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[virasog]

+1 to what you said because casino rules and regulations are set in stone. If not, the casino cant be trusted because they are breaking their own rules.
This is why it is every important for every gambler to always read and understand the casino TOS before using it to avoid future complications.

And these rules we’re seeing aren’t just made up out of nowhere. Casinos can’t simply invent them without approval from their license providers or regulators. They’re supposed to make sure the rules are valid and fair for gamblers.

So when you see a casino that’s properly licensed, you should expect that their rules are there for fairness, to protect both the casino and the players, at least in principle.

One thing that is very common among most of the gamblers is that they are keen to gamble or bet but they are least interested in reading the terms and conditions for the casino.

There are two reasons for this, one the gamblers usually think that there are just generic statements written in TOS and nothing special to read. Secondly, they believe that all the casinos have similar TOS and therefore they don't care to read them. Not reading the terms may be one of the biggest mistake the gamblers may make.   

[pawel7777]

The definition itself may be correct and not illegal, but I’m not convinced it applies to this case in the same way. This looks more like value betting, where the odds or market were posted incorrectly and a player simply capitalized on the error. If I remember correctly, this has already been discussed on the forum before, and the casino’s TOS clearly states that they reserve the right to void bets placed due to obvious mistakes.

no rules can be found here https://2up.io/policy/terms-of-service

Nah, it was definitely arbitrage betting. The OP in the scam accusation topic posted a snippet from a response of a customer service representative when they explicitly accused him of arbitrage. The other telling sign is, of course, relatively large and weird bet amounts (eg. $365.96 etc). Arbitrage bettors often cannot bet round amounts if the arbitrage profit is small and betting round amounts on all sites would mean no guaranteed profit.

Arbitrage is not illegal as you are literally just placing bets at the odds proposed by the casino, but many operators would have restrictions on it. I advised 2UP (in the scam accusation thread) to explicitly mention their policy on arbitrage betting, as currently, this is not clear. If they resort to seizing all players' balances because of the use of arbitrage, it's necessary to clearly lay out all the rules, otherwise, it could damage the casino's reputation.

People are quick to jump on players not reading terms of service, but many casinos also take a relaxed approach to drafting such, leaving a lot of gray areas and too much room for interpretation. There are 2 sides to this coin.

[blockman]

+1 to what you said because casino rules and regulations are set in stone. If not, the casino cant be trusted because they are breaking their own rules.
This is why it is every important for every gambler to always read and understand the casino TOS before using it to avoid future complications.

As if all gamblers are reading the rules and the TOS that casinos have. They're only going to read it when they have encountered a problem. But in the beginning, there's no way for them to read the entirety of it and very unlikely that they'll read all of it once they sign up. I think it's most of us that just signs up whenever we want to register and just agrees to whatever is written in the TOS. But I agree, that's an important thing to be considered by serious gamblers who don't want to face serious troubles so that they'd know what are the rules.

[Distinctin]

If they wanted to, the casino could certainly refund funds even if the user committed a violation. However, doing so would only create bigger problems in the future, as users would become more daring, even if the violation didn't have any consequences.

They wouldn’t refund it if what’s written in the TOS clearly says that winnings and bonuses are forfeited. That’s how I understand it. They’ll stick to the rules because those rules are supposed to apply to everyone.

If they refund some players but not others, they become inconsistent with their own rules. And if they can’t respect their own rules, then gamblers won’t respect them either.

Well, obviously they won't do that, but what I meant before was “if they want to” They can easily return the money that has been withheld, it's not a big deal for them. But rules are made to be enforced and they have to be consistent too, so with that they will never refund users who have committed violations.
They make rules for themselves so that it is not easy to be abused by players. Cheating is the main enemy in any case, including in gambling. So with the rules made it will minimize cheating.

I’d rather not drag the discussion using the word “if”, because the rules are definite unless they’re changed. Whatever is written should be interpreted as it is, no more and no less. If they do refund, that simply means they admit something went wrong and they’re willing to correct it.

[gaynellehalsey]

Why does everyone take the casino's word for it that players are using arbitrage betting? Or is supporting evidence irrelevant to you? Proving this is very difficult, and the bet amounts are irrelevant. A second provider would be needed to compare bet amounts and other evidence, but of course everyone took the casino's word for it. Without evidence, it's unclear who is right and who is wrong. First, the accusation needs to be proven. And if, say, 2up has a wider selection of sports bets than other providers, is that considered arbitrage? And the most important violation of casino rules is deposit theft, so this casino is a complete scam; no one has the right to steal players' deposits.

[Salahmu]

As if all gamblers are reading the rules and the TOS that casinos have. They're only going to read it when they have encountered a problem. But in the beginning, there's no way for them to read the entirety of it and very unlikely that they'll read all of it once they sign up. I think it's most of us that just signs up whenever we want to register and just agrees to whatever is written in the TOS. But I agree, that's an important thing to be considered by serious gamblers who don't want to face serious troubles so that they'd know what are the rules.

Half of gamblers does avoid reading rules, some even feels that they cannot violate any of the rules on the casino even if they haven't read it but they always realized later they have violated what they didn't no was on the rules, some gamblers usually get to no about some rules after they had issues that they feel the casino was cheating them until they decided the support should give them the answer they need and the support would refer them to the casino rules that prohibited the action they took, that's when some will start saying it was suddenly added because of the complaint but however if the person has been careful and coordinated enough they would have known all the rules before that point.

[Don Pedro Dinero]

Half of gamblers does avoid reading rules,

Way more than half I would say. I don't actually read them anymore, because I used to read some ToS in the past, but in the end, if you register at a new casino, they all have similar ToS. I might just look at a specific point, such as whether they allow access with a VPN and things like that. But since I bet low amounts and don't engage in questionable behavior, I've never had any problems.

[Haunebu]

Why does everyone take the casino's word for it that players are using arbitrage betting? Or is supporting evidence irrelevant to you? Proving this is very difficult, and the bet amounts are irrelevant. A second provider would be needed to compare bet amounts and other evidence, but of course everyone took the casino's word for it. Without evidence, it's unclear who is right and who is wrong. First, the accusation needs to be proven. And if, say, 2up has a wider selection of sports bets than other providers, is that considered arbitrage? And the most important violation of casino rules is deposit theft, so this casino is a complete scam; no one has the right to steal players' deposits.

You are partially right and wrong here. Firstly, they can find out if anyone is arbing if the punter keeps beating the CLV(Closing Line Value) consistently prematch without needing to check the bets on the other sides. Bet amounts are relevant too.

Secondly, you are totally right when it comes to deposit theft. Sites usually just limit stakes to small amounts and allow the punter to withdraw their deposits and winnings.

[maknyos]

Well, obviously they won't do that, but what I meant before was “if they want to” They can easily return the money that has been withheld, it's not a big deal for them. But rules are made to be enforced and they have to be consistent too, so with that they will never refund users who have committed violations.
They make rules for themselves so that it is not easy to be abused by players. Cheating is the main enemy in any case, including in gambling. So with the rules made it will minimize cheating.

I’d rather not drag the discussion using the word “if”, because the rules are definite unless they’re changed. Whatever is written should be interpreted as it is, no more and no less. If they do refund, that simply means they admit something went wrong and they’re willing to correct it.

I think you misunderstood what I meant, sir, because again, of course they will apply the rules that they have set.
In gambling we will still be faced with rules which if we violate then we must be prepared with the consequences, otherwise the casino will definitely stick to the rules they have set.
As users, we must obey all existing rules, the rules that have been set can no longer be negotiated because they are absolute.

[Questat]

Half of gamblers does avoid reading rules,

Way more than half I would say. I don't actually read them anymore, because I used to read some ToS in the past, but in the end, if you register at a new casino, they all have similar ToS. I might just look at a specific point, such as whether they allow access with a VPN and things like that. But since I bet low amounts and don't engage in questionable behavior, I've never had any problems.

For me it’s not really necessary to read the full TOS if you’re honest with what you’re doing.
Most of the time, the ones who complain about TOS issues are those who are already planning to violate it or cheat.

Personally I’ve only read parts of it, usually when an issue comes up and I want to check if it’s actually written there. So far my gambling has been honest and I’ve never had any problems related to violating the TOS.

[un_rank]

Why does everyone take the casino's word for it that players are using arbitrage betting? Or is supporting evidence irrelevant to you?
...

I will like to see casinos post details when a user is accused of breaking a rule. My guess will be that this could compromise future investigations, telling those who want to cheat what to avoid doing to not get caught. If the amount is big enough trusted mediators should be privy to the investigation details and then give their verdict on it.

On the deposit being withheld, I have always been 100% on the player getting their funds back. If the dispute is about the actions that led to the winnings, then seize only those winnings and give them back their money even if you are going to kick them from the platform.

Half of gamblers does avoid reading rules, some even feels that they cannot violate any of the rules on the casino even if they haven't read it but they always realized later they have violated what they didn't no was on the rules...

Many of the rules are very straightforward. If you are not going to use a VPN then normal gambling actions will mostly not get you in trouble, you almost always have to intend to break the rule to do so. It is good practice to archive the terms even if you do not red it to have a copy of what you signed up to at the time.

- Jay -

[Maus0728]

Way more than half I would say. I don't actually read them anymore, because I used to read some ToS in the past, but in the end, if you register at a new casino, they all have similar ToS. I might just look at a specific point, such as whether they allow access with a VPN and things like that. But since I bet low amounts and don't engage in questionable behavior, I've never had any problems.

True, my colleague taught me all about it, they all pretty much have the same asking for their users most of the time and if I recall, you can't add something so blatantly illegal because if lawsuits come, any illegal in there will be pointed out even if there's an agreement accepted. I never got around reading most ToS but most of them pretty much sums up that they can do what they want of your data.

[Distinctin]

Well, obviously they won't do that, but what I meant before was “if they want to” They can easily return the money that has been withheld, it's not a big deal for them. But rules are made to be enforced and they have to be consistent too, so with that they will never refund users who have committed violations.
They make rules for themselves so that it is not easy to be abused by players. Cheating is the main enemy in any case, including in gambling. So with the rules made it will minimize cheating.

I’d rather not drag the discussion using the word “if”, because the rules are definite unless they’re changed. Whatever is written should be interpreted as it is, no more and no less. If they do refund, that simply means they admit something went wrong and they’re willing to correct it.

I think you misunderstood what I meant, sir, because again, of course they will apply the rules that they have set.
In gambling we will still be faced with rules which if we violate then we must be prepared with the consequences, otherwise the casino will definitely stick to the rules they have set.
As users, we must obey all existing rules, the rules that have been set can no longer be negotiated because they are absolute.

I’m just emphasizing that casinos need to strictly implement their rules so they won’t be abused. One incident where they bend or deviate from their own rules just to favor a gambler can hurt them in the long run. That kind of incident can easily be used later to justify a gambler’s wrongdoing and demand the same treatment, and that’s where things start to get messy.

[lionheart78]

Half of gamblers does avoid reading rules,

Way more than half I would say. I don't actually read them anymore, because I used to read some ToS in the past, but in the end, if you register at a new casino, they all have similar ToS. I might just look at a specific point, such as whether they allow access with a VPN and things like that. But since I bet low amounts and don't engage in questionable behavior, I've never had any problems.

I think the gamblers who read TOS are less than 10% of the total gamblers.  People are so in haste to gamble after registration, so most of them click the checkbox and agree to the terms and conditions without even browsing them.

Just like you, I am also one of those who read terms before, then stop reading afterward because in my mind they are almost the same in general(but they have distinctioni in reality) and as long as I don't do anything foolish like using VPN, involved in value betting although not illegal, many bookmaker restricts this kind of action, and many other that is listed as generally don'ts of the casino platform.

[Awaklara]

I think the gamblers who read TOS are less than 10% of the total gamblers.  People are so in haste to gamble after registration, so most of them click the checkbox and agree to the terms and conditions without even browsing them.

You’re right, I also often don’t read the full ToS of the sites I access. But at least I make sure whether it’s allowed to access using a VPN and whether my region is permitted on the gambling site. 
Sometimes I even playfully contact support and ask questions that are actually already provided. Just to see how the support responds. Although the first ones to greet us are bot support that gives general answers.

[gaynellehalsey]

Why does everyone take the casino's word for it that players are using arbitrage betting? Or is supporting evidence irrelevant to you? Proving this is very difficult, and the bet amounts are irrelevant. A second provider would be needed to compare bet amounts and other evidence, but of course everyone took the casino's word for it. Without evidence, it's unclear who is right and who is wrong. First, the accusation needs to be proven. And if, say, 2up has a wider selection of sports bets than other providers, is that considered arbitrage? And the most important violation of casino rules is deposit theft, so this casino is a complete scam; no one has the right to steal players' deposits.

You are partially right and wrong here. Firstly, they can find out if anyone is arbing if the punter keeps beating the CLV(Closing Line Value) consistently prematch without needing to check the bets on the other sides. Bet amounts are relevant too.

Secondly, you are totally right when it comes to deposit theft. Sites usually just limit stakes to small amounts and allow the punter to withdraw their deposits and winnings.

For example, at 2up, the odds for an event are 2, while at other providers they're around 1.8. You call that arbitrage? Don't players have the right to choose where they're most profitable?

[suzanne5223]

+1 to what you said because casino rules and regulations are set in stone. If not, the casino cant be trusted because they are breaking their own rules.
This is why it is every important for every gambler to always read and understand the casino TOS before using it to avoid future complications.

And these rules we’re seeing aren’t just made up out of nowhere. Casinos can’t simply invent them without approval from their license providers or regulators. They’re supposed to make sure the rules are valid and fair for gamblers.

So when you see a casino that’s properly licensed, you should expect that their rules are there for fairness, to protect both the casino and the players, at least in principle.

Yes, the rules and regulations are not something that just come out of thin air. They are something implemented and advised by most master gambling license holders, game providers, and regulators.
Despite how glaring the rules are, only a few gamblers take the time to digest it. However, we also have some casinos that seize the rules and regulations opportunity to implement harsh conditions for their uses and this is one of the reason i like what 2up.io is doing with their rules and gaming services.

+1 to what you said because casino rules and regulations are set in stone. If not, the casino cant be trusted because they are breaking their own rules.
This is why it is every important for every gambler to always read and understand the casino TOS before using it to avoid future complications.

As if all gamblers are reading the rules and the TOS that casinos have. They're only going to read it when they have encountered a problem. But in the beginning, there's no way for them to read the entirety of it and very unlikely that they'll read all of it once they sign up.

This is the genesis of the problem with most gamblers who accuse the casino blindly.
Yes, the information to read maybe many atleast reading the most important shouldn't be a big deal.

[pawel7777]

Why does everyone take the casino's word for it that players are using arbitrage betting? Or is supporting evidence irrelevant to you? Proving this is very difficult, and the bet amounts are irrelevant. A second provider would be needed to compare bet amounts and other evidence, but of course everyone took the casino's word for it.(...)

Most of people commenting here are either on payroll of 2UP (like myself) or other casinos, so we have vested interest to side with casinos. So don't expect to see a massive support here.
What supporting evidence of you not doing arbitrage are you referring to?
Why would the amounts be irrelevant? You are right that this is not proving arbitrage above any doubt, but it's still a strong evidence that you might have been involved in such.

(...) And the most important violation of casino rules is deposit theft, so this casino is a complete scam; no one has the right to steal players' deposits.

That's what I previously thought too, but I've done some quick research with Chat GPT and it tells me that seizing players deposits can be allowed in certain circumstances when player breaches casino's Terms of Service. This would depend on many factors including legal jurisdiction etc. It's not all black and white.
Realistically speaking, if casinos were allowing that, they could go bust, so you shouldn't be surprised by their decision, as it's an existential threat to them. If we all were doing that, a total mathematical advantage could shift to players' side, meaning house going bankrupt.
I agree that seizing all your funds (including deposit) is probably too harsh (unless the amount was trivial), especially considering arbitrage is not illegal by law and it's just a matter of complying with T&Cs.

Out of curiosity, have you withdrawn any winnings from your arbitrage betting? If so, were those earnings greater than the deposit they seized?

[Promocodeudo]

Half of gamblers does avoid reading rules, some even feels that they cannot violate any of the rules on the casino even if they haven't read it but they always realized later they have violated what they didn't no was on the rules, some gamblers usually get to no about some rules after they had issues that they feel the casino was cheating them until they decided the support should give them the answer they need and the support would refer them to the casino rules that prohibited the action they took, that's when some will start saying it was suddenly added because of the complaint but however if the person has been careful and coordinated enough they would have known all the rules before that point.

It is not half, it is more than half although we might not have the actual numbers gamblers that do this but they thing is that, gamblers that does this are much and thats called ignorance or negligence that cause them some shit later, what is important to most gamblers if they visit a gambling site to gamble is, to know if the gambling platform has the type of games they like to play, the minimum deposit and how reliable their withdrawal system is, infact they may not even care about withdrawals and proceed to play their games after all they will want to win first before they can think of withrdawing, as a result of ignorance, they neglect what they are suppose to have known earlier.

[blockman]

As if all gamblers are reading the rules and the TOS that casinos have. They're only going to read it when they have encountered a problem. But in the beginning, there's no way for them to read the entirety of it and very unlikely that they'll read all of it once they sign up. I think it's most of us that just signs up whenever we want to register and just agrees to whatever is written in the TOS. But I agree, that's an important thing to be considered by serious gamblers who don't want to face serious troubles so that they'd know what are the rules.

Half of gamblers does avoid reading rules, some even feels that they cannot violate any of the rules on the casino even if they haven't read it but they always realized later they have violated what they didn't no was on the rules, some gamblers usually get to no about some rules after they had issues that they feel the casino was cheating them until they decided the support should give them the answer they need and the support would refer them to the casino rules that prohibited the action they took, that's when some will start saying it was suddenly added because of the complaint but however if the person has been careful and coordinated enough they would have known all the rules before that point.

I'm not sure if that's only half but I guess that the most of us are avoiding reading it once we sign up. And that's true that we think that we're not going to violate one of it or we're not going to that point that we have to violate any of it.

As if all gamblers are reading the rules and the TOS that casinos have. They're only going to read it when they have encountered a problem. But in the beginning, there's no way for them to read the entirety of it and very unlikely that they'll read all of it once they sign up.

This is the genesis of the problem with most gamblers who accuse the casino blindly.
Yes, the information to read maybe many atleast reading the most important shouldn't be a big deal.

And they'll go back to the TOS when they're already facing the problem or when they're informed that they've done something against the casino.