascius coins were supposed to feature an engraved seed-phrase; but not something to be applied as a sticker.

[LoyceV]

Go straight for gold washers, since it’s the most inert (corrosion is no match for it) metal, and buying it is an investment in itself.

Great. Now thiefs will steal your seed phrase even without knowing it's a seed phrase.

[Cricktor]

Why bother with small change? Go straight for gold washers, since it’s the most inert (corrosion is no match for it) metal, and buying it is an investment in itself.

[smartass]
Definitely not easy to source (especially as washers), too expensive, too low melting point, too precious on its own, very likely melts in a house fire.

According to this source https://www.sincere-machining.com/melting-point-of-gold/, these are the expected (lower bound) melting points of common gold alloys by purity (karat scale):

• 24-karat (Pure gold, 99.9%): ~1,064 °C (1,947 °F)
• 18-karat (75% gold): ~926 °C (1,699 °F)
• 14-karat (58% gold): ~879 °C (1,614 °F)
[/smartass]

Yes, I know, you were joking.    Let's go for Platinum washers: more expensive, more inert, higher melting point than Titanium, less conspicuous color than gold! And don't ask for Tungsten, not "noble" enough.

[LoyceV]

Go straight for gold washers

[smartass]
Definitely not easy to source (especially as washers)

I'll make a deal: if someone gives me a 2 mm thick plate of pure gold, I'll drill out the washers for them. All I ask is to keep the saw dust.

[DireWolfM14]

I wouldn't consider such "coating" as very resistant to all kinds of harsh environment for stainless steel. I wouldn't want to expose my metal washers with my mnemonic words to anything harsh. I prefer Titanium over stainless steel anyway and Titanium washers aren't terribly expensive, have a higher melting point and are more inert than stainless steel.

4140 Chromoly washers are common, and have melting point of over 1400° C.  Although the corrosion resistance of steel is rather poor, there is a practical solution (pun intended) that can be applied at home.  Parkerization is the treatment applied to almost all military grade rifles, and is significantly more corrosion resistant than untreated steel.  It builds a thin layer of manganese phosphate on the surface of steels that slightly hardens the shell, and since it chemically bonds to the steel, it protects against rust if done right.

Parkerizing solutions are easy to source, and the whole process is very affordable if you already have an outdoor twin-burner stove.  I don't recommend doing it in-doors.  Although not harmful to your health, the process requires boiling the solution and the steam can discolor typical household items found in a kitchen.

[m2017]

Great. Now thiefs will steal your seed phrase even without knowing it's a seed phrase.

Well, if you leave a gold washer out in plain sight where it’s gleaming brightly, someone is bound to steal it, and that thief might not necessarily be an outsider.

An intruder doesn’t have time for an extensive search, so they’ll typically just grab whatever is left lying around in plain view.

You could always disguise a gold item by blending it into your decor or everyday household objects. The only catch is making sure you don’t forget about it yourself, and that you’re still able to track down your own "hidden treasure" later on.

[smartass]
Definitely not easy to source (especially as washers), too expensive, too low melting point, too precious on its own, very likely melts in a house fire.

What’s stopping from casting your own washers (or any other shape)? You can buy material from a pawn shop as scrap metal, though keep in mind that the fineness (purity) of gold items can vary, which, in a sense, already counts as an investment (and a form of diversification).

I am, of course, exaggerating a bit, but it is always possible to find an optimal (accessible) solution (in terms of materials and formats for storing seed-phrase) that is tailored to each individual’s specific needs.

Yes, I know, you were joking.  Grin  Let's go for Platinum washers: more expensive, more inert, higher melting point than Titanium, less conspicuous color than gold! And don't ask for Tungsten, not "noble" enough.

Why not? It might be a bit harder to track down this metal, though. But then again, the advantages mentioned more than make up for any extra effort.

I'll make a deal: if someone gives me a 2 mm thick plate of pure gold, I'll drill out the washers for them. All I ask is to keep the saw dust.

Aim higher: take the leftover pieces from the cutting process, too.

4140 Chromoly washers are common, and have melting point of over 1400° C.  Although the corrosion resistance of steel is rather poor, there is a practical solution (pun intended) that can be applied at home.  Parkerization is the treatment applied to almost all military grade rifles, and is significantly more corrosion resistant than untreated steel.  It builds a thin layer of manganese phosphate on the surface of steels that slightly hardens the shell, and since it chemically bonds to the steel, it protects against rust if done right.

Parkerizing solutions are easy to source, and the whole process is very affordable if you already have an outdoor twin-burner stove.  I don't recommend doing it in-doors.  Although not harmful to your health, the process requires boiling the solution and the steam can discolor typical household items found in a kitchen.

You’re right; one can look to industrial practices used to protect metals from corrosion. I believe galvanization, using an electrolyte to deposit a thin layer of another metal (for instance, gold, which would reduce the amount of that expensive metal needed) has, it seems, already been mentioned. In short, there are many methods, and the choice depends on your skills and the availability of materials \ tools.