Bird singing contest or hidden gambling?

[Darker45]

I don't think this is gambling. Paying an entry fee to qualify for a contest that has a prize doesn't make it gambling. Your entry fee isn't a bet. It's for you to be allowed to participate in the competition. And this normal. Many contests require participants to pay registration fees or entry fees. Or else the Miss Universe pageant would be considered gambling.

However, those side bets are gambling. But they aren't part of the event or the competition, so they shouldn't be included in the "elements that resemble gambling".

[viljy]

~

What do you think?
Should activities like bird singing competitions be considered gambling or just a normal contest with prizes?

This is not a gambling game because it is a contest. Well, strictly speaking, betting on winners is not a gambling game - it's betting. Gambling is roulette, card games, etc. Not every game can be turned into gambling. For example, chess is a game, but not a gambling game. This is the difference between gambling and betting. Because absolutely anything can be turned into betting! Presidential elections, sports events, weather events, life and death, and even a chess game. But this does not mean that the presidential election turns into a gamble because someone has placed a bet on a candidate. Similarly, a birdsong contest does not become a hidden gambling game because someone bets on birds.

[gunhell16]

This contest is actually strange; I've only just heard of such events in other countries. My only question is, how do you know if a bird is singing? It seems like it's hard to determine if the
bird is singing. Then there are many people who participate in that contest.

Maybe it's just an amateur contest that's like a person's, not gambling, or it really depends on the gamblers who can still consider it a gamble if they have a bet that allows them
to choose which of the winners is the singing bird.

[DubemIfedigbo001]

~

What do you think?
Should activities like bird singing competitions be considered gambling or just a normal contest with prizes?

Well, strictly speaking, betting on winners is not a gambling game - it's betting.

You may want to consult you definition table once again,. Betting is a subset of gambling and it involves wagering something to predict the outcome of an event, and in the bird singing contest, the side bets are betting and are still gambling.
Gambling is like an envelope that wraps all wagering activities. Betting is specific because it deals with wagering of mostly external activities like football, horse racing and is still applicable the the subject matter.

[viljy]

~

What do you think?
Should activities like bird singing competitions be considered gambling or just a normal contest with prizes?

Well, strictly speaking, betting on winners is not a gambling game - it's betting.

You may want to consult you definition table once again,. Betting is a subset of gambling and it involves wagering something to predict the outcome of an event, and in the bird singing contest, the side bets are betting and are still gambling.
Gambling is like an envelope that wraps all wagering activities. Betting is specific because it deals with wagering of mostly external activities like football, horse racing and is still applicable the the subject matter.

You may not have caught the meaning of what I was trying to express. I'll try to explain it another way. Just forget the literal definitions of the terms for a while. Betting is one of the realizations of the human instinct of excitement (let's call it that).

Gambling is another form of realization of the instinct of excitement. Gambling is roulette, blackjack, dice, slots, aviator and others, but not chess or boxing. Do you see the difference? Gambling is based on pure chance. Where experience and skill matter, it's no longer gambling. This is the "betting territory".

But betting with bets can be made on anything at all! However, this does not automatically turn this "whatever" into a gambling game. That is, if you call a donkey a horse, then the donkey will not become a horse. Well, that's something like that. At least I tried to explain it as best I could.

[TedMosby]

Believe it or not, just beside my house (like just a few steps away), there’s a field where these bird owners gather every Sunday for a bird singing contest. At first, just a few people, now there are many. A free bird concert every Sunday. Hahaha…

I’ve never been there, only hearing it from my house. And sometimes, there’s a bird that gets loose from the cage and stays or flies around my house, and at that moment, I know, this is that bird… LOL.

I’ve never known how the winners are chosen. Just because of your post, I decided to Google how they pick the winners. And it turns out, it’s so complex yet objective. Even more complex than human's singing contests or pageant contests.

The bird singing contest is usually judged based on rhythm, tempo, sound stability, sound quality, variation, duration, loudness, etc [1][2].

Speaking of the gambling side, it’s just like any other activity. As long as there is a possibility, there’s a chance for gambling. If I am not mistaken, I also saw a video on social media of gamblers betting on the number of cars passing a specific road. IMO, this is easier to manipulate. You can pay people to pass the road, right? In this case, bird singing contest is more make sense.

Source:
[1] https://journal.jis-institute.org/index.php/jnik/article/download/505/303
[2] https://repository.dinamika.ac.id/id/eprint/1846/3/BAB_II.pdf

[goldkingcoiner]

Side-bets might be illegal, depending on the country and if you actually get caught or ratted out by someone, but they are not regulated or even watched (how would they be?) so there is nothing to worry about there.

The contest itself has no gambling aspect to it because people are not betting their money with the contest holder (but they are with each other, aka sidebets).

Bird singing contest sounds interesting though.

[Akbarkoe]

Competitions like this are just like other competitions or some human sports and so on, theoretically this is a form of competition format, pay for registration and compete to show your abilities and that's where you get the results whether or not you deserve to win the competition, there is no gambling element because this is a competition.

Unless you see a bird singing contest and you bet on one bird that you think will win, then you are gambling on a bird singing contest.

[Sandra_hakeem]

You are right that there are some elements of gambling because there's still the concept of risk and reward involved
‎but I don't see it as hidden Gambling. ‎Its more of a competition than gambling. I would also believe that these type of events are done once in a while, so even though there's the risk to reward factor, it's still less mentally draining than the recent times always-accessible casino's and betting companies.

Side-bets might be illegal, depending on the country and if you actually get caught or ratted out by someone, but they are not regulated or even watched (how would they be?) so there is nothing to worry about there.

It's a known practice, just not regulated by the locals and/or supported by everyone.

[Emitdama]

If the contest just select the singing quality, rhythm, and performance, that is not gambling. But the audience use this chance to make money. I don't know how they gamble using that contest but I know this contest is available in my area.

I mean this is a singing contest. So what do we expect? In a contest, there is always a criteria for judging if who among the contestants are going to be the winners. But yeah, gambling minds will always have an idea if what thing is next best for use with gambling. It is not only the people though but I already saw prediction platforms that can offer odds for different events even the weirdest one can imagine.

To gamble this type of game, a person will of course do some negotiation with the other party about how much bets are allowed and what are their conditions to win. It is not always the winner of the game though is the one that can make the gambler a winner but different ways or outcomes can be incorporated too.

[Cointxz]

If the contest just select the singing quality, rhythm, and performance, that is not gambling. But the audience use this chance to make money. I don't know how they gamble using that contest but I know this contest is available in my area.

To gamble this type of game, a person will of course do some negotiation with the other party about how much bets are allowed and what are their conditions to win. It is not always the winner of the game though is the one that can make the gambler a winner but different ways or outcomes can be incorporated too.

Due to the existence of betting market I believe gambling on any contest/event is much easier without the need to establish conditions with other bettor in person as long as the contest results can be determined online.

On this case, anyone can setup a betting option for this contest then let others decide what to bet on.

All contests can be incorporated by gambling nowadays.

[Kelward]

I don't think this is gambling. Paying an entry fee to qualify for a contest that has a prize doesn't make it gambling. Your entry fee isn't a bet. It's for you to be allowed to participate in the competition. And this normal. Many contests require participants to pay registration fees or entry fees. Or else the Miss Universe pageant would be considered gambling.

However, those side bets are gambling. But they aren't part of the event or the competition, so they shouldn't be included in the "elements that resemble gambling".

I agree that contests shouldn't be seen as gambling because they are not open to the public to bet and either win or lose also the perticipants are not relying solely on luck to win, their skills can determine who wins the contest. But I believe that some contests have the features of gambling that is if the organizers are doing the contest for profit purposes where many contestants pay to register and after paying the winners more than the amount that they used to register the organizers are making profit. I think such contests are gambling indirectly maybe not for the contestants but the organizers are no different from casinos that have the house edge over their gamblers or contestants in the case of contests. If a contest is not profit driven then it's not gambling in anyway.

[passwordnow]

There is an indirect gamble there but it's not with the actual organizers but the participants or lurkers who just want to bet with the organized contest.

All contests can be incorporated by gambling nowadays.

I agree, it's not the fault of the organizers or the contest creators. But it's the participants faults that they're putting a side bet in it and that's really possible for every contest.

[Lida93]

What do you think?
Should activities like bird singing competitions be considered gambling or just a normal contest with prizes?

It's a contest. Why would it be considered as gambling? This is literally a very common system for a contest out there, and if this is considered gambling, then a lot of contests out there that have a similar system should also be considered gambling. As for people doing side bets, those are very common in a lot of contests, too, though it is usually illegal for the contestants to do that themselves.

The op have it all wrong in in trying to claim that the contest in question is synonymous to gambling. It's like the football leagues where many teams come together to contest for the league trophy is gambling, meanwhile it's just a contest for them but the gambling aspect where people has to predict the possible outcome of the games is what it's gambling.

[LUCKMCFLY]

A gambler is capable of thinking of anything just to bet on it. They can certainly make this event an event to bet on. Personally, I wouldn't bet on something like that, I wouldn't bet on any event of that style. The biggest gamblers in the world would, but it's just to bet, to feel that adrenaline rush. It's not very appealing, but the mere fact of seeing that adrenaline is produced when risking money is something that can already mean emotion.

[Hispo]

Also, this whole thread got me thinking... Isn't catching wild birds for the sake of compiting in contests like those ones illegal?

Here in my country anyone who is caught getting birds off their natural habitat and selling them is processed for crimes against the state and it's natural diversity.

If someone tried to do something similar like this one here in Venezuela, then the place being used to hold those contests would be raided and many people there would be arrested for animal trafficking.

[Orpichukwu]

The op have it all wrong in in trying to claim that the contest in question is synonymous to gambling. It's like the football leagues where many teams come together to contest for the league trophy is gambling, meanwhile it's just a contest for them but the gambling aspect where people has to predict the possible outcome of the games is what it's gambling.

Or the OP might actually be seeing it as gambling because of the side bet which happens inside the event centre by those who are watching it or between those whose birds are contesting. The event itself is not gambling; those activities which are carried out which involve staking and expecting to win based on the result are what's regarded as gambling. Either the OP knows this or is viewing the gambling definition from another side.

[PX-Z]

....
Because of this, some people think this is a form of legal gambling, even in a country that bans gambling.
Others say it is just a competition and hobby, not gambling.

You have a point, but if we are thinking the same to any sports fest, competitions and say even the olympic you can say any kind of competition is a form of gambling because what you describe exists for those competitions but in the first place its a sport or just competition where people try to win the medal then the prize pool.

[impulse709]

That is hidden gambling since people will not show if they bet for bird. They picking the bird and pay to the dealer and wait for which bird will win. The contest itself might not be gambling as that is a contest bird and the jury pick the winner based on their evaluation and those who bet will not show that they bet and just watch from far.

In a nutshell, anything can literally be gambled upon, because it just requires two or more individuals who are willing to stake a certain amount of money over a predictably possible outcome of an event. And when it comes to this bird singing contest, the gambling aspect of it might not be even publicly known, as it might be within a certain group of cartels. And when it comes to the Bird singing contest originally, it can't be called gambling, despite the fact that people pay for a ticket and just a few whose birds could sing melodiously are privileged to win a reward.

I believe that both of these outlooks have a point. A bird singing contest in its purest form is merely a competition wherein the trained birds are rated on performance and therefore cannot be labeled gambling on its own. But, as it was discussed, the problem is that when individuals begin to bet privately on which bird will win, the problem emerges. Although it might not be the crime that the bet is displayed, the fact that money is wagered on an unsure result definitely constitutes gambling. This transforms the contest to be rather more of an arena that facilitates underground betting as opposed to what gambling really is. Finally, it will be determined by the way in which people approach the event.

[jcojci]

If the contest just select the singing quality, rhythm, and performance, that is not gambling. But the audience use this chance to make money. I don't know how they gamble using that contest but I know this contest is available in my area.

I mean this is a singing contest. So what do we expect? In a contest, there is always a criteria for judging if who among the contestants are going to be the winners. But yeah, gambling minds will always have an idea if what thing is next best for use with gambling. It is not only the people though but I already saw prediction platforms that can offer odds for different events even the weirdest one can imagine.

To gamble this type of game, a person will of course do some negotiation with the other party about how much bets are allowed and what are their conditions to win. It is not always the winner of the game though is the one that can make the gambler a winner but different ways or outcomes can be incorporated too.

Behind the contest, some people using that for gamble. Those who often gamble really know how to use the moment to gamble

People are smart enough to finds something that they will use to bet. They can contacts their friends to bet on that thing. Some people still gamble behind the show, that will be more exciting for them.

Those gambling activities may not be seen by other people, only some group people who knows. It is why maybe officials will not know if some people gamble on that show.