Foundation Passport Official Thread

[foundationdvcs]

Foundation Passport Official Thread

Hi all, and welcome to the official thread for Foundation's Passport "Batch 2"! We'll use this thread to drop updates, stay on topic of questions and comments, and get feedback from all of you on your usage of Passport.

What is Passport?

Passport is the new standard for Bitcoin hardware wallets, built from the ground up to make Bitcoin self-custody more approachable without sacrificing security or features.

Passport brings best-in-class user experience via QR code scanning and microSD transaction signing, making it easy to use Passport at home or on the go with the wallet of your choice. We've also built an easy-to-use companion app for Passport in Envoy, a mobile app that helps you manage Passport, perform firmware updates, watch your wallets, and send and receive Bitcoin transactions easily.

Images



Key Features

• Airgapped security with both microSD and camera for QR code scanning
• Full T9 keyboard + directional pad to make PIN entry, passphrase entry, and navigation of the UI simple and fast
• Stunning color, IPS glass display makes it so much easier to navigate, confirm transaction details, and handle QR codes
• Envoy, our mobile companion app that lets you send and receive Bitcoin, manage, and update Passport from anywhere, anytime
• Power-only USB-C to ensure you can charge up easily without fear of compromising device security
• Rechargeable battery, with replacements available widely online in a standard form factor

Links

• Foundation's Website
• Passport, the new standard for Bitcoin hardware wallets
• Envoy, the simple Bitcoin wallet and mobile companion app for Passport
• Passport and Envoy documentation and tutorials

Reviews

• A fantastic and detailed review thread by forum member n0nce
• Reviews Megathread (Twitter)

Where you can find us

• Twitter: @FOUNDATIONdvcs
• Nostr: @Foundation
• Telegram Group Chat
• Email: hello@foundation.xyz

We look forward to hearing more of your feedback and answering any questions you have in this topic as well.

[1715309325]

1715309325

[foundationdvcs]

Firmware Updates

Most recent version: v2.3.0
Blog post: Passport version 2.3.0 is now live!
GitHub release: https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport2/releases/tag/v2.3.0

Release Summary:

We’re beyond thrilled to be able to release Passport firmware v2.3.0, including full Taproot support, revamped passphrase behavior, an all-new address explorer, master seed SeedQR export, 12-word seed phrase support, 12th/24th word generation for advanced users, and native OP_RETURN message viewing and signing.

This release is one of our largest to date and includes a massive amount of new features, improvements, and bug fixes.

[zherbert]

Confirming this is our official account 

[dkbit98]

Quick question - Did you test how durable Passport wallet is, and what happens if it drops on ground?
I am doing some research about this and I want to see how many hardware wallet manufacturers are stress testing their devices for durabllity.

Unrelated with my previous question, if there are roadmap plans and ideas for Future of Passport device please post it here.

PS
I think it's time for Passport to release accessories like skins, cases and other stuff.

[bitmover]

Images

I quoted your image original links but the forum security breaks them

I hosted the images in a different server with a few modifications so they can be seen here:




you can update the original post with the imafes once you have ranked up your account or paid for a Copper Account.
details here

[foundationdvcs]

Quick question - Did you test how durable Passport wallet is, and what happens if it drops on ground?
I am doing some research about this and I want to see how many hardware wallet manufacturers are stress testing their devices for durabllity.

Unrelated with my previous question, if there are roadmap plans and ideas for Future of Passport device please post it here.

PS
I think it's time for Passport to release accessories like skins, cases and other stuff.

We've tested extensively for durability in-house, and one of the reasons we went with the metal frame was to provide drop resistance. The combination of plastic shell + metal frame protect the screen/keys/camera module very well from their functionality being harmed.

We like to play our cards pretty close to the chest for new products until we're ready to announce, but rest assured that we're working hard on another product that is going to break the mold  

We're also working on accessories for our next device for these very reasons. Excited to announce it all when the time is right

you can update the original post with the imafes once you have ranked up your account or paid for a Copper Account.
details here

Ah, thank you bitmover! Just paid for Copper to enable us to post images, will get that updated using another image host that's allowed here!

[hugeblack]

It looks great, I will read more about it, especially since it looks like an old phone, but through a quick review of the evaluation in the forum, I hoped that this would be stainless steel, or at least waterproof and fireproof, so that it could be relied upon.


Since the device looks like a phone, is it possible to hide the logo (make it inside) and an update on the interface so that it looks like it works as an old broken phone (in case of theft)

[foundationdvcs]

It looks great, I will read more about it, especially since it looks like an old phone, but through a quick review of the evaluation in the forum, I hoped that this would be stainless steel, or at least waterproof and fireproof, so that it could be relied upon.

Hey hugeblack, definitely understand the desire for a steel backup, but that would definitely raise price for everyone when not everyone want's to backup on steel.

Thankfully, as it's just a standard 20-digit PIN or 24 seed words, you can easily back it up onto your favorite steel backup system without issues.

Since the device looks like a phone, is it possible to hide the logo (make it inside) and an update on the interface so that it looks like it works as an old broken phone (in case of theft)

We actually had a "Snake" game mode as a pseudo-phone mode on the original Passport, but when we rebuilt the firmware for Batch 2 we didn't add it back in. A dummy phone mode is definitely on our to-do list still, though, and we'll explore bringing that to our users in future versions!

[dkbit98]

We've tested extensively for durability in-house, and one of the reasons we went with the metal frame was to provide drop resistance. The combination of plastic shell + metal frame protect the screen/keys/camera module very well from their functionality being harmed.

So you didn't experience any serious damage to screen or vital parts of devices during this durability testing?
It would be cool if you could reveal more information about that, but I understand if it's only for internal use.
I think we need to have some guy like JerryRigEverything ^{(check out his youtube channel)} but only for testing hardware wallets  

We're also working on accessories for our next device for these very reasons. Excited to announce it all when the time is right

Now you got me interested, just don't go with BlackBerry style device please  

[sad-error]

Any ideas why I'd be getting a "memory allocation failed" exception when signing a transaction imported from the qr code - importing from the sd card works fine.

Traceback looks something like this

Code:

File "flows/flow.py", line 139, in run File "flows/sign_psdbt_qr_flow.py", line 95 in show_signed_transaction MemoryError: memory allocation failed, allocating 5859 bytes

[foundationdvcs]

Any ideas why I'd be getting a "memory allocation failed" exception when signing a transaction imported from the qr code - importing from the sd card works fine.

That usually happens when the PSBT you're trying to sign is quite large/complex. What version firmware are you running? If less than v2.0.6, please update to that as we've made quite a few quality of life improvements in it.

We're also about to release a beta for v2.0.7 that has a completely reworked transaction parsing memory approach that will allow for signing *much* larger transactions via QR, but we do still recommend microSD for larger transactions as the process is much faster and easier that way.

[sad-error]

Any ideas why I'd be getting a "memory allocation failed" exception when signing a transaction imported from the qr code - importing from the sd card works fine.

That usually happens when the PSBT you're trying to sign is quite large/complex. What version firmware are you running? If less than v2.0.6, please update to that as we've made quite a few quality of life improvements in it.

We're also about to release a beta for v2.0.7 that has a completely reworked transaction parsing memory approach that will allow for signing *much* larger transactions via QR, but we do still recommend microSD for larger transactions as the process is much faster and easier that way.

it's 2.0.6. Yes, the psbt is likely quite big as it's 3/6 multisig, but coldcard has absolutely no problems with it so I would expect passport to be the same.

[foundationdvcs]

We've tested extensively for durability in-house, and one of the reasons we went with the metal frame was to provide drop resistance. The combination of plastic shell + metal frame protect the screen/keys/camera module very well from their functionality being harmed.

So you didn't experience any serious damage to screen or vital parts of devices during this durability testing?
It would be cool if you could reveal more information about that, but I understand if it's only for internal use.
I think we need to have some guy like JerryRigEverything ^{(check out his youtube channel)} but only for testing hardware wallets  

We're also working on accessories for our next device for these very reasons. Excited to announce it all when the time is right

Now you got me interested, just don't go with BlackBerry style device please  

Will double check with the team on what info we can share around that and get back to you!

And yes, don't worry about that

it's 2.0.6. Yes, the psbt is likely quite big as it's 3/6 multisig, but coldcard has absolutely no problems with it so I would expect passport to be the same.

Ah, does make more sense in that case, then. Definitely use microSD (as you would with ColdCard) for now for transactions with that large of a quorum, but we'd love to hear back from you on how v2.0.7 works for you once we release it!

I'll post the release here as soon as it's available with release notes etc.

[Welsh]

We've tested extensively for durability in-house, and one of the reasons we went with the metal frame was to provide drop resistance. The combination of plastic shell + metal frame protect the screen/keys/camera module very well from their functionality being harmed.

Might I ask, whether you're testing to a certain specification, and standard or are you just doing your own tests for durability? For example, certain mobile phone manufactures cater to the MIL-STD-810G specification. I tend to like pretty rugged devices, and I think for a hardware wallet it's definitely something to consider since it protects against certain situations which might arise. For example, a few discussions recently above the earthquakes, and safe guarding your seeds or hardware wallets popped up. While, I'm definitely not expecting it to be that substantial for obvious reasons, it's definitely something that other manufacturers don't seem to be targeting.

[foundationdvcs]

I don't plan to buy Passport. But i have few question about shipping,
1. I found an article which state "free shipping within the USA.", but what's shipping cost for other contry?
2. Does your shipping provider offer service which pay custom/import fee on behalf of the receiver?

1. We can't estimate it for every country in one page, so you'll get the estimate when you're checking out and put in your country/address. It varies widely, of course!
2. It does not, we use standard international shipping. If you want to simplify the customs/import process, using one of our resellers (if there is one local) is usually the best option.

Link to page about Envoy is broken.

Thanks for that, fixed! Getting used to the syntax here 

Might I ask, whether you're testing to a certain specification, and standard or are you just doing your own tests for durability? For example, certain mobile phone manufactures cater to the MIL-STD-810G specification. I tend to like pretty rugged devices, and I think for a hardware wallet it's definitely something to consider since it protects against certain situations which might arise. For example, a few discussions recently above the earthquakes, and safe guarding your seeds or hardware wallets popped up. While, I'm definitely not expecting it to be that substantial for obvious reasons, it's definitely something that other manufacturers don't seem to be targeting.

On current devices we've just been doing our own tests as normally these devices aren't an "every day carry" type of device, but we did want to ensure they were rugged enough to withstand normal use for a HWW. On future devices we'll explore testing to specific standards, will bring this up to the team today as a reference!

[foundationdvcs]

Now that we're active on Bitcoin Talk, we wanted to include the awesome community here in an opportunity to beta test new Passport firmware releases and provide feedback.

We're happy to announce that the public beta for version 2.0.7 is available now on Github:

Passport v2.0.7 Firmware (Beta 7)

NOTE: This is a Beta version of Passport firmware. You must install the beta pubkey (attached in GitHub) using the Settings -> Advanced -> Developer PubKey menu item before you can install this beta. If you are not comfortable with this, please wait for the official release, which should be available shortly. Detailed instructions for this process can be found here.

Mainly usability improvements in this one, full details of which can be found in the GitHub change log. Most notable are:

• Improved memory management when signing via QR codes (sign larger transactions)
• Added the ability to export existing multisig configs via QR or SD card (Passport can now act as an additional backup of the wallet data which can be super useful in disaster recovery scenarios)
• Improved transaction detail display when conducting self spends

Please test it out (if you're comfortable with a beta release) and report back with any issues, feedback, or suggestions you have! The official release should go live in about 1wk, pending any issues that are discovered in the public beta testing.

[dkbit98]

Please test it out (if you're comfortable with a beta release) and report back with any issues, feedback, or suggestions you have! The official release should go live in about 1wk, pending any issues that are discovered in the public beta testing.

I am expecting n0nce will be testing this new firmware, but I like new ability to export multisig configs with QR codes or SD cards.

Maybe you can tell us more about new integration with Bitcoinkeeper app, you posted about that with your twitter account.
I was following them for some time and it looks interesting for multisig setup but I never tested it myself, they support many hardware wallets.

[n0nce]

Please test it out (if you're comfortable with a beta release) and report back with any issues, feedback, or suggestions you have! The official release should go live in about 1wk, pending any issues that are discovered in the public beta testing.

I am expecting n0nce will be testing this new firmware, but I like new ability to export multisig configs with QR codes or SD cards.

Yes, I do like to test their firmwares; for instance here I tried the v2.0.5 beta to see whether the camera was working better.
Right now, I'm running the v2.0.6 release version and camera scanning is now amazing + looping through the main menu is quite convenient.
I don't know when I'll have the time to thoroughly test v2.0.7, since it seems more focused on multisig and that takes me more time to test, since I've got to gather my various wallets and such.

[foundationdvcs]

Maybe you can tell us more about new integration with Bitcoinkeeper app, you posted about that with your twitter account.
I was following them for some time and it looks interesting for multisig setup but I never tested it myself, they support many hardware wallets.

Sure! You can find all of our docs on the integration here, but the core of it is that Bitcoin Keeper is a multisig-centric wallet with a focus on helping users setup tiers of Bitcoin storage (including singlesig and multisig) with a proper plan for inheritance long-term. They have a pretty clean UI and UX, and have been great to work with on the integration front. They've also done good work integrating the latest interoperable standards for multisig, which has been helpful for us as well as we're laser-focused on interoperability and embracing emerging standards in the Bitcoin space.

We also did an interview with them on our podcast, Journey to Sovereignty, that you can find here:

EP #5 - Is multisig for everyone?

Edit: Realized I didn't even link their website! Here is their website with plenty more info on their approach and implementation:

Bitcoin Keeper, your private bitcoin vault

[RickDeckard]

1. We can't estimate it for every country in one page, so you'll get the estimate when you're checking out and put in your country/address. It varies widely, of course!
2. It does not, we use standard international shipping. If you want to simplify the customs/import process, using one of our resellers (if there is one local) is usually the best option.
 did want to ensure they were rugged enough to withstand normal use for a HWW. On future devices we'll explore testing to specific standards, will bring this up to the team today as a reference!

Regarding both topics that ETFbitcoin brought up, I would like to highlight[1] my initial discussion with @zherbert regarding the way shipping costs are calculated when talking about other countries besides USA and how (perhaps) it could be improved:

Currently we just display the estimated import tax, but we don't charge the customer. The customer then needs to pay it directly from UPS (or whatever carrier they select) upon package delivery.

I think there is a way where we could pay the import tax on behalf of the customer, and therefore charge them for the estimated tax during checkout. I'll explore if this is possible, because I like your idea. The only downside would be if the estimate is consistently lower than the actual tax; that would eat into our margins and we aren't quite as big as Amazon

So while the client is making the purchase he was to directly pay it to UPS instead to Foundation as a company? I may be thinking this wrong and I would love your input but, from a user perspective, this operation seems like it's a bit confuse - If I'm willing to pay for such a premium for such a device (considering the offers in the market), the least that I would expect is that I would pay whatever had to pay to Foundation and then the order would eventually come to my house - no need to make two separate transactions, one for you and one for UPS. I may be wrong on the following assumption, but doesn't it mean that by paying directly to UPS it makes me the one responsible for the package, thus it would be me who would have to argue with them if something went bad as opposed to being Foundation the ones responsible to care and making sure that the package arrives with no problems?

[1]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5421713.msg61764293#msg61764293

[dkbit98]

Sure! You can find all of our docs on the integration here, but the core of it is that Bitcoin Keeper is a multisig-centric wallet with a focus on helping users setup tiers of Bitcoin storage (including singlesig and multisig) with a proper plan for inheritance long-term. They have a pretty clean UI and UX, and have been great to work with on the integration front. They've also done good work integrating the latest interoperable standards for multisig, which has been helpful for us as well as we're laser-focused on interoperability and embracing emerging standards in the Bitcoin space.

Problem I have with Bitcoin Keeper is that I can't find source code for their app, so I assume they are closed source.
There is bithyve github page, that is their parrent company I think, but I can't find information for Bitcoin Keeper there.
I prefer using open source alternative whenever I can, and I know this isn't always possible, but I think I saw similar apps that can be used as part of multisig setup.

[foundationdvcs]

Sure! You can find all of our docs on the integration here, but the core of it is that Bitcoin Keeper is a multisig-centric wallet with a focus on helping users setup tiers of Bitcoin storage (including singlesig and multisig) with a proper plan for inheritance long-term. They have a pretty clean UI and UX, and have been great to work with on the integration front. They've also done good work integrating the latest interoperable standards for multisig, which has been helpful for us as well as we're laser-focused on interoperability and embracing emerging standards in the Bitcoin space.

Problem I have with Bitcoin Keeper is that I can't find source code for their app, so I assume they are closed source.
There is bithyve github page, that is their parrent company I think, but I can't find information for Bitcoin Keeper there.
I prefer using open source alternative whenever I can, and I know this isn't always possible, but I think I saw similar apps that can be used as part of multisig setup.

They're supposed to be releasing the source code this month, they were waiting for their mainnet release and code cleanup, but I agree that we should be wary of closed source apps in control of our funds!

Definitely understand waiting until the source is available and has been out for a bit.

[foundationdvcs]

Hi all, a couple of updates for you on the community front:

We've released our first video walking through Passport and what it is for broader marketing, you can have a look here:

Meet Passport: The new standard for Bitcoin hardware wallets. Shipping now!

We've also joined the new protocol and social media platform Nostr, and have setup our account there. Be sure to follow us with our NIP-05 ID or public key below if you're on Nostr as it will be a go-to for us moving forward!

Code: (NIP-05 ID)

foundationdevices.com

Code: (npub (public key))

npub1s0vtkgej33n7ec4d7ycxmwt78up8hpfa30d0yfksrshq7t82mchqynpq6j

If you want to learn more about Nostr you can read our latest blog post, "Privacy on Nostr."

[Pmalek]

Nice video. I like how you took a shot at Silicon Valley Bank there in the beginning.
The animation with the guy standing at the edge of the cliff looks great. Did your team create that or is it from a video game and you just added the Passport in the guy's hand? It looks really well made.

[foundationdvcs]

Nice video. I like how you took a shot at Silicon Valley Bank there in the beginning.
The animation with the guy standing at the edge of the cliff looks great. Did your team create that or is it from a video game and you just added the Passport in the guy's hand? It looks really well made.

Thanks, seemed a timely addition as we've been working on this, so much out there pushing people to using Bitcoin, and self-custody is the only way they truly gain freedom through it.

We did the entire video from scratch alongside a contracted content creator in the space, glad to hear it landed well 

[foundationdvcs]

Hi all,

We've just released Passport firmware version 2.0.7!

In version 2.0.7, we’ve reworked memory management when signing transactions from the ground up, drastically improving handling of larger than normal transactions via QR codes. We’ve also added the ability to delete files from microSD directly on Passport, allow you to export multisig configs directly via QR and microSD, and cleaned up a few small bugs.

Read more in our latest blog post: https://foundationdevices.com/2023/03/passport-version-2-0-7-is-now-live/

[sad-error]

I can confirm that signing from QR codes now works flawlessly. Great job!

[foundationdvcs]

I can confirm that signing from QR codes now works flawlessly. Great job!

Love to hear that! Please don't hesitate to reach out if you have any issues or feedback in the future as well 

[RickDeckard]

@foundationdvcs since some time has passed since my previous reply[1], I was wondering if you guys had any opportunity to study/analyze the way that how an European customer pays for the fees for shipping to his/her address?

I've also took a look at your website and found that, besides the English language, there isn't an option to change the website language. As a way to penetrate in more markets - at least regarding information - have you considered hiring translators to increase the reach of your website? I might be biased on this one but there are a great quantity of good translators right here on bitcointalk[2].

As a final question, what can you share with us regarding what's Foundation Roadmap for 2023? Another product to complement the current lineup or perhaps make a gap year and improve the device you have at the moment?
[1]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5441422.msg61902084#msg61902084
[2]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5442314.0

[foundationdvcs]

@foundationdvcs since some time has passed since my previous reply[1], I was wondering if you guys had any opportunity to study/analyze the way that how an European customer pays for the fees for shipping to his/her address?

I've also took a look at your website and found that, besides the English language, there isn't an option to change the website language. As a way to penetrate in more markets - at least regarding information - have you considered hiring translators to increase the reach of your website? I might be biased on this one but there are a great quantity of good translators right here on bitcointalk[2].

Thanks for how much thought you've put into that! We haven't been able to address that yet, I'm opening an issue internally now to be sure it doesn't fall off our radar moving forward.

As far as translations, we are working on a complete rebuild of the site from the ground up, and translations are going to be much easier with the new approach. I'll be sure that website translations get captured in the spec as we build, and will reach out to translators (thanks for the link!) at that point. We're also planning on translating Envoy in the near term, but due to device memory constraints we likely won't add translations to Passport Batch 2.

As a final question, what can you share with us regarding what's Foundation Roadmap for 2023? Another product to complement the current lineup or perhaps make a gap year and improve the device you have at the moment?
[1]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5441422.msg61902084#msg61902084
[2]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5442314.0

We like to keep things a bit closer to the chest when it comes to roadmap, but rest assured we have big things on the software and hardware front in 2023. Software is just over the horizon, hardware is advancing rapidly and we can't wait to show what we're working on to you all later this year.

[foundationdvcs]

Hi all,

We're thrilled to announce a major new open beta of Envoy, our mobile Bitcoin wallet and companion app for Passport. With this open beta we’re greatly expanding what Envoy is capable of, making it a feature-rich Bitcoin hot wallet in addition to its existing role as a watch-only wallet and management app for Passport. Hot wallet support in Envoy opens up financial sovereignty through our tools to many more users and lays the groundwork for other privacy and security features we’re building behind the scenes.

You can read up on it and find links to the app stores and direct downloads in our new blog post:

https://foundationdevices.com/2023/03/envoy-wallet-open-beta/

Two current gaps to note:

• Passphrase wallets are not currently supported. We do plan on supporting passphrases with the public release, but are currently working on implementing a smooth user experience around passphrases and how they interact with the auto-backup feature.
• Deleting only the hot wallet is not currently possible. You can still reset the app by uninstalling/reinstalling or clearing app data, but please note that this will currently reset the entire app, including Passport accounts etc.

A quick tip on testing: if you're using Android, you can install this beta version of Envoy in a new profile or work profile to allow you to keep your current Envoy app untouched as you test out all of the new bells and whistles.

Please feel free to drop any feedback here as you test it out!

[RickDeckard]

(...)

Thank you for the detailed reply to both of my questions. I'm really looking forward - and I'm sure I'm not the only one - of seeing your roadmap later this year. Please do keep us posted (perhaps giving us - the community - a little bit of a sneak peak before officially disclosuing the map? ).

On a second note, have you considered creating a Reddit sub for your customers/community? Big hardware wallet companies such as Trezor[1] and Ledger[2] have them and it is a great way to directly interact with the community and users that probably don't even know this forum exists. While I believe you'll have a greater technical feedback here (and more passionate one), you'll always find more interaction with a larger scale user base in Reddit. If you do decide to follow this endeavor, I've made a brand new account and created the sub r/foundationdvcs (currently set as private) as a way to prevent anyone to claim it before you. r/Foundation already exists so if you decide to follow this route just send me a PM and I'll add your account to the moderation and shortly after I remove myself from moderating it.
[1]https://libreddit.spike.codes/r/TREZOR/
[2]https://libreddit.spike.codes/r/ledgerwallet/

[foundationdvcs]

(...)

Thank you for the detailed reply to both of my questions. I'm really looking forward - and I'm sure I'm not the only one - of seeing your roadmap later this year. Please do keep us posted (perhaps giving us - the community - a little bit of a sneak peak before officially disclosuing the map? ).

On a second note, have you considered creating a Reddit sub for your customers/community? Big hardware wallet companies such as Trezor[1] and Ledger[2] have them and it is a great way to directly interact with the community and users that probably don't even know this forum exists. While I believe you'll have a greater technical feedback here (and more passionate one), you'll always find more interaction with a larger scale user base in Reddit. If you do decide to follow this endeavor, I've made a brand new account and created the sub r/foundationdvcs (currently set as private) as a way to prevent anyone to claim it before you. r/Foundation already exists so if you decide to follow this route just send me a PM and I'll add your account to the moderation and shortly after I remove myself from moderating it.
[1]https://libreddit.spike.codes/r/TREZOR/
[2]https://libreddit.spike.codes/r/ledgerwallet/

We actually are already on Reddit but honestly haven't put much focus into it so far:

https://www.reddit.com/r/FoundationDevices/

Will be sure we push updates and blog posts etc to there as we go along!

[RickDeckard]

We actually are already on Reddit but honestly haven't put much focus into it so far:

https://www.reddit.com/r/FoundationDevices/

Will be sure we push updates and blog posts etc to there as we go along!

Shame on me for not looking further I guess. I've looked into your official website[1] and didn't find any mention of it, hence why I went into a hurry to try to secure the sub. I'm glad that you already have it! I think it would help spread awareness if you could, for example, add the Reddit link right after the bottom of the page where you have all the other communities (Twitter, GitHub, Telegram...).
[1]https://foundationdevices.com/

[foundationdvcs]

We actually are already on Reddit but honestly haven't put much focus into it so far:

https://www.reddit.com/r/FoundationDevices/

Will be sure we push updates and blog posts etc to there as we go along!

Shame on me for not looking further I guess. I've looked into your official website[1] and didn't find any mention of it, hence why I went into a hurry to try to secure the sub. I'm glad that you already have it! I think it would help spread awareness if you could, for example, add the Reddit link right after the bottom of the page where you have all the other communities (Twitter, GitHub, Telegram...).
[1]https://foundationdevices.com/

Will do that now, not sure why it's not there to be quite honest!

[o_e_l_e_o]

Two interesting things I thought I would share.

Firstly: https://nitter.net/FOUNDATIONdvcs/status/1648688276654419969#m
Obviously targeted at the fact that Trezor now support censorship, but they then say they are building their own privacy tools and include the emoji symbol that is used on Twitter when talking about Whirlpool. I wonder what they are planning?

Secondly: https://github.com/mjg-foundation/passport2-monero#monero-firmware
The firmware engineer at Foundation has forked the open source codebase to his own personal GitHub and started some work on open source Monero firmware for Passport devices. Now the real questions is will I be able to dual boot.

[foundationdvcs]

Two interesting things I thought I would share.

Firstly: https://nitter.net/FOUNDATIONdvcs/status/1648688276654419969#m
Obviously targeted at the fact that Trezor now support censorship, but they then say they are building their own privacy tools and include the emoji symbol that is used on Twitter when talking about Whirlpool. I wonder what they are planning?

 

Secondly: https://github.com/mjg-foundation/passport2-monero#monero-firmware
The firmware engineer at Foundation has forked the open source codebase to his own personal GitHub and started some work on open source Monero firmware for Passport devices. Now the real questions is will I be able to dual boot.

I don't believe there would be enough storage space to have both firmware installed at the same time, but installing firmware + restoring backup from microSD would only take a minute or two max. Please note that if this Monero firmware becomes reality it will still not be official or endorsed by Foundation and purely driven by the Monero community.

[n0nce]

Obviously targeted at the fact that Trezor now support censorship

Can you enlighten me? I've been a bit out of the loop, lately.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Such a tease!

I don't believe there would be enough storage space to have both firmware installed at the same time, but installing firmware + restoring backup from microSD would only take a minute or two max. Please note that if this Monero firmware becomes reality it will still not be official or endorsed by Foundation and purely driven by the Monero community.

Yeah, I get that. Also, having thought about it, I actually don't want to be installing software from a community fork on the same device as I use to store my bitcoin. I'd rather use two entirely separate devices for security reasons.

Can you enlighten me? I've been a bit out of the loop, lately.

I figure by your post on the other thread you are now up to speed, but essentially Trezor have implemented Wasabi coinjoins, which directly fund blockchain analysis companies and enforce government blacklists.

[SFR10]

@foundationdvcs
Here are a few notes for using the beta version for a few minutes, as someone who doesn't own a Passport device ^[yet]:

• It'd be nice to have a list of used/unused addresses in conjunction with the ability to sign a message directly from the app.
• Support for other address types ^{[e.g. Taproot would be nice]}.
• I noticed going back and forth between Envoy and any other app would result in a black screen that sometimes lasts around 30 seconds!

[foundationdvcs]

I don't believe there would be enough storage space to have both firmware installed at the same time, but installing firmware + restoring backup from microSD would only take a minute or two max. Please note that if this Monero firmware becomes reality it will still not be official or endorsed by Foundation and purely driven by the Monero community.

Yeah, I get that. Also, having thought about it, I actually don't want to be installing software from a community fork on the same device as I use to store my bitcoin. I'd rather use two entirely separate devices for security reasons.

I expect this will be the route most will take who want support for both.

@foundationdvcs
Here are a few notes for using the beta version for a few minutes, as someone who doesn't own a Passport device ^[yet]:

• It'd be nice to have a list of used/unused addresses in conjunction with the ability to sign a message directly from the app.
• Support for other address types ^{[e.g. Taproot would be nice]}.
• I noticed going back and forth between Envoy and any other app would result in a black screen that sometimes lasts around 30 seconds!

1. We have a roadmap issue internally for this and already have UX built out for it, so I wouldn't expect that to be too far down the pipe!
2. You can pay to Taproot addresses already, actually, but receive support will come alongside Passport full Taproot support in the near future. That also is currently a WIP and a high priority for the next major release of both Envoy and Passport.
3. Very odd! We have seen this very infrequently coming from the lockscreen and are working on a fix, but you see it also coming just from multitasking in other apps? If possible, could you record this happening and share details on your OS (as much as you're comfortable with) in an email to hello@foundationdevices.com? We'd love to help you get to the bottom of it, and your help would make it a faster process 

[SFR10]

3. Very odd! We have seen this very infrequently coming from the lockscreen and are working on a fix, but you see it also coming just from multitasking in other apps?

Yes, I also experienced it while I was multitasking yesterday, but no matter how hard I tried to reproduce it today, it didn't recur ^{[a bit strange]} so it must be connected to the other rare issue that you mentioned...

• If possible, could you record this happening and share details on your OS (as much as you're comfortable with) in an email to hello@foundationdevices.com? We'd love to help you get to the bottom of it, and your help would make it a faster process 
  

  Sure... I'll do it as soon as it happens again, but until then, all I can share is the details of my OS ^{[Android 13 (One UI 5.1)]}

While I was using it with the "Testnet earlier", I noticed we can only copy the transaction ID, but not see the other details ^{[I'm not sure if this is also part of the roadmap or not]}.
^{BTW, a customized fee option (apart from the Standard and Boost options) would be nice as well.}

[foundationdvcs]

While I was using it with the "Testnet earlier", I noticed we can only copy the transaction ID, but not see the other details ^{[I'm not sure if this is also part of the roadmap or not]}.
^{BTW, a customized fee option (apart from the Standard and Boost options) would be nice as well.}

Thanks for the info, will pass that on to the support team 

As for your other requests:

1. We have another big feature set WIP for hot wallet that will include a detailed transaction screen, but you're correct that for now it just allows copying the TXID.
2. It's likely we won't offer manual fee selection in the short term as the wallet is geared towards newer users and we want to keep things simple and easy to understand, but we are reworking the way that fee selection works a bit and giving clearer options in a coming update.

[foundationdvcs]

We're happy to announce that the public beta for version 2.1.0 is available now on Github:

Passport v2.1.0 Firmware (Beta 6)

NOTE: This is a Beta version of Passport firmware. You must install the beta pubkey (attached in GitHub) using the Settings -> Advanced -> Developer PubKey menu item before you can install this beta. If you are not comfortable with this, please wait for the official release, which should be available shortly. Detailed instructions for this process can be found here.

In version 2.1.0, we’ve leveraged all of the background work in recent versions to build out some amazing new features for you, including back-porting v2.1.0 firmware to Founder’s Edition, sending to Taproot addresses, a Key Manager Extension for BIP-85 and Nostr key support and export, and BIP 85 SeedQR exports.

It would be especially valuable to get detailed feedback from anyone willing to help out on the new features and on the general firmware for Founder's Edition as this is a huge jump, bringing parity to our original device.

For the full change log you can visit Github.

Please test it out (if you're comfortable with a beta release) and report back with any issues, feedback, or suggestions you have! The official release should go live in about 1wk, pending any issues that are discovered in the public beta testing.

[n0nce]

We're happy to announce that the public beta for version 2.1.0 is available now on Github:

Passport v2.1.0 Firmware (Beta 6)

NOTE: This is a Beta version of Passport firmware. You must install the beta pubkey (attached in GitHub) using the Settings -> Advanced -> Developer PubKey menu item before you can install this beta. If you are not comfortable with this, please wait for the official release, which should be available shortly. Detailed instructions for this process can be found here.

In version 2.1.0, we’ve leveraged all of the background work in recent versions to build out some amazing new features for you, including back-porting v2.1.0 firmware to Founder’s Edition, sending to Taproot addresses, a Key Manager Extension for BIP-85 and Nostr key support and export, and BIP 85 SeedQR exports.

It would be especially valuable to get detailed feedback from anyone willing to help out on the new features and on the general firmware for Founder's Edition as this is a huge jump, bringing parity to our original device.

For the full change log you can visit Github.

Please test it out (if you're comfortable with a beta release) and report back with any issues, feedback, or suggestions you have! The official release should go live in about 1wk, pending any issues that are discovered in the public beta testing.

This is exciting news! In my original review of Passport FE, I mentioned it was important for me that the device would keep getting updates for years to come. Great to see that it's finally happening - I was almost getting worried..

GitHub has no repository for the new firmware, which makes me hope they run the same one; thus reducing codebase to maintain + elongating FE update support.

However, it seems to take longer than expected to back-port Passport v2 features to FE? Or did it only take this long to get them to feature-parity in the first place, but they'll be in sync from now on?

I'm referring to...

Note that there might be an initial delay of a few weeks in releasing the first FE version of this new code, but after that my intention is that new firmware versions for the two devices get released simultaneously.

[foundationdvcs]

However, it seems to take longer than expected to back-port Passport v2 features to FE? Or did it only take this long to get them to feature-parity in the first place, but they'll be in sync from now on?

The long lead-up for this was due to synchronizing the code-base, moving forward they'll both use the passport2 repo and share firmware releases, features, etc.

Total parity from here on out is the plan now that we've laid the groundwork!

[dkbit98]

Someone decided to fork Passport code and enable separate support for monero, and I don't see anything wrong with that, unless it takes away dev time from working on improving BTC code and fixing bugs.
This all resulted in one more of NVK episodes, but I think you guys nailed it with latest blog post from Zach Herbert, so I have to post it here, as An Open Letter to NVK and Coldcard:
https://www.zherbert.com/an-open-letter-to-nvk-and-coldcard/

Maybe people with old version Passport devices (like n0nce) can test this unofficial firmware when it gets released:   
https://github.com/mjg-foundation/passport2-monero

[foundationdvcs]

Someone decided to fork Passport code and enable separate support for monero, and I don't see anything wrong with that, unless it takes away dev time from working on improving BTC code and fixing bugs.

Yes, and just to be clear this is a community fork and not officially from us. No plans at this time to have an official firmware for current devices, but in theory this will end up being unofficial firmware for at least Batch 2 (and maybe Founder's Edition) if enough devs rally around it! Beauty of true free and open-source projects is they can spinoff in many directions 

Maybe people with old version Passport devices (like n0nce) can test this unofficial firmware when it gets released:   
https://github.com/mjg-foundation/passport2-monero

I believe this will be focused on Batch 2 devices, but it may also end up supporting FE as well. Unclear at this point.

[n0nce]

This all resulted in one more of NVK episodes, but I think you guys nailed it with latest blog post from Zach Herbert, so I have to post it here, as An Open Letter to NVK and Coldcard:
https://www.zherbert.com/an-open-letter-to-nvk-and-coldcard/

Good read, thanks.

Maybe people with old version Passport devices (like n0nce) can test this unofficial firmware when it gets released:   
https://github.com/mjg-foundation/passport2-monero

Sure, I can give it a shot, if there's interest for it! As far as I can tell, they only just started with this fork, so it should take a while. Many aspects of Monero are quite different (the cryptography in particular), which should require massive changes.

In the meantime, I downloaded v2.1.0-beta-6-founders and give it a shot on the weekend.

[DireWolfM14]

No plans at this time to have an official firmware for current devices

That's too bad.  I really love my Batch 2, and I am very much a bitcoin maximalist, but I do end up holding several thousands of dollars worth of monero from time to time.  I promise, that will be only altcoin I ever ask you to implement!

[foundationdvcs]

The latest version of Passport firmware, v2.1.0, has been released!

Please note that this is our largest release in some time and also brings Founder's Edition up to date with Batch 2 devices, unifying our firmware. As this is such a large update, we'd love for you all to test it as much as you can before we announce it more widely.

Highlights of this release:

- Backporting v2.1.0 firmware to Founder’s Edition
- Sending to Taproot addresses
- A new Key Manager Extension for BIP 85 and Nostr key support and export
- BIP 85 SeedQR exports

For the full release notes, browse Github or read our blog post below:

https://foundationdevices.com/2023/05/passport-version-2-1-0-is-now-live/

NOTE: Since we are now releasing both firmware files from the same repo, the file naming has changed slightly. "Batch 2" devices use the same naming scheme for firmware as before:

Code:

v2.1.0-passport.bin

but Founder's Edition is now named explicitly to avoid confusion:

Code:

v2.1.0-founders-passport.bin

[dkbit98]

- Backporting v2.1.0 firmware to Founder’s Edition

I think owners of old Founder's Edition will be happy hearing this.
Do you still have some of those old outlet devices in stock?

- Sending to Taproot addresses

Is Passport wallet now fully supporting Taproot format address both for receiving and sending?
If you can confirm that I can move on and add it on my topic List of Wallets supporting Taproot:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5371499.0

This would be fifth hardware wallet with Taproot support after Ledger, Trezor, BitBox02 andOneKey.

[foundationdvcs]

- Backporting v2.1.0 firmware to Founder’s Edition

I think owners of old Founder's Edition will be happy hearing this.
Do you still have some of those old outlet devices in stock?

Sadly no, though I think a few resellers still have a small quantity in stock last I checked!

https://foundationdevices.com/resellers/

- Sending to Taproot addresses

Is Passport wallet now fully supporting Taproot format address both for receiving and sending?
If you can confirm that I can move on and add it on my topic List of Wallets supporting Taproot:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5371499.0

This would be fifth hardware wallet with Taproot support after Ledger, Trezor, BitBox02 andOneKey.

No, in this release it is just p2tr (spending to Taproot addresses) but does not support receiving to Taproot addresses or spending Taproot outputs. That is slated for our next major release and is already actively in dev! We'll combine shipping that with full Taproot support in Envoy (which currently also has simple p2tr support and not full receive/spend).

[satscraper]

Can not get why Foundation has decided to not  store the 25th-word-extension for SEED and forced users to enter that password each time after rebooting device.

I am using that password as the second security layer for my funds and seeing such solution as very inconvenient approach.

In this regard, what is the press-number-expectancy for buttons on  the board of Passport? In other words, how many pressing does the button  endure   before it goes to out-of-commission state?

[foundationdvcs]

Can not get why Foundation has decided to not  store the 25th-word-extension for SEED and forced users to enter that password each time after rebooting device.

I am using that password as the second security layer for my funds and seeing such solution as very inconvenient approach.

This is so that it actually provides an additional layer of security for your funds on Passport. If we stored the passphrase on the device, anyone with the PIN would be able to steal funds and the extra security of your passphrase would be pointless! It's a very intentional security decision to require it on each bootup.

In this regard, what is the press-number-expectancy for buttons on  the board of Passport? In other words, how many pressing does the button  endure   before it goes to out-of-commission state?

I don't have a hard number for you, but AFAIK we have had zero units with failed keypads due to use to date and did extensive in-house testing before shipping the first Passport.

[satscraper]

Can not get why Foundation has decided to not  store the 25th-word-extension for SEED and forced users to enter that password each time after rebooting device.

I am using that password as the second security layer for my funds and seeing such solution as very inconvenient approach.

This is so that it actually provides an additional layer of security for your funds on Passport. If we stored the passphrase on the device, anyone with the PIN would be able to steal funds and the extra security of your passphrase would be pointless! It's a very intentional security decision to require it on each bootup.

Obvious thing that  SEED+password must be hidden behind the second PIN. Make it 12-digits long and left 3 valid attempts to enter and I am sure no one will  pass through the barrier.

Is this so difficult to implement?

Ledger did it. Why Foundation did not?


I have 20 characters long password and beside the burden of entering it each time this is one more point of frustration for me when even single wrong character infiltrates the  typing.

[n0nce]

Obvious thing that  SEED+password must be hidden behind the second PIN. Make it 12-digits long and left 3 valid attempts to enter and I am sure no one will  pass through the barrier.
[...]
I have 20 characters long password and beside the burden of entering it each time this is one more point of frustration for me when even single wrong character infiltrates the  typing.

Why don't you just use a 12-digit numeric passphrase then?

Ledger did it. Why Foundation did not?

Ledger did many things; not all of them are great. I can't answer this for you, but I assume it comes down to their explanation above (i.e. security).

The BIP39 passphrase is meant to add a reliable amount of extra security. If we now start implementing what's basically a PIN-based passphrase 'bypass', suddenly something built-in into Bitcoin that is universally seen as a very strong extra layer of security, may suddenly be quite insecure depending on wallet implementation used. One wallet may allow you to bypass / 'unlock' the passphrase through a simple numeric 4-digit PIN, another may require you to enter it completely and so on.

Personally, I find the Passport keypads and form factor very comfortable for entering even long PINs and passphrases, so I like the current implementation.

[satscraper]

Obvious thing that  SEED+password must be hidden behind the second PIN. Make it 12-digits long and left 3 valid attempts to enter and I am sure no one will  pass through the barrier.
[...]
I have 20 characters long password and beside the burden of entering it each time this is one more point of frustration for me when even single wrong character infiltrates the  typing.

Why don't you just use a 12-digit numeric passphrase then?

12-digit numeric passphrase  is not equal to mix of 20   characters consisting of digits, caps, small letters and special characters.

Personally, I find the Passport keypads and form factor very comfortable for entering even long PINs and passphrases, so I like the current implementation.

My experience with Passport is  not so long as yours. Only two days have passed since the moment when I got it into my hands.

First impressions.

Form factor is good but sure not for frequent travelers  like me who has to pass through customs borders a few times a month, I am still afraid of custom controls. I would prefer to have it even not in the form of  the old-style cell phone. Maybe something like ordinary calculator with in-front functions to calculate would be better to disguise real thing, who knows.

I am gradually began to adopt myself to their implementation of password feature and see at least  one positive moment in entering password each time after rebooting , namely,  such procedure will stamp firmly  that password into my memory.

If we now start implementing what's basically a PIN-based passphrase 'bypass', suddenly something built-in into Bitcoin that is universally seen as a very strong extra layer of security, may suddenly be quite insecure depending on wallet implementation used. One wallet may allow you to bypass / 'unlock' the passphrase through a simple numeric 4-digit PIN, another may require you to enter it completely and so on.

No one prohibits Foundation to implement  PIN-based passphrase 'bypass' option  alongside with already existing one-time passphrase choice. So, what you said is not really an argument.

I like the current implementation.

 their clients base is more wider than a single person.

[n0nce]

Obvious thing that  SEED+password must be hidden behind the second PIN. Make it 12-digits long and left 3 valid attempts to enter and I am sure no one will  pass through the barrier.
[...]
I have 20 characters long password and beside the burden of entering it each time this is one more point of frustration for me when even single wrong character infiltrates the  typing.

Why don't you just use a 12-digit numeric passphrase then?

12-digit numeric passphrase  is not equal to mix of 20   characters consisting of digits, caps, small letters and special characters.

Correct. But if you use a device that allows you to access a wallet which is supposed to be protected by a 20-character BIP-39 Passphrase by just entering a 12-digit PIN, you've essentially reduced the security level of your wallet to the security of a 12-digit numeric Passphrase.

I guess that further security measures on the hardware wallet (like a maximum number of attempts) can increase the security of the device again, whilst the 20-character passphrase secures your seed phrase backups, but modern attacks can actually defeat such counters. In the end, it all depends on your attacker model.

I am gradually began to adopt myself to their implementation of password feature and see at least  one positive moment in entering password each time after rebooting , namely,  such procedure will stamp firmly that password into my memory.

Interesting; if I think about it, I agree! Especially if you don't back up your Passphrase, you really want to make sure to memorize it well. There's actually no better memorization technique than frequent repetition.

[satscraper]

Obvious thing that  SEED+password must be hidden behind the second PIN. Make it 12-digits long and left 3 valid attempts to enter and I am sure no one will  pass through the barrier.
[...]
I have 20 characters long password and beside the burden of entering it each time this is one more point of frustration for me when even single wrong character infiltrates the  typing.

Why don't you just use a 12-digit numeric passphrase then?

12-digit numeric passphrase  is not equal to mix of 20   characters consisting of digits, caps, small letters and special characters.

Correct. But if you use a device that allows you to access a wallet which is supposed to be protected by a 20-character BIP-39 Passphrase by just entering a 12-digit PIN, you've essentially reduced the security level of your wallet to the security of a 12-digit numeric Passphrase.

I guess that further security measures on the hardware wallet (like a maximum number of attempts) can increase the security of the device again, whilst the 20-character passphrase secures your seed phrase backups, but modern attacks can actually defeat such counters. In the end, it all depends on your attacker model.

What is largely bothered me is the password brute-forcing if someone will manage  to get somehow my SEED but not physical access to my device.

In the case of  his  physical access, if any will take place, 12-digit PIN with 3 valid attempt will be enough to  protect   my security, the probability to break it will be as small as 3/10 ¹² and those probability will be tested by human hands not by machine/s as in the case of brute-forcing.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Ledger have this option of permanently attaching a passphrase to a secondary PIN, so you don't have to enter the passphrase each time. When I had a Ledger device, I deliberately did not use this feature for the reasons given above. I don't want my passphrase to be stored on a hardware wallet at all. If it is stored on the hardware wallet, then there always exists the possibility that it can be extracted from the hardware wallet. Yes it's a small inconvenience to enter it every time I need to use the wallet, but I put up with much bigger inconveniences in the name of security.

I also have multiple different passphrases, and so attaching only one of these to a secondary PIN doesn't solve the issue for any of my other passphrased wallets.

Especially if you don't back up your Passphrase, you really want to make sure to memorize it well. There's actually no better memorization technique than frequent repetition.

All my passphrases are firmly committed to memory, but I still have paper back ups of them all. Doesn't matter how well you have memorized something - a brain injury can make you forget your own name.

[satscraper]

I don't want my passphrase to be stored on a hardware wallet at all. If it is stored on the hardware wallet, then there always exists the possibility that it can be extracted from the hardware wallet. Y

Amused.

How it can be extracted if the wallet is in my hands only.

I think to extract it from nonvolatile memory of secure element it has to be in the hands  of the highly skilled reverse engineers (they can be counted on the fingers of one hand) equipped with highly sophisticated equipment, and I'm not sure if such equipment even exists.


So all such type concerns which have flooded Internet  are unwarranted.


Even if it happens that wallet will be steeled or lost there will  a time to move the funds into safer place.

P.S. I have both ledger nano s and s+ and recently have acquired Passport.  At least it will be useful to implement based solely on HW multi-signature option for storing my funds.

brain injury can make you forget your own name.

in this case you will also forget what  your paper backups are for

 

[o_e_l_e_o]

How it can be extracted if the wallet is in my hands only.

No one is immune to theft. Assuming you are is a mistake.

I think to extract it from nonvolatile memory of secure element it has to be in the hands  of the highly skilled reverse engineers (they can be counted on the fingers of one hand) equipped with highly sophisticated equipment, and I'm not sure if such equipment even exists.

In a perfect world, maybe, but we don't live in a perfect world. Everyone was sure Trezors were perfectly safe, until it was demonstrated that it is possible to extract a seed phrase from a Trezor in under 15 minutes with some fairly basic equipment. The only way to be sure that data can't be extracted is for it not to be there in the first place.

in this case you will also forget what  your paper backups are for

Maybe, but it'll be pretty easy to figure out when my relatives or I find a hardware wallet in my house. Commit it to memory only and the coins are lost forever.

[satscraper]

[Everyone was sure Trezors were perfectly safe, until it was demonstrated that it is possible to extract a seed phrase from a Trezor in under 15 minutes with some fairly basic equipment. T

Maybe everyone except me. I have never though that model T is secure. It lacks secure element.

Those HW that have secure element are quite different thing.

Maybe, but it'll be pretty easy to figure out when my relatives or I find a hardware wallet in my house. Commit it to memory only and the coins are lost forever.

Sure, it is better to have paper based backup, just for the case.

[Pmalek]

Maybe everyone except me. I have never though that model T is secure. It lacks secure element.

Those HW that have secure element are quite different thing.

Keep in mind that secure elements come with no disclosure agreements. If the company's security department finds or knows about a possible vulnerability, they aren't allowed to go public about it. For all we know, there could be a way to attack these chips with physical access (most probably not remotely), but someone would have to come out and say it. They won't and can't because they are bound by NDAs. A valid question would be, why is there a need for an NDA if everything is as secure and safe as advertised?

[n0nce]

The latest version of Passport firmware, v2.1.0, has been released!

Please note that this is our largest release in some time and also brings Founder's Edition up to date with Batch 2 devices, unifying our firmware. As this is such a large update, we'd love for you all to test it as much as you can before we announce it more widely.

Highlights of this release:

- Backporting v2.1.0 firmware to Founder’s Edition
- Sending to Taproot addresses
- A new Key Manager Extension for BIP 85 and Nostr key support and export
- BIP 85 SeedQR exports

For the full release notes, browse Github or read our blog post below:

https://foundationdevices.com/2023/05/passport-version-2-1-0-is-now-live/

NOTE: Since we are now releasing both firmware files from the same repo, the file naming has changed slightly. "Batch 2" devices use the same naming scheme for firmware as before:

Code:

v2.1.0-passport.bin

but Founder's Edition is now named explicitly to avoid confusion:

Code:

v2.1.0-founders-passport.bin

First impressions of the passport2 firmware (v2.1.0 release version) on the Founders Edition hardware:

• Large dark UI areas and color gradients don't work really well in monochrome (maybe I just need to get used to it). I'd appreciate a 'light mode' at least as a software option, or maybe just as default.
• QR code recognition is blazing fast, no complaints there. QR code enters the picture and it's immediately picked up.
• Whole user interface feels faster, snappier than before!

[satscraper]

After applying my passphrase to SEED the message "Fingeprint correct?"  followed by fingeprint itself in the form of XXXXXXXX is shown on the screen of Passport.

How can I know this?  I suppose there is a need for preliminary info on that fingeprint to answer if it is correct or not. Where can I get that info?

Besides, in the current implementation  the first characters of the  long passphrase that doesn't fit the width of the screen are moving to the left and leave the screen, so that it is not possible to check what you have put in without using navigation joystick-button. I think it would be more reasonable to continue such long passphrase on new rows to make it  all visible at once.

[o_e_l_e_o]

How can I know this?  I suppose there is a need for preliminary info on that fingeprint to answer if it is correct or not. Where can I get that info?

You make a note of it (if you want) when you first enter the passphrase. You then compare the fingerprint with what you've written down when you enter your passphrase in the future to confirm that you have indeed entered your passphrase correctly and not made a typo anywhere.

[foundationdvcs]

First impressions of the passport2 firmware (v2.1.0 release version) on the Founders Edition hardware:

• Large dark UI areas and color gradients don't work really well in monochrome (maybe I just need to get used to it). I'd appreciate a 'light mode' at least as a software option, or maybe just as default.
• QR code recognition is blazing fast, no complaints there. QR code enters the picture and it's immediately picked up.
• Whole user interface feels faster, snappier than before!

That's fantastic to hear! We're so glad we can finally bring all of our awesome Founder's Edition users up to date with this, so it's amazing to hear that it's working well from the first release 

I'll definitely pass on the thoughts around a light mode to the team as well.

[foundationdvcs]

It’s time we bring freedom tech and self-custody to more people with Passport.

https://foundationdevices.com/passport

We’re reducing Passport’s price to $199, making it more accessible than ever to secure your Bitcoin with beautifully designed hardware that is open-source and easy-to-use.

As we ramp up manufacturing and lower our costs, we’re passing those savings directly to you.

As a result we’ll be ending discounts moving forward; you’ll always get the best price on Passport up-front, no coupon codes necessary.

If you bought Passport in the last 90 days, we’re happy to offer you a $50 gift card as a thank you:

https://foundationdevices.com/price-reduction/

As a reminder, Passport comes with everything you need to get started, including a replaceable and rechargeable battery, an industrial-grade 8GB microSD card, microSD adapters for Android and iPhone, and a USB-C cable for charging.

Simply open the box and get started at $199.

[RickDeckard]

It’s time we bring freedom tech and self-custody to more people with Passport.

https://foundationdevices.com/passport

We’re reducing Passport’s price to $199, making it more accessible than ever to secure your Bitcoin with beautifully designed hardware that is open-source and easy-to-use.

As we ramp up manufacturing and lower our costs, we’re passing those savings directly to you.

As a result we’ll be ending discounts moving forward; you’ll always get the best price on Passport up-front, no coupon codes necessary.

If you bought Passport in the last 90 days, we’re happy to offer you a $50 gift card as a thank you:

https://foundationdevices.com/price-reduction/

Incredible news! A $60 price drop really puts this device in a very competitive price (iirc $199 was the preselling price). Considering the burning house that Ledger is currently facing[1] I wouldn't be surprised that you guys get some orders in the coming days due to this. Was the manufacturing costs the sole reason that you were able to reduce the price or there were other factors as well?
[1]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5452900.0

[foundationdvcs]

It’s time we bring freedom tech and self-custody to more people with Passport.

https://foundationdevices.com/passport

We’re reducing Passport’s price to $199, making it more accessible than ever to secure your Bitcoin with beautifully designed hardware that is open-source and easy-to-use.

As we ramp up manufacturing and lower our costs, we’re passing those savings directly to you.

As a result we’ll be ending discounts moving forward; you’ll always get the best price on Passport up-front, no coupon codes necessary.

If you bought Passport in the last 90 days, we’re happy to offer you a $50 gift card as a thank you:

https://foundationdevices.com/price-reduction/

Incredible news! A $60 price drop really puts this device in a very competitive price (iirc $199 was the preselling price). Considering the burning house that Ledger is currently facing[1] I wouldn't be surprised that you guys get some orders in the coming days due to this. Was the manufacturing costs the sole reason that you were able to reduce the price or there were other factors as well?
[1]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5452900.0

Especially considering you get everything you need in the box no matter what, no need for extra accessories, batteries, microSD cards etc. -- it's all included for every buyer.

Ramping up manufacturing was definitely the core reason here as we can bring down costs due to better economies of scale. We also wanted to move away from discounts and sales and focus on just providing the best price we can overall to every buyer, regardless of how they find us or when they want to purchase, no need to wait for Black Friday or similar!

[RickDeckard]

(...)
Ramping up manufacturing was definitely the core reason here as we can bring down costs due to better economies of scale. We also wanted to move away from discounts and sales and focus on just providing the best price we can overall to every buyer, regardless of how they find us or when they want to purchase, no need to wait for Black Friday or similar!

Those are really great news considering the current time we experience where both Trezor and Ledger fallen from grace. Really looking forward to see this price impact on your resellers (which I suppose will take their time considering that they have to clear the units that they have acquired at the prior price point).

[dkbit98]

As a reminder, Passport comes with everything you need to get started, including a replaceable and rechargeable battery, an industrial-grade 8GB microSD card, microSD adapters for Android and iPhone, and a USB-C cable for charging.

Nice move with this discount that landed perfectly during ledger collapse  
$199 is perfect price, cheaper and better than Trezor T and most other hardware wallets.
That being said, we still want a cheaper version, something like Passport A, similar like there are Pixel 7 and Pixel 7A smartphones

I was wondering about Nokia batteries compatibility and I remember you guys said they should be compatible with old Nokia batteries.
There was a guy who tried doing this and old Nokia battery was not fitting the case of Passport, even if they look almost identical in size.
This is not a big deal, but I would like to be able to have few spare batteries I can easily swap anytime... so everyone make sure to have correct BL-5C battery ^{(not similar BL-5CB model)}

 

[n0nce]

As a reminder, Passport comes with everything you need to get started, including a replaceable and rechargeable battery, an industrial-grade 8GB microSD card, microSD adapters for Android and iPhone, and a USB-C cable for charging.

Nice move with this discount that landed perfectly during ledger collapse  
$199 is perfect price, cheaper and better than Trezor T and most other hardware wallets.
That being said, we still want a cheaper version, something like Passport A, similar like there are Pixel 7 and Pixel 7A smartphones

Especially since the firmware was back-ported to the older hardware, maybe an option would be a cheap all-plastic shell around Founders Edition internals?
Similar as Apple did it back in the day with the iPhone 5C (released alongside the 5S, with iPhone 5 internals and cheap, but nice and colorful shell).



Of course, this only works if we assume that the hardware is significantly cheaper than Batch 2 hardware and that the quite premium looking and feeling shell of the FE is relatively expensive to manufacture. I believe having read somewhere that they cast metal parts in the U.S.

I was wondering about Nokia batteries compatibility and I remember you guys said they should be compatible with old Nokia batteries.
There was a guy who tried doing this and old Nokia battery was not fitting the case of Passport, even if they look almost identical in size.
This is not a big deal, but I would like to be able to have few spare batteries I can easily swap anytime... so everyone make sure to have correct BL-5C battery ^{(not similar BL-5CB model)}

 

Actual BL-5C do fit though, right? I will look for one and reply to this if I'm successful.

[satscraper]

Actual BL-5C do fit though, right? I will look for one and reply to this if I'm successful.

BL-5C fits Passport 2 perfectly. Just have checked it.

[dkbit98]

Actual BL-5C do fit though, right? I will look for one and reply to this if I'm successful.

Yes it fits perfectly.
Original Nokia battery BL-5C have slight variations for mobile phones with different size and power between BL-5C, BL-5CA and BL-5CB.

Battery capacity is also different:
- BL-5C is 970 mAh
- BL-5CA is 700 mAh
- BL-5CB is 800 mAh

This means that BL-5C that is supported by Passport will give a longer battery time and will fit perfectly.

[Lucius]

@foundationdvcs, it would be good to check the links of your resellers now that many have decided to find a replacement for Ledger&Trezor. I was happy when I saw that one of the IT stores in my country sells you HW, but such a product does not exist in their store (unfortunately) - link. Also, the prices at other shops (EU) are still unchanged, even the prices are over 300 EUR.


Question for those who ordered directly from the US to the EU, how much extra did you pay for shipping costs, customs, VAT?

[RickDeckard]

@foundationdvcs, it would be good to check the links of your resellers now that many have decided to find a replacement for Ledger&Trezor. I was happy when I saw that one of the IT stores in my country sells you HW, but such a product does not exist in their store (unfortunately) - link. Also, the prices at other shops (EU) are still unchanged, even the prices are over 300 EUR.

The only reseller that I saw reflecting the latest price was Bitcoin Brabant[1] (sold all their units[2] and are now waiting for more[3]). They also add additional tamper bags for your shipment and delete your data as soon as your order ship, which is great for privacy[4]. Sadly it seems that some resellers in EU are hit or miss - either they only have the Foundation batch (with the initial price), no stock at all from neither devices, or the Batch 2 original price (some with no stock as well). Bitcoin Brabant seems to be the one leading the race in having more stock soon[3] and being a reliable reseller.
[1]https://bitcoinbrabant.com/product/foundation-passport/
[2]https://nitter.it/BitcoinBrabant/status/1658837864724013063
[3]https://nitter.it/BitcoinBrabant/status/1659764123616378881
[4]https://nitter.it/BitcoinBrabant/status/1658294784228728838

[satscraper]

@foundationdvcs, Passport uses Avalanche diode as a  source for its TRNG.

In this regard, I'm curious to know if this diode is in continuous operation so that SEED is generated exclusively from entropy it provided or Avalanche's noise  is used to generate initial entropy that subsequently feeds BRNG with relevant SEED being generated?

This means that BL-5C that is supported by Passport will give a longer battery time and will fit perfectly.

Yeah, and besides, such compatibility  allows to replace original Passport battery at crossing customs borders and disguise a bit  the real thing.

[Pmalek]

This is not a big deal, but I would like to be able to have few spare batteries I can easily swap anytime... so everyone make sure to have correct BL-5C battery ^{(not similar BL-5CB model)}

I remember years ago when I needed spare batteries due to my work, there was a little trick you could do to get a slightly bigger battery to fit in place. Most batteries have like a plastic cap on one side, maybe on both. If you take a knife, you can tear off that cap to reveal the inside component of the battery. It's going to look weird and be a bit sticky because the cap is glued to the battery. However, you get an additional millimeter or two in size reduction, which might be just enough to get the battery to fit inside the device. Do it at your own risk, of course.

[n0nce]

@foundationdvcs, Passport uses Avalanche diode as a  source for its TRNG.

In this regard, I'm curious to know if this diode is in continuous operation so that SEED is generated exclusively from entropy it provided or Avalanche's noise  is used to generate initial entropy that subsequently feeds BRNG with relevant SEED being generated?

Here we can see the schematic and PCB location of the Avalanche circuit.

As far as I can tell, it is not running all the time. I would assume that NOISE_BIAS_EN is only set to high when they want to sample some randomness.

If you take a knife, you can tear off that cap to reveal the inside component of the battery.
[...]
Do it at your own risk, of course.

Knives and batteries are not the best combination..

[satscraper]

As far as I can tell, it is not running all the time. I would assume that NOISE_BIAS_EN is only set to high when they want to sample some randomness.

Well, OK, but the question remains whether they sample  256 bits of that randomness and produce relevant SEED from it or  use those 256 bit from Avalanche to feed BRNG for subsiquent SEED generation.

Latter means that some deterministic rule is applied to Avalanche's entropy to get random number  for the final SEED.

BTW, I have changed my mind as  to  implementation of password feature in Passport and must confess their decision to erase  it  from memory at shut down is the best one in term of security.  

[n0nce]

Well, OK, but the question remains whether they sample  256 bits of that randomness and produce relevant SEED from it or  use those 256 bit from Avalanche to feed BRNG for subsiquent SEED generation.

Latter means that some deterministic rule is applied to Avalanche's entropy to get random number  for the final SEED.

I'm not sure about that; from what I can tell, the noise_get_random_uint16 function returns one byte by xor'ing the two analog outputs of the avalanche circuit, four times.

ret = adc_read_noise_inputs(&noise1, &noise2);
[...]
r ^= noise1 ^ noise2;

I can't find a function that feeds this to a PRNG (pseudo RNG); the result just gets used by different functions that e.g. fill buffers with multiple random bytes (acquired by repeatedly calling noise_get_random_uint16).

But maybe @foundationdvcs can give a more definitive answer on that.

I'm curious how you got the idea that they would feed the avalanche entropy into a PRNG..

[satscraper]

I can't find a function that feeds this to a PRNG (pseudo RNG); the result just gets used by different functions that e.g. fill buffers with multiple random bytes (acquired by repeatedly calling noise_get_random_uint16).

But maybe @foundationdvcs can give a more definitive answer on that.

OK, then it seems Passport generates SEED's entropy solely from random physical process.

However,  response from foundationdvc   would  be appreciated as their statement "TRNG on SE" is slightly misleading -  Avalanche diode is not on SE.

I'm curious how you got the idea that they would feed the avalanche entropy into a PRNG..

Just my curiosity

They said TRNG on secure element, but Avalanche diode is not on SE.

At the same time

output from BRNG  (that might  be hardware based and implemented on SE) seeded by "white noise" would be very close to being truly random .

Some manufacturers call BRNG seeded by randomness from physical process as TRNG.


UPD. @foundationdvcs, please, don't be silent, waiting for your response.

[foundationdvcs]

UPD. @foundationdvcs, please, don't be silent, waiting for your response.

Will get back to you ASAP, just getting caught up on this thread after a crazy week for the company!

[RickDeckard]

Will get back to you ASAP, just getting caught up on this thread after a crazy week for the company!

Could you also share with us how was this week for you? If I were to guess this surely has to be one of the best periods of Foundation ever since the creation of the company, or am I wrong saying this? The price reduction just in time to reap the burning house that was/is Ledger has had to be a wombo-combo for your company (and rightfully so).

[n0nce]

Hey @foundationdvcs I just realized your last professional security audit was in [1] Q2 2021. Are there any plans for a fresh one any time soon? Maybe you could also try to get the WalletScrutiny guys to re-run their script which checks the latest firmware version for reproducibility.

I also believe that the audit you got was purely a software review and didn't actually attempt to execute the attacks they describe. That's especially evident from your response where you were able to refute many of the 'potential risks' that they had claimed existed.

Nevertheless, the audit also seems to only have covered the FE branch of the Passport firmware, and I know how much code changed from FE to Batch 2. So I do believe a new audit would be good, maybe this time from someone who also actually tries to exploit what he believes could be vulnerabilities.

[1] https://foundationdevices.com/security/

[satscraper]

Hey @foundationdvcs

and, for good measure,  the reminder of my hard-nose question

~

resulted from the fact that

....Avalanche diode is not on SE.

[foundationdvcs]

@foundationdvcs, Passport uses Avalanche diode as a  source for its TRNG.

In this regard, I'm curious to know if this diode is in continuous operation so that SEED is generated exclusively from entropy it provided or Avalanche's noise  is used to generate initial entropy that subsequently feeds BRNG with relevant SEED being generated?

Here is a quote from our CTO, Ken, on the question you raised here:

We read the Avalanche noise source through the ADC on channels 10 and 11 in `adc_read_noise_inputs()`. This function returns two 32-bit values. The ADC is started and stopped each time we read a random value.

https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport2/blob/6c6249e2c15f52c59db56b12b5f84213806a6533/ports/stm32/boards/Passport/adc.c#L151

This function is called by `noise_get_random_uint16()`, which XORs the two 32-bit values together and XORs the lower 16-bits of that value into the `uint16_t` result. This is repeated 4 times, shifting the result left 4 bits each time. This process is typically called “whitening” and it helps remove potential sources of bias. Note that there is a 1ms delay between each of the 4 rounds, which gives ample time for entropy creation.

https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport2/blob/6c6249e2c15f52c59db56b12b5f84213806a6533/ports/stm32/boards/Passport/noise.c#L39

For a 32-byte seed, we call `noise_get_random_bytes()` with a 32-byte buffer and just call `noise_get_random_uint16()` 16 times to fill the buffer.

We have run the random numbers through the NIST statistical tests to prove they are uniformily random.

Please let me know if you have any outstanding questions after that, happy to answer them/get them answered for you!

Will get back to you ASAP, just getting caught up on this thread after a crazy week for the company!

Could you also share with us how was this week for you? If I were to guess this surely has to be one of the best periods of Foundation ever since the creation of the company, or am I wrong saying this? The price reduction just in time to reap the burning house that was/is Ledger has had to be a wombo-combo for your company (and rightfully so).

Oh my, by far the craziest week in the history of the company! Not only did we have the biggest firmware and software releases yet planned (Envoy full mobile wallet and Passport v2.1.0 with Key Manager and much more), but the price drop perfectly coincided with Ledger's fiasco and made for a powerful duo. We sold 6wks worth of units in 36h, if that tells you anything, and the rush has barely slowed down even after going out of stock due to the craziness.

Fantastic to see people rushing to safety in truly open-source software and hardware and finally understanding the risks inherent with introducing trust back into the system with closed-source code.

Hey @foundationdvcs I just realized your last professional security audit was in [1] Q2 2021. Are there any plans for a fresh one any time soon? Maybe you could also try to get the WalletScrutiny guys to re-run their script which checks the latest firmware version for reproducibility.

I also believe that the audit you got was purely a software review and didn't actually attempt to execute the attacks they describe. That's especially evident from your response where you were able to refute many of the 'potential risks' that they had claimed existed.

Nevertheless, the audit also seems to only have covered the FE branch of the Passport firmware, and I know how much code changed from FE to Batch 2. So I do believe a new audit would be good, maybe this time from someone who also actually tries to exploit what he believes could be vulnerabilities.

[1] https://foundationdevices.com/security/

As of now there are no plans to do another security audit on the current code-base, but we will absolutely be having an audit done on the next device we're working on now, as that will be a complete rewrite from the ground up. I will, however, prompt the Wallet Scrutiny guys again to try and get them to update their tests as our code is absolutely still reproducible so I'd love to have their tests inline with our current codebase/version.

I'll re-raise the idea of an audit on the current code-base internally, though, and report back here if that changes at all.

[n0nce]

As of now there are no plans to do another security audit on the current code-base, but we will absolutely be having an audit done on the next device we're working on now, as that will be a complete rewrite from the ground up. I will, however, prompt the Wallet Scrutiny guys again to try and get them to update their tests as our code is absolutely still reproducible so I'd love to have their tests inline with our current codebase/version.

I'll re-raise the idea of an audit on the current code-base internally, though, and report back here if that changes at all.

Another re-write? Just now when you finally got passport2 running on FE.. Hopefully the gen 1 and 2 devices will continue to be supported.

Do consider a more thorough audit though, as I mentioned, where they actually try to execute supposed security flaws. I believe this gives us consumers a better picture as to how realistic / possible certain attacks are. For security-conscious buyers, this is very helpful information that most manufacturers can't actually provide.

[foundationdvcs]

Another re-write? Just now when you finally got passport2 running on FE.. Hopefully the gen 1 and 2 devices will continue to be supported.

Not a re-write, a completely new piece of software/firmware is necessary for the next device, will be very clear why when we announce it

And yes, absolutely will as both devices will be offered in tandem when it's released!

Do consider a more thorough audit though, as I mentioned, where they actually try to execute supposed security flaws. I believe this gives us consumers a better picture as to how realistic / possible certain attacks are. For security-conscious buyers, this is very helpful information that most manufacturers can't actually provide.

Absolutely, we're leaning towards an audit on the current code base now, will update when we have more firm details.

[RickDeckard]

Oh my, by far the craziest week in the history of the company! Not only did we have the biggest firmware and software releases yet planned (Envoy full mobile wallet and Passport v2.1.0 with Key Manager and much more), but the price drop perfectly coincided with Ledger's fiasco and made for a powerful duo. We sold 6wks worth of units in 36h, if that tells you anything, and the rush has barely slowed down even after going out of stock due to the craziness.

Fantastic to see people rushing to safety in truly open-source software and hardware and finally understanding the risks inherent with introducing trust back into the system with closed-source code.

That is incredible to hear, congratulations to the team over @Foundation. I wonder, do many clients sign up for the Concierge Setup? Or out of all your orders this service represents only a fraction of your income?

[satscraper]

Here is a quote from our CTO, Ken, on the question you raised here:

We read the Avalanche noise source through the ADC on channels 10 and 11 in `adc_read_noise_inputs()`. This function returns two 32-bit values. The ADC is started and stopped each time we read a random value.

https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport2/blob/6c6249e2c15f52c59db56b12b5f84213806a6533/ports/stm32/boards/Passport/adc.c#L151

This function is called by `noise_get_random_uint16()`, which XORs the two 32-bit values together and XORs the lower 16-bits of that value into the `uint16_t` result. This is repeated 4 times, shifting the result left 4 bits each time. This process is typically called “whitening” and it helps remove potential sources of bias. Note that there is a 1ms delay between each of the 4 rounds, which gives ample time for entropy creation.

https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport2/blob/6c6249e2c15f52c59db56b12b5f84213806a6533/ports/stm32/boards/Passport/noise.c#L39

For a 32-byte seed, we call `noise_get_random_bytes()` with a 32-byte buffer and just call `noise_get_random_uint16()` 16 times to fill the buffer.

We have run the random numbers through the NIST statistical tests to prove they are uniformily random.

Please let me know if you have any outstanding questions after that, happy to answer them/get them answered for you!

Thanks for response.

Could you show here the  p-values (relevant to Passport's TRNG) for each test from NIST suite?

Alternatively, refer me  to relevant Foundation's official  source if any.

[Lucius]

Can someone confirm if this HW works in combination with Electrum with the help of QR codes or only as described on the official website with the help of a microSD card? https://docs.foundationdevices.com/connect/electrum

[satscraper]

Can someone confirm if this HW works in combination with Electrum with the help of QR codes or only as described on the official website with the help of a microSD card? https://docs.foundationdevices.com/connect/electrum

Passport/2 can not be paired and communicate with Electrum via QR. (The limitation is due to Electrum itself. ) This HW does it via json file. Just have checked it using  my Passport 2.

But why bother yourself with Electrum?

Sparrow is much better in term of privacy. It is capable to connect to BitcoinCore and communicate with Passport via QR.

But if you prefer public Electrum servers Sparrow is capable to work with them as well.

[cygan]

after the disaster of a very well known hardware wallet manufacturer i am now looking for a new hw-wallet...
play now with the idea to buy me the passport batch 2. but since the price is already in a very high category, i wanted to ask politely if there are perhaps also current vouchers that reduce the price a little - because the shipping to the eu is then certainly also in the double-digit dollar range

[satscraper]

after the disaster of a very well known hardware wallet manufacturer i am now looking for a new hw-wallet...
play now with the idea to buy me the passport batch 2. but since the price is already in a very high category, i wanted to ask politely if there are perhaps also current vouchers that reduce the price a little - because the shipping to the eu is then certainly also in the double-digit dollar range

Looks like the cheapest reseller in EU is BitcoinBrabant  which offers it for € 329,95 € 259,95, the fair price as to me (I have paid ~ €80 more at time of purchase). You should hurry up if your intention is serious as "Batch 2 is limited to 2400 units."

[Lucius]

~snip~
You should hurry up if your intention is serious as "Batch 2 is limited to 2400 units."

Is there a special reason why they decided to produce only 2400 units? This does not seem logical to me from a business perspective, especially if the demand is increased, as is the case now. Although it seems to me that I read that some new device is being prepared, so that might be the reason.

[RickDeckard]

~snip~
You should hurry up if your intention is serious as "Batch 2 is limited to 2400 units."

Is there a special reason why they decided to produce only 2400 units? This does not seem logical to me from a business perspective, especially if the demand is increased, as is the case now. Although it seems to me that I read that some new device is being prepared, so that might be the reason.

I think the 2400 units mostly has to due with scaling their business. If you look at Founder's edition, they started out with 1000 devices which sold out in November of the same year[1]. In that same page you can read that the initial order for Passport Batch 2 was 2500 units. I vaguely remember that they planned to ship this new device in April, but I believe that clients only started receiving their orders around July-August, so if we assume that they got the units around August, it took them around ~9 months to end that round of supply.

Considering that they are still a young company and need to take the best decisions that they can regarding inventory management (stock in their warehouse is just money waiting to be sold), I suppose that they felt safer recreating the same number of devices that their last order was made of. I also assume that their manufacturing capacity also played a role in this decision (since they not only depend on that but also on their suppliers...). Perhaps to get a better pricing for their components they would have to invest a larger sum of money (economy of scales) and it wouldn't be beneficial to them as well.

Regarding the new device - you probably have read about it right here[2] in this thread.
[1]https://foundationdevices.com/2021/11/passport-founders-edition-is-sold-out/
[2]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5441422.msg62326900#msg62326900

[Lucius]

@RickDeckard, It just seemed to me that such a small number of units could be a problem in the future with regard to firmware updates, because the user base is very small and it is easy to abandon the product without making too much noise. However, the link you posted states that even the first version will continue to receive updates on a regular basis.

Additionally, though Passport Batch 2 will introduce numerous improvements, Passport Founder’s Edition will continue to receive regular firmware updates! We’re excited to keep improving your Passport experience as time goes by.

However, as for the new device, it seems that it will be even better than the previous two, so the question arises, is it worth waiting for it to become available or buying the current version? Is there somewhere an official counter of how many units have been sold so far, or how many are still available in total?

[satscraper]

However, as for the new device, it seems that it will be even better than the previous two, so the question arises, is it worth waiting for it to become available or buying the current version? I

Yeah, it is generally assumed that new device will beat the old one  but one should always remember that user needs not just newest model  but the battle-tested device. It takes some time to verify that new  model meets all requirement you put on it. That said, it is personal thing whether to wait for new model or buy the current one which is already tested by many users.

As to how many they sold already. Hard quantity is not publicly available but a few days ago they declared

 We sold 6wks worth of units in 36h, if that tells you anything, and the rush has barely slowed down even after going out of stock due to the craziness.

[dkbit98]

Not a re-write, a completely new piece of software/firmware is necessary for the next device, will be very clear why when we announce it

Interesting news... when can we expect this new devices to come out in public?

Looks like the cheapest reseller in EU is BitcoinBrabant  which offers it for € 329,95 € 259,95, the fair price as to me (I have paid ~ €80 more at time of purchase). You should hurry up if your intention is serious as "Batch 2 is limited to 2400 units."

I think I saw better deals in one more seller from Europe that was giving nice discounts if paid with Bitcoin, but I can't find it right.
They are registered in forum and I think their shop is located in Poland, but last time I checked they offered other hardware wallets also, not just Passport.
It's a good idea to find coupons and discounts if you can.

EDIT: It's shopinbit.com, they have 3% discount but Passport is currently unavailable.

[RickDeckard]

However, as for the new device, it seems that it will be even better than the previous two, so the question arises, is it worth waiting for it to become available or buying the current version? Is there somewhere an official counter of how many units have been sold so far, or how many are still available in total?

If you start to think like that, regarding waiting for the better product to come out, you'll never buy anything. Take, for instance, the Iphone. Every year we get a new one and then we already know that in the following year a new one will be released with surely better specifications (camera, battery, SoC at least) and perhaps a better version will come out in the same year (Standard line vs. Pro line).
Technology is evolving in a rapid pace and users simply have to look into their needs and see if a certain product fulfills them and their current need for them. If they are OK with what the product offers + they need the product, why wait another year to purchase it? (This is my view on the subject of course, willing to discuss it further).

[foundationdvcs]

Phew, sorry we fell behind in replies here! Love seeing you all jump in and help out while we were away from Bitcoin Talk 

You should hurry up if your intention is serious as "Batch 2 is limited to 2400 units."

Just to clarify here, that was the original production run of Batch 2 but we have already sold all of those, a new production run of the same device (with minor improvements) is what we were already ramping up before the Ledger fiasco drove so many people to us to sell out the original 2400 run 

This coming run is much larger than the last, FWIW.

Is there a special reason why they decided to produce only 2400 units? This does not seem logical to me from a business perspective, especially if the demand is increased, as is the case now. Although it seems to me that I read that some new device is being prepared, so that might be the reason.

As mentioned by others, it was to start slow and scale up with Batch 2 as we were still a very small team when that device was launched. We've grown and seen great community and sales growth, so we've ramped up production significantly as mentioned above!

after the disaster of a very well known hardware wallet manufacturer i am now looking for a new hw-wallet...
play now with the idea to buy me the passport batch 2. but since the price is already in a very high category, i wanted to ask politely if there are perhaps also current vouchers that reduce the price a little - because the shipping to the eu is then certainly also in the double-digit dollar range

Hey cygan, glad you're looking into Passport! When we dropped the price to $199 moving forward, we did so by a combination of economies of scale and simply selling at the best price to all customers, so we don't do discounts anymore moving forward. Note that this price makes it very competitive in the space, and cheaper than Coldcard (when you purchase the necessary accessories) as we include everything you need for Passport in the box.

$199 gets you Passport, an 8GB industrial grade microSD card, 2 microSD phone adapters, replaceable batter, and a USB-C charging cable. Nothing else needed

However, as for the new device, it seems that it will be even better than the previous two, so the question arises, is it worth waiting for it to become available or buying the current version? Is there somewhere an official counter of how many units have been sold so far, or how many are still available in total?

While I can't say too much about the new device, it will be in a bit of a different vein than the current one. If you love the current approach of Passport, the current gen will be a good fit for a long time! Our plan is to sell them alongside each other most likely as they will serve different use-cases and compliment each other well.

Not a re-write, a completely new piece of software/firmware is necessary for the next device, will be very clear why when we announce it

Interesting news... when can we expect this new devices to come out in public?

Already well under way, target is well ahead of the halving  This one won't be a pre-order at all, so it will be announced when it's live and ready to purchase this time!

[satscraper]

While I can't say too much about the new device, it will be in a bit of a different vein than the current one.

I guess it will be BIP85 complient, correct?

and, conjointly,  the reminder of my previous request in the case you forgot about it

Could you show here the  p-values (relevant to Passport's TRNG) for each test from NIST suite?
Alternatively, refer me  to relevant Foundation's official  source if any.

[foundationdvcs]

While I can't say too much about the new device, it will be in a bit of a different vein than the current one.

I guess it will be BIP85 complient, correct?

Of course, Bitcoin will still be at the core of it including all of the functionality we've built out in Passport

and, conjointly,  the reminder of my previous request in the case you forgot about it

Could you show here the  p-values (relevant to Passport's TRNG) for each test from NIST suite?
Alternatively, refer me  to relevant Foundation's official  source if any.

I don't have an answer on the p-values yet, not sure if we saved the results from that test but will pass them on if I can dig them up! Of course all of the source code is open source, so you can view anything of interest in the firmware or hardware:

https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport2
https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport2-hardware

[n0nce]

Since the WalletScrutiny review for Passport FE is outdated and the Passport Batch 2 build wasn't verified yet, I decided to quickly try it myself and write instructions for everyone to replicate it.

FE: https://walletscrutiny.com/hardware/passport/ "Review might be outdated"
Batch 2: https://walletscrutiny.com/hardware/foundation.passport2/ "Review is Work in Progress"


First of all, the script by WalletScrutiny does still work for the latest v1 firmware version v1.1.0 (Founders Edition). Since the latest verified version was v1.0.8, I thought it may be worth verifying it, even though it has now been superseded by v2.x.x.

v1.1.0 verified reproducible:

Code:

#install dependency
sudo apt install podman

#download the script
wget https://gitlab.com/walletscrutiny/walletScrutinyCom/-/raw/master/scripts/test/hardware/passport.sh?inline=false -O passport.sh

#make executable
chmod +x passport.sh

#execute the script
./passport.sh 1.1.0 e32dcb154e9be8156d3106443f23453691e22b1e575633cc44d10b83082c4f24
[...]
e32dcb154e9be8156d3106443f23453691e22b1e575633cc44d10b83082c4f24  build-Passport/firmware.bin
e32dcb154e9be8156d3106443f23453691e22b1e575633cc44d10b83082c4f24

For the passport2 firmware, I could not yet reproduce the builds. Since I wanted to contribute to WalletScrutiny's project, I did not follow Foundation Devices' instructions, but adapted the old WalletScrutiny script to work with passport2 and may have done something wrong in the process.

The firmware compiles fine, but checksum doesn't match. I'm not entirely sure whether we are meant to select development flags or not, but the hashes did not match with either option.

Maybe someone from Foundation can give me a hint where my issue is... I compared your build scripts (Justfile) and mine and they should be equivalent now.

Code:

#!/bin/bash


### provide this script with the version without "v" and the published buildHash

version=$1
buildHash=$2

rm -rf /tmp/passport/
rm /tmp/passport-fw-${version}.bin

cd /tmp
wget https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport2/releases/download/v${version}/v${version}-passport.bin
sha256sum v${version}-passport.bin 
mkdir passport
cd passport

podman run --rm -it --volume=$(pwd):/work/ ubuntu:22.04 bash -c "apt update; \
    apt install --yes git python3-pip gcc-arm-none-eabi autotools-dev automake libusb-1.0-0-dev libtool curl; \
    RUSTUP_HOME='/rustup'; CARGO_HOME='/cargo'; mkdir -p /rustup /cargo; \
    curl --proto '=https' --tlsv1.2 -sSf https://sh.rustup.rs | sh -s -- -y --profile minimal --default-toolchain 1.67.1; \
    PATH='/cargo/bin:${PATH}'; source '$HOME/.cargo/env'; \
    rustup component add clippy rustfmt; \
    rustup target add aarch64-unknown-none thumbv7em-none-eabihf x86_64-unknown-none; \
    cargo install cbindgen@^0.24; \
    git clone https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport2.git; \
    cd passport2; \
    git checkout v${version}; \
    make -C mpy-cross; \
    cd ports/stm32/; \
    make -j $(nproc) \
        LV_CFLAGS='-DLV_COLOR_DEPTH=16 -DLV_COLOR_16_SWAP -DLV_TICK_CUSTOM=1 -DSCREEN_MODE_COLOR -DHAS_FUEL_GAUGE' SCREEN_MODE=COLOR \
        BOARD=Passport \
        FROZEN_MANIFEST='boards/Passport/manifest.py'; \
    sha256sum build-Passport/firmware-COLOR.bin; echo $buildHash; \
    mv build-Passport/firmware-COLOR.bin /work/firmware-passport-v${version}.bin; \
    bash;"

tail -c +2049 ../v${version}-passport.bin | sha256sum ; \
    sha256sum firmware-passport-v${version}.bin; \
    echo $buildHash

Running this script, I get the following build hash for v2.0.7:

Code:

./passport2.sh 2.0.7 2c59a27300a20eccb27dc387be782f68b13fdb30499ab58901b9cd80484869f4
[...]
8276e80a5446b0219b448676028d7e52604c8b5db1b92fd5033ab17cf2545a45  firmware-passport-v2.0.7.bin
2c59a27300a20eccb27dc387be782f68b13fdb30499ab58901b9cd80484869f4

And for v2.1.2:

Code:

./passport2.sh 2.1.2 08959d69338eb33ab008ae6e74e111838cc60f39ef17befe401e77d1cc274520
[...]
0c27c5e0767988aff1b32d72ad02f89baf3f6b047d37a68e604ac013fa2f851f  build-Passport/firmware-COLOR.bin
08959d69338eb33ab008ae6e74e111838cc60f39ef17befe401e77d1cc274520

[satscraper]

While I can't say too much about the new device, it will be in a bit of a different vein than the current one.

I guess it will be BIP85 complient, correct?

Of course, Bitcoin will still be at the core of it including all of the functionality we've built out in Passport

Well, thanks, in my view your response will help @Lucius on choosing the right decision when pondering about  new model -  "is it worth waiting for it to become available or buying the current version?"

Child seeds available with implementation of BIP85 in new model  would be overkill feature for me but every person should make his own decision on this matter.

[foundationdvcs]

Since the WalletScrutiny review for Passport FE is outdated and the Passport Batch 2 build wasn't verified yet, I decided to quickly try it myself and write instructions for everyone to replicate it.

FE: https://walletscrutiny.com/hardware/passport/ "Review might be outdated"
Batch 2: https://walletscrutiny.com/hardware/foundation.passport2/ "Review is Work in Progress"

...snip...

For the passport2 firmware, I could not yet reproduce the builds. Since I wanted to contribute to WalletScrutiny's project, I did not follow Foundation Devices' instructions, but adapted the old WalletScrutiny script to work with passport2 and may have done something wrong in the process.

The firmware compiles fine, but checksum doesn't match. I'm not entirely sure whether we are meant to select development flags or not, but the hashes did not match with either option.

Maybe someone from Foundation can give me a hint where my issue is... I compared your build scripts (Justfile) and mine and they should be equivalent now.

Thanks for looking into that, awesome to see others wanting to help out and verify reproducibility themselves! We actually have a WIP MR for updating Wallet Scrutiny scripts to support both FE and B2, along with updated pages for both devices as there was a lot out of date there:

https://gitlab.com/walletscrutiny/walletScrutinyCom/-/merge_requests/454

Once that is merged the verification should be all set. Note that those use Just and Docker to ensure that they are always reproducible and have been verified by multiple team members as giving reproducible results.

As for your specific issue, I would imagine it's that you're using a different base image (22.04 vs our 20.04), which will almost always lead to different build hashes as underlying libraries etc. will be different between versions.

Could you try the latest version of the WIP script update and verify that it gives you the correct hashes? You can find it directly in the MR here:

https://gitlab.com/sethforprivacy/walletScrutinyCom/-/blob/master/scripts/test/hardware/passport.sh

Note that this new version of the script needs different arguments passed, for example you would run the following for v2.1.2:

Code:

./passport.sh 2.1.2 color 08959d69338eb33ab008ae6e74e111838cc60f39ef17befe401e77d1cc274520 9de833a38931b7e4660e8d0e3ea4a2bfe74924caa1328834e9be9c3d1750cd7e

[n0nce]

As for your specific issue, I would imagine it's that you're using a different base image (22.04 vs our 20.04), which will almost always lead to different build hashes as underlying libraries etc. will be different between versions.

Good catch, I just re-ran it with 20.04 and this is the result:

Code:

./passport2.sh 2.1.2 08959d69338eb33ab008ae6e74e111838cc60f39ef17befe401e77d1cc274520
[...]
8eb8247dd3a23d06ff30722525ecdb77453fd1af313ac8a24c3cf1a227bf7c92  firmware-passport-v2.1.2.bin
08959d69338eb33ab008ae6e74e111838cc60f39ef17befe401e77d1cc274520

Using the 'dev' flag parameters (-DDEV_BUILD, FROZEN_MANIFEST=boards/Passport/manifest_dev.py), it looks as such:

Code:

./passport2.sh 2.1.2 08959d69338eb33ab008ae6e74e111838cc60f39ef17befe401e77d1cc274520
[...]
ded27522297fefc5b1cb43bacd56dadf516f2c35bda12719909512f58ff28e57  firmware-passport-v2.1.2.bin
08959d69338eb33ab008ae6e74e111838cc60f39ef17befe401e77d1cc274520

Could you try the latest version of the WIP script update and verify that it gives you the correct hashes? You can find it directly in the MR here:

https://gitlab.com/sethforprivacy/walletScrutinyCom/-/blob/master/scripts/test/hardware/passport.sh

This script is cheating, though! Compared to the old WalletScrutiny script, it doesn't contain the actual build commands itself, but just downloads your Justfile script and runs that instead. I'd really like to be able to reproduce it with my own script, instead.

I do understand that Leo wants to reproduce / verify your script first.. That's basically what I have been trying, too, with his podman setup. Maybe you can send him a link to my script and he can start off of that.

[foundationdvcs]

Could you try the latest version of the WIP script update and verify that it gives you the correct hashes? You can find it directly in the MR here:

https://gitlab.com/sethforprivacy/walletScrutinyCom/-/blob/master/scripts/test/hardware/passport.sh

This script is cheating, though! Compared to the old WalletScrutiny script, it doesn't contain the actual build commands itself, but just downloads your Justfile script and runs that instead. I'd really like to be able to reproduce it with my own script, instead.

Yes, but the Justfiles are all open-source and verifiable themselves, they just greatly simplify things and remove the need to make changes to the WalletScrutiny script if the build environment or steps change. The use of Rust in particular poses unique challenges to reproducibility, as even doing the rust setup commands in a slightly different order will change the output binaries and thus their hashes.

Understand wanting to be able to reproduce from scratch, though! Is there a reason you aren't directly copying the Dockerfile and the `docker run` command and using them directly to build the image and then build the firmware? You would also need to replicate the build steps *exactly* from the relevant Justfile.

Doing that would ensure that you're using the exact same environment. If you don't want to copy the files themselves, I would use them as a direct reference, as if there is even the smallest difference in the image you build under podman you can expect the hashes to not match.

I do understand that Leo wants to reproduce / verify your script first.. That's basically what I have been trying, too, with his podman setup. Maybe you can send him a link to my script and he can start off of that.

Will pass it on once we get things worked out for your manual script to reproduce properly

[dkbit98]

Since the WalletScrutiny review for Passport FE is outdated and the Passport Batch 2 build wasn't verified yet, I decided to quickly try it myself and write instructions for everyone to replicate it.

Maybe this delay with reviews was happening because WalletScrutiny was busy with stupid lawsuits they are getting lately

It would be cuper cool to verify that Passport is reproducible and post it on on coldcard website BitcoinBinary, as a way to just say hello to NVK  
https://bitcoinbinary.org/

[foundationdvcs]

Since the WalletScrutiny review for Passport FE is outdated and the Passport Batch 2 build wasn't verified yet, I decided to quickly try it myself and write instructions for everyone to replicate it.

Maybe this delay with reviews was happening because WalletScrutiny was busy with stupid lawsuits they are getting lately

It would be cuper cool to verify that Passport is reproducible and post it on on coldcard website BitcoinBinary, as a way to just say hello to NVK  
https://bitcoinbinary.org/

 

Would be fun if it would get merged, but something tells me he would close out that PR. We'll lean on less biased sites for this, in addition to providing everything users need to do it themselves as we did recently here:

https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport2/blob/main/REPRODUCIBILITY.md

[n0nce]

Could you try the latest version of the WIP script update and verify that it gives you the correct hashes? You can find it directly in the MR here:

https://gitlab.com/sethforprivacy/walletScrutinyCom/-/blob/master/scripts/test/hardware/passport.sh

This script is cheating, though! Compared to the old WalletScrutiny script, it doesn't contain the actual build commands itself, but just downloads your Justfile script and runs that instead. I'd really like to be able to reproduce it with my own script, instead.

Yes, but the Justfiles are all open-source and verifiable themselves, they just greatly simplify things and remove the need to make changes to the WalletScrutiny script if the build environment or steps change.

That's true; and I have also read / 'verified' them myself, nothing 'fishy' going on, so I'm not mistrusting the Justfiles. Just trying to do it in a different way..

Is there a reason you aren't directly copying the Dockerfile and the `docker run` command and using them directly to build the image and then build the firmware?

That's something to try, yes. The difference is simply due to me starting with the original podman-based script.

You would also need to replicate the build steps *exactly* from the relevant Justfile.

Doing that would ensure that you're using the exact same environment. If you don't want to copy the files themselves, I would use them as a direct reference, as if there is even the smallest difference in the image you build under podman you can expect the hashes to not match.

That should already be the case, no? Steps themselves, as well as the order of execution, should be identical.

[RickDeckard]

Really digging the discussion happening here[1] @foundationdvcs. It would be great to withdraw from a P2P market straight into Passport (or other hardware wallet) if this ever gets adoption, albeit I'm not sure if Bisq developers would eventually implement this feature. @n0nce what is your take on it?
[1]https://github.com/bisq-network/bisq/discussions/6726

[foundationdvcs]

Could you try the latest version of the WIP script update and verify that it gives you the correct hashes? You can find it directly in the MR here:

https://gitlab.com/sethforprivacy/walletScrutinyCom/-/blob/master/scripts/test/hardware/passport.sh

This script is cheating, though! Compared to the old WalletScrutiny script, it doesn't contain the actual build commands itself, but just downloads your Justfile script and runs that instead. I'd really like to be able to reproduce it with my own script, instead.

Yes, but the Justfiles are all open-source and verifiable themselves, they just greatly simplify things and remove the need to make changes to the WalletScrutiny script if the build environment or steps change.

That's true; and I have also read / 'verified' them myself, nothing 'fishy' going on, so I'm not mistrusting the Justfiles. Just trying to do it in a different way..

Is there a reason you aren't directly copying the Dockerfile and the `docker run` command and using them directly to build the image and then build the firmware?

That's something to try, yes. The difference is simply due to me starting with the original podman-based script.

You would also need to replicate the build steps *exactly* from the relevant Justfile.

Doing that would ensure that you're using the exact same environment. If you don't want to copy the files themselves, I would use them as a direct reference, as if there is even the smallest difference in the image you build under podman you can expect the hashes to not match.

That should already be the case, no? Steps themselves, as well as the order of execution, should be identical.

I have pushed a new WalletScrutiny script that removes all reliance on Just and still produces reproducible binaries with matching hashes:

https://gitlab.com/sethforprivacy/walletScrutinyCom/-/blob/master/scripts/test/hardware/passport.sh

Please let me know if you have any questions around that, but it should give you everything you need (along with the Dockerfile it builds).

[foundationdvcs]

Pretty cool news, both Passport "Founder's Edition" and "Batch 2" are now updated and properly marked as verified for the latest firmware, v2.1.2, on the Wallet Scrutiny website!

https://walletscrutiny.com/hardware/passport/
https://walletscrutiny.com/hardware/passportb2/

Note that if you ever want to reproduce the firmware yourself you can do so using our guide here:

https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport2/blob/main/REPRODUCIBILITY.md

[n0nce]

Really digging the discussion happening here[1] @foundationdvcs. It would be great to withdraw from a P2P market straight into Passport (or other hardware wallet) if this ever gets adoption, albeit I'm not sure if Bisq developers would eventually implement this feature. @n0nce what is your take on it?
[1]https://github.com/bisq-network/bisq/discussions/6726

I personally prefer to enter addresses when needed, rather than risking getting an xpub compromised, due to the related privacy and security issues.

Also, I have to agree with comments in that discussion which point out that address reuse can still happen if you start entering xpubs in different Bitcoin applications. Even checking addresses for balances does not exclude collisions, due to the 'TOCTOU' nature of this idea combined with asynchronous Bitcoin transactions; only emphasized by a full mempool with long confirmation times.

It's also correct that mediation and support in general will only get worse if people use all sorts of different wallets. By keeping the trade from beginning to end inside Bisq, the team should have a much easier time assisting in case of problems.

I have pushed a new WalletScrutiny script that removes all reliance on Just and still produces reproducible binaries with matching hashes:

https://gitlab.com/sethforprivacy/walletScrutinyCom/-/blob/master/scripts/test/hardware/passport.sh

Please let me know if you have any questions around that, but it should give you everything you need (along with the Dockerfile it builds).

That reads really nice, indeed! Much better than before; everything in one file, nice and concise and with one less dependency. I will try it out myself and also use it to debug my own script.
Amazing to see that it was already updated on WalletScrutiny now, that's a pleasure to see.

[Pmalek]

It would be cuper cool to verify that Passport is reproducible and post it on on coldcard website BitcoinBinary, as a way to just say hello to NVK  

I know that you are throwing a punch at NVK and ColdCard (rightly so), but did I miss some drama between the teams of Passport Foundation and ColdCard? Did NVK question the verifiable or open-source nature of Passport devices? Just for the record, although I am sure you know, Coldcard not being open-source doesn't make their code not verifiable and nonreproducible. Even WalletScrutiny has marked it properly on their website.

[DireWolfM14]

did I miss some drama between the teams of Passport Foundation and ColdCard?

I seriously doubt it, and I haven't seen any interaction between the two.  Both outfits have handled their forum presence with professionalism and tact despite efforts by some to stir shit and pit them against each other.

I own wallets from both outfits, and it's my opinion that both are among the best hardware wallets currently available.

[Pmalek]

I own wallets from both outfits, and it's my opinion that both are among the best hardware wallets currently available.

I know that Andreas A. owns both a Coldcard and a Ledger device. In one of his recent videos where he discussed the Ledger Recover feature with Jameson Lopp, he said he will continue using both hardware devices, but for different storage needs. It would be off-topic to discuss that here, but it's just something that I remembered now.

[RickDeckard]

I seriously doubt it, and I haven't seen any interaction between the two.  Both outfits have handled their forum presence with professionalism and tact despite efforts by some to stir shit and pit them against each other.

There was a clash between the two some time ago. Zach (Foundation CEO and Co-founder) even made a post in his own blog about it[1]. It mostly started when Matt Odell (seen as an influencer within the crypto community I assume) posted a tweet[2] claiming that all what Foundation did was to clone NVK source code into their product. Besides Matt, even the co-founder and CEO of CoinKite (@nvk[3]) - the producers of Coldcard - was spreading that same information on their Discord channel - that not only did Foundation copied their code but that they were also closed source (you can read more about it on Zack open letter).

I don't know how the situation ended between the two, but I wouldn't be surprised if Foundation (and Zach team) ended up a bit frustrated against this "attack" by nvk and would keep communication on strictly what was needed. You can feel that on Zach closing remarks on his letter:

Our team would appreciate if you lay off the character attacks and untrue statements. Let us know if we’ve done something wrong. But in an open source world, we need to build on each other’s work in order to bring Bitcoin to the masses.

[1]https://www.zherbert.com/an-open-letter-to-nvk-and-coldcard/
[2]https://nitter.it/ODELL/status/1651220101721358336
[3]https://nitter.it/nvk

[DireWolfM14]

~

Thanks for the info, but let's try to refrain from turning this thread into a "He said, She said" bickering match.  I know some members can't refrain themselves from stirring drama, but so far this thread has been steadfast in sticking to the topic at hand, and it would be disrespectful and shameful for it to get derailed.

[dkbit98]

Pretty cool news, both Passport "Founder's Edition" and "Batch 2" are now updated and properly marked as verified for the latest firmware, v2.1.2, on the Wallet Scrutiny website!

Nice work!
It's interesting that Coldcard also appeared on WalletScrutiny website, and I don't remember I noticed it before.
Cypherock X1 wallet also made it in top 7 list of reproducible HW.

I see Passport Founder's Edition is showing Discontinued note, but can they still be used with latest firmware updates, and what are the main difference compared with Batch2 in main board level?
Case is much better in new model, as well as display, but I was asking about chips, processors and code.

I know that you are throwing a punch at NVK and ColdCard (rightly so), but did I miss some drama between the teams of Passport Foundation and ColdCard? Did NVK question the verifiable or open-source nature of Passport devices? Just for the record, although I am sure you know, Coldcard not being open-source doesn't make their code not verifiable and nonreproducible. Even WalletScrutiny has marked it properly on their website.

He would probably be terrible in role of Satoshi.  
I don't want to talk about NVK, and I don't know what is in his head, but I think he felt his business was going down after Passport appeared and he didn't like that someone else (other than him) is using open source code.
Let's get back on topic - Passport wallet.

[foundationdvcs]

We dropped a new blog post that I thought was worth sharing here, as we're coupling it with a commitment to transition Passport to 12 words by default in an upcoming firmware release and in new packaging (as well as any future hardware wallets):

https://foundationdevices.com/2023/06/make-12-words-the-standard/

Would love to hear all of your thoughts on the topic! We will of course never force anyone to transition an existing 24 word seed, and will always give the option of 24 words for those who want to use one. This will just affect the default for new users 

[n0nce]

I see Passport Founder's Edition is showing Discontinued note, but can they still be used with latest firmware updates?

FE does run the latest firmware, yes.

What are the main difference compared with Batch2 in main board level?

There are some high-level block diagrams on GitHub (of course also the actual schematics), but the general architecture has barely changed:

Founders Edition:

Batch 2:

Case is much better in new model, as well as display, but I was asking about chips, processors and code.

You have to look more into the hardware repos I linked to, but from what I recall, the new hardware is only very slightly different. The codebase is now identical for both devices.

[JayJuanGee]

~

Thanks for the info, but let's try to refrain from turning this thread into a "He said, She said" bickering match.  I know some members can't refrain themselves from stirring drama, but so far this thread has been steadfast in sticking to the topic at hand, and it would be disrespectful and shameful for it to get derailed.

I think that this kind of commentary is fair to the topic of any product that has competitors (and if they are similar or sharing code), and very well and seemingly fairly presented by RickDeckard.. as usual RD provides sources for his assertion and seems to describe what is going on in a mostly reasonable way - even if some of it might be tied to his opinion, too.

One of the matters regarding the creation of an "official thread" should have been to create this thread as "Self-Moderated," and so it seems that OP had made the mistake of not making this thread self-moderated (which I believe cannot be changed after the thread has been started as not self-moderated), but OP could make a new self-moderated thread if he believes that some of the criticisms and/or drama might be going too far, too distracting and taking away from the topic overall (or maybe his preference to promote the product without having some potentially heavy hitting contrary statements....and if he would like to have a more clean thread that he is able to control any kind of controversial commentary that might come into the thread, then he would likely need to create a new self-moderated thread (unless there is a way to change it to self-moderated after it had already been created, which I doubt.. I think that the forum does not like to change threads in the self-moderated kind of a way after they have already been started). 

Surely, I had heard some of the accusations that Foundation had stole the code from the cold card, and whether those are fair-game criticisms may well be taken into account in any thread that is not self-moderated...so long as there are attempts to otherwise stay topical.. and whether or not personalities might be relevant to the conversation, too.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Would love to hear all of your thoughts on the topic!

Can I suggest some corrections? I suspect you already know these things, but it is better to be precise rather than to attempt to simplify things and end up presenting inaccurate information.

In Bitcoin, a private key is created through simply choosing a random number between 1 and 2^255 (that’s over 115 quattuorvigintillion for those of you keeping score).

The range is not 1 to 2²⁵⁵, but rather 1 to just under 2²⁵⁶. If you wanted to be really precise, 1 to 2^{255.999999999999...}. By saying 2²⁵⁵, you are actually cutting the number of valid private keys in half. 2²⁵⁵ also doesn't match with the 115 quattuorvigintillion figure you then use (which is indeed 2²⁵⁶).

The reason this number must be between 1 and 2^255 is that Bitcoin uses a 256-bit elliptic curve called secp256k1, so the most secure random number for your private key will be a 256-bit number.

That's not accurate either. If we assume all private keys are generated randomly, then half of them will have a leading zero and therefore be at most 255 bits. A quarter of them will have two leading zeroes and will be at most 254 bits. And so on. These keys aren't any less secure. If you force all private keys to be 256 bits long (i.e. start with a 1 rather than a 0), then again you are excluding half of all possible private keys.

When you choose a number, this is translated to points on this elliptic curve (a type of graph, in essence), giving you a fully functional private key from that one number.

I think you mean "fully functional public key" here. That one number is your private key. The private key does not need to be generated from that number, only the public key does.

As a set of words in the same order will always generate the same private key,

This should read "private keys".

When using a 12 word seed phrase there are 2048^12 possibilities, or 5,444,517,870,735,015,415,413,993,718,908,291,383,296.

This isn't strictly correct since with a 12 word seed phrase, 15 of every 16 possibilities on average can be immediately discarded due to an invalid checksum. The number used should be 2¹²⁸, not 2048¹² (which is 2¹³²).

[foundationdvcs]

Would love to hear all of your thoughts on the topic!

Can I suggest some corrections? I suspect you already know these things, but it is better to be precise rather than to attempt to simplify things and end up presenting inaccurate information.
...snip...

Thank you, those are excellent corrections! You're correct that they're all technically true and I was oversimplifying a bit to make it approachable, but took your advice and found ways to integrate it without overcomplicating the messaging, I think.

[Pmalek]

We dropped a new blog post that I thought was worth sharing here, as we're coupling it with a commitment to transition Passport to 12 words by default in an upcoming firmware release and in new packaging (as well as any future hardware wallets):

https://foundationdevices.com/2023/06/make-12-words-the-standard/

Well, since Bitcoin private keys have 128 bits of entropy, you aren't improving the security of those keys by increasing the entropy of your seed. That's the gist of it. It's like making your wall stronger without realizing you have a glass window that is easier to break through. The security of Bitcon private keys isn't comparable to glass windows, I am just trying to make a point.

What did you mean when you said the following in your blog post:

We do still think it’s important to abstract away the foreign concept of seed words whenever possible, but we will always want our users to be able to easily move to other wallets...

Do you not like the term "seed" and would like to see a different one? Or, do you not like the seed itself, as in the 12/24 words we use for backups?

[foundationdvcs]

We dropped a new blog post that I thought was worth sharing here, as we're coupling it with a commitment to transition Passport to 12 words by default in an upcoming firmware release and in new packaging (as well as any future hardware wallets):

https://foundationdevices.com/2023/06/make-12-words-the-standard/

Well, since Bitcoin private keys have 128 bits of entropy, you aren't improving the security of those keys by increasing the entropy of your seed. That's the gist of it. It's like making your wall stronger without realizing you have a glass window that is easier to break through. The security of Bitcon private keys isn't comparable to glass windows, I am just trying to make a point.

What did you mean when you said the following in your blog post:

We do still think it’s important to abstract away the foreign concept of seed words whenever possible, but we will always want our users to be able to easily move to other wallets...

Do you not like the term "seed" and would like to see a different one? Or, do you not like the seed itself, as in the 12/24 words we use for backups?

Spot on with the analogy!

The user experience of seed phrases can be quite poor, so we're continually looking for ways that we can abstract away the seed phrase experience for new users especially. Not an easy problem to solve, though!

[o_e_l_e_o]

Well, since Bitcoin private keys have 128 bits of entropy

128 bits of security. Their bits of entropy will depend on how they were generated, for a maximum of 256 bits.

My only concern with using 12 words is you cap your entropy at a maximum of 128 bits. If your entropy is generated properly, then your private keys will have 128 bits of entropy and 128 bits of security. But if your entropy generation process is flawed, you can reduce the entropy and therefore the security of your keys below 128 bits.

If you use 24 words and your entropy generation process is flawed, you can reduce your entropy much below 256 bits while still keeping 128 bits of security.

[Pmalek]

The user experience of seed phrases can be quite poor, so we're continually looking for ways that we can abstract away the seed phrase experience for new users especially. Not an easy problem to solve, though!

I might be a bit old-fashioned but I have always been of the opinion that if it isn't broken, don't fix it. I think that users who aren't capable of writing down and storing 12 English words in paper format are too spoiled and crypto might not be suitable for them. If they can't even do that, I see them struggle with other essential elements of the game.

Still, it's good that you trying to simplify an already simple process. How is that going btw? What would you like to replace seeds with but still not impact the security of the new storage method?

[o_e_l_e_o]

What would you like to replace seeds with but still not impact the security of the new storage method?

The problem with coming up with your own system is exactly that - it is your own system, which no one else uses. You therefore lock the user in to your ecosystem and entirely dependent on your products if they want to recover their coins in the future, which is a dangerous scenario to be in. If you give users the option of using a seed phrases alongside your new system, then there are two possibilities. Either the user ignores the seed phrase and just uses your system in which case you are back in the same scenario, or the user uses both systems in which case your system hasn't removed the need for seed phrases at all.

Happy to be proven wrong, but I just don't see how this would work.

[Pmalek]

<Snip>

With seed phrases, you always have the freedom to recover your coins elsewhere for any reason. With a "Foundation Passport Backup System X", you are stuck with that one product because no one else supports your recovery scheme. Unless, of course, you can get some other wallets to implement it as well. And if there is a bug or it malfunctions, you will be required to wait until the devs find a way to fix it. Not to mention the devastation if they completely abandon it or it breaks down for whatever reason.

[foundationdvcs]

Just to clarify and alleviate some concerns, no solution we come up with for backups would lock a user into our ecosystem, it would always be portable in some way.

Magic Backups for Envoy's mobile wallet (not applicable for Passport) are a perfect example of that, where a user can use Envoy and never realize there is a seed phrase behind it, but can *always* recover funds in any wallet through the settings, where they can find a standard seed phrase. We also will be adding in prompts for users after a certain time period to back up the seed itself for maximum sovereignty, but we want options that allow users to start in a seedless manner.

But nothing we ever build will lock users into a walled garden, and will always have industry standards under the hood and accessible to users in an emergency (like BIP 39).

[Pmalek]

Magic Backups for Envoy are a perfect example of that, where a user can use Envoy and never realize there is a seed phrase behind it, but can *always* recover funds in any wallet through the settings, where they can find a standard seed phrase.

I am not familiar with Envoy or Magic Backups, but I just looked at your YouTube video where you explain the backup process. It involves storing sensitive information in digital form and on Passport servers. Encrypted and hashed but this is still a potential security threat. And it's a less secure way of storing private data than offline physical backups on paper, metal, etc.   

[n0nce]

<Snip>

With seed phrases, you always have the freedom to recover your coins elsewhere for any reason. With a "Foundation Passport Backup System X", you are stuck with that one product
[...]

I'm not sure about the new recovery system, but until now, the microSD backups were just encrypted files that you could open on any computer and unzip, giving you a regular old seed phrase to import anywhere you like.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Yeah, I had no idea this was a "feature" Envoy offered...

Since most users have iCloud Keychain or Android Auto Backup enabled, the seed is automatically synced to your other iOS or Android devices – fully end-to-end encrypted, without needing to give Envoy permission to access your iCloud or Google account.

I'm sorry, but this is horrible. You reduce the security of your seed phrase, and therefore all your coins, to the security of your Apple or Google account, which in many cases is only a simple password (and often a leaked or reused one at that!) or an insecure 2FA method which can be fairly easily
intercepted such as SMS. I would also wager that the subset of users who feel they cannot use a seed phrase properly and would back up their seed phrase to the cloud overlaps pretty heavily with the subset of users who have substandard account security or general security practices.

Is this in any way usable with a Passport, or is it confined to Envoy only?

[Pmalek]

I'm not sure about the new recovery system, but until now, the microSD backups were just encrypted files that you could open on any computer and unzip, giving you a regular old seed phrase to import anywhere you like.

Digital or online/cloud backups as replacement for physical offline copies of seeds isn't and shouldn't become any sort of standard in the future. If it was Ledger that had something like that, everyone would lose their mind. I understand it's optional and you don't have to use it, but it's a dangerous option to have.

[n0nce]

You reduce the security of your seed phrase, and therefore all your coins, to the security of your Apple or Google account, which in many cases is only a simple password (and often a leaked or reused one at that!) or an insecure 2FA method which can be fairly easily intercepted such as SMS.

Your statement is unfortunately somewhat inaccurate. I'm not completely sure about the details, but both platforms require using 2FA, without an option to skip it.

From what I can tell, Apple requires 'hardware 2FA' which as a side effect notifies the user on all their devices when someone tries to log in on a new device:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204915

Google apparently does allow you to use highly insecure SMS 2FA, but at least they advise against it, for what it's worth...

We recommend you use Google prompts as your second step. They’re easier to enter than a verification code and can help protect against SIM swap and other phone number-based hacks.

I've also read about the way iCloud encryption keys are generated and to the best of my knowledge, there is no known bypass / successful attack to date, besides (obviously) first- and second-factor compromise. I do think Google Cloud contents have been leaked in the past, although if they use good encryption, that shouldn't be a problem.
Let's keep in mind that we're talking about backing up a hot wallet here. So compromising the second factor for your cloud (your phone) is equivalent to compromising your hot wallet. No added risk through the backup, and added safety against data loss (e.g. through device destruction).

Bottom line is: if you have strong encryption of your files, you can post the backups anywhere you want, even on a public forum. But the question remains: how to back up these encryption keys. In case you have a secure enclave on your hardware that you trust to generate and store such keys, you do 'reduce' (in the logical sense; not quantifying) the security of your seed phrase to the security of this hardware.

I think it's fine to have such a solution, if users are aware of this fact and this circumstance is made explicitly clear.


I'm not interested in this cloud backup myself, because I'm happy with my current backup solutions. However I like the idea of having a way to back up the wallet configuration (user settings, account labels, ...) - without private keys. I even pondered about a standardized format for this a while back; something like a universal 'wallet export / import format'.


Edit: From what I can tell, this cloud backup only refers to the hot wallet, making it completely 'fine'. To the best of my knowledge, Envoy cannot access Passport's seed phrase at all; that's the whole point of a hardware wallet.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

The range is not 1 to 2²⁵⁵, but rather 1 to just under 2²⁵⁶. <snip>

Wow, your complication of their simplification taught me more about crypto than I've probably learned in the last 6 years (and yeah, I'm that ignorant of what's under the hood).  Hope it's not too off-topic to thank you for that with a comment and some merits.

Digital or online/cloud backups as replacement for physical offline copies of seeds isn't and shouldn't become any sort of standard in the future. If it was Ledger that had something like that, everyone would lose their mind. I understand it's optional and you don't have to use it, but it's a dangerous option to have.

I absolutely agree with you, and that pearl of wisdom I'm happy to say I did know.  Ledger announced their recovery thing in an attempt to bring their wallets to the unwashed masses, who probably aren't nearly as paranoid as they should be about crypto.  What I hope is that making devices less secure so as to make them more marketable doesn't become a trend among HW wallet manufacturers--or at least that they make things like cloud backup and recovery via distributed shards and who knows what else optional rather than required.

And that they're transparent about it, too.  I'm lookin' right at you, Ledger.  Tsk tsk.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I'm not completely sure about the details, but both platforms require using 2FA, without an option to skip it.

I've never had either an Apple nor a Google account, but I know both used to be accessible only via an email/password combo. If they both now mandate 2FA, then that is somewhat better. However, I suspect both still have procedures in place which would allow someone who has lost their 2FA device, be that their phone or a hardware key, to recover access to the account via some kind of social recovery or KYC, which is highly insecure. Happy to be proven wrong again.

Let's keep in mind that we're talking about backing up a hot wallet here.

That's what I was hoping for clarification on as I asked above. That this is completely confined to Envoy and there are no plans for anything remotely similar on Passport? I was a little concerned that Magic Backups were brought up in response to a discussion about Passport implementing something different to seed phrases...

[Pmalek]

I've never had either an Apple nor a Google account, but I know both used to be accessible only via an email/password combo.

They still are. I had to create a Google account a few months ago for my job, and an email + password is all you need. 2FA is an optional feature.
I also changed the password for one of my personal Google accounts around the same timeframe, and I wasn't asked to input any 2FA codes as an added security measure. The usual entry of the old and new passwords was all that was needed. 

[Agbe]

The device is nice from mere distance looking at it. But I don't know when it is seeing in a close range. And also the OP would have given the break down of the price to different continent so that those who are interested would click the link and make an order for shipping. I even checked the website but there is no such order link. Things like this one can't have too much input without using the device. Though you can make some lite input but not in-depth.

[o_e_l_e_o]

They still are. I had to create a Google account a few months ago for my job, and an email + password is all you need. 2FA is an optional feature.

So just to confirm - if your password is hacked, leaked, keylogged, haveibeenpwned.com, etc., then all I need to do is take any old phone, log in to your Google account, sync your back ups to this phone, and now I have your seed phrase and can empty your wallets?

[zherbert]

Hi all, just to confirm, Magic Backups is for our Envoy hot wallet only. It has nothing to do with Passport.

We are building out Envoy into a fully featured standalone mobile wallet complete with in-depth account management and privacy features. Magic Backups is a really great way for new Bitcoiners to get set up and running with a mobile wallet in 60 seconds, fully self custodial, with what I would argue are reasonable security tradeoffs.

Passport will never have any kind of backup system where the seed touches the internet, even in an encrypted form.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Passport will never have any kind of backup system where the seed touches the internet, even in an encrypted form.

Thanks for the confirmation Zach. I suppose you would have to be crazy to implement any such system given the fallout from the recent Ledger debacle.

Can you provide clarification on the question I asked above? I don't have a Google or Apple account and have no intention of ever creating one, but is it really as simple as if someone accesses your username/email and password, then they can recover your Envoy wallet and steal your coins?

[n0nce]

The device is nice from mere distance looking at it. But I don't know when it is seeing in a close range. And also the OP would have given the break down of the price to different continent so that those who are interested would click the link and make an order for shipping. I even checked the website but there is no such order link. Things like this one can't have too much input without using the device. Though you can make some lite input but not in-depth.

I have a few somewhat close-up pictures in my reviews:

• Passport Founders Edition
  
• Passport Batch 2
  

They also have video setup instructions here that may help you get a better understanding of the look & feel of the device, as well as the user interface.

You can even try out the device in a simulator, as I explain here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5421713.msg61304211#msg61304211

Passport will never have any kind of backup system where the seed touches the internet, even in an encrypted form.

Let me archive this, just in case.

I don't have a Google or Apple account and have no intention of ever creating one, but is it really as simple as if someone accesses your username/email and password, then they can recover your Envoy wallet and steal your coins?

I may try to do this 'attack' later this week on some burner devices, but I'd assume that compromising someone's credentials would indeed give you full access to their hot wallet seed.
Part of the reasoning is apparently that many users back up their device to their cloud provider (including app data, of course) anyway (correct me if I'm wrong), but it would be better if they had numbers backing that up.

[foundationdvcs]

Yeah, I had no idea this was a "feature" Envoy offered...

Since most users have iCloud Keychain or Android Auto Backup enabled, the seed is automatically synced to your other iOS or Android devices – fully end-to-end encrypted, without needing to give Envoy permission to access your iCloud or Google account.

I'm sorry, but this is horrible. You reduce the security of your seed phrase, and therefore all your coins, to the security of your Apple or Google account, which in many cases is only a simple password (and often a leaked or reused one at that!) or an insecure 2FA method which can be fairly easily
intercepted such as SMS. I would also wager that the subset of users who feel they cannot use a seed phrase properly and would back up their seed phrase to the cloud overlaps pretty heavily with the subset of users who have substandard account security or general security practices.

Is this in any way usable with a Passport, or is it confined to Envoy only?

This is absolutely only possible for Envoy's mobile wallet seed, and not ever possible for Passport's seed. Those are *very* different threat models, and Magic Backups only make sense for a mobile wallet with a small amount of funds. As this is all open source anyone can verify this, but due to Passport's airgapped nature there isn't even a way to easily do this if you wanted to (and of course we don't want users backing up there Passport cold wallet seed into the cloud).

This approach is a great fit for onboarding new users with small amounts, and we both always allow seed export from the app and will be adding prompts to have people backup their seed phrases separately down the road after onboarding as well for full sovereignty. Magic Backups are 100% optional and 100% open source, no one has to use them, and those who opt-in can only use them with Envoy's mobile wallet portion which should of course only be used for small amounts!

Apologies for the confusion there, I could have been clearer with the language used!

Can you provide clarification on the question I asked above? I don't have a Google or Apple account and have no intention of ever creating one, but is it really as simple as if someone accesses your username/email and password, then they can recover your Envoy wallet and steal your coins?

It is not that simple, as both accounts should be protected by 2FA. In reality an attacker would need to compromise your Apple/Google email and password, as well as SIM swap you (assuming you used SMS for 2FA). If the user does not have 2FA, then yes, their account could be logged into on a new device owned by the attacker, Envoy installed, and then funds swept as the seed is stored end-to-end encrypted and secured with their account.

If a user has hardware key or TOTP 2FA enabled than it would be practically impossible without a sophisticated spear phishing attack.

And remember this is only for a mobile wallet, and can never be for cold storage! So ideally users just have spending money in this wallet. If a user's Apple or Google account was 100% compromised for this (they would have to be able to fully login and setup a new device with their account) they would have larger problems, as they are also likely storing their bank login etc. within the same storage mechanism as we are using.

The issue with adding any other secret on top of their Apple/Google account is that you're back to square one with needing to have the user record a secret and verify it before they can start using a Bitcoin wallet. Magic Backups provide a sane and open-source alternative to that flow that does not give up custody and does not give up privacy, but it does of course change the attack vectors over a standard seed phrase backup.

That is why we will always have the option for a user to generate or import a seed phrase and leverage a manual backup, but we wanted more of an in-between solution that maximized security as much as possible while greatly simplifying the onboarding flow for new users.

Digital or online/cloud backups as replacement for physical offline copies of seeds isn't and shouldn't become any sort of standard in the future. If it was Ledger that had something like that, everyone would lose their mind. I understand it's optional and you don't have to use it, but it's a dangerous option to have.

Agreed that this is certainly something that would be a bad idea for cold storage seed phrases, and differs heavily from Ledger in that it's only for hot/mobile wallet and all code is 100% open source and verifiable. There is no need to take our word for it, unlike Ledger, and we would love any code review and comments from those who have the time and expertise!

We feel that Magic Backups can greatly aid onboarding new users to Bitcoin in a way that is drastically easier, without giving up custody and with an easy path to a more standard seed backup once they're comfortable with that. Once a user backs up their seed, we also have the functionality directly in Envoy to delete their seed from their Apple/Google account and delete their app data (we never store their seed, even encrypted) from Foundation's servers, if they so choose.

[Agbe]

The device is nice from mere distance looking at it. But I don't know when it is seeing in a close range. And also the OP would have given the break down of the price to different continent so that those who are interested would click the link and make an order for shipping. I even checked the website but there is no such order link. Things like this one can't have too much input without using the device. Though you can make some lite input but not in-depth.

I have a few somewhat close-up pictures in my reviews:

• Passport Founders Edition
  
• Passport Batch 2
  

They also have video setup instructions here that may help you get a better understanding of the look & feel of the device, as well as the user interface.

You can even try out the device in a simulator, as I explain here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5421713.msg61304211#msg61304211

Thank you for reminding me again, I totally forgot that you created such thread last year. As it is said the device is good and also as I said, I can't judge the device from a distance of just looking at the image and it description. In most time when we order things online, what we received from the company is different from what we order. I have discussed with them on rhe telegram channel to send me the order link so I do it from there.

[Pmalek]

So just to confirm - if your password is hacked, leaked, keylogged, haveibeenpwned.com, etc., then all I need to do is take any old phone, log in to your Google account, sync your back ups to this phone, and now I have your seed phrase and can empty your wallets?

It's hard to say really, and I am not sure. Google products have SMS 2FA verification and even email confirmation. If they notice different IP ranges, you might have to verify yourself over SMS/email. Google probably keeps identifiable data on the devices that have logged in in the past and request more verification when a new one is detected. Additionally, Envoy's backups seem to be encrypted, so you would get an encrypted file at worst. 

[dkbit98]

I'm not interested in this cloud backup myself, because I'm happy with my current backup solutions. However I like the idea of having a way to back up the wallet configuration (user settings, account labels, ...) - without private keys. I even pondered about a standardized format for this a while back; something like a universal 'wallet export / import format'.

That would be a good idea to have, losing labels is almost like losing all your history and content behind all your transactions.
I think some other hardware wallets have a way of exporting and saving this, but I would like to have something like smartphones have, export all settings and data in encrypted offline way.

From what I can tell, this cloud backup only refers to the hot wallet, making it completely 'fine'. To the best of my knowledge, Envoy cannot access Passport's seed phrase at all; that's the whole point of a hardware wallet.

Export to cloud is bad in my opinion for both hot and cold wallets, but I hope this is at least optional ''feature''.
If I remember correctly this ''secure'' iCloud was recently hacked and I don't trust any cloud solutions very, much, that is just other people hard drives.

Hi all, just to confirm, Magic Backups is for our Envoy hot wallet only. It has nothing to do with Passport.

But Envoy is connected with Passport so this can be confusing for some people.
I would add clear notification that holding anything in cloud is never going to be secure as keeping backup offline.
Is Magic Backups feature optional or not?

We feel that Magic Backups can greatly aid onboarding new users to Bitcoin in a way that is drastically easier, without giving up custody and with an easy path to a more standard seed backup once they're comfortable with that. Once a user backs up their seed, we also have the functionality directly in Envoy to delete their seed from their Apple/Google account and delete their app data (we never store their seed, even encrypted) from Foundation's servers, if they so choose.

Easier is not better option most of the time.
Hunter Biden had all his dirty photos saved in his ''secure'' iCloud account, and look how that ended up.  

[o_e_l_e_o]

Those are *very* different threat models, and Magic Backups only make sense for a mobile wallet with a small amount of funds.

I appreciate that completely, but we both know people store large amounts of money on mobile wallets when they shouldn't.

It is not that simple, as both accounts should be protected by 2FA.

Again, should be, but we both know lots of people don't use 2FA, use weak passwords, reuse passwords, have had passwords leaked in various databases such as haveibeenpwned, and so forth. In an ideal world an encrypted back up stored in the cloud secured by a long and random password and hardware 2FA key is very secure, but very few people actually use this set up, and the people who do use a secure set up like this will likely be using seed phrases and not cloud back up in the first place. As I mentioned above, I suspect the subset of users who would back up their seed phrase to the cloud overlaps pretty heavily with the subset of users who have substandard account security or general security practices.

Once a user backs up their seed, we also have the functionality directly in Envoy to delete their seed from their Apple/Google account and delete their app data (we never store their seed, even encrypted) from Foundation's servers, if they so choose.

Maybe it will be deleted from your account, but I doubt very much Google actually ever delete anything. Data makes them money. Google have been fined in multiple jurisdictions for collecting data they weren't meant to or not deleting data they were meant to. Not to mention it could have been leaked, hacked, stolen, shared, or whatever from the many servers around the world it is likely duplicated on. Once your back up has been exposed to the cloud, you should assume it is there permanently. The only safe course of action here is to move all your coins to new wallet.

I appreciate this is optional, and I appreciate it is only for the hot mobile wallet, but I am of the opinion that cloud storage is never secure.

[Pmalek]

Is Magic Backups feature optional or not?

foundationdvcs said that they are optional and only related to the hot wallets created on Envoy. You can't backup your Passport seed in this way.

Magic Backups are 100% optional...

On request, the data can be deleted. Whether or not you want to trust Google and Apple that they have permanently deleted your files off of every single server they own is another question.

[RickDeckard]

However, as for the new device, it seems that it will be even better than the previous two, so the question arises, is it worth waiting for it to become available or buying the current version? Is there somewhere an official counter of how many units have been sold so far, or how many are still available in total?

While I can't say too much about the new device, it will be in a bit of a different vein than the current one. If you love the current approach of Passport, the current gen will be a good fit for a long time! Our plan is to sell them alongside each other most likely as they will serve different use-cases and compliment each other well.

Yesterday, out of nowhere, I had an idea/guess regarding this new device you're working on - Would it make sense to be something to co-exist with products such as Ronin Dojo Tanto[1], myNode[2] and others alike? From my perspective it would make sense considering your mission[3]:

Foundation builds Bitcoin-centric tools that empower you to reclaim your digital sovereignty.

You are already providing a great tool regarding taking control of our money (and data) by means of being total open source, so the only part that is left is making sure that we are safe from prying eyes whenever we interact with that same data (and money). This would be where such devices would enter - taking the same approach that you did with Foundation Passport - such device, fully open sourced as well as their components, would allow to close the circle and cut ties with any kind of intermediate running a node or even blockchain explorers. Total digital sovereignty in it's pinnacle.

I might have gone rogue on this idea but I couldn't stop to share with the community .
[1]https://ronindojo.io/en/tanto
[2]https://mynodebtc.com/order_now

[n0nce]

~

I like your line of thought! Fully agree that running your own node is basically a necessity.
I've shown myself how to do it (hardware and software), even on the cheap, but do also like the idea of 'node in a box' solutions.
The main benefits I see are:

• Easier setup for new users (some options have great-looking GUIs for installing everything)
• Smaller form factor
• Lower power usage

Because of points 2 and 3, I've even considered building something small and efficient myself, e.g. based on the Argon One M.2 case for the Raspberry Pi 4B.

[foundationdvcs]

I'm not interested in this cloud backup myself, because I'm happy with my current backup solutions. However I like the idea of having a way to back up the wallet configuration (user settings, account labels, ...) - without private keys. I even pondered about a standardized format for this a while back; something like a universal 'wallet export / import format'.

That would be a good idea to have, losing labels is almost like losing all your history and content behind all your transactions.
I think some other hardware wallets have a way of exporting and saving this, but I would like to have something like smartphones have, export all settings and data in encrypted offline way.

This is actually available if you use your own seed with Envoy's mobile wallet, as you are then prompted to save the Envoy backup file somewhere, which includes wallet settings, labels, etc. without any private key. You can also do this at any time manually if you use Magic Backups under the Backups settings so you can always restore, even if Foundation's servers ceased to exist for some reason.

Hi all, just to confirm, Magic Backups is for our Envoy hot wallet only. It has nothing to do with Passport.

But Envoy is connected with Passport so this can be confusing for some people.
I would add clear notification that holding anything in cloud is never going to be secure as keeping backup offline.
Is Magic Backups feature optional or not?

100% optional for mobile wallets, and intentionally impossible to use with Passport itself. Users are prompted on setup if they want to use Magic Backups or manual seed phrase, and both are always an option. We will *never* lock our users into features like this, and will always support the more advanced, more fully self-sovereign approaches. That is a key part of our company DNA and will not change!

I appreciate this is optional, and I appreciate it is only for the hot mobile wallet, but I am of the opinion that cloud storage is never secure.

Appreciate your input, sounds like you are definitely someone who will not be using Magic Backups and that is totally fine! We want to support people opting into Bitcoin from all walks of life, and not everyone is comfortable with manual seed phrases from day one. Envoy will prompt users to backup their seed manually as well, and will remind people to stop using a mobile wallet for all of their funds if they have over $1,000 stored there starting with the next update.

We will continue to push users to the fully self-sovereign path and simplify that where we can, and will always support users like yourself (and even parts of our team!) who would not feel comfortable putting any private key material online, even if encrypted.

[RickDeckard]

Foundation has just released[1] quite a considerable upgrade regarding their firmware version (Envoy) (they went directly to v1.3.0 (they were on v1.1.0) and I think that is more than reasonable. There are a ton of quality improvements and bug fixes, but I'll just point out two that stood out to me: Azte.co[2][3] integration and the possibility for anyone that has the Founder edition to update within Envoy (no one is left behind!). Tremendous job @foundationdvcs, keep it up!  

EDIT: Per satscraper reply bellow, I've updated the thread with additional information - This update is applied to the Envoy app and not the firmware running on their devices. Thank you satscraper!
[1]https://foundationdevices.com/2023/07/envoy-version-1-3-0-is-now-live/
[2]https://azte.co/
[3]https://bitcoiner.guide/azteco/

[satscraper]

Foundation has just released[1] quite a considerable upgrade regarding their firmware version (they went directly to v1.3.0 (they were on v1.1.0)
[1]https://foundationdevices.com/2023/07/envoy-version-1-3-0-is-now-live/
[2]https://azte.co/
[3]https://bitcoiner.guide/azteco/

You meant they released update regarding Envoy rather that firmware that runs on their devices. I have just checked their official download page for firmware - it remains the same -  

Envoy is mobile app that accompanies Passport device.

[foundationdvcs]

Just wanted to drop a quick note to let you all know that Passport is officially back in stock today after the crazy sellout in May!

Great time to get one for family or friends, and we've included some minor revisions to improve the keypad and microSD tray in this production run as well thanks to excellent feedback from many of you in our fantastic community.

foundationdevices.com/passport

We will also be announcing a unique new beta program for Passport firmware with some awesome incentives later today, so keep an eye out for that!

[Pmalek]

We will also be announcing a unique new beta program for Passport firmware with some awesome incentives later today, so keep an eye out for that!

I am guessing you need beta testers who will be inspecting and working with upcoming firmware versions and reporting their findings and bugs. Even though Passport is an airgapped hardware wallet, everyone interested in beta testing should probably wipe their devices clean before installing the beta software to avoid any potential problems happening to their coins. Generating a new seed and new wallets with little bit of BTC inside would be my way of conducting any tests required.

[foundationdvcs]

Join our Envoy and Passport Early Access Rewards Program & Earn Bitcoin!

👉 Be the first to report any reproducible issue for Passport or Envoy beta releases and get a 10k Satoshi bounty in Bitcoin!

🔍 How to Participate

1. Test the beta releases for Passport firmware or Envoy app.
2. Report issues on Github.
3. All issues (the first time they are reported) are eligible for the 10k Satoshi reward.
4. Foundation team members will validate the issues for eligibility.
5. Rewards sent directly to your provided Bitcoin address or Lightning invoice.

Join the community, help us improve, and get rewarded in Bitcoin for your valuable contributions! 🎉

Learn more in our full blog post:

https://foundationdevices.com/2023/08/announcing-our-early-access-rewards-program/

P.S. -- We'll also be offering the top contributors to the program early access to future hardware products we create, with more details on that aspect of the program to come. 👀

[RickDeckard]

Join our Envoy and Passport Early Access Rewards Program & Earn Bitcoin!

👉 Be the first to report any reproducible issue for Passport or Envoy beta releases and get a 10k Satoshi bounty in Bitcoin!
(...)
P.S. -- We'll also be offering the top contributors to the program early access to future hardware products we create, with more details on that aspect of the program to come. 👀

I think that having this kind of program is always beneficial to any company - It allows scrutiny and incentivizes the community to really dig into your releases to search for any potential flaw, earning some sats in the meantime. Congratulations on launching such program (unfortunately I lack the knowledge to help you on this regard)!

As an additional note from my side, three particular names come to my mind that may be interested in such program (looking at you guys - @n0nce, @satscraper and @BlackHatCoiner).

EDIT: I do like this particular paragraph on your announcement[1]:

We have multiple new products in the works, and we can’t wait to watch each of you help us to build and improve as we bring freedom tech to more and more people around the globe. As one of the top contributors to our Early Access Rewards program, you’ll get the chance to test our new products for free as a thank you for your contributions in exchange for feedback and bug reports.

Is this enough to justify saying: HYPE? 
[1]https://foundationdevices.com/2023/08/announcing-our-early-access-rewards-program/

[Volgastallion]

Sorry if im being so noob on this but, im not a professional in cyber-security.

I read your thread, and when i see you are using Sd memories, i have to say its one of the most corrupted things on tecnology. And im not talking about corupted by hacking or something, im talking about, i remember when the cellphones still use the Sd your archives can become corrupeted by no reason,i lost a lots of old photos saved on the Sd, so why if the data to unlock the wallet get corrupted?

Or im missunderstanding everything?

Thanks for your answers.

[dkbit98]

Join our Envoy and Passport Early Access Rewards Program & Earn Bitcoin!

Can people test and report bugs only for Envoy app even if they don't own a Passport device?

I read your thread, and when i see you are using Sd memories, i have to say its one of the most corrupted things on tecnology. And im not talking about corupted by hacking or something, im talking about, i remember when the cellphones still use the Sd your archives can become corrupeted by no reason,i lost a lots of old photos saved on the Sd, so why if the data to unlock the wallet get corrupted?

I think they are using industrial grade micro sd card that are like night & day compared to regular consumer garbage sd cards.
Anyway, you shouldn't really only on sd cards, you should always have backup phrase in multiple places, written on paper or even better on stainless steel plates or washers.

[foundationdvcs]

Join our Envoy and Passport Early Access Rewards Program & Earn Bitcoin!

👉 Be the first to report any reproducible issue for Passport or Envoy beta releases and get a 10k Satoshi bounty in Bitcoin!
(...)
P.S. -- We'll also be offering the top contributors to the program early access to future hardware products we create, with more details on that aspect of the program to come. 👀

I think that having this kind of program is always beneficial to any company - It allows scrutiny and incentivizes the community to really dig into your releases to search for any potential flaw, earning some sats in the meantime. Congratulations on launching such program (unfortunately I lack the knowledge to help you on this regard)!

As an additional note from my side, three particular names come to my mind that may be interested in such program (looking at you guys - @n0nce, @satscraper and @BlackHatCoiner).

EDIT: I do like this particular paragraph on your announcement[1]:

We have multiple new products in the works, and we can’t wait to watch each of you help us to build and improve as we bring freedom tech to more and more people around the globe. As one of the top contributors to our Early Access Rewards program, you’ll get the chance to test our new products for free as a thank you for your contributions in exchange for feedback and bug reports.

Is this enough to justify saying: HYPE? 
[1]https://foundationdevices.com/2023/08/announcing-our-early-access-rewards-program/

Hype is pretty accurate IMO  Our team's 3D printers have been brrr'ing non-stop for the past few months with prototypes...

As for the beta program, we're very hopeful this will help balance out the incentives behind community members testing our releases alongside of us, as well as simply make the process of open-source development more exciting for the non-devs out there. Lots to test in each release, and likely quite a bit of Bitcoin up for grabs with each one as well!

Join our Envoy and Passport Early Access Rewards Program & Earn Bitcoin!

Can people test and report bugs only for Envoy app even if they don't own a Passport device?

Oh, absolutely! Ideally we will have far more Envoy users than Passport users due to it's functionality as an easy-to-use Bitcoin mobile wallet, and would love testers with or without Passport. If you have a Passport there is obviously more functionality to test out, but the majority of the growth in the app planned is on the mobile side that anyone with a smartphone can test out.

...so why if the data to unlock the wallet get corrupted?

Or im missunderstanding everything?

Thanks for your answers.

@dkbit98 hit the nail on the head here, the microSD cards in use here are MILES apart from the old, cheap, low-quality cards we're all used to from early cell phones. These are high-quality, industrial-grade cards that have much better read-write longevity as well as "on the shelf" longevity.

But even if your microSD card fails, Passport would continue to be fully functional.

As for backups, while encrypted backups are written to microSD, you can always copy those files practically anywhere you want (just don't put them with your backup PIN code!) as they're an encrypted blob. It's also almost always best to have a separate backup of the seed words themselves, often on steel or similar as @dkbit98 also mentioned!

If you have any other more specific questions I'm always happy to answer them

[Volgastallion]

I read your thread, and when i see you are using Sd memories, i have to say its one of the most corrupted things on tecnology. And im not talking about corupted by hacking or something, im talking about, i remember when the cellphones still use the Sd your archives can become corrupeted by no reason,i lost a lots of old photos saved on the Sd, so why if the data to unlock the wallet get corrupted?

I think they are using industrial grade micro sd card that are like night & day compared to regular consumer garbage sd cards.
Anyway, you shouldn't really only on sd cards, you should always have backup phrase in multiple places, written on paper or even better on stainless steel plates or washers.

Well that its ok, but i still think it can be risky thinking on long term. A lot of years ago, i buy some high quality SD cards, and ended up not being so much diferent than cheap ones, only in speed terms they were far better. I know like you said industrial ones can be much better and diferent but i have my doubts after losing some very important memories thanks to corrupted Sdcards files.

...so why if the data to unlock the wallet get corrupted?

Or im missunderstanding everything?

Thanks for your answers.

@dkbit98 hit the nail on the head here, the microSD cards in use here are MILES apart from the old, cheap, low-quality cards we're all used to from early cell phones. These are high-quality, industrial-grade cards that have much better read-write longevity as well as "on the shelf" longevity.

But even if your microSD card fails, Passport would continue to be fully functional.

As for backups, while encrypted backups are written to microSD, you can always copy those files practically anywhere you want (just don't put them with your backup PIN code!) as they're an encrypted blob. It's also almost always best to have a separate backup of the seed words themselves, often on steel or similar as @dkbit98 also mentioned!

If you have any other more specific questions I'm always happy to answer them

Well, thanks for your answer, well yes you can copy but im somehow paranoic when i start to make copies of all the things, but well its a problem of myself.

[Pmalek]

Our team's 3D printers have been brrr'ing non-stop for the past few months with prototypes...

Can you reveal a bit more information about what you are working on? Are we talking about brand new Foundation Passport hardware wallets software and hardware-wise, or more simpler modifications to the existing version like a lite variant that will be made of lower quality materials and be cheaper? Or perhaps the company is releasing something different entirely... 

[RickDeckard]

Well that its ok, but i still think it can be risky thinking on long term. A lot of years ago, i buy some high quality SD cards, and ended up not being so much diferent than cheap ones, only in speed terms they were far better. I know like you said industrial ones can be much better and diferent but i have my doubts after losing some very important memories thanks to corrupted Sdcards files.

If you are interested in learning more about the SD card that is bundled with Passport, you can check out the datasheet here[1]. The NAND Flash Technology that the card uses is MLC (Multi-level cell) which is the second best option (the first one would be Single-level cell (SLC)):

MLC NAND
Pro: Cheaper than SLC - Con: Slower and less endurance than SLC

Multi-level cell (MLC) NAND stores multiple bits per cell, although the term MLC typically equates to 2 bits per cell. MLC has a higher data density than SLC so can therefore be produced in larger capacities. MLC has a good combination of price, performance, and endurance. However, MLC is more sensitive to data errors with 10,000 P/E cycles and therefore has a lower endurance compared to SLC. MLC is usually found in consumer products where endurance is less important.

[1]https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/669/SanDisk_02052018_SDSDAF3_SDSDQAF3-1285144.pdf
[2]https://www.kingston.com/unitedkingdom/en/blog/pc-performance/difference-between-slc-mlc-tlc-3d-nand

[satscraper]

I think they are using industrial grade micro sd card that are like night & day compared to regular consumer garbage sd cards.

Yeah, my Passport 2 is equipped with SanDisk Industrial XI 8 GB micro card which  is marked as Industrial but if you look at its  NAND Flash Tech and Endurance (main specs that differ cards) it is closer to Commercial grade (or one may call it Industrial MLC) rather than Industrial one, which is sigh-induced situation in this case.

https://documents.westerndigital.com/content/dam/doc-library/en_us/assets/public/western-digital/product/embedded-flash/industrial-sd-microsd-series/WDC_SanDisk_Industrial_SD_microSD_ProdBrief_020918.pdf

[Volgastallion]

Well that its ok, but i still think it can be risky thinking on long term. A lot of years ago, i buy some high quality SD cards, and ended up not being so much diferent than cheap ones, only in speed terms they were far better. I know like you said industrial ones can be much better and diferent but i have my doubts after losing some very important memories thanks to corrupted Sdcards files.

If you are interested in learning more about the SD card that is bundled with Passport, you can check out the datasheet here[1]. The NAND Flash Technology that the card uses is MLC (Multi-level cell) which is the second best option (the first one would be Single-level cell (SLC)):

Thanks man for sharing this info, im really impresed by the diference in the last one (QLC), welll anyways thanks all for your answer and i hope the best to the passport team, and also thank them for being active here and answer the questions of the comunity.

[dkbit98]

Hype is pretty accurate IMO   Our team's 3D printers have been brrr'ing non-stop for the past few months with prototypes...

Prototypes of new devices?
That sounds interesting and I know people who would be interested in participating some kind of beta testing program.
Even sharing .stl files for 3d printing and option to assemble our own devices would be a good idea, something like DIY Passport

Oh, absolutely! Ideally we will have far more Envoy users than Passport users due to it's functionality as an easy-to-use Bitcoin mobile wallet, and would love testers with or without Passport. If you have a Passport there is obviously more functionality to test out, but the majority of the growth in the app planned is on the mobile side that anyone with a smartphone can test out.

Nice.
I see lot of people having a problem to find good open source mobile wallet for Bitcoin, so I will download and test how Envoy works.
In general I can count on fingers all Android Bitcoin wallets, and most of them are not good.
Good mobile wallet should be open source, with option to run full node and option to connect with multiple brand of hardware wallets, or to work standalone.

Yeah, my Passport 2 is equipped with SanDisk Industrial XI 8 GB micro card which  is marked as Industrial but if you look at its  NAND Flash Tech and Endurance (main specs that differ cards) it is closer to Commercial grade (or one may call it Industrial MLC) rather than Industrial one, which is sigh-induced situation in this case.

But you won't use that sd-card all the time, not even near like you would use it in camera, phones or other devices, so chances of getting it corrupted in next few years is minimal to none (unless you operate centralized exchange cold storage).

[RickDeckard]

Prototypes of new devices?
That sounds interesting and I know people who would be interested in participating some kind of beta testing program.
Even sharing .stl files for 3d printing and option to assemble our own devices would be a good idea, something like DIY Passport

Foundation Devices already does this - If you go here[1] you'll find all the files that are used to produce Passport Batch 2. These files are specially handy if you need to replace a specific part of your device (or if you prefer to create a more custom look for it).
[1]https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport2-hardware/tree/main/mechanical/STEP%20Files

[satscraper]

Prototypes of new devices?
That sounds interesting and I know people who would be interested in participating some kind of beta testing program.
Even sharing .stl files for 3d printing and option to assemble our own devices would be a good idea, something like DIY Passport

I have already entertained thoughts of  DIY Passport. After studying their docs I have understood that the most challenging for me part of  such DIY project would be  the making of multilayer printed circuit board rather than 3d printing. For me, it would be hard, even impossible, to make at home.

Sure I could  order its manufacture on the side but it would  cost.

[n0nce]

Join our Envoy and Passport Early Access Rewards Program & Earn Bitcoin!

 Be the first to report any reproducible issue for Passport or Envoy beta releases and get a 10k Satoshi bounty in Bitcoin!

That sounds great! I usually try beta releases anyways, so I'll make sure to create GitHub issues whenever I find some bug or issue, from now on.
How about more hardware based issues / bugs / vulnerabilities?

In general I can count on fingers all Android Bitcoin wallets, and most of them are not good.
Good mobile wallet should be open source, with option to run full node and option to connect with multiple brand of hardware wallets, or to work standalone.

I've tried Envoy and it connects to my electrs server running on my Bitcoin node over Tor without issues.
One thing I'd appreciate is some kind of (hidden) log view where you can see whether / if it is stuck somewhere, e.g. when connecting to Tor, connecting to the server or something else. Just to make troubleshooting easier.

I have already entertained thoughts of  DIY Passport. After studying their docs I have understood that the most challenging for me part of  such DIY project would be  the making of multilayer printed circuit board rather than 3d printing. For me, it would be hard, even impossible, to make at home.

You should be able to just upload the Gerber files to a PCB manufacturer like PCBWay and get them to assemble the board for you, as well. Then print the housing, add keypad, camera and screen and put it all together.

I do think it's worth it to just buy the completed product from Foundation though.

[dkbit98]

Foundation Devices already does this - If you go here[1] you'll find all the files that are used to produce Passport Batch 2. These files are specially handy if you need to replace a specific part of your device (or if you prefer to create a more custom look for it).

I know about this, but I think it would be cool to order all parts in DIY kit package and assemble them at home, except parts that can be 3d printed anywhere.
This should reduce price significantly and I bet people would experiment more with printing custom cases.

I have already entertained thoughts of  DIY Passport. After studying their docs I have understood that the most challenging for me part of  such DIY project would be  the making of multilayer printed circuit board rather than 3d printing. For me, it would be hard, even impossible, to make at home.

If you are talking about PCB, this part can be ordered directly from Passport website, but I never made multilayer printed circuit board and I don't know how complicated this is.

I've tried Envoy and it connects to my electrs server running on my Bitcoin node over Tor without issues.

Do you know what is oldest Android version needed to run Envoy.
I tried on one older phone and I couldn't install it, and I even tried directly with .apk file, forced install but I could not open the app.

[NotATether]

I have already entertained thoughts of  DIY Passport. After studying their docs I have understood that the most challenging for me part of  such DIY project would be  the making of multilayer printed circuit board rather than 3d printing. For me, it would be hard, even impossible, to make at home.

You should be able to just upload the Gerber files to a PCB manufacturer like PCBWay and get them to assemble the board for you, as well. Then print the housing, add keypad, camera and screen and put it all together.

I don't think 3D printing works with electronic components. Except for maybe the case as dkbit98 hinted.

It seems that Foundation already provides the PCB designs so you don't have to worry about reconstructing it on that front - but how many people actually know how to connect the electronics together given the board? You'd basically have to be either an electronics engineer or a hobbyist to figure it out correctly.

[n0nce]

I think it would be cool to order all parts in DIY kit package and assemble them at home, except parts that can be 3d printed anywhere.
This should reduce price significantly ^{[emphasis mine]} and I bet people would experiment more with printing custom cases.

Cool? Yes. Cheaper? That's actually not always the case. I am no expert on product development, margins and so on, but I've experienced this as a customer once: a product which was offered as a fully assembled and DIY version, was cheaper to buy fully assembled.
I'm not sure if this is always the case, of course, as that was just one experience.

I imagine that it could also be a significant logistical overhead / nightmare to keep track of who bought a fully assembled, tested and QC'd device, who built it themselves, how to handle warranty cases, etc. to the point that any savings in assembly cost would be eaten up in the process.

If you are talking about PCB, this part can be ordered directly from Passport website, but I never made multilayer printed circuit board and I don't know how complicated this is.

Where's that?

Do you know what is oldest Android version needed to run Envoy.
I tried on one older phone and I couldn't install it, and I even tried directly with .apk file, forced install but I could not open the app.

I'm not sure, but according to their docs, Flutter apps should run on Android versions that support the API version 21 to 34:

Code:

Platform version    Supported
Android SDK 	    21-34

That corresponds to Android versions 5.0 and up.

Code:

Name                Version number(s)    API level         
Android Lollipop    5.0 – 5.0.2          21

How many people actually know how to connect the electronics together given the board? You'd basically have to be either an electronics engineer or a hobbyist to figure it out correctly.

That's all in the source files; since Passport is an open-source, open-hardware device. Although building one from scratch does certainly require some amount of skill.

[foundationdvcs]

In general I can count on fingers all Android Bitcoin wallets, and most of them are not good.
Good mobile wallet should be open source, with option to run full node and option to connect with multiple brand of hardware wallets, or to work standalone.

I've tried Envoy and it connects to my electrs server running on my Bitcoin node over Tor without issues.
One thing I'd appreciate is some kind of (hidden) log view where you can see whether / if it is stuck somewhere, e.g. when connecting to Tor, connecting to the server or something else. Just to make troubleshooting easier.

Noted, we do have some logging now that can be triggered but it has to be viewed externally. Will raise an internal issue on this!

Join our Envoy and Passport Early Access Rewards Program & Earn Bitcoin!

 Be the first to report any reproducible issue for Passport or Envoy beta releases and get a 10k Satoshi bounty in Bitcoin!

That sounds great! I usually try beta releases anyways, so I'll make sure to create GitHub issues whenever I find some bug or issue, from now on.
How about more hardware based issues / bugs / vulnerabilities?

Absolutely! We do have a separate vulnerabilities program for security issues that should be used for those types of reports, but for general bugs or issues they can definitely be submitted on Github. Our focus with the Early Access Rewards program is testing out firmware releases, but if you submit issues in Github that are tangential we'll take them on a case-by-case basis if they're fitting for rewards.

I've tried Envoy and it connects to my electrs server running on my Bitcoin node over Tor without issues.

Do you know what is oldest Android version needed to run Envoy.
I tried on one older phone and I couldn't install it, and I even tried directly with .apk file, forced install but I could not open the app.

The minimum version is Android 10 for Envoy. Pro tip, you can check in the Play Store under "About" and it will list the "Required OS" versions!

[Pmalek]

Do you know what is oldest Android version needed to run Envoy.
I tried on one older phone and I couldn't install it, and I even tried directly with .apk file, forced install but I could not open the app.

I don't think you will have success running it on an outdated Android OS. It requires Android 10 and newer according to the information available on the About page on the Play Store. You can check it here. Click on the arrow next to About this app and it will display the needed information.

Edit: Oops, seems like foundationdvcs was about 2 mins faster.

[foundationdvcs]

Do you know what is oldest Android version needed to run Envoy.
I tried on one older phone and I couldn't install it, and I even tried directly with .apk file, forced install but I could not open the app.

I don't think you will have success running it on an outdated Android OS. It requires Android 10 and newer according to the information available on the About page on the Play Store. You can check it here. Click on the arrow next to About this app and it will display the needed information.

Edit: Oops, seems like foundationdvcs was about 2 mins faster.

Great minds think alike 

[dkbit98]

I don't think 3D printing works with electronic components. Except for maybe the case as dkbit98 hinted.

It's not that hard to make your of PCB's, I saw many tutorials posted online, but it can be tricky if you are doing it for the first time.

Where's that?

I was thinking this could be possible in theory  

I'm not sure, but according to their docs, Flutter apps should run on Android versions that support the API version 21 to 34

Hmmm that's strange, it should work.
I even tried it one Android emulator with newer Android version but I couldn't start Envoy app.
Most of the other apps I checked before in my testing worked just with this emulator.

The minimum version is Android 10 for Envoy. Pro tip, you can check in the Play Store under "About" and it will list the "Required OS" versions!

How about pro tip for people who are using de-g00gled phones

[JayJuanGee]

The minimum version is Android 10 for Envoy. Pro tip, you can check in the Play Store under "About" and it will list the "Required OS" versions!

How about pro tip for people who are using de-g00gled phones

I know.. I know.. I know.. I am not exactly on topic, but I feel that I must say that it seems to me that you dkbit98 are more correct in the "proper" usage of the term "pro tip."

Usually a person would not necessarily want say "pro tip" for something that is actually serious.. because it does not tend to come off well, unless such person is wanting to be a bit facetious, ironic or even purposefully funny (or maybe even patronizingly funny to emphasize a point).. even though surely from a technical angle (which is admittedly scary for me to even think about my own personally attempting to de-googlizing all of my thing-a-lies), you are asking a question that you would like answered.. which is a kind of bonus.

[foundationdvcs]

The minimum version is Android 10 for Envoy. Pro tip, you can check in the Play Store under "About" and it will list the "Required OS" versions!

How about pro tip for people who are using de-g00gled phones

I'll bring it up with the team, would be good to have minimum requirements listed on the Github/alongside releases if it changes!

The minimum version is Android 10 for Envoy. Pro tip, you can check in the Play Store under "About" and it will list the "Required OS" versions!

How about pro tip for people who are using de-g00gled phones

I know.. I know.. I know.. I am not exactly on topic, but I feel that I must say that it seems to me that you dkbit98 are more correct in the "proper" usage of the term "pro tip."

Usually a person would not necessarily want say "pro tip" for something that is actually serious.. because it does not tend to come off well, unless such person is wanting to be a bit facetious, ironic or even purposefully funny (or maybe even patronizingly funny to emphasize a point).. even though surely from a technical angle (which is admittedly scary for me to even think about my own personally attempting to de-googlizing all of my thing-a-lies), you are asking a question that you would like answered.. which is a kind of bonus.

Apologies if my initial comment came off negatively, I simply meant it to be helpful and didn't realize the connotations it could carry! The Play Store doesn't make it immediately apparent how to check the minimum Android version of apps.

[satscraper]

I have already entertained thoughts of  DIY Passport. After studying their docs I have understood that the most challenging for me part of  such DIY project would be  the making of multilayer printed circuit board rather than 3d printing. For me, it would be hard, even impossible, to make at home.

You should be able to just upload the Gerber files to a PCB manufacturer like PCBWay and get them to assemble the board for you, as well. Then print the housing, add keypad, camera and screen and put it all together.

I do think it's worth it to just buy the completed product from Foundation though.

It would cost, in my estimation more then half of the current price for Passport 2.Thus, after pondering on pros and cons ( time, money and nerves spent to do something wrong) for DIY Passport project I have took the red pill and bought the off-the-peg product.

My only regret is that I have bought it right two weeks before they reduced the price.

[Nellyj200x]

I wrote a small program that allows you to quickly check if a Bitcoin file has a transaction in it, and also checks whether it is a valid Bitcoin file and whether it is locked.
https://github.com/Humble2020/BitcoinFile-Verifier

[foundationdvcs]

I have already entertained thoughts of  DIY Passport. After studying their docs I have understood that the most challenging for me part of  such DIY project would be  the making of multilayer printed circuit board rather than 3d printing. For me, it would be hard, even impossible, to make at home.

You should be able to just upload the Gerber files to a PCB manufacturer like PCBWay and get them to assemble the board for you, as well. Then print the housing, add keypad, camera and screen and put it all together.

I do think it's worth it to just buy the completed product from Foundation though.

It would cost, in my estimation more then half of the current price for Passport 2.Thus, after pondering on pros and cons ( time, money and nerves spent to do something wrong) for DIY Passport project I have took the red pill and bought the off-the-peg product.

My only regret is that I have bought it right two weeks before they reduced the price.

Please be sure to submit this form if you bought it just before the price decrease, we understand that it could have been frustrating and we've shared this broadly as a part of the price reduction:

https://foundationdevices.com/price-reduction/

That is good for any purchase in the 90d leading up to the price reduction.

[satscraper]

I have already entertained thoughts of  DIY Passport. After studying their docs I have understood that the most challenging for me part of  such DIY project would be  the making of multilayer printed circuit board rather than 3d printing. For me, it would be hard, even impossible, to make at home.

You should be able to just upload the Gerber files to a PCB manufacturer like PCBWay and get them to assemble the board for you, as well. Then print the housing, add keypad, camera and screen and put it all together.

I do think it's worth it to just buy the completed product from Foundation though.

It would cost, in my estimation more then half of the current price for Passport 2.Thus, after pondering on pros and cons ( time, money and nerves spent to do something wrong) for DIY Passport project I have took the red pill and bought the off-the-peg product.

My only regret is that I have bought it right two weeks before they reduced the price.

Please be sure to submit this form if you bought it just before the price decrease, we understand that it could have been frustrating and we've shared this broadly as a part of the price reduction:

https://foundationdevices.com/price-reduction/

That is good for any purchase in the 90d leading up to the price reduction.

It appears to be  not applicable to my case as I have bought Passport 2 from distributor  in a semi anonymous way during my business trip within EU. $50 is not a money which would force me to fill the form that requires some purchasing data (though restricted ones). Anyway, thanks for your generosity and  nice hardware wallet. I'm fully satisfied with my Passport 2.

[joniboini]

Is there any plan to add more resellers, especially in the Asia region? I'm trying to buy your product but the shipping cost from your store or the closest reseller might be a bit problematic. Or do people need to apply before you add them to your reseller lists?

[foundationdvcs]

Is there any plan to add more resellers, especially in the Asia region? I'm trying to buy your product but the shipping cost from your store or the closest reseller might be a bit problematic. Or do people need to apply before you add them to your reseller lists?

We absolutely do have plans to grow our reseller network, and are in talks with multiple new resellers in other regions ATM. We do require applications before we add resellers so we can do some basic vetting to ensure that people are getting legitimate devices etc.

If you know of anyone interested in becoming a reseller in Asia or a store you'd simply like to see carry Passport, please don't hesitate to point them to hello@foundationdevices.com and we can take it from there!

[foundationdvcs]

Morning, all 

Just wanted to share a fantasticly thorough and well-written review of Passport that just dropped from a Bitcoin educational site called Athena Alpha:

https://www.athena-alpha.com/foundation-passport-review/

[satscraper]

Morning, all  

Just wanted to share a fantasticly thorough and well-written review of Passport that just dropped from a Bitcoin educational site called Athena Alpha:

https://www.athena-alpha.com/foundation-passport-review/

Clearly fact-based review. My personal opinion, its  cons section is for the thing born. If there are pros then you bound to include  cons. But for me their cons are flimsy especially when they refer to the  text readability on the screen. Also the price point is arguable as there are wallets with the price which almost twice as much as the current price of Passport2.

[foundationdvcs]

Morning, all  

Just wanted to share a fantasticly thorough and well-written review of Passport that just dropped from a Bitcoin educational site called Athena Alpha:

https://www.athena-alpha.com/foundation-passport-review/

Clearly fact-based review. My personal opinion, its  cons section is for the thing born. If there are pros then you bound to include  cons. But for me their cons are flimsy especially when they refer to the  text readability on the screen. Also the price point is arguable as there are wallets with the price which almost twice as much as the current price of Passport2.

Agreed, we were surprised because this is the first complaint we've ever received over text sizes on-screen! But to each their own, Athena Alpha were very responsive and updated their post with a few minor nits we picked after reading it initially and have been fantastic to work with throughout.

[dkbit98]

Just wanted to share a fantasticly thorough and well-written review of Passport that just dropped from a Bitcoin educational site called Athena Alpha:

Well written review, but not as good as review made by n0nce in bitcointalk forum a while ago
I like what athena-alpha is doing with their rating system and comparisons for wallets and exchanges, but it can be a bit bias sometimes.


 

[satscraper]

@foundationdvcs, could I suggest a small feature to device's GUI. In the upper right corner of the screen there is a small battery icon. Is it possible to add into GUI without much pain the option to show battery percentage near that icon? Device uses lithium-ion battery and to prolong its life time it is very important to start charging procedure when it reaches  certain depth of discharge. Knowing of exact battery capacity left would be highly mattered in this case.

[foundationdvcs]

@foundationdvcs, could I suggest a small feature to device's GUI. In the upper right corner of the screen there is a small battery icon. Is it possible to add into GUI without much pain the option to show battery percentage near that icon? Device uses lithium-ion battery and to prolong its life time it is very important to start charging procedure when it reaches  certain depth of discharge. Knowing of exact battery capacity left would be highly mattered in this case.

I'll bring this to the team, but my gut tells me it would be quite hard to fit a legible percentage in the corner there!

Will see what we can come up with, I'd love the same personally 

[foundationdvcs]

Check your email inbox for a quick survey and win up to 1.5M sats 👀

An email is going out to all of those subscribed to our email list to take a brief survey, but if you purchased Passport and chose not to provide an email (for instance at a conference) please shoot us a message or reply here and we can validate your purchase and share the link directly.

As we take a privacy-preserving approach to everything we do, your feedback around Passport and Envoy enable us to incorporate feedback that we choose not to gather through invasive analytics or tracking!

Thank you again for helping us continue to fulfill our vision of technology that empowers you, the user, and we can’t wait to show you what we’re working on next in the coming months.

Onward.

[Athena Alpha]

Morning, all  

Just wanted to share a fantasticly thorough and well-written review of Passport that just dropped from a Bitcoin educational site called Athena Alpha:

https://www.athena-alpha.com/foundation-passport-review/

Clearly fact-based review. My personal opinion, its  cons section is for the thing born. If there are pros then you bound to include  cons. But for me their cons are flimsy especially when they refer to the  text readability on the screen. Also the price point is arguable as there are wallets with the price which almost twice as much as the current price of Passport2.

Agreed, we were surprised because this is the first complaint we've ever received over text sizes on-screen! But to each their own, Athena Alpha were very responsive and updated their post with a few minor nits we picked after reading it initially and have been fantastic to work with throughout.

Thanks all for the praise

One of the main goals with our reviews / rating system is to ensure that it's highly focused on security and privacy for the users, not just raw features. The other very important aspect is to make it as transparent and fair as possible. Most review sites just pick random numbers / stars from no where and give zero reasons why something might be "more secure" than something else.

In contrast, our Rating Methodology gives full details as to how and why we rank and rate things the way we do. No other site that we know of does this. To go even further, we even allow anyone (manufacturer or users) to see the raw JSON data for every hardware wallet in our database so they can verify that we're not just making things up or have incorrect data. If you find a mistake, let us know and we'll happily fix it

Regarding text size, it's very common across most HWWs to have quite small text. It's by no means impossible to read, but most are small. A huge percentage of the population (especially 30+ people) have vision issues, wear glasses or just can't see "perfectly", so smaller text isn't great. When it comes to HWWs though their main use is to confirm that the address on your computer screen matches what's on the HWWs screen. Having small text while comparing a huge string of random letters and numbers is NOT fun and even with 20/20 vision will lead to more mistakes which can likely mean lost funds.

We know some prefer the text to be small, as it's more secure, but for devices like the Passport that have quite big screens we were hopeful that it would also mean big text too. We're hopeful that wallet manufacturers at the very least start to allow users to increase text size dynamically in the future, or make bigger screens.

Just wanted to share a fantasticly thorough and well-written review of Passport that just dropped from a Bitcoin educational site called Athena Alpha:

Well written review, but not as good as review made by n0nce in bitcointalk forum a while ago
I like what athena-alpha is doing with their rating system and comparisons for wallets and exchanges, but it can be a bit bias sometimes.

Thank you as well! We try as much as possible to ensure it's focused on what users need such as security, privacy and features that will help their device last for a long time and support them as they grow such as ease of use, Multisig, USB-C, microSD backups etc but we obviously can't include everything (although our database is extensive!) so we do have to pick and choose things. Please let us know if there's anything major and we can certainly take it under consideration

[dkbit98]

An email is going out to all of those subscribed to our email list to take a brief survey, but if you purchased Passport and chose not to provide an email (for instance at a conference) please shoot us a message or reply here and we can validate your purchase and share the link directly.

Is this survey with rewards available even for people who didn't purchase Passport wallet directly from you?
I found Passport locally from reseller, and I never subscribed for newsletter... well maybe I will sign up soon with temp email 

Thank you as well! We try as much as possible to ensure it's focused on what users need such as security, privacy and features that will help their device last for a long time and support them as they grow such as ease of use, Multisig, USB-C, microSD backups etc but we obviously can't include everything (although our database is extensive!) so we do have to pick and choose things. Please let us know if there's anything major and we can certainly take it under consideration

My suggestion is that you try to be more active in bitcointalk forum, maybe create dedicated topic for your website.

[Pmalek]

Is this survey with rewards available even for people who didn't purchase Passport wallet directly from you?

It probably doesn't matter how you got it as long as you own the hardware device. If you can't show a receipt, purchase order number, shipping ID, or other proof, I am sure they will accept a picture of some sort that you have it or just take you for your word based on your forum trust. 

[foundationdvcs]

An email is going out to all of those subscribed to our email list to take a brief survey, but if you purchased Passport and chose not to provide an email (for instance at a conference) please shoot us a message or reply here and we can validate your purchase and share the link directly.

Is this survey with rewards available even for people who didn't purchase Passport wallet directly from you?
I found Passport locally from reseller, and I never subscribed for newsletter... well maybe I will sign up soon with temp email 

Absolutely! Please just send us a message and we'll set you up with the link 

[Pmalek]

I can confirm that I have received this Foundation Survey to my email associated with Foundation and/or its newsletter but I never purchased anything from your company. I understand that it might be time consuming to apply manual filters and only send the survey to actual hardware wallet users. I haven't clicked on the link to see the content, but can even those who don't own the device participate and possibly win or won't they be able to finish it without proof they own one?

[satscraper]

Following this thread I have checked how Passport2  responds to SIGHASH_NONE  transaction and got the positive  result  in the sense the device has refused to sign it. (In my understanding,  If Passport signed this transaction,   the outputs could have been  spent to any address without changing the signature. )

Anyway, just of my curiosity. Is there menu's opt that makes possible for device to sign transactions with  SIGHASH flags other than SIGHASH_ALL?

[pooya87]

Anyway, just of my curiosity. Is there menu's opt that makes possible for device to sign transactions with  SIGHASH flags other than SIGHASH_ALL?

If you are importing a PSBT file for signing, the code rejects any sighash types that is not SIGHASH_ALL and there is no option to override that as far as I can tell from the source code:
https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport2/blob/3d570fba50b40d65a04087127138426c2570e5a0/ports/stm32/boards/Passport/modules/psbt.py#L512-L514

[satscraper]

Anyway, just of my curiosity. Is there menu's opt that makes possible for device to sign transactions with  SIGHASH flags other than SIGHASH_ALL?

If you are importing a PSBT file for signing, the code rejects any sighash types that is not SIGHASH_ALL and there is no option to override that as far as I can tell from the source code:
https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport2/blob/3d570fba50b40d65a04087127138426c2570e5a0/ports/stm32/boards/Passport/modules/psbt.py#L512-L514

Thanks, I know this. However I was asking about the presence of the "hidden"  opt in the wallet settings (I have perused all available menu's opts , but didn't find it )that would allow to override that default response and sign transaction with any SIGHASH flag.  In fact,  I doubt whether I would ever need the other response, thus, that was just a thought-provoking  question (to officials, which still holds on).

[pooya87]

Thanks, I know this. However I was asking about the presence of the "hidden"  opt in the wallet settings (I have perused all available menu's opts , but didn't find it )that would allow to override that default response and sign transaction with any SIGHASH flag.  In fact,  I doubt whether I would ever need the other response, thus, that was just a thought-provoking  question (to officials, which still holds on).

Although I haven't gone through the whole code but from what I've checked I don't think they have ever implemented that part of the code responsible for computing the sig-hash (digest) for other sighash flags. You can see that elsewhere too. For example in the below link you can see the method that is computing sig-hash for SegWit outputs according to BIP-143, it is clear that this is not a full implementation of the BIP as it skips other sighash types and only supports SIGHASH_ALL (no _NONE no _SINGLE and no _ANYONECANPAY).

https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport2/blob/3d570fba50b40d65a04087127138426c2570e5a0/ports/stm32/boards/Passport/modules/psbt.py#L1588

[JayJuanGee]

A few hours ago, I listened to Zach being interviewed on the Simply Bitcoin podcast that just came out today (Zach participates in most of the podcast, yet their discussion of Passport and/or hardware (self-custody) user-friendliness ideas is mostly in the second half of it).

They were largely talking about user-friendliness, and even talking about how many users are likely intimidated from various kinds of user-friendliness aspects of various kinds of wallets.

They may have also mentioned that sometimes there is a certain reluctancy that individuals have in terms of changing from their current practices into different practices, or maybe not even recognizing and/or appreciating various vulnerabilities that might exist in their own ways of custodying their coins.

At one point zach mentioned the physicality of the SD card, so that the back up code could be secured in places that might not be 100% secure because the code has to be matched up with the SD card, and so I probably still would prefer to camloflage the code and even to divide it up, but then I also started to consider whether there might need to be 2-3 SD cards, and how such a process would work.

So my point is that I hate to merely rely on one back up, and I understand the potential complications of having back-ups stored in too many places and/or even complications (and confusion) that might come from that, and I am pretty sure that my current process is ideally having three back ups, even though sometimes when in the process of getting some new private key or password or other kind of private security information, I may well only have one or two back ups until that information gets put into a more systematic longer term system in which there are 3 back ups..

oh and by the way, I frequently will just suggest 2 back ups, so I might even be overly doing my own self.. while at the same time I get nervous when people tell me that they ONLY have 1 back up.. which is surely better than no back ups, which is also a pretty common practice for real world and non-technical normies. they frequently have no back ups at all and they look at you as if you were an alien if you are asking them about how they back up their information (whether value related information, such as bitcoin, or any other information for that matter).

[satscraper]

so that the back up code could be secured in places that might not be 100% secure because the code has to be matched up with the SD card,

Can not get this at all. Could you elaborate a bit more his frame of thought. In the current implementation the backup code (consisting of 20 digits) can be copied to any quantity of SD cards. Pegging code solely to the  specific card is not a wise approach, IMHO.


As to me, I prefer to backup SEED phrase rather then digital code.

[JayJuanGee]

so that the back up code could be secured in places that might not be 100% secure because the code has to be matched up with the SD card,

Can not get this at all. Could you elaborate a bit more his frame of thought. In the current implementation the backup code (consisting of 20 digits) can be copied to any quantity of SD cards. Pegging code solely to the  specific card is not a wise approach, IMHO.

As to me, I prefer to backup SEED phrase rather then digital code.

I might have had been confused about what I had heard Zach say on the podcast, and since i don't currently have a Passport device, my ideas of how it works are not as much experiential - and I had not really understood very well how the SD card back-up works.   

Nonetheless your suggestion of not pegging the code to any specific SD card seems helpful, but then that could be problematic if the code would be totally open.   I was presuming that there might be a way to have a back up code and then perhaps to have it pegged to 3 SD cards that use the same code, so it is like having 2 back ups of the SD card in case the primary SD card gets lost, stolen or broken.   

[satscraper]

so that the back up code could be secured in places that might not be 100% secure because the code has to be matched up with the SD card,

Can not get this at all. Could you elaborate a bit more his frame of thought. In the current implementation the backup code (consisting of 20 digits) can be copied to any quantity of SD cards. Pegging code solely to the  specific card is not a wise approach, IMHO.

As to me, I prefer to backup SEED phrase rather then digital code.

I might have had been confused about what I had heard Zach say on the podcast, and since i don't currently have a Passport device, my ideas of how it works are not as much experiential - and I had not really understood very well how the SD card back-up works.  

Nonetheless your suggestion of not pegging the code to any specific SD card seems helpful, but then that could be problematic if the code would be totally open.   I was presuming that there might be a way to have a back up code and then perhaps to have it pegged to 3 SD cards that use the same code, so it is like having 2 back ups of the SD card in case the primary SD card gets lost, stolen or broken.  

Well, probably by card he meant a paper one rather than SD card. 20-digits-long code is used to encrypt zip file which holds SEED and Passport's settings. They advise to write down that code on the  paper card that accompanies Passport.

Probably now they are thinking of splitting somehow that code into a few parts to hold them on different paper cards.

[PrivacyG]

I fell in love so much with this Passport thing.

Is there any plan for official Monero support?  Passport would be the PERFECT Hardware Wallet for a combination of these two Currencies and I am pretty convinced that most of your customers are or end up being Monero users too.  Like, how many Bitcoin users are paranoid enough to move further from preaching to ACTUALLY using Airgapped Hardware Wallets?  For the most part only some paranoid weird people like me would!

Anyway.  The last version of Passport looks amazing.  You have done a beautiful job at designing the Hardware Wallet AND creating the perfect Wallet for the paranoid.

-----

Edit.  Do you have a plan for an uglier but more affordable version of this?  Maybe a chunky plastic Wallet that is focused on affordability while offering the exact same more important components such as quality buttons, quality screen et cetera?

[dkbit98]

I didn't saw this posted here, but looks like guys from Passport Foundation are a bit scared about recent changes in US, so they are dropping plans for Whirlpool support in their Envoy app.
Only way to use Whirlpool is going to be with Sparrow and Samurai wallet, or by forking their open source Envoy app.
New version of Envoy app was released few days ago:
https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/envoy/releases

[foundationdvcs]

We're thrilled to get Passport v2.2.0 in your hands today 🎊

With this latest version, you can:

📷  Seamlessly switch back and forth between signing via QR and microSD
🌱  Restore from SeedQR

We've also improved the user interface on Founder’s Edition and added many quality of life improvements across the board. With the number of new features we included in 2.1.0, we took this release to focus on refining our unified firmware between Founder’s Edition and Batch 2, as well as paving the way for full Taproot support in 2.3.0.

Update today directly from Envoy, our mobile app in just a few taps, and read the full changelog in our release notes blog post below:

https://foundationdevices.com/2024/01/passport-version-2-2-0-is-now-live/

If this is your first time updating Passport or you'd like a refresher, we have docs and videos that walk you through every step of the process:

https://docs.foundationdevices.com/firmware-update

[satscraper]

📷  Seamlessly switch back and forth between signing via QR and microSD

I should say that this is the most noticeable feature  which empowers  device to handle large transaction effectively. I have encountered in the real practice the difficulty to sign via QR the big transactions which made itself evident in the fact that the time required to complete the signing process was unbearably long (up to 10 minutes). Now, having the preliminary warning on the large transaction and opt to switch  on-the-fly from QR  to SD card  simplifies the signing process. Tested this myself with  2.2.0 beta a few days ago.

[foundationdvcs]

📷  Seamlessly switch back and forth between signing via QR and microSD

I should say that this is the most noticeable feature  which empowers  device to handle large transaction effectively. I have encountered in the real practice the difficulty to sign via QR the big transactions which made itself evident in the fact that the time required to complete the signing process was unbearably long (up to 10 minutes). Now, having the preliminary warning on the large transaction and opt to switch  on-the-fly from QR  to SD card  simplifies the signing process. Tested this myself with  2.2.0 beta a few days ago.

Love to hear that! We've done a lot of work to increase the size of transaction you can reasonably use QR codes for, but there is still a practical limit where it just makes more sense to use microSD, so I'm glad to hear this is already being an effective UX improvement.

Even more QR improvements and transaction signing speed-ups coming in 2.3.0 as well as we've rewritten the transaction parsing from scratch to go along with Taproot.

[dkbit98]

Update today directly from Envoy, our mobile app in just a few taps, and read the full changelog in our release notes blog post below

Is there a way for Envoy app to have support for other aigrapped hardware wallets, other than Passport?
Or maybe you have the tools available for other developers to help and work on that, since everything is open source code.

[foundationdvcs]

Update today directly from Envoy, our mobile app in just a few taps, and read the full changelog in our release notes blog post below

Is there a way for Envoy app to have support for other aigrapped hardware wallets, other than Passport?
Or maybe you have the tools available for other developers to help and work on that, since everything is open source code.

We plan on focusing only on Passport (and future devices) in Envoy as that allows the tightest UX pairing possible, and there are other fantastic multi-hardware wallet solutions out there like Sparrow Wallet.

As you mentioned, Envoy is 100% open source so anyone could fork it and make it work with other air-gapped hardware wallets, with those supporting the same UR/animated QR standards being the easiest to implement.

[satscraper]

Update today directly from Envoy, our mobile app in just a few taps, and read the full changelog in our release notes blog post below

Is there a way for Envoy app to have support for other aigrapped hardware wallets, other than Passport?
Or maybe you have the tools available for other developers to help and work on that, since everything is open source code.

We plan on focusing only on Passport (and future devices) in Envoy as that allows the tightest UX pairing possible, and there are other fantastic multi-hardware wallet solutions out there like Sparrow Wallet.

Wise commitment.

I think that granting to other HW the ability to be paired  with Envoy  would require incorporation of the  third-party connectivity libraries  into app's code. Those libraries may have the flaws and thus, be vulnerable to malware or hacking attempts . Consequently , the security of HW + Envoy tandem would be  liquefied.

[n0nce]

I think that granting to other HW the ability to be paired  with Envoy  would require incorporation of the  third-party connectivity libraries  into app's code. Those libraries may have the flaws and thus, be vulnerable to malware or hacking attempts . Consequently , the security of HW + Envoy tandem would be  liquefied.

In my opinion, if other hardware wallet devs are able to add support for their device to Envoy without additional libraries or security concerns, Foundation could always merge it into their main branch.

But then you run into all these issues like a buggy implementation being blamed on Foundation. Would be totally understandable from a business perspective if Foundation Devices never merged third-party wallet support into the official version of their application.

[RickDeckard]

@foundationdvcs : I just saw that in the latest Envoy release[1], Spanish is listed as a new language to select. Are you planning on adding other languages during 2024?
[1]https://foundationdevices.com/2024/01/envoy-version-1-5-1-is-now-live/

[satscraper]

Yesterday, I sent  a transaction with 30 inputs and three outputs (excluding that  one relevant to commission).

I chose to sign it via QR code. After analyzing this code, Passport 2 (v2.2.0) warned that this transaction was large and suggested to continue the signing by using the PSBT file.

But I decided to continue the signing  via QR code.

Passport 2 did the job well. It took less than a minute to scan the dynamic code generated by Sparrow and then sign the transaction.

[RickDeckard]

The (soonish) Passport version 2.3.0 release sure brings up a set of interesting features per BitcoinQ_A (Head of Customer Service[1]) recent tweet[2]:

Passport 2.3.0 QA time. Some cool stuff coming in this one!

Taproot receives 📥
Address explorer 🧭
12 word seed generation option 🌱
Final word checksum calculation 🧮
New address formatting ℹ️

Considering that the release is now on QA, I suppose Passport users will end February with a new set of cool features?  
[1]https://foundationdevices.com/about/
[2]https://n.opnxng.com/BitcoinQ_A/status/1755507422771228854

[satscraper]

@foundationdvcs, as it was stated  the v.2.2.0 release has brought the option of importing "a SeedQR directly into Passport when restoring from seed.".

However, when passing through my Passport 2 (v 2.2.0) menu I failed to find the opt to create such SeedQR.

Does it mean there is a  need for  some 3^rdparty soft to create that  SeedQR from my SEED?

[RickDeckard]

@foundationdvcs, as it was stated  the v.2.2.0 release has brought the option of importing "a SeedQR directly into Passport when restoring from seed.".

However, when passing through my Passport 2 (v 2.2.0) menu I failed to find the opt to create such SeedQR.

Does it mean there is a  need for  some 3^rdparty soft to create that  SeedQR from my SEED?

I may have understood in a wrong way your question, but are you asking if Foundation is able to create a SeedQR directly on the device (from your seed words)? If so, that is not the case I believe. When they said in the v.2.20 that you can now "directly import a SeedQR" they were referring to the fact that you are able to scan an existing QR code (based on the SeedQR format specification). This assumes that you need a QR code first. You can see it better explained in their guide[1]:

Restoring From an Existing Seed

To restore from an existing seed, click Restore From Seed. You'll then have the option to restore via:

    12 words
    24 words
    Compact SeedQR
    SeedQR

To restore via either the Compact or SeedQR options, simply scan your existing QR backup when prompted and confirm the seed words displayed on the following page.

When restoring via seed word input, Passport uses predictive text entry to make this process as fast as possible.

For instance, to enter car, simply type 2-2-7. Passport will display all words associated with that key combination.

Video tutorial for restoring via seed words.

If you are interested in creating one, I have found an open sourced repository that provides the ability to generate a compact SeedQR[2] but as I never used it I can't vouch for it. Or, considering that the method of creating a SeedQR is openly described[3] you can try to create one by yourself and only rely on an open source tool to generate QR codes (in offline mode) such as this[4].
[1]https://docs.foundationdevices.com/en/passport/setup
[2]https://github.com/renkasiyas/seedQR-generator
[3]https://github.com/SeedSigner/seedsigner/blob/dev/docs/seed_qr/README.md
[4]https://github.com/nayuki/QR-Code-generator

[satscraper]

~

Yeah, I was thinking about the creation of SeedQR directly from device, something like it was implemented in Blockstream Jade.

I would rather  trust  SeedQR module on device  than those generators found on github. Anyway, thanks for your efforts and clarification.

I would appreciate the  implementation of SeedQR generator by the  future releases.

[RickDeckard]

I would appreciate the  implementation of SeedQR generator by the  future releases.

After some research I have found that if you enable the Key Manager extension in the Foundation devices you are able to generate (and export) in SeedQR and Compact SeedQR BIP 85 child seeds. A glimpse of it can be seen here[1]:

Once you have enabled Key Manager, creating a new key is incredibly straight forward. Simply navigate to the new Key Manager card on your home screen and select “New Key.” Choose how many words you want the seed to be and the new key is automatically saved via encrypted microSD backups. When you need to use the new child seed in another wallet, simply select “Export,” choose whichever format your favorite wallet supports, and import it. It’s that easy.

Since this functionality already exists for child seeds I believe that it wouldn't be hard to implement the same system during the process of generating a new master seed.
[1]https://foundationdevices.com/2023/05/all-your-wallets-one-backup/

[satscraper]

I would appreciate the  implementation of SeedQR generator by the  future releases.

After some research I have found that if you enable the Key Manager extension in the Foundation devices you are able to generate (and export) in SeedQR and Compact SeedQR BIP 85 child seeds. A glimpse of it can be seen here[1]:

Once you have enabled Key Manager, creating a new key is incredibly straight forward. Simply navigate to the new Key Manager card on your home screen and select “New Key.” Choose how many words you want the seed to be and the new key is automatically saved via encrypted microSD backups. When you need to use the new child seed in another wallet, simply select “Export,” choose whichever format your favorite wallet supports, and import it. It’s that easy.

Since this functionality already exists for child seeds I believe that it wouldn't be hard to implement the same system during the process of generating a new master seed.
[1]https://foundationdevices.com/2023/05/all-your-wallets-one-backup/

Yeah, I knew about possibility to export  the BIP85 child seeds (one by one) via SeedQR when Key Manager is enabled . The official video ( which shows  how to do this)  exists for a long time. But unfortunately Key Manager doesn't offer the option to export master SEED via  SeedQR and I don't understand why. In my view adding this option  could cover what I want. They could add it even without requiring to create child seeds.

[RickDeckard]

Yeah, I knew about possibility to export  the BIP85 child seeds (one by one) via SeedQR when Key Manager is enabled . The official video ( which shows  how to do this)  exists for a long time. But unfortunately Key Manager doesn't offer the option to export master SEED via  SeedQR and I don't understand why. In my view adding this option  could cover what I want. They could add it even without requiring to create child seeds.

Same feeling here. While the official account is mostly active here from time to time, their Telegram channel is way more active and they always have staff there that interact with many suggestions and ideas. Perhaps you could stop by there and share that idea to gather feedback?

[satscraper]

Ha ha, my request on adding the master seed SeedQR-export into future release didn't    leave Foundation  hanging. The coming v.2.3.0 will implement it  as it is evidenced by beta variant  already dangling on the official github. Among other noticeable features is long expected (at least by me) " native OP_RETURN message viewing and signing". What a release!

[zherbert]

Ha ha, my request on adding the master seed SeedQR-export into future release didn't    leave Foundation  hanging. The coming v.2.3.0 will implement it  as it is evidenced by beta variant  already dangling on the official github. Among other noticeable features is long expected (at least by me) " native OP_RETURN message viewing and signing". What a release!

We read everything posted here and take any feature requests into consideration. We appreciate your input! This next release is pretty massive.

[dkbit98]

Ha ha, my request on adding the master seed SeedQR-export into future release didn't    leave Foundation  hanging. The coming v.2.3.0 will implement it  as it is evidenced by beta variant  already dangling on the official github. Among other noticeable features is long expected (at least by me) " native OP_RETURN message viewing and signing". What a release!

Very nice mister Contributor 

We read everything posted here and take any feature requests into consideration. We appreciate your input! This next release is pretty massive.

Can we expect anything special coming from Foundations around Bitcoin Halving date?

I know few other hardware wallet manufacturers are working on releasing special bitcoin only editions, and maybe there will be some discounts available.

[zherbert]

We read everything posted here and take any feature requests into consideration. We appreciate your input! This next release is pretty massive.

Can we expect anything special coming from Foundations around Bitcoin Halving date?

I know few other hardware wallet manufacturers are working on releasing special bitcoin only editions, and maybe there will be some discounts available.

We will be doing a cool halving collab with some other great companies in the space (stay tuned!) but we don't usually do any kind of discounts. I'll see if we can do something special, maybe some kind of bundle.

I am very excited that in the next few weeks we will bring back our customer referral program, the Ambassador Program. Will give an opportunity to refer Passport and get exclusive swag alongside Bitcoin rewards!

[RickDeckard]

The moment that we have been waiting has arrived - Passport version 2.3.0 is LIVE[1][2] (paging @satscraper). I'll just highlight a couple of great additions:

• Full Taproot support in Passport;
• Address explorer;
• Support for verifying and displaying OP_Return;
• Creation of 12 word seed phrases (defaults to 12 word seed phrases during onboarding);
• Improved address display

The team over at Foundation keeps transmitting me a sense of responsibility and transparency within the hardware space that I find very appealing. Congratulations to everybody on the team once again.
[1]https://foundationdevices.com/2024/02/passport-version-2-3-0-is-now-live/
[2]https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport2/releases/tag/v2.3.0

[foundationdvcs]

The moment that we have been waiting has arrived - Passport version 2.3.0 is LIVE[1][2] (paging @satscraper). I'll just highlight a couple of great additions:

• Full Taproot support in Passport;
• Address explorer;
• Support for verifying and displaying OP_Return;
• Creation of 12 word seed phrases (defaults to 12 word seed phrases during onboarding);
• Improved address display

The team over at Foundation keeps transmitting me a sense of responsibility and transparency within the hardware space that I find very appealing. Congratulations to everybody on the team once again.
[1]https://foundationdevices.com/2024/02/passport-version-2-3-0-is-now-live/
[2]https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport2/releases/tag/v2.3.0

Thanks so much for sharing this, Rick! We're thrilled to release this, and as you can see from the blog post it's a massive release and likely our largest to date! If any of you have questions on the release, I'm happy to answer them, and will be sure to stay on top of this thread more moving forward  

Edit: I've updated the version OP, and here is the quick summary for those looking for the tl;dr on v2.3.0:

We’re beyond thrilled to be able to release Passport firmware v2.3.0, including full Taproot support, revamped passphrase behavior, an all-new address explorer, master seed SeedQR export, 12-word seed phrase support, 12th/24th word generation for advanced users, and native OP_RETURN message viewing and signing.

This release is one of our largest to date and includes a massive amount of new features, improvements, and bug fixes.

[satscraper]

I usually take my time with any upgrade but this bout I was itching to test v. 2.3.0

I did it today after downloading, verifying

and installing  the relevant .bin   file on my Passport 2.  I never  commented  on the  microSD card slot in Passport 2. This time I should highlight the fact of its  very well-weighed  design which prevents SD card from  being placed in a wrong way.

The upgrade from 2.2.0 to 2.3.0 has took less a minute and went smoothly.

Being upgraded,  I decided to examine how my SEED came across SeedQR: Advanced -->View Seed Words --> Click left button on  QR icon located in the  bottom  left corner on display --> choose either Compact SeedQR or SeedQR.

I should say Compact SeedQR,  as it name implies.   looks ..... more  compact.  (Now I should ponder a bit of the best way  to transfer it to the steel plate. The first stuff came to my head was the transparent film to be used as a mediator.  )

Then I proceeded to exploration of my addresses by Passport 2: Manage Account -->Explore Addresses --> Single sig (I have two types of addresses Single-sig and 2/2 multisig) -->Following screen offers four options: Segwit, Wrapped Segwit, Legacy and Taproot  --> Receive or Change--> Right button on "> " ---> Again 2 times by Right button on "> "  after some warning messages on the screen and
shazam, address is here. Now I may use the directional pad to navigate addresses: Up: -10, Down: +10, Left: -1, Right: +1.

Test of v. 2.3.0 on my Passport 2 to be continued.

[dkbit98]

We will be doing a cool halving collab with some other great companies in the space (stay tuned!) but we don't usually do any kind of discounts. I'll see if we can do something special, maybe some kind of bundle.

That would be cool.
I see number of Passport resellers in Europe is growing.

• Improved address display

Is this update actually better address formatting similar like Trezor did recently?

I should say Compact SeedQR,  as it name implies.   looks ..... more  compact.  (Now I should ponder a bit of the best way  to transfer it to the steel plate. The first stuff came to my head was the transparent film to be used as a mediator.  )

Easy way is to use paper template and just fill spots with black marker pen, but I also saw people started making interesting plastic backup plates with tamper protection.
They are obviously not as durable as stainless steel or titanium plates, but they are good option when traveling and going in airports scanners.
There are cons and pros for everything.

[RickDeckard]

Is this update actually better address formatting similar like Trezor did recently?

Indeed. But instead of just taking my word on it, take a look at the improved display yourself (plus get to see how the OP_Return displays as well):

Old[1]:


New[2]:


I like the detail where group of characters get bold automatically to be more easily identifiable by the user.
[1]Taken from Foundation Device YT video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_EntPUO4yY
[2]https://foundationdevices.com/2024/02/passport-version-2-3-0-is-now-live/

[satscraper]

Easy way is to use paper template and just fill spots with black marker pen, but I also saw people started making interesting plastic backup plates with tamper protection.
They are obviously not as durable as stainless steel or titanium plates, but they are good option when traveling and going in airports scanners.
There are cons and pros for everything.

Yeah, it fits my plot, only instead of a paper template I intend to use the-laser-printer-transparency-film with the  preliminary printed compact SeedQR-template like this

After mapping (by the fibre-tip pen with permanent ink ) this template with Compact SeedQR image relevant to my SEED,  I will place it on the steel plate and hummer the image points  with a punching  tip.

[foundationdvcs]

• Improved address display

Is this update actually better address formatting similar like Trezor did recently?

As RickDeckard showed off, it's a new way to break up the address and use bold formatting to make it easier to verify "block by block," if you will.

You can read more on the motivation and standard that was proposed by the Bitcoin Design community here:

https://bitcoin.design/guide/glossary/address/#visual-formatting

We've also deployed the new address display format in Envoy as of v1.6.0 (in beta!) so that verifying addresses visually between the two is even easier!

[RickDeckard]

@foundationdvcs : Following this[1] discussion, is there any possibility to implement the function that allows to magnify areas within the generated QR code so that it could be easily transferred to a metal plate (for example)? Or this is seen as something that is a "nice to have feature" and not "must have" at the moment considering the development plans?
[1]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5485622.msg63706761#msg63706761

[satscraper]

@foundationdvcs : Following this[1] discussion, is there any possibility to implement the function that allows to magnify areas within the generated QR code so that it could be easily transferred to a metal plate (for example)? Or this is seen as something that is a "nice to have feature" and not "must have" at the moment considering the development plans?
[1]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5485622.msg63706761#msg63706761

I would also vote for the adding to device the function which allowed  to check the copy of SeedQR transferred from Passport screen to some stuff, let's say to paper, transparency film, metal plate,  etc., to remain sure that created backup is not getting corrupted somehow as the time passes.

[foundationdvcs]

@foundationdvcs : Following this[1] discussion, is there any possibility to implement the function that allows to magnify areas within the generated QR code so that it could be easily transferred to a metal plate (for example)? Or this is seen as something that is a "nice to have feature" and not "must have" at the moment considering the development plans?
[1]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5485622.msg63706761#msg63706761

Fascinating idea! I'll raise an internal issue with the team to further discuss it, to my knowledge we haven't considered it yet but would be great for helping with steel QR backups as mentioned.

[satscraper]

@foundationdvcs : Following this[1] discussion, is there any possibility to implement the function that allows to magnify areas within the generated QR code so that it could be easily transferred to a metal plate (for example)? Or this is seen as something that is a "nice to have feature" and not "must have" at the moment considering the development plans?
[1]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5485622.msg63706761#msg63706761

Fascinating idea! I'll raise an internal issue with the team to further discuss it, to my knowledge we haven't considered it yet but would be great for helping with steel QR backups as mentioned.

Just came to my head after  reading this. Another option would be to safe  SeedQR to file (in some printable format ) on microSD card inserted into the slot of Passport device so that one could use it to print (using  the air-gapped machine) the image afterward. This printed image would be very useful at SeedQR backup on the steel plate.

[satscraper]

Noticed only today and I think it's worth to highlight now - they fulfilled my old-date request  

@foundationdvcs, could I suggest a small feature to device's GUI. In the upper right corner of the screen there is a small battery icon. Is it possible to add into GUI without much pain the option to show battery percentage near that icon? Device uses lithium-ion battery and to prolong its life time it is very important to start charging procedure when it reaches  certain depth of discharge. Knowing of exact battery capacity left would be highly mattered in this case.

and implemented it  even by  the better way: Device --> Battery --> shazam!

I'm not sure what  release (either 2.2.0 or 2.3.0) has brought such wonderful feature but it doesn't matter.  It's  over there, under  the menu of Passport device.

[foundationdvcs]

Noticed only today and I think it's worth to highlight now - they fulfilled my old-date request  

@foundationdvcs, could I suggest a small feature to device's GUI. In the upper right corner of the screen there is a small battery icon. Is it possible to add into GUI without much pain the option to show battery percentage near that icon? Device uses lithium-ion battery and to prolong its life time it is very important to start charging procedure when it reaches  certain depth of discharge. Knowing of exact battery capacity left would be highly mattered in this case.

and implemented it  even by  the better way: Device --> Battery --> shazam!

I'm not sure what  release (either 2.2.0 or 2.3.0) has brought such wonderful feature but it doesn't matter.  It's  over there, under  the menu of Passport device.

Was easy to miss in the laundry list of new features in 2.3.0 but was in there at the end, just for you

You can now check the exact percentage of battery Passport has in the settings under Device > Battery.

[satscraper]

just for you

You can now check the exact percentage of battery Passport has in the settings under Device > Battery.

Thanks for this. It is really a highly desired feature. With every passing  day I am more and more convinced in this thought that Passport wallet is is fraught with the infinite possibilities,  just as an atom.I can not  even  imagine  what challenges this wallet will take up next.

[RickDeckard]

(...) I can not  even  imagine  what challenges this wallet will take up next.

It seems that March may be a good month for us as in the latest blog post of February[1] you can find this information:

What we’re working on

March is just around the corner, and we’re getting ready to kick things off with a bang! We’ve been hard at work on something new for Foundation, and we’re also planning a fantastic community event on X to go alongside the launch. 🤫 We can’t wait for you to see. March is going to be HUGE for our community.

Are we talking about a new product on the horizon? I once hypnotized[1] about a product similar to Ronin Dojo since I believe it would make sense in creating a true open source ecosystem for Foundation, but I reckon that the investment into such product may be high and riskier considering Foundation Passport Batch 2 launched last year[2]. By the way, Passport Batch 2 announcement will celebrate 1 year on March 10th, what a ride it has been!
[1]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5441422.msg62590926#msg62590926
[2]https://foundationdevices.com/2022/03/introducing-passport-batch-2-envoy/

[foundationdvcs]

A huge new release of Envoy just dropped!

https://foundationdevices.com/2024/03/envoy-version-1-6-0-is-now-live/

tl;dr:

⏩ Full “replace-by-fee (RBF)” control is here!
✍️ Custom Passport Names
🖥️ Redesign of address and amount displays
🌐 Improved Tor support

Read all the details in the link above 

[satscraper]

A huge new release of Envoy just dropped!

Could I propose for the future releases a small feature , namely,  the revolving order for destination and change addresses in every following transaction build by Envoy?  Implementing this would mislead slightly  the chainanalysis  companies which use heuristics in their research, and,  thus,  would  add to users privacy.

[foundationdvcs]

A huge new release of Envoy just dropped!

Could I propose for the future releases a small feature , namely,  the revolving order for destination and change addresses in every following transaction build by Envoy?  Implementing this would mislead slightly  the chainanalysis  companies which use heuristics in their research, and,  thus,  would  add to users privacy.

Could you expand on what you mean here? We already rotate addresses every time you hit Receive and for every change output, even if the receive address isn't visibly used on-chain to better protect users. Is that what you're asking for, or something on top of that?

[satscraper]

A huge new release of Envoy just dropped!

Could I propose for the future releases a small feature , namely,  the revolving order for destination and change addresses in every following transaction build by Envoy?  Implementing this would mislead slightly  the chainanalysis  companies which use heuristics in their research, and,  thus,  would  add to users privacy.

Could you expand on what you mean here? We already rotate addresses every time you hit Receive and for every change output, even if the receive address isn't visibly used on-chain to better protect users. Is that what you're asking for, or something on top of that?

I mean the rotation of the sequence order of receive and change addresses. For instance in the  first transaction the receive address goes first  the change - second, in following trx  the change - first, the receive second, in the  following trx again   the receive address goes first  the change - second, then again vice versa, and so it repeats in a circle.

[foundationdvcs]

Big news for you all today -- say hello to our new home, https://foundation.xyz 🏠

Our website and domain have served us well, but we’ve long since outgrown the “Devices” moniker. To pave the way for a new wave of freedom tech from our team, we’re launching a new site today.

While we may have started as a purely hardware-focused company, we’ve grown and evolved into a freedom tech company that encompasses hardware, software and Bitcoin self-custody tools. We can’t wait to show you what we’ve planned in a HUGE 2024 that will even better reflect this!

With all of this, it’s time to shift from our old https://foundationdevices.com domain to a new, improved, and more accessible https://foundation.xyz. Our website now properly reflects our design-first approach and our simple, intuitive user experiences that grow with you.

A huge part of the new experience is letting you have your voice be heard, as we now feature real user feedback on every product page. Ever wondered what other Envoy or Passport users think of the experience? Wonder no longer:

https://foundation.xyz/passport/

Another core part of our effort has always been going above and beyond when it comes to customer support, but we never had a proper support page. All that has changed, with an entire page dedicated to contacting our support, reading FAQs, and much more.

https://foundation.xyz/support/

Speaking of customer support — now our Concierge white-glove service has a new home, giving you everything you need to know about it. Going from zero to self-custody has never been easier than with Passport + Concierge.

https://foundation.xyz/concierge/

We also have a deep passion for user education here at Foundation and wanted to better reflect that in our blog. We’ve drastically improved our blog, with better readability, better formatting, and easier navigation.

Take a peek 👇

https://foundation.xyz/blog/

Want to deep-dive into the specifics of our devices security model? Or simply learn more about the deep ethos of personal privacy that goes into how we design all of our products? Now you can do that at a glance on our new Security page.

https://foundation.xyz/security/

We can’t wait to hear your feedback on our new site! We have a HUGE week of giveaways, games, and celebrations planned for this week, so be sure to follow us on X or Nostr to be sure you don’t miss out 👀

[SFR10]

We can’t wait to hear your feedback on our new site!

I love its minimalistic approach and the dark mode feature is the icing on the cake

We have a HUGE week of giveaways, games, and celebrations planned for this week,

IMO, these kind of games deserve having a dedicated thread: 1 MILLION SATS hunt
_{- I think I've found three of them so far (please don't make them harder)}
BTW, I'm curious if anyone from the Philippines has tried applying to become an official reseller...

[dkbit98]

Big news for you all today -- say hello to our new home, https://foundation.xyz 🏠

Why choosing obscure .xyz domain?
I think having separate Passport HW domain or subdomain would be a good idea.
 
One question for you guys:
Are you working on adding support for using multiple seed phrases in the same time on one device?
More hardware wallets are supporting this, and I think it's a good idea to add it.


I had to post this here to show how ''serious'' keystone developers really are.  
Few months ago they posted fake open source license for keystone firmware, and they excluded Foundation Devices and Zach Herbet!
This was not open source, but they fixed it and remove that crap later.

WITH THE EXPLICIT EXCLUSION OF FOUNDATION DEVICES AND ZACH HERBERT, WHO ARE STRICTLY PROHIBITED

https://github.com/KeystoneHQ/keystone3-firmware/blob/d9e7f20985140e38e4cf2c9f841f8e576d90e98f/COPYING-KEYSTONE#L19

[satscraper]

[
Why choosing obscure .xyz domain?

Probably because their thought was something about  the drawing  of all Generations  to the color of Foundation :

I think Passport devices suite  both the youngsters and elders due to their clever UI/UX design and functionality.

[foundationdvcs]

We can’t wait to hear your feedback on our new site!

I love its minimalistic approach and the dark mode feature is the icing on the cake

We have a HUGE week of giveaways, games, and celebrations planned for this week,

IMO, these kind of games deserve having a dedicated thread: 1 MILLION SATS hunt
_{- I think I've found three of them so far (please don't make them harder)}
BTW, I'm curious if anyone from the Philippines has tried applying to become an official reseller...

1. Dark mode was a huge focus, most of the team are dark mode maxis 
2. Hmm, will have to do that for the next one! Great idea to bring that sort of thing to Bitcoin Talk as well.
3. Not that I know of, but would love to break into that market!

Big news for you all today -- say hello to our new home, https://foundation.xyz 🏠

Why choosing obscure .xyz domain?
I think having separate Passport HW domain or subdomain would be a good idea.
 
One question for you guys:
Are you working on adding support for using multiple seed phrases in the same time on one device?
Moe hardware wallets are supporting this, and I think it's a good idea to add it.


I had to post this here to show how ''serious'' keystone developers really are. 
Few months ago they posted fake open source license for keystone firmware, and they excluded Foundation Devices and Zach Herbet!
This was not open source, but they fixed it and remove that crap later.

WITH THE EXPLICIT EXCLUSION OF FOUNDATION DEVICES AND ZACH HERBERT, WHO ARE STRICTLY PROHIBITED

https://github.com/KeystoneHQ/keystone3-firmware/blob/d9e7f20985140e38e4cf2c9f841f8e576d90e98f/COPYING-KEYSTONE#L19

1. .xyz is actually becoming a very common TLD for big tech companies like Alphabet, so it's not as obscure as it can seem! There also are pretty limited domain options for a common word like "foundation" and a key goal was dropping the "devices" from the domain.
2. Do you mean storing multiple and loading them as desired? We do have a WIP feature that will allow you to load BIP 85 child seeds from Key Manager and sign from them on Passport which meets the majority of that type of need.
3. That was... an interesting and unexpected exchange  None of us had ever even talked to him but seeing someone try to wield restrictive licenses out of spite on social media was a new one for me 

[RickDeckard]

Great (re)design that you made on the website @foundationdvcs. I particualry like the fact that you kept the color pallet the same between Passport, Envoy, and the website as well. I also enjoy the detail that some sections of the page resemble the exact shape of the menu that Passport holds. The devil is always on the details and you nailed it.

When will the celebrations start? 

[dkbit98]

Do you mean storing multiple and loading them as desired? We do have a WIP feature that will allow you to load BIP 85 child seeds from Key Manager and sign from them on Passport which meets the majority of that type of need.

Yes I was thinking about that, even generating multiple seed phrases would be good to have, and I think secure element memory should easily allow that.

As far as I know new Keystone devices allow storing of 3 seed phrases, Cypherock X1 can store 4, and Ellipal even more, not sure about c0ldcard and other hardware wallets.

[satscraper]

Do you mean storing multiple and loading them as desired? We do have a WIP feature that will allow you to load BIP 85 child seeds from Key Manager and sign from them on Passport which meets the majority of that type of need.

Yes I was thinking about that, even generating multiple seed phrases would be good to have, and I think secure element memory should easily allow that.

As far as I know new Keystone devices allow storing of 3 seed phrases, Cypherock X1 can store 4, and Ellipal even more, not sure about c0ldcard and other hardware wallets.

Is there a good reason to follow their path? Having a single SEED and different BIP39 passphrases one always may have separate sets of addresses. In my view, it is more simple and (at the same time) fool-proof approach than let's say "storing of 3 seed phrases" that may potentially threaten  the  security  model implemented by Passport.  

P.S. I like Passport's ability to follow BIP85 standard and  generate bunch of child-SEEDs which cover all possible cases  in use of HD wallets. For instance, one may use one of the child-SEED to feed ENVOY operating at  standalone mode.

[Meuserna]

Can anybody walk me through Foundation Passport's implementation of BIP85?

I want a hardware wallet that lets me load a QR with my parent seed and enter an index number & child seed length (12 or 24 words) to receive the child seed QR.  Can Passport do that?

For example, let's say I need to generate a new 24 word seed for a hot wallet.

I want to be able to scan my parent seed's QR code and then choose which BIP85 index number I want to use as the child seed.  Let's say I want child seed #105.

I want the device to give me a QR code for that child seed without making me jump through a ton of steps (write these words down, then write these words down, and these and these and these and confirm and confirm and and and...)  Good grief.  The parent seed IS the backup and I've already confirmed I have that by loading it!

...anyway...  I'm trying to find a hardware wallet that makes BIP85 easy.  Blockstream Jade and ColdCard do BIP85, but they make it cumbersome to use (though in fairness, I haven't seen how the ColdCard Q does BIP85 yet, but I'm not a fan of ColdCard's clunky UI.  I prefer a stateless device with quick QR access to everything).

Does Foundation Passport make it easy to get child seeds, or is it still a ton of click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click...?

[foundationdvcs]

Can anybody walk me through Foundation Passport's implementation of BIP85?

I want a hardware wallet that lets me load a QR with my parent seed and enter an index number & child seed length (12 or 24 words) to receive the child seed QR.  Can Passport do that?

For example, let's say I need to generate a new 24 word seed for a hot wallet.

I want to be able to scan my parent seed's QR code and then choose which BIP85 index number I want to use as the child seed.  Let's say I want child seed #105.

I want the device to give me a QR code for that child seed without making me jump through a ton of steps (write these words down, then write these words down, and these and these and these and confirm and confirm and and and...)  Good grief.  The parent seed IS the backup and I've already confirmed I have that by loading it!

...anyway...  I'm trying to find a hardware wallet that makes BIP85 easy.  Blockstream Jade and ColdCard do BIP85, but they make it cumbersome to use (though in fairness, I haven't seen how the ColdCard Q does BIP85 yet, but I'm not a fan of ColdCard's clunky UI.  I prefer a stateless device with quick QR access to everything).

Does Foundation Passport make it easy to get child seeds, or is it still a ton of click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click...?

Absolutely! We put a lot of time and thought into our implementation of BIP 85 called "Key Manager." We wrote a blog post detailing how exactly it works when we released the feature a few months back:

All your wallets, one backup | Foundation.xyz

If you have any questions out of that I'm more than happy to help.

[satscraper]

Can anybody walk me through Foundation Passport's implementation of BIP85?

I want a hardware wallet that lets me load a QR with my parent seed and enter an index number & child seed length (12 or 24 words) to receive the child seed QR.  Can Passport do that?

For example, let's say I need to generate a new 24 word seed for a hot wallet.

I want to be able to scan my parent seed's QR code and then choose which BIP85 index number I want to use as the child seed.  Let's say I want child seed #105.

I want the device to give me a QR code for that child seed without making me jump through a ton of steps (write these words down, then write these words down, and these and these and these and confirm and confirm and and and...)  Good grief.  The parent seed IS the backup and I've already confirmed I have that by loading it!

...anyway...  I'm trying to find a hardware wallet that makes BIP85 easy.  Blockstream Jade and ColdCard do BIP85, but they make it cumbersome to use (though in fairness, I haven't seen how the ColdCard Q does BIP85 yet, but I'm not a fan of ColdCard's clunky UI.  I prefer a stateless device with quick QR access to everything).

Does Foundation Passport make it easy to get child seeds, or is it still a ton of click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click...?

According to what was declared in this official video-guide Passport is capable to generate 20 child seeds, thus your willingness to have  "child seed #105" would be a zeal, nothing more. Is there any sense  to start with #105 but not #0? 

BTW, when generating child-seeds Passport offers to give it a key-number (proposing "0"). I think that "0" is relevant to BIP85 child-key index.  Probably it can start from not "0" index, but I'm not sure about this and reluctant   to test this as generated child-keys can't be deleted and Passport advises to generate them wisely.

[Meuserna]

According to what was declared in this official video-guide Passport is capable to generate 20 child seeds, thus your willingness to have  "child seed #105" would be a zeal, nothing more. Is any sense  to start with #105 but not #0.  

BTW, when generating child-seeds Passport offers to give it a key-number (proposing "0"). I think that "0" is relevant to BIP85 child-key index.  Probably it can start from not "0" index, but I'm not sure about this and reluctant   to test this as generated child-keys can't be deleted and Passport advises to generate them wisely.

Gotcha.  That means they're not really doing BIP85.  They're doing a limited version where you're locked into only using the first 20 index numbers, and I'm guessing they do some nonsense where they automatically choose which index number to give you.

Sheesh.

That's so stupid.

The proper implementation should be: Choose an index number & choose a child seed length.  That way, years from now if you lose a key & need to get it back, you just go back to the parent seed plus the index number without ever having to think about how the hardware wallet you set it up with worked.  My BIP85 child seeds can be regenerated by any wallet that does BIP85 correctly.  Enter the index number and choose the child seed length.

For anybody reading along who isn't familiar with BIP85, check out Ian Coleman's Mnemonic Converter tool (not with your real seed of course.  Just use it for testing & learning).

https://iancoleman.io/bip39/

Click "Show BIP85" to see how a seed with an index number generates another seed.  And since it's just math, your seed with that same BIP85 index number will always produce the same child seed.  BIP85 is a fantastic way to juggle multiple seeds.  The parent seed becomes a backup for them all.

This quote, from the BIP85 github sums it up so well:

"One Seed to rule them all, One Key to find them, One Path to bring them all, And in cryptography bind them."

It really is that simple.

[Meuserna]

Absolutely! We put a lot of time and thought into our implementation of BIP 85 called "Key Manager." We wrote a blog post detailing how exactly it works when we released the feature a few months back:

All your wallets, one backup | Foundation.xyz

If you have any questions out of that I'm more than happy to help.

That page DOESN'T show the steps.  It just gives an overview, which is why I asked the question here:  Walk me through the steps.

Let's say I want to get a QR code for a 24 word child seed for BIP85 index number 105.  What are the steps?  I'm not going to spend over a hundred bucks on a device only to find out it's a ton of clicks & isn't more convenient than using a Blockstream Jade, which does the job though inconveniently (click click click, step step step, click click click).

[satscraper]

Let's say I want to get a QR code for a 24 word child seed for BIP85 index number 105.  What are the steps?  I'm not going to spend over a hundred bucks on a device only to find out it's a ton of clicks & isn't more convenient than using a Blockstream Jade, which does the job though inconveniently (click click click, step step step, click click click).

There is no need to do many clicks  to get QR for  relevant child seed.

When you engaged into  the child seed generation on Passport you name every  following child SEED (key) . The list of these names is available in  Key Manager Extension. Thus going through this list you need a couple of clicks to get the relevant QR.

Regarding  index number 105,  Passport is limited to generate 20 keys (child-seeds) and I'm not sure if it can start let's say from BIP85 index number 100 (to cover 105) rather than from number zero.

And I repeat my question again. Is there any sense  to be concerned of   #105 but not any other number in 0-19 interval?

[Meuserna]

When you engaged into  the child seed generation on Passport you name every  following child SEED (key) . The list of these names is available in  Key Manager Extension. Thus going through this list you need a couple of clicks to get the relevant QR.

I'm not asking how to retrieve the named child seeds, or even how to name child seeds.  I'm asking how to generate a child seed in the first place.

It should be as simple as Choose Index Number.  Choose Seed Length.  Here are your words.  Display QR?  Done.

I own a Blockstream Jade, and the process of generating a child seed takes a bajillion clicks.  It works, but a process that should take less than 10 seconds instead takes a few minutes.

Regarding  index number 105,  Passport is limited to generate 20 keys (child-seeds) and I'm not sure if it can start let's say from BIP85 index number 100 (to cover 105) rather than from number zero.

And I repeat my question again. Is there any sense  to be concerned of   #105 but not any other number in 0-19 interval?

You can't be serious.  I can think of tons of examples.  Here's an easy one.  Let's say a parent sets up wallets for their kids, as college funds.  The dad uses his seed as a parent seed and uses the year each child was born as the child seed index number.

Here's another example.  Let's say you have a small company and some employees get an expense account.  Give each employee a child seed wallet using their employee number as the index number.

This is very standard stuff.  Advanced, sure, but standardized.  Just follow the BIP85 spec.  Limiting the millions of BIP85 index numbers to just 0 through 19 seems...  bizarre, arbitrary, and pointless.

Ah well.  I already have a hardware wallet that does BIP85.  I was just hoping to find one that does it well.  My search continues.

[satscraper]

You can't be serious.  I can think of tons of examples.  Here's an easy one.  Let's say a parent sets up wallets for their kids, as college funds.  The dad uses his seed as a parent seed and uses the year each child was born as the child seed index number.

Here's another example.  Let's say you have a small company and some employees get an expense account.  Give each employee a child seed wallet using their employee number as the index number.

This is very standard stuff.  Advanced, sure, but standardized.  Just follow the BIP85 spec.  Limiting the millions of BIP85 index numbers to just 0 through 19 seems...  bizarre, arbitrary, and pointless.

Ah well.  I already have a hardware wallet that does BIP85.  I was just hoping to find one that does it well.  My search continues.

Example with a parent is  the good one.

But could 20 different keys (SEEDs) be not enough to cover this ?

Definitely, If he has 21+ kids then Passport will not suite him, but, rhetoric question follows.  Who has such a gang?

Example with  a small company is bad in my view. Employee would not agree  to receive payment on wallets controlled by their boss.

For me Foundation's approach is the  wise one. There is no need to litter device's memory with the stuff that will be never used.

[foundationdvcs]

According to what was declared in this official video-guide Passport is capable to generate 20 child seeds, thus your willingness to have  "child seed #105" would be a zeal, nothing more. Is any sense  to start with #105 but not #0.  

BTW, when generating child-seeds Passport offers to give it a key-number (proposing "0"). I think that "0" is relevant to BIP85 child-key index.  Probably it can start from not "0" index, but I'm not sure about this and reluctant   to test this as generated child-keys can't be deleted and Passport advises to generate them wisely.

Gotcha.  That means they're not really doing BIP85.  They're doing a limited version where you're locked into only using the first 20 index numbers, and I'm guessing they do some nonsense where they automatically choose which index number to give you.

Sheesh.

That's so stupid.

The proper implementation should be: Choose an index number & choose a child seed length.  That way, years from now if you lose a key & need to get it back, you just go back to the parent seed plus the index number without ever having to think about how the hardware wallet you set it up with worked.  My BIP85 child seeds can be regenerated by any wallet that does BIP85 correctly.  Enter the index number and choose the child seed length.

We absolutely do implement BIP 85 correctly, and allow you to create a child key at any index. We intentionally start at index #0 to ensure that users who don't have complex requirements could easily find their child keys in the future if they didn't note them down somewhere by just starting at index #0 and iterating through them until they find the right one. Hopefully users would note down their index #s or use encrypted MicroSD backups to prevent needing to do that, though!

Absolutely! We put a lot of time and thought into our implementation of BIP 85 called "Key Manager." We wrote a blog post detailing how exactly it works when we released the feature a few months back:

All your wallets, one backup | Foundation.xyz

If you have any questions out of that I'm more than happy to help.

That page DOESN'T show the steps.  It just gives an overview, which is why I asked the question here:  Walk me through the steps.

Let's say I want to get a QR code for a 24 word child seed for BIP85 index number 105.  What are the steps?  I'm not going to spend over a hundred bucks on a device only to find out it's a ton of clicks & isn't more convenient than using a Blockstream Jade, which does the job though inconveniently (click click click, step step step, click click click).

It does show the exact steps in both text and a GIF, but I'll detail them here for you as well  

Creating a new child key is as easy as New Key > 12/24/Nostr > Choose index (defaults to starting at #0, can be set to anything you'd like) > Set name > Done. If you want to then view the QR you simply select the key from the list in Key Manager > Export > Select Format (Words/Compact SeedQR/SeedQR/MicroSD) > Done. Just to be sure I explicitly setup a key at #105 to test this with no issues 

Click me for GIF!

All of this is 100% to BIP 85 spec, and if you have a specific need for abnormally high index #s you can do that, or if you have a need for an abnormally high number of keys you can do that (you can create 20 keys per master private key, so applying a passphrase allows for 20 more child keys).

If you have any more questions I'm happy to help Meuserna, but let's please keep the tone civil and be kind to all of those in here trying to help answer your questions!

[Meuserna]

Sorry if I was rude before, but being asked "Why would you need that?" is like asking "Who needs deterministic wallets?  Isn't that overkill?" or "Why have a seed use words instead of numbers?  Who needs that?"

I've become a huge advocate of using BIP85.  There's no such thing as a lost multisig key if they were generated by a parent seed since the parent can easily regenerate every child seed.  All you need to know is the index number to get a key back.  It's a brilliant system.  I'm actually surprised BIP85 hasn't caught on among more experienced Bitcoiners.

if you have a need for an abnormally high number of keys you can do that (you can create 20 keys per master private key, so applying a passphrase allows for 20 more child keys).

Can you explain the 20 key limitation?  I assume that's a limitation of your device, since BIP85 can generate millions of child seeds - not that I need millions.  I'm just trying to understand the device since it requires extra steps such as saving and naming the child, for example.  I don't need to create the child seeds.  I did that last year.  I'm looking for the easiest way to regenerate one of them if it's lost, or if I'm traveling and need one for whatever reason.  In a perfect world, a device would just ask for the BIP85 index # and the child seed length, then show me the words so I can confirm it's correct, then give me the QR code to scan with my main hardware wallet (which doesn't do BIP85).

I don't have a high number of child seeds yet, but I do already have more then ten, and I assume I'll have more in the future since a child seed is backed up by the parent seed, which means so long as the parent seed is securely backed up (paper, metal, safe deposit box, etc), child seeds become a foolproof way to avoid loss.  Lose a key?  Regenerate it using the parent seed.

BIP85 makes managing seeds so easy, in terms of keeping track of which is for what.

[Meuserna]

Example with a parent is  the good one.

But could 20 different keys (SEEDs) be not enough to cover this ?

You're still not seeing it.

BIP85 turns a parent seed into the ultimate backup of anything you'd want to secure using words, not just Bitcoin.  I use a 12 word child seed as a decryption key.  12 words means it's unhackable, and being a child seed means it can easily be regenerated from the parent seed.  So, there's no danger of losing the decryption key since it can be regenerated by the parent.

That's why I'm trying to find a hardware wallet that makes generating BIP85 child seeds quick and convenient.

For me Foundation's approach is the  wise one. There is no need to litter device's memory with the stuff that will be never used.

I have no interest in saving them on the device.  In fact, I specifically do not want to save them on a device.  I just want to be able to quickly regenerate a child seed if I need it.

[JayJuanGee]

You can't be serious.  I can think of tons of examples.  Here's an easy one.  Let's say a parent sets up wallets for their kids, as college funds.  The dad uses his seed as a parent seed and uses the year each child was born as the child seed index number.

Here's another example.  Let's say you have a small company and some employees get an expense account.  Give each employee a child seed wallet using their employee number as the index number.

This is very standard stuff.  Advanced, sure, but standardized.  Just follow the BIP85 spec.  Limiting the millions of BIP85 index numbers to just 0 through 19 seems...  bizarre, arbitrary, and pointless.

Ah well.  I already have a hardware wallet that does BIP85.  I was just hoping to find one that does it well.  My search continues.

Example with a parent is  the good one.

But could 20 different keys (SEEDs) be not enough to cover this ?

Definitely, If he has 21+ kids then Passport will not suite him, but, rhetoric question follows.  Who has such a gang?

Example with  a small company is bad in my view. Employee would not agree  to receive payment on wallets controlled by their boss.

For me Foundation's approach is the  wise one. There is no need to litter device's memory with the stuff that will be never used.

The company example sounds like a potentially good example if the accounts of the employees were to be for company expenses rather than for the individual as an end payment.  The employee might be able to spend from such company owned accounts within parameters outlined by the company, and perhaps from time to time the account receives payments from the company or even might receive payments from customers, and maybe the account has to be replenished from time to time by the company or maybe even have some payments back to the company from time to time, but also the company has the ability to remove the authorization from the employee or to recover the account if the employee were to have had lost access to the account or if the company chooses to remove the employee's access to the account.  One account could also be accessible by several authorized employees, such as a departmental account that is ultimately owned by the company but largely managed by authorized employees within the department.

[Meuserna]

The company example sounds like a potentially good example if the accounts of the employees were to be for company expenses rather than for the individual as an end payment...

Yeah, I just made up that scenario as an example, but it's not what I'm using BIP85 for.

I think BIP85 is a very powerful tool that more advanced Bitcoiners who do self custody will find great use for in years to come because it provides an extra layer of backups for everything.  Lost a key?  Regenerate it.  Want to confirm a word in a seed?  "Is that an l?"  Regenerate it.  It's so easy.

For the average Bitcoiner doing self custody, the way the Foundation Passport does BIP85 is probably very useful, and I'd definitely recommend Passport users check it out.  But for my needs, I think it's not what I'm looking for.  I want quick access to plaintext child seed QRs.  I don't want to save the child seeds since I won't actually be using this hardware wallet as my hardware wallet (and also because I use my hardware wallet 100% stateless).  For me, this is about recovery from a parent seed, not general use of the child seed itself.

I'm starting to think about forking SeedSigner (or doing a DIY Raspberry Pi app) to make a Quick BIP85 device that does nothing but scan a parent seed, ask for a BIP85 index number and seed length to generate, & then display the child seed words followed by a plaintext QR.  That'd be a huge project for me, and it's beyond my current abilities, but it might be something to work on for the fun of it.

[satscraper]

I have no interest in saving them on the device.  In fact, I specifically do not want to save them on a device.  I just want to be able to quickly regenerate a child seed if I need it.

Nice.

Generate on the device  let's say 1000 (or whatever number you want)  SEEDs and have 1000 x 20 = 20 000 child-seeds. Or reset device and generate child-seeds each time with the same Master SEED but starting with different BIP 85 index.  But I don't think that  personally you need such quantity.

Whether you  like it or not Passport device is limited in number of child-seeds it may generate.

But for my needs, I think it's not what I'm looking for.  I want quick access to plaintext child seed QRs.  I don't want to save the child seeds since I won't actually be using this hardware wallet as my hardware wallet (and also because I use my hardware wallet 100% stateless).  For me, this is about recovery from a parent seed, not general use of the child seed itself.

Nice, then look for other device. Passport is not for you.

The company example sounds like a potentially good example if the accounts of the employees were to be for company expenses rather than for the individual as an end payment.  

Probably yes, but the niche is extremely narrow (currently one can count on fingers those  companies that use BTC in their accountance, probably they are  non-existent) . Foundation is relatively young to encompass all market and pay attention to its miserable part .

[Meuserna]

But I don't think that personally you need such quantity.

It's not about quantity.  Clearly, you're not familiar with BIP85, so you're not really understanding the conversation we're having or the use case.  That's fine, since BIP85 isn't something you have experience with or use for.  No worries.

[Pmalek]

If you have Twitter (X) and like participating in giveaways, you can win a Foundation Passport wallet today.
More information is available on the company's Twitter page: https://twitter.com/FOUNDATIONdvcs/status/1774044166223225180

You need to do 3 things:

1. Like and retweet the post.
2. Follow each page mentioned here.
3. Write a comment with #21toHalving.

They will announce the winner late tonight.

[RickDeckard]

@foundationdvcs : It has been a while so I wonder - Any plans on creating a European hub of Foundation to sell your current hardware offering (and perhaps setup shop for the future devices?). Probably this isn't on the list as a big priority considering the amount of resellers that you have but perhaps long term could be something that it could be interesting to explore?

[Pmalek]

Any plans on creating a European hub of Foundation to sell your current hardware offering (and perhaps setup shop for the future devices?). Probably this isn't on the list as a big priority considering the amount of resellers that you have but perhaps long term could be something that it could be interesting to explore?

Having a distribution centre in Europe would be cool for a company that produces devices like this one. But I don't think it's going to do much in terms of the price. Unless they also create a production and assembly line in the EU. If not, they still have to import their products from the States and pay the required taxes and fees, with the end-users feeling it at the price they will be paying in the end.

[foundationdvcs]

@foundationdvcs : It has been a while so I wonder - Any plans on creating a European hub of Foundation to sell your current hardware offering (and perhaps setup shop for the future devices?). Probably this isn't on the list as a big priority considering the amount of resellers that you have but perhaps long term could be something that it could be interesting to explore?

We have definitely explored this in the past, but as @Pmalek mentioned it wouldn't reduce costs very much. We do have a European distributor who imports in bulk and supplies smaller resellers to bring down costs as much as we can, but international customs are still just insane. We have, however, been able to greatly reduce our shipping rates internationally recently so we can at least take some cost off for the end-user there.

[dkbit98]

@foundationdvcs : It has been a while so I wonder - Any plans on creating a European hub of Foundation to sell your current hardware offering (and perhaps setup shop for the future devices?). Probably this isn't on the list as a big priority considering the amount of resellers that you have but perhaps long term could be something that it could be interesting to explore?

I know about several good resellers for Passport devices that are located in Europe.
Passport device is more expensive when ordered from one of this resellers compared to price on website, but at least you don't have to wait for delivery and import customs charges from US.
And so far I didn't see any other hardware wallet manufacturers having ''hubs'' in different countries.

[RickDeckard]

I know about several good resellers for Passport devices that are located in Europe.
Passport device is more expensive when ordered from one of this resellers compared to price on website, but at least you don't have to wait for delivery and import customs charges from US.

And so far I didn't see any other hardware wallet manufacturers having ''hubs'' in different countries.

From a business perspective, assuming you've got a established business unit, it makes sense in the long term (especially considering that clients will probably prefer buying directly from the source with the least amount of extra fees). By shipping from USA to Europe what usually happens is that, like you said, on top of the shipping you also end up paying the customs and tax on your country, which usually just blows the price out of proportion.

And so far I didn't see any other hardware wallet manufacturers having ''hubs'' in different countries.

But there are. For example, if you check Trezor FAQ[1] you'll see that they have a local hub in the USA (and SatoshiLabs Group, where Trezor belongs to, has their HQ in Czech Republic[2]):

Delivery in the UK and USA

Orders delivered to customers in the United Kingdom and the United States of America are dispatched by local fulfillment centers using local delivery services.

• The US orders are shipped from Chattanooga (TN), Grapevine (TX), Phoenix (AZ).
• The UK orders are shipped from Manchester.

The same can be said from Ledger[3]:

Regardless of where they're assembled, all Ledger orders made through our store are shipped from one of the following locations:

• Our warehouse in Vierzon, France
• Our distribution center in Memphis, Tennessee, in the United States.

I reckon that it is not fair comparing the size of these companies with Foundation, but if Foundation eventually devices to have a hub of their own in Europe I will assume that it is good news - it means that their company has matured enough to the point that they are now able to withstand costs in another continent while still being financially viable.
[1]https://trezor.io/faqs
[2]https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/satoshilabs
[3]https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/4403006133393-Where-are-orders-shipped-from?support=true

[RickDeckard]

@foundationdvcs : While in another discussion with other users[1] something struck me that wasn't asked before - is Foundation planning to release support for miniscript? It would be great if we could use Passport with miniscript[2] to create custom spending conditions on some address[3].
[1]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5492618.msg63958265#msg63958265
[2]https://bitcoinerlab.com/guides/miniscript-vault
[3]https://bitcoin.design/guide/how-it-works/custom-spending-conditions/

[NotATether]

@foundationdvcs : While in another discussion with other users[1] something struck me that wasn't asked before - is Foundation planning to release support for miniscript? It would be great if we could use Passport with miniscript[2] to create custom spending conditions on some address[3].
[1]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5492618.msg63958265#msg63958265
[2]https://bitcoinerlab.com/guides/miniscript-vault
[3]https://bitcoin.design/guide/how-it-works/custom-spending-conditions/

I'm curious to know how would a user create miniscripts inside the Passport though. Would they just import them by QR code, since typing them by a keyboard of sorts is out of the question?

Also the miniscript could get quite long if many constants are being used, which would make the QR code really big - and maybe require an extremely large QR code in some cases - so what to do about that?

[RickDeckard]

I'm curious to know how would a user create miniscripts inside the Passport though. Would they just import them by QR code, since typing them by a keyboard of sorts is out of the question?

I was actually thinking in interacting between making the code on a laptop and then use a microSD card and to also register the descriptors on the device. The implementations of miniscript that I have seen seem to involve a 3rd party entity as such is the case between BitBox and Liana[1], but I suppose that there could also be a way to make that operation without that 3rd party?
[1]https://bitbox.swiss/blog/exploring-bitcoin-miniscript-with-liana-and-the-bitbox02/

[foundationdvcs]

@foundationdvcs : While in another discussion with other users[1] something struck me that wasn't asked before - is Foundation planning to release support for miniscript? It would be great if we could use Passport with miniscript[2] to create custom spending conditions on some address[3].
[1]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5492618.msg63958265#msg63958265
[2]https://bitcoinerlab.com/guides/miniscript-vault
[3]https://bitcoin.design/guide/how-it-works/custom-spending-conditions/

Miniscript adoption is definitely something we're keeping a close eye on, and something we want to implement down the line but is quite complex to do it properly, especially from a UX perspective. Definitely on our radar but no firm implementation date to share at this point!

[RickDeckard]

Miniscript adoption is definitely something we're keeping a close eye on, and something we want to implement down the line but is quite complex to do it properly, especially from a UX perspective. Definitely on our radar but no firm implementation date to share at this point!

Great news, thank you for the quick update! As a matter of strategy, and I reckon that this may not be doable, but, as a suggestion, it would be awesome to have some sort of roadmap of features that you intend to implement on Passport. Internally I know that this probably already exists (to guide the development) and I understand that not everything could be shared, but it would be nice to have an idea how the product would develop say in 1 year from now (for example).

[Pmalek]

I just came across a video of your marketing head talking with the Bitfinex team, and I heard some interesting things I wanted to mention them and ask you about it.

• He was pretty secretive but said that Foundation is working on multiple new hardware devices, with plans to release them this year. Can you say something more, exclusively for the Bitcointalk community? We already know there won't be a pre-sale stage.
• How is the development going with Lightning being added to Envoy? When do you expect that to be finished, and have you thought about liquid BTC, for example?
• How far ahead is the Monero community with introducing their forked version of the Passport firmware to support the coin?

[foundationdvcs]

A new release of Envoy, our powerful Bitcoin mobile wallet and companion app for Passport is live now!

Read more in our blog post on the release:

https://foundation.xyz/2024/04/envoy-version-1-6-2-is-now-live/

[RickDeckard]

Was browsing around Zeus[1] Telegram group when found out a (not expected) reference to Foundation Passport in their recent alpha build (only available to sponsors):

ZEUS v0.9.0-alpha1 is now rolling out to community sponsors!

This build includes:
- Watch-only account import (xpub)
- Hardware wallet / signing device support (Coldcard Q, Seedsigner, Passport Foundation etc.)
- Batch channel opens
- Batch on-chain txs
- Close channels to external addresses
- Improved payment path view

(...)

Zeus looks like a solid wallet and knowing that Passport is intended to be integrated with it just adds more options to their users (especially considering that Zeus is a Bitcoin Lighthing wallet),
[1]https://zeusln.com/

[satscraper]

A new release of Envoy, our powerful Bitcoin mobile wallet and companion app for Passport is live now!

Read more in our blog post on the release:

https://foundation.xyz/2024/04/envoy-version-1-6-2-is-now-live/

Would be nice to have in the future releases the notification of new version at entering Envoy.

I have updated mine (1.6.0 on Android) only after reading your message.

Keep refining this magic app for Passport, the hardware wallet  we are fond of.

[foundationdvcs]

A new release of Envoy, our powerful Bitcoin mobile wallet and companion app for Passport is live now!

Read more in our blog post on the release:

https://foundation.xyz/2024/04/envoy-version-1-6-2-is-now-live/

Would be nice to have in the future releases the notification of new version at entering Envoy.

I have updated mine (1.6.0 on Android) only after reading your message.

Keep refining this magic app for Passport, the hardware wallet  we are fond of.

Already a work in progress 

Was browsing around Zeus[1] Telegram group when found out a (not expected) reference to Foundation Passport in their recent alpha build (only available to sponsors):

ZEUS v0.9.0-alpha1 is now rolling out to community sponsors!

This build includes:
- Watch-only account import (xpub)
- Hardware wallet / signing device support (Coldcard Q, Seedsigner, Passport Foundation etc.)
- Batch channel opens
- Batch on-chain txs
- Close channels to external addresses
- Improved payment path view

(...)

Zeus looks like a solid wallet and knowing that Passport is intended to be integrated with it just adds more options to their users (especially considering that Zeus is a Bitcoin Lighthing wallet),
[1]https://zeusln.com/

Good find! We are very excited for this, and it's much more novel than "just" Passport integration into another wallet. Exciting things for those who seek to use LN in a self-sovereign way.

I just came across a video of your marketing head talking with the Bitfinex team, and I heard some interesting things I wanted to mention them and ask you about it.

• He was pretty secretive but said that Foundation is working on multiple new hardware devices, with plans to release them this year. Can you say something more, exclusively for the Bitcointalk community? We already know there won't be a pre-sale stage.
• How is the development going with Lightning being added to Envoy? When do you expect that to be finished, and have you thought about liquid BTC, for example?
• How far ahead is the Monero community with introducing their forked version of the Passport firmware to support the coin?

• He was pretty secretive but said that Foundation is working on multiple new hardware devices, with plans to release them this year. Can you say something more, exclusively for the Bitcointalk community? We already know there won't be a pre-sale stage.

So sorry, we like to play things pretty close to the vest and don't want to give away too much! Suffice it to say we're going to break this space open with something new in two directions 

• How is the development going with Lightning being added to Envoy? When do you expect that to be finished, and have you thought about liquid BTC, for example?

Still a work in progress, but we have concrete plans of how we will tackle it from both an architecture and UX perspective and are working hard towards those goals. We won't release anything half-baked, and want to ensure that the integration is as seamless and intuitive as Lightning can be.

• How far ahead is the Monero community with introducing their forked version of the Passport firmware to support the coin?

Unfortunately it seems that the effort has mostly stalled, but we're in communication with some Monero devs and trying to see how we can assist.

[foundationdvcs]

An excellent new review of Passport + Envoy just dropped, thought it was worth sharing for anyone on the fence:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9EPXCJWTB0

[Pmalek]

So sorry, we like to play things pretty close to the vest and don't want to give away too much! Suffice it to say we're going to break this space open with something new in two directions 

Hmm, that sounded pretty similar to what your marketing head said in the YouTube video I watched. Are you the same guy?

Unfortunately it seems that the effort has mostly stalled, but we're in communication with some Monero devs and trying to see how we can assist.

That's too bad. I know that whatever they are building is unofficial, but it would still be cool to see a privacy coin like Monero working within an airgapped solution like that of the Passport hardware wallet.

An excellent new review of Passport + Envoy just dropped, thought it was worth sharing for anyone on the fence:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9EPXCJWTB0

I hoped it would be Ben Sessions. A pretty popular channel when it comes to these types of software/hardware wallet reviews. But I have come across the work of Crypto Guide as well. Decent lad.

[foundationdvcs]

> Are you the same guy?

Yes 

> That's too bad. I know that whatever they are building is unofficial, but it would still be cool to see a privacy coin like Monero working within an airgapped solution like that of the Passport hardware wallet.

Agreed, we'd love to see this and are working to make things like this drastically easier on a future product.

> I hoped it would be Ben Sessions. A pretty popular channel when it comes to these types of software/hardware wallet reviews. But I have come across the work of Crypto Guide as well. Decent lad.

He did a review when we first launched Passport Batch 2, but unfortunately there was a bit of a strange focus on common FUD rather than a product review. Would love to see him re-review it with all the changes that have happened to Passport and Envoy since then!

[dkbit98]

Well well, it looks like Foundation Passport is holding their ground strong against recent wave of arrests, bans coming from government officials.
We are going to have very interesting next few months, and I don't think government is stopping any time soon, they are busy with their own plans and projects like war and cbdc 

We are not removing the Whirlpool Postmix extension on Passport🌀

We eagerly await the return of Whirlpool and Samourai once their names are cleared and charges are dismissed.

https://twitter.com/FOUNDATIONdvcs/status/1788574024160702962