Wasabi Wallet - Total Privacy For Bitcoin

[Coinjoiner21]

Awesome, glad to see more coordinators. A minimum input count of 8 seems a bit low though, a single client can register up to 10 inputs.

It is low.  It is only temporary, until we have some liquidity.  Do you know by any chance how to add a coordinator to liquisabi?  I tried to contact them, but their X and Nostr accounts are probably bots.  We are successfully announced on Nostr, according to our coordinator logs, so it should have found us. 

[lontivero]

Do you know by any chance how to add a coordinator to liquisabi?  I tried to contact them, but their X and Nostr accounts are probably bots.  We are successfully announced on Nostr, according to our coordinator logs, so it should have found us. 

If I understand this correctly, it seems that Liquisabi is not discovering coordinators all the time but only when it starts: https://github.com/turbolay/LiquiSabi/blob/main/LiquiSabi.ApplicationCore/Publishing/Nostr/CoordinatorDiscovery.cs

Open an issue in the Liquisabi repository, Turbo has a full-time job but I am pretty sure he can restart his service if he see the request.

[Coinjoiner21]

Open an issue in the Liquisabi repository, Turbo has a full-time job but I am pretty sure he can restart his service if he see the request.

Thanks.  I created an issue: https://github.com/turbolay/LiquiSabi/issues/4

I also created an announcement thread for our coordinator: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5567276.msg66126348#msg66126348.

A few hours ago we made our genesis coinjoin transaction: https://mempool.space/tx/938593192d65abe7ab9ef027b227cab7129917e1ffb64670ad3b1c3da6473bb3.  Thanks to whoever joined us!

[Coinjoiner21]

Do you know if Kevin Ravens (@KevinR4v) is the owner of Wabisator.com? I have tried adding a custom coordinator by visiting https://wasabi.kravens.nl/ but the page is probably dead. 

[JollyGood]

I think it will probably be very difficult for those that use Wasabi Wallet to change coordinators and start using your service. Can you get listed on the Wabisator site? I think it will help provide transparency for those that would like to see information before they make a decision: https://wabisator.com/

Hello forum.

We have set up a new coordinator: https://coinjoiner.com/.  More coordinators means greater robustness and resilience.  We aim to use leftover fees to fund developers who will work on addressing Wasabi's shortcomings (read more about this in our website).  We don't have any liquidity at the moment, so it'd be appreciated if some of you could switch coinjoining with us for a little time.

Please tell us what you think about our main idea.

[BlackHatCoiner]

How does Liquisabi know the leftover amount of a coinjoin? If the minimum output decomposition is 5000 sats, and there's an output with value lower than that, then it is easy, but for Kruw's coordinator, leftover amount is often something around 20k sats. How does it detect that as leftover? Is it simply because the value of that output is obviously not a standard denomination?

Please tell us what you think about our main idea.

It's a good idea. One thing that could improve the resilience is discovering coordinators using the Nostr network, and displaying it like Electrum does for SPV servers. If a big coordinator was shut down, then users wouldn't need to manually add a new coordinator, the client would automatically switch to the next one.

[Kruw]

How does Liquisabi know the leftover amount of a coinjoin? If the minimum output decomposition is 5000 sats, and there's an output with value lower than that, then it is easy, but for Kruw's coordinator, leftover amount is often something around 20k sats. How does it detect that as leftover? Is it simply because the value of that output is obviously not a standard denomination?

I believe adding the coordinator's address for leftover collection is always the last "event" in the output registration phase before the signing phase begins.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I believe adding the coordinator's address for leftover collection is always the last "event" in the output registration phase before the signing phase begins.

I don't think it's possible to be anything other than the last event in output registration. Users forfeit their leftovers during issuance of their credential amounts. The coordinator must wait until all Alices have finalized and sent him their credentials. Only then can he derive the leftover output, which is the sum of all small leftovers he has received.

That does not answer how Liquisabi figures out the leftover output, though. Given a coinjoin transaction, you can't know which output was registered last.

[lontivero]

That does not answer how Liquisabi figures out the leftover output, though. Given a coinjoin transaction, you can't know which output was registered last.

Given a coinjoin transaction you can't know which output was registered last. But Liquisabi doesn't analyze the transaction but the conjoin rounds and there you have what output registration event was the last one.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Given a coinjoin transaction you can't know which output was registered last. But Liquisabi doesn't analyze the transaction but the conjoin rounds and there you have what output registration event was the last one.

So Liquisabi listens to every coordinator listed, and records every coinjoin round. It seems like taking part in a coinjoin, but never registering any inputs. It simply listens to whatever the coordinator broadcasts. Interesting.

[Coinjoiner21]

Liquisabi added us.  Wabisator is still not up-to-date. 

We have increased the minimum input count to the default value (21).  We appreciate those few who pointed their coordinator URI to ours and coinjoined with us.  We are open to suggestions.

[BlackHatCoiner]

We are open to suggestions.

When I was testing the protocol, I configured a coordinator to coinjoin in testnet. I'm sure there are more people who might want to try out the protocol but with fake bitcoin. Perhaps they want to see how and when their inputs are registered, how much they pay in leftover fees, how often they remix with their already semi-private coins, how much time it takes to coinjoin a big amount etc.. You could dedicate a server solely for testnet coinjoins.

Also, there was a site maintained by one of Samourai contributors, I think it was KYCP.org (Know Your Coin Privacy), which showed interesting statistical information regarding the coinjoin. I remember there were several issues with Wasabi 1.0 coinjoins. It'd be interesting to have something similar for Wasabi 2.0 coinjoins.

[Coinjoiner21]

You could dedicate a server solely for testnet coinjoins.

We are now coordinating coinjoins in testnet4.  

Network: TestNet4
Coordinator URI: https:// testnet.coinjoiner.com
Indexer URI: https:// testnet.coinjoiner.com

(remove the space after "https", the forum is detecting it as suspicious)

I have configured the minimum input count to be 25 and the max 500.

[BlackHatCoiner]

We are now coordinating coinjoins in testnet4.

Pointed some testnet coins to Coinjoiner and got this: https://mempool.space/testnet4/tx/d324efd101674be24a60276d9052856df65be0e982ce9bbe1eb82e0cef9f8a28. I'll leave it running in case others want to join. WabiSabi rocks.

For anyone trying to do the same: the default testnet4 indexer of Wasabi (https://api.wasabiwallet.io) is down and using Coinjoiner's indexer URI caused me an overflow bug: https://github.com/WalletWasabi/WalletWasabi/issues/14201. So, the only way to connect is by running your own testnet4 node with blockfilterindex=1 and connecting it to Wasabi through RPC.

[Mrsatsman]

Hi, I used wasabi a few years ago and the coinjoin process was very easy, right now I am confused about what the coordinator is and how to configure it and also the settings on stop coinjoin threshold and non-private coin isloation. Can someone please give a brief explanation on how these works? I am trying to coinjoin but I have no clue how to set these up

[Coinjoiner21]

I am confused about what the coordinator is

The coordinator is a centralized server that orchestrates WabiSabi coinjoin transactions.  It coordinates multiple users to combine their inputs into a single large transaction.  For example, this coinjoin: https://mempool.space/tx/149692ba852661fe7cb0b4795d5dbe14a33f200d5fd75e76f81c4ee4755c1125.

You can find coordinators and their liquidity here: https://liquisabi.com/. To configure it simply copy the URI (e.g., "https://coinjoin.kruw.io" or "https://api.coinjoiner.com") and paste it on Coordinator settings -> Coordinator -> Coordinator URI.

and also the settings on stop coinjoin threshold and non-private coin isloation

The threshold is the limit under which your wallet won't automatically start the coinjoin.  You can configure it on Wallet Settings -> Coinjoin -> Stop coinjoin threshold.  As for the non-private coin isolation, if you turn it off, your Wasabi client can register multiple non-private inputs in a single coinjoin.  Leaving it on ensures that no observer can tell with high likelihood that these non-private inputs belong to the same entity, although it costs more in mining fees because you participate in more coinjoins. 

[Mrsatsman]

I am confused about what the coordinator is

The coordinator is a centralized server that orchestrates WabiSabi coinjoin transactions.  It coordinates multiple users to combine their inputs into a single large transaction.  For example, this coinjoin: https://mempool.space/tx/149692ba852661fe7cb0b4795d5dbe14a33f200d5fd75e76f81c4ee4755c1125.

You can find coordinators and their liquidity here: https://liquisabi.com/. To configure it simply copy the URI (e.g., "https://coinjoin.kruw.io" or "https://api.coinjoiner.com") and paste it on Coordinator settings -> Coordinator -> Coordinator URI.

and also the settings on stop coinjoin threshold and non-private coin isloation

The threshold is the limit under which your wallet won't automatically start the coinjoin.  You can configure it on Wallet Settings -> Coinjoin -> Stop coinjoin threshold.  As for the non-private coin isolation, if you turn it off, your Wasabi client can register multiple non-private inputs in a single coinjoin.  Leaving it on ensures that no observer can tell with high likelihood that these non-private inputs belong to the same entity, although it costs more in mining fees because you participate in more coinjoins. 

Thanks. So if I want to mix 0.02 coins, do I set the threshold at 0.02 or under 0.02? Also when configuring the coordinator, what about the Max Coinjoin mining fee and min input count? how do I set that up?

[Coinjoiner21]

So if I want to mix 0.02 coins, do I set the threshold at 0.02 or under 0.02?

It does not matter.  Leave it as is (0.01) and just manually press the coinjoin play button to start. 

Also when configuring the coordinator, what about the Max Coinjoin mining fee and min input count? how do I set that up?

These are configurable at the Coordinator settings.  What those are:

• Max Coinjoin mining fee rate: the maximum sat/vb you will accept to join a round.  If you set it to 5 sat/vb, your Wasabi Wallet will only pay less or equal to that amount.  If the fee rate increases due to mempool congestion, and the coordinator asks for higher fee rate, you're automatically excluded from that coinjoin.
• Min Input Count: the minimum input count that the coinjoin must have for your client to accept and sign it.  By default it is 21, so your wallet would not accept signing a coinjoin with e.g. only 15 inputs.

Please consider that apart from the mining fee, you might pay a small amount called "leftover" which cannot be over 5k or 10k sats (depending on the coordinator), and it goes to the coordinator if it cannot be denominated to one of the standard amounts.  For example, in this coinjoin, the coordinator collected 1846 sats in total: https://mempool.space/tx/5df6932b84486affdc98463ae3c34ad79d8a94bd2d92c1fc59dbccc392ba22bf.

[Mrsatsman]

So if I want to mix 0.02 coins, do I set the threshold at 0.02 or under 0.02?

It does not matter.  Leave it as is (0.01) and just manually press the coinjoin play button to start. 

Also when configuring the coordinator, what about the Max Coinjoin mining fee and min input count? how do I set that up?

These are configurable at the Coordinator settings.  What those are:

• Max Coinjoin mining fee rate: the maximum sat/vb you will accept to join a round.  If you set it to 5 sat/vb, your Wasabi Wallet will only pay less or equal to that amount.  If the fee rate increases due to mempool congestion, and the coordinator asks for higher fee rate, you're automatically excluded from that coinjoin.
• Min Input Count: the minimum input count that the coinjoin must have for your client to accept and sign it.  By default it is 21, so your wallet would not accept signing a coinjoin with e.g. only 15 inputs.

Please consider that apart from the mining fee, you might pay a small amount called "leftover" which cannot be over 5k or 10k sats (depending on the coordinator), and it goes to the coordinator if it cannot be denominated to one of the standard amounts.  For example, in this coinjoin, the coordinator collected 1846 sats in total: https://mempool.space/tx/5df6932b84486affdc98463ae3c34ad79d8a94bd2d92c1fc59dbccc392ba22bf.

Thanks, generally what's is a safe amount to set for the mining fee rate and the min input count? finally, is there a way to confirm that the coinjoin URI is safe and not like a backend that compromises my wallet?

[Coinjoiner21]

Thanks, generally what's is a safe amount to set for the mining fee rate and the min input count?

I would set mining fee rate at 3 sat/vb right now.  Min Input Count could be left as is, at 21. 

finally, is there a way to confirm that the coinjoin URI is safe and not like a backend that compromises my wallet?

The coordinator cannot compromise your wallet and take your bitcoin.  Anything you're receiving from the coordinator is verified by your client.  For example, if the coordinator gives you a coinjoin transaction that takes your bitcoin, your client will simply reject it.