Wasabi Wallet - Total Privacy For Bitcoin

[BlackHatCoiner]

May you soften your absolutist perspective on life, stop viewing everything in black and white, and allow yourself to consider new information. I believe this will lead you to inner peace.

[Kruw]

allow yourself to consider new information.

That's what I'm doing by directing sentences at you that have question marks at the end of them. Please provide such information for me to consider instead of this passive aggressive fortune cookie stuff, we were making progress:

Nothing? A coordinator is not a policeman nor a jury?

No one claimed you had to be an agent of the government to help defend the innocent against criminals.

Your worldview is that "when someone infringes on another person's freedom, there must be a mechanism in place to protect that individual if they cannot defend themselves":

When someone infringes on another person's freedom, there must be a mechanism in place to protect that individual if they cannot defend themselves.

Then you follow up that the mechanism zkSNACKs implemented to accommodate your worldview isn't sufficient enough since coinjoin coordinators are non custodial and can't confiscate the coins:

The coins aren't returned back to the victims, and likely never will.

So my question still remains: What additional mechanisms (given your worldview about defending victims that you explained already) should zkSNACKS put in place?

So what sort of mechanisms should zkSNACKs put in place to defend these victims from these criminals then?

Not self-custodial during the trade, but it minimizes trust.

"Minimizes trust" is not the same thing as "Self custodial". Self custody means you have unilateral exit with no trusted third party. Owning 1 of 2 keys in a multisig does not provide this (without a presigned redemption transaction + timelock, like Lightning).

"Yes, BHC, people do choose to forfeit their custody in exchange for this service, but I refuse to ever accept this reality."

My offer from above still stands, please respond to it:

Hey BlackHatCoiner, my wallet is now a "mixing site" service, send me your coins and I won't charge you any fees.

[JollyGood]

Did he ever apologise for his despicable sustained attack on a specific forum member when he was leaving the forum due to health related issues?

Or did he apologise to those he made wild accusations towards simply because they were wearing the signature of a mixer yet pointed out the flaws of Wasabi Wallet because of their blockchain analysis implementation?

It seems he and inner peace might be incompatible.

May you soften your absolutist perspective on life, stop viewing everything in black and white, and allow yourself to consider new information. I believe this will lead you to inner peace.

[BlackHatCoiner]

we were making progress

We never do, unfortunately. You keep twisting the facts and misrepresenting what's been said. It's abundantly clear to anyone with even a basic level of critical thinking that protecting victims from thieves trying to mix their coins is not the coordinator's responsibility. Just because I don't believe in "an eye for an eye" doesn't mean I expect random entities to take on arbitrary roles, like this one.

You and I both know that you're not interested in having a genuine conversation to uncover the truth. You just want to have the upper hand in the discussion and shut me down at the first opportunity.

[Kruw]

It's abundantly clear to anyone with even a basic level of critical thinking that protecting victims from thieves trying to mix their coins is not the coordinator's responsibility.

I never claimed the coordinator has that "responsibility". My worldview is that victims are responsible for protecting themselves, any voluntary assistance given to victims by others falls in the category of "heroism".

Just because I don't believe in "an eye for an eye" doesn't mean I expect random entities to take on arbitrary roles, like this one.

So would you rather a coinjoin coordinator allow SBF's stolen coins to be anonymized or block SBF from anonymizing those coins? Analyze this scenario in a vacuum.

You and I both know that you're not interested in having a genuine conversation to uncover the truth. You just want to have the upper hand in the discussion and shut me down at the first opportunity.

If you feel this statement "shuts down" your argument, then I've thoroughly proven my point:

Hey BlackHatCoiner, my wallet is now a "mixing site" service, send me your coins and I won't charge you any fees.

Clearly you aren't willing to accept this "service" even though it's offered to you for free. That's because it's not a "service" at all, it's an obvious scam: I get your coins and you get no privacy.

As we covered before, even if someone made the foolish choice to use a custodian for this purpose, they would blend in with a larger pool of users by depositing into a custodian that offers an actual economic service like an exchange or a casino instead:

Which part of "it isn't designed to offer privacy" don't you understand? Of course and you can make an account anonymously, but that isn't my point. Your coins could be confiscated for either being "tainted", or your account could be terminated for using a "banned IP address". Can you gain privacy from such service? Perhaps. Is it suitable for that purpose? No.

The mixer you advertise is also not designed to offer privacy.  How do you not understand that?  Your mixer says it can confiscate your coins or terminate your account, so the only difference between using an exchange and using your mixer is that exchanges have a larger user base.  It is not suitable for the purpose of gaining privacy.

The real question is why would you ever want to do that? The exchange isn't portraying itself as a mixer, and if you take the time to read their privacy policy, you'll quickly figure out that you have no privacy.

Did you take the time to read the privacy policy of the mixer you are using?

3. Quality scoring of incoming transactions
We run a thorough background check of incoming funds through a proprietary algorithm.

2.1. Privacy Policy

Please refer to our Privacy Policy to get an understanding of our confidentiality obligations. You consent to the collection and use of information as described in the Privacy Policy.

2.2 Suspension or termination of services

Mixtum reserves the right to suspend or terminate access to services at any time at its own discretion, with or without reasons, with or without notification assuming no responsibility whatsoever.

For example, services may be suspended or terminated due to the following reasons:

    an actual or suspected violation of these Terms and Conditions;
    use of the service in such a manner that is conducive to the legal liability of Mixtum or Service malfunction;
    planned or unplanned maintenance, etc.

2.3 Unacceptable use

You agree that you personally will not commit, encourage or support the committal of:

    use of any unauthorized means to access the Mixtum service or use of any automated process or service (for example, spider, crawler or periodic caching of information stored or generated Mixtum) except for the functions described in our API, as well as distribution of instructions, software or tools with this aim in view;
    modification, change, distortion or any other interference in work of the Mixtum service;
    disturbing or interference in operation of servers or networks used by Mixtum to deliver the Services;
    disabling, overload or degradation of Mixtum performance (or any other network connected to the service);
    use of the Mixtum service or website for any other purposes other than those specifically provided by these Terms and Privacy Policy;
    any illegal or fraudulent activity, as well as use of this Service in order to legalize illegal income, financing of terrorism, participation in schemes of phishing, forgery or other such falsification or manipulation;
    unauthorized spamming, pyramid schemes or any other activity duplicating unwanted messages should they be commercially oriented or of other nature.

2.4 Service updates

At any time and at its absolute discretion Mixtum can carry out unscheduled works related to the service modification, update and enhancement. We are liable to add or remove functions and cease activities of the service and website.
2.5 License and restrictions

Mixtum provides you with a personal nontransferable nonexclusive license to use the Service as it is stipulated for you by Mixtum. This license is provided under conditions and restricted to the provisions, stipulations and constraints stated in these Terms. Therewith, such license is intended for personal, noncommercial use. You may not copy, modify, create a derivative work of, decompile or otherwise attempt to extract the source code of the service or any part thereof, exclusive of data permitted by law, or expressly allowed by the Mixtum platform (use of templates, API, etc.). You may not reassign (or grant a sublicense of) your rights to use the service, or otherwise transfer any part of your rights in accordance with these Terms. These Rules do not provide you with any license or permission to copy, distribute, change or otherwise use any applications programming interface despite any provisions to the contrary. No property rights or ownership rights related to the Service are not granted to you according to these Terms. Mixtum reserves all rights that have not been expressly granted.

This is why you should absolutely not be recommending mixers to the OP as an alternative for exchanges.  You are trading one trusted custodian for another without solving the issue of privacy.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I never claimed the coordinator has that "responsibility". My worldview is that victims are responsible for protecting themselves, any voluntary assistance given to victims by others falls in the category of "heroism".

Censorship is heroism. What a coward.

So would you rather a coinjoin coordinator allow SBF's stolen coins to be anonymized or block SBF from anonymizing those coins? Analyze this scenario in a vacuum.

What I would rather is beyond the point. What I would rather is not reality. Reality is that there are vast amount of solutions for SBF to mix his coins. I would absolutely not endorse any type of censorship for the sake of playing it "hero" in the eyes of petty trolls like you.

I wouldn't rather have any censorship, if that means SBF gets to get away with his coins, if that's an acceptable answer to you.

Clearly you aren't willing to accept this "service" even though it's offered to you for free.

I don't trust insignificant trolls with my coins. In the past, I have entrusted reputable mixers with them. Your argument has no grounds. You still haven't explained why people continue to use these services.


My patience is exhausted with you. As I've mentioned before, I encourage you to consider new information and set aside your ego. This will be my final post in this thread.

[Kruw]

What a coward.

How is fighting against criminals "cowardice"?

You still haven't explained why people continue to use these services.

I never needed to explain why: Mentioning that people send their coins to "mixing site" scams is a statement of fact that doesn't challenge the idea of whether or not "mixing sites" are scams in the first place.

This will be my final post in this thread.

Good riddance BlackHatCoiner. No one else I've interacted with on this forum (except o_e_l_e_o) has done more damage to the future of Bitcoin and future of freedom than you. Even after your involvement with the Chipmixer and Whirlwind scams, you knowingly spread continuous lies about privacy weaknesses in Bitcoin that do not exist. Your scheme of tricking people into giving up their data and stealing their coins will finally come to an end.

I would like to remind everyone about the admin's suggestion to avoid "mixing sites" and use Wasabi instead:

For everyone looking to improve their privacy, I highly recommend checking out Wasabi, especially over centralized "mixers".

[PrivacyG]

Good riddance BlackHatCoiner. No one else I've interacted with on this forum (except o_e_l_e_o) has done more damage to the future of Bitcoin and future of freedom than you. Even after your involvement with the Chipmixer and Whirlwind scams, you knowingly spread continuous lies about privacy weaknesses in Bitcoin that do not exist. Your scheme of tricking people into giving up their data and stealing their coins will finally come to an end.

You are a complete asshole.  You could of let BHC go and finally put a hold on this debate that, thanks to you, never leads anywhere anyway.  Instead, you prefer to stir the shit up by provoking BHC again and continuing to bring up and insult Leo who is not among us any more to fight your words but fought for what is to come and for our Privacy.  What you are doing is simply idiotic, pathetic and always brings your true colors.

You are fighting a person who is not here to defend himself any more.

Shame on you, idiot.

[Kruw]

Instead, you prefer to stir the shit up by continuing to bring up and insult Leo who is not among us any more to fight your words but fought for what is to come and for our Privacy.

You're a liar, you already know o_e_l_e_o was employed by a blockchain analysis company:

namely Leo who was among the top fighters if not the top fighter of Privacy that we had on Bitcoin Talk.

How can you say o_e_l_e_o was a "Top fighter if not the top fighter of privacy" when he was promoting Mixtum?  If o_e_l_e_o was interested in privacy, he wouldn't be telling people to deposit their coins into a chain analysis service that runs a thorough background check on coins to determine whether or not they want to confiscate them:

3. Quality scoring of incoming transactions
We run a thorough background check of incoming funds through a proprietary algorithm.

2.1. Privacy Policy

Please refer to our Privacy Policy to get an understanding of our confidentiality obligations. You consent to the collection and use of information as described in the Privacy Policy.

2.2 Suspension or termination of services

Mixtum reserves the right to suspend or terminate access to services at any time at its own discretion, with or without reasons, with or without notification assuming no responsibility whatsoever.

For example, services may be suspended or terminated due to the following reasons:

    an actual or suspected violation of these Terms and Conditions;
    use of the service in such a manner that is conducive to the legal liability of Mixtum or Service malfunction;
    planned or unplanned maintenance, etc.

2.3 Unacceptable use

You agree that you personally will not commit, encourage or support the committal of:

    use of any unauthorized means to access the Mixtum service or use of any automated process or service (for example, spider, crawler or periodic caching of information stored or generated by Mixtum) except for the functions described in our API, as well as distribution of instructions, software or tools with this aim in view;
    modification, change, distortion or any other interference in work of the Mixtum service;
    disturbing or interference in operation of servers or networks used by Mixtum to deliver the Services;
    disabling, overload or degradation of Mixtum performance (or any other network connected to the service);
    use of the Mixtum service or website for any other purposes other than those specifically provided by these Terms and Privacy Policy;
    any illegal or fraudulent activity, as well as use of this Service in order to legalize illegal income, financing of terrorism, participation in schemes of phishing, forgery or other such falsification or manipulation;
    unauthorized spamming, pyramid schemes or any other activity duplicating unwanted messages should they be commercially oriented or of other nature.

2.4 Service updates

At any time and at its absolute discretion Mixtum can carry out unscheduled works related to the service modification, update and enhancement. We are liable to add or remove functions and cease activities of the service and website.
2.5 License and restrictions

Mixtum provides you with a personal nontransferable nonexclusive license to use the Service as it is stipulated for you by Mixtum. This license is provided under conditions and restricted to the provisions, stipulations and constraints stated in these Terms. Therewith, such license is intended for personal, noncommercial use. You may not copy, modify, create a derivative work of, decompile or otherwise attempt to extract the source code of the service or any part thereof, exclusive of data permitted by law, or expressly allowed by the Mixtum platform (use of templates, API, etc.). You may not reassign (or grant a sublicense of) your rights to use the service, or otherwise transfer any part of your rights in accordance with these Terms. These Rules do not provide you with any license or permission to copy, distribute, change or otherwise use any applications programming interface despite any provisions to the contrary. No property rights or ownership rights related to the Service are not granted to you according to these Terms. Mixtum reserves all rights that have not been expressly granted.

[Wind_FURY]

And mixer's receiving address is merely another peer in the network, no? Centralized mixers, like centralized exchanges, are merely providing a service for the community.

That's my exact point: A "mixing site" is just someone else's wallet. Unlike exchanges or casinos, a "mixing site" is not a service since there is no underlying purpose for the site's existence.

That's merely according your own personal opinion. Because if the entity you call "the wallet" actually mixes their users' outputs well, then who are you to tell everyone that "there's no underlying purpose for its existence"? If it's a service and does the service well, then it's up to you to use it, or not to use it.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Kruw]

Because if the entity you call "the wallet" actually mixes their users' outputs well, then who are you to tell everyone that "there's no underlying purpose for its existence"? If it's a service and does the service well, then it's up to you to use it, or not to use it.

The entity's wallet doesn't mix users' outputs at all. There's absolutely nothing technological involved here that enhances privacy.

[Kruw]

Want to test the flagship feature of the next release? PR 13469 adds some awesome auditing features for your coinjoin transactions! You can review the inputs and outputs of each coinjoin you participated in along with their anonymity scores and values. When viewing a group of consecutive remix transactions, any remixes with the same outputs of previous rounds that interlink with your newer rounds are cut through to show you the total net flow of foreign funds.

[Wind_FURY]

Because if the entity you call "the wallet" actually mixes their users' outputs well, then who are you to tell everyone that "there's no underlying purpose for its existence"? If it's a service and does the service well, then it's up to you to use it, or not to use it.

The entity's wallet doesn't mix users' outputs at all. There's absolutely nothing technological involved here that enhances privacy.

I'm talking about a hypothetical mixing service that actually does everything right, which may also exist somewhere, no?

But if you believe that a mixer that was advertised in BitcoinTalk is/was merely an "entity's wallet" that does/did absolutely nothing, then please ser, kindly show us the data/proof of your findings.

That would stop the nit-picking in the topic.

[Kruw]

I'm talking about a hypothetical mixing service that actually does everything right, which may also exist somewhere, no?

Yeah, that's exactly my point that proves o_e_l_e_o and BlackHatCoiner's goal is to scam users out of both their coins AND their data. You can't possibly mistake these scammers for "Privacy Advocates" since the custodians they promote don't provide any privacy whatsoever, despite the option for these custodians to issue fully anonymous Chaumian Ecash.

But if you believe that a mixer that was advertised in BitcoinTalk is/was merely an "entity's wallet" that does/did absolutely nothing, then please ser, kindly show us the data/proof of your findings.

Stop playing dumb, it's not like you could have forgotten that you still owe everyone on this thread an apology for your partnership with Sinbad:

Pmalek and WIND_FURY, your choice to lure people into depositing their coins into a "Mixing Site" has led to their data being turned over to the government:

To all criminal users of former mixer Sinbad.io,
This is a collective warning issued by the Dutch Investigation Service for Financial and Tax Crime (FIOD) and the Dutch Public Prosecution Office.
Our investigation has uncovered illicit activities on this mixer platform and the logs obtained have compromised the anonymity of numerous users.
We urge all criminal users and admins of mixers to cease all unlawful actions immediately. Persistent engagement will lead to severe legal consequences. We are resolute in pursuing and prosecuting all involved in criminal activities.
Your anonymity is no longer assured. Law enforcement actions are imminent.
With Vigilance,
Dutch Investigation Service for Financial and Tax Crime (FIOD) and the Dutch Public Prosecution Office

If only someone had warned everyone about mixing sites collecting your data!  

I "lured" people into using a mixer?

Yes, you and Pmalek promoted Sinbad.  Now Sinbad has turned over their users' data to the government.

[JollyGood]

It seems as though Kruw has nothing more to add (definitely nothing constructive) therefore he is scraping the barrel with this again by trying to attack Wind_FURY and Pmalek.

Though slightly off-topic, I created the aptly title thread After Chipmixer, Is Sinbad.io Next To Be Shutdown? around six months before it actually happened. I knew it was merely a matter of time because the same money launderer behind Blender moved at least $22 million to Sinbad when he started it as reported here.

I "lured" people into using a mixer?

Yes, you and Pmalek promoted Sinbad.  Now Sinbad has turned over their users' data to the government.

[Kruw]

Though slightly off-topic, I created the aptly title thread After Chipmixer, Is Sinbad.io Next To Be Shutdown? around six months before it actually happened.

Yep, you've proven yourself as a vindicated skeptic of these "mixing site" scams:

Hi, Folks, I guess I got scammed too?

I am sorry to read about what happened to you.

It has been said many times and should be reiterated here, you really have to carry out due-dilligence whenever sending funds to any website (exchange, mixer, online shop, etc) because they might be using their services as a front in order to scam others.

You should have tried Wasabi Wallet

[Wind_FURY]

I'm talking about a hypothetical mixing service that actually does everything right, which may also exist somewhere, no?

Yeah, that's exactly my point that proves o_e_l_e_o and BlackHatCoiner's goal is to scam users out of both their coins AND their data. You can't possibly mistake these scammers for "Privacy Advocates" since the custodians they promote don't provide any privacy whatsoever, despite the option for these custodians to issue fully anonymous Chaumian Ecash.

Although I agree that centralized servers will always keep logs and ChipMixer kept the private keys in their server, but where's the data that those services actually didn't do their jobs in mixing their users' outputs? They probably did mix them, no? Because, with the sort of people that use their service, their admins would probably have more severe problems than being caught by the authorities. Plus why would they build their reputation and merely break it by not doing their jobs?

Stop playing dumb,

Let me stop you there. That wasn't proof that that mixer didn't do its job. In fact, ALL mixers might be at risk of getting seized by the authorities, and if some coordinators become a very popular choice - they will probably come after those too and invent "reasons" to stop them.

[Kruw]

where's the data that those services actually didn't do their jobs in mixing their users' outputs? They probably did mix them, no?

No, we already established these sites do absolutely no "mixing" whatsoever, it's just a deposit address for the scammer's wallet:

Because if the entity you call "the wallet" actually mixes their users' outputs well, then who are you to tell everyone that "there's no underlying purpose for its existence"? If it's a service and does the service well, then it's up to you to use it, or not to use it.

The entity's wallet doesn't mix users' outputs at all.

[Pmalek]

In an America obsessed with the fight against privacy and restricting freedom of speech, we have Wasabi and Kruw as individuals and services they aren't taking actions against. While other developers of privacy software are being jailed and persecuted, Kruw shows his face online and talks privacy. Do not use his honeypot coordinator service. If it was as good as he is trying to make you think it is, it would be outlawed and he would be in jail already or have charges against him. Don't trust honeypots!     

[Kruw]

Reminder from the forum admin that you should NOT TRUST "mixing sites" with your privacy and use Wasabi instead:

Congratulations to the Wasabi and JoinMarket developers! JoinMarket pioneered a lot of CoinJoin science (and BTW, belcher wrote an excellent & comprehensive wiki article on privacy), while Wasabi is the first wallet that implements CoinJoin in both a highly-usable and sound way. As both a signer and a donor to the CoinJoin bounty fund, I'm thrilled that these two pieces of software exist!

For everyone looking to improve their privacy, I highly recommend checking out Wasabi, especially over centralized "mixers".

In an America obsessed with the fight against privacy and restricting freedom of speech, we have Wasabi and Kruw as individuals and services they aren't taking actions against. While other developers of privacy software are being jailed and persecuted, Kruw shows his face online and talks privacy. Do not use his honeypot coordinator service. If it was as good as he is trying to make you think it is, it would be outlawed and he would be in jail already or have charges against him. Don't trust honeypots!    

You are a traitor to Bitcoin. You backstabbed Satoshi. Pay back your victims you scammer:

Pmalek and WIND_FURY, your choice to lure people into depositing their coins into a "Mixing Site" has led to their data being turned over to the government:

To all criminal users of former mixer Sinbad.io,
This is a collective warning issued by the Dutch Investigation Service for Financial and Tax Crime (FIOD) and the Dutch Public Prosecution Office.
Our investigation has uncovered illicit activities on this mixer platform and the logs obtained have compromised the anonymity of numerous users.
We urge all criminal users and admins of mixers to cease all unlawful actions immediately. Persistent engagement will lead to severe legal consequences. We are resolute in pursuing and prosecuting all involved in criminal activities.
Your anonymity is no longer assured. Law enforcement actions are imminent.
With Vigilance,
Dutch Investigation Service for Financial and Tax Crime (FIOD) and the Dutch Public Prosecution Office