Will the Sidechain innovation kill all Altcoins?

[cuddaloreappu]

A nice topic to discuss, already I posted in reddit for discussion, I bought it here too so that experts here could give their opinions.


With the upcoming sidechain technology , I really think altcoins are doomed, when you can do anything you want with bitcoin itself, need a faster transaction time then develop a fastcoin like sidechain...need an anonymous currency develop a sidechain with zerocoin like features..

I am a non technical person and i want to know about the future and how sidechains will disrupt the cryptocurrency ecosystem.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/22v0nw/will_the_sidechain_innovation_kill_all_altcoins/

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[kooke]

Most altcoins are pump and dump schemes by people trying to grow their btc stash. There will be alts as long as it's profitable for their developers. That said, if sidechains could take all the best features from alts and apply them to btc, there wouldn't be much incentive to use any other crypto.

[bitpop]

Yes please. Good riddance. Litecoin etc dilute Bitcoin and the market cap. The only purpose is because they hope it pumps.

[jdun]

I've never heard of sidechain. Do you have a better link, because that reddit link does not really explain sidechain.

[Bit_Happy]

I read "sidechain alts" destroy (small) amounts of BTC.
That doesn't sound sustainable....?

[acoindr]

You know, it's probably 3% or less of the world's population that really understands Bitcoin. If you get into alt-coins those meager numbers drop further. Don't mention meta coins like Mastercoin, and now there is 'side chains'.

I first dismissed Bitcoin because I misunderstood it. When alt-coins arrived I understood them but dismissed them as unnecessary. However, I later viewed them as playing an important role for the cryptocurrency community, namely providing backup and alternative to Bitcoin. I felt this was necessary for many reasons, some technical, some economic, but above all else because it's hard to gain consensus the more people there are and Bitcoin naturally wants the largest possible userbase. That seemed inherently problematic to me, something which became fairly pronounced with the community uproar over Bitcoin Foundation, a potentially dominant force for centralizing power. That caused me to see that alt-coins could be valuable after all by easing pressure over infights with only one blockhain in which everyone had invested stake. Hard forks of course could be disastrous. Indeed I've seen various heated topics come up where people have talked of storming off to an existing or new alt-coin, like zero coin. Had alt-coins not been seen as a viable option these would have been potential Bitcoin hard forks brewing, not good.

I've listened to the LTB podcast on side chains. They are the first cryptocurrency related technology where out of the box I see the value (I'm still not there with meta coins). Whether or not side chains kill off alt-coins remains to be seen. I doubt they kill off the strongest alts, but it may clear many of the bottom of the ladder ones. I still have questions about how side chains can do all they promise on a technical level, namely in terms of scalability, while still relying on decentralized mining and record keeping, if that's indeed how they work. So I'm not entirely sure how side chains will impact our community, but I do think they hold large, potentially very large promise.

[acoindr]

I read "sidechain alts" destroy (small) amounts of BTC.
That doesn't sound sustainable....?

No, it's some of the meta coin proposals that do that from what I understand. Sidechains introduce something called "two way pegging" (thanks to gmaxwell) which allows bitcoins to flow back and forth from the side chain. That's why I see a lot of potential with them.

[freedomno1]

Sidechains are interesting still need more knowledge on their functioning but the Adam back article was helpful
Innovation without risking the system itself (Make a test bed of sorts with other coins)
http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/news/adam-back-sidechains-can-replace-altcoins-bitcoin-2-0-platforms/2014/04/10

[jdun]

Sidechains are interesting still need more knowledge on their functioning but the Adam back article was helpful
Innovation without risking the system itself (Make a test bed of sorts with other coins)
http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/news/adam-back-sidechains-can-replace-altcoins-bitcoin-2-0-platforms/2014/04/10

Thanks, that article helps to explain it better, but gosh the whole idea of sidechains really adds a lot of confusion to the bitcoin game. And personally, I don't think this sidechain idea (even if it were to be implemented in full) would have much impact on all of the altcoins. All of the coins (bitcoin included) is a game of speculation/popularity. Buy the coins now that you think will become popular one day. Same with the stock market.

[cuddaloreappu]

Sidechains: Maaku explains how coins will move from sidechain back to Bitcoins requiring a 3 day transaction loop.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=566704.0;all

[Bit_Happy]

I read "sidechain alts" destroy (small) amounts of BTC.
That doesn't sound sustainable....?

No, it's some of the meta coin proposals that do that from what I understand. Sidechains introduce something called "two way pegging" (thanks to gmaxwell) which allows bitcoins to flow back and forth from the side chain. That's why I see a lot of potential with them.

Thank you for clearing that up.
I need to read a lot more about sidechains.

[freedomno1]

Sidechains: Maaku explains how coins will move from sidechain back to Bitcoins requiring a 3 day transaction loop.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=566704.0;all

Thanks did not see the D@T thread on this topic it makes a lot more sense to me now reading Dev Talk
That said agree with Bit_Happy need to read up a lot more on side chains although that thread looks like a great place to start

Sidechains are interesting still need more knowledge on their functioning but the Adam back article was helpful
Innovation without risking the system itself (Make a test bed of sorts with other coins)
http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/news/adam-back-sidechains-can-replace-altcoins-bitcoin-2-0-platforms/2014/04/10

Thanks, that article helps to explain it better, but gosh the whole idea of sidechains really adds a lot of confusion to the bitcoin game. And personally, I don't think this sidechain idea (even if it were to be implemented in full) would have much impact on all of the altcoins. All of the coins (bitcoin included) is a game of speculation/popularity. Buy the coins now that you think will become popular one day. Same with the stock market.

Glad it helped checked the D@T thread another article related to it fair bit longer and technical but interesting
What it adds from what I gleaned is interchangeability and the ability to move bitcoins around various areas kind of akin to shopping in one store then moving to another one
From Article
__
I move it into a sidechain that has higher transactions per second and then move the change back into the main Bitcoin network and then put it into a different side chain to invest it a Bitcoin denominated derivative against US dollars or buy electronic shares or something like that.  Bitcoin is used as interoperability level moving across the pegs, allows open innovation in a neutral sense without creating a new scarcity race.
_
It is a preferable approach to these other 2.0 projects because it is an interoperable approach so you can move money around and interoperate between different networks, different side chains.
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And addresses the mobile phone problem
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Sidechain that is pegged to bitcoin, so there is no counterparty risk, no escrow agent holding your bitcoin.  Your bitcoin can move between networks which are tied, in that sense they are merged mined.  People can do their innovation in interoperable way
_
Anyways neat stuff
http://www.ofnumbers.com/2014/04/09/paraphrased-notes-from-back-and-hill-interview/

[reader31]

the side chains will become just another altcoin ...jack of all trades master of none!

[Peter R]

I believe that our community's increased awareness of side-chains and spin-offs (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=563972.0) will be sufficient to reduce the market cap currently held by alts.  Why would you want to invest bitcoins in an alt-coin, if a side-chain or spin-off can assimilate any technology that proves useful and automatically distribute it to a wider user base (and for no cost in the case of spin-offs)?

That being said, I think coins that don't offer any technical improvements over bitcoin, but instead strongly appeal to subsets of the community, may be unaffected by side-chains and spin-offs.  Take DOGE for instance.  DOGE is not technically innovative, but instead derives its market cap from its usefulness to its like-minded community.  It's community is the intersection of those who:

    - believe that a permanently-inflating money supply is superior;  
    - like the idea that their money is meme'd after the shiba inu bread of dog.

If this community forms an economy of like-minded people I can see it surviving, and growing but only to a limited extent since the pool of potential new users must also prefer permanent currency debasement and Shiba Inus.  On the other hand, members of the DOGE community may slowly come to view Shiba Inu's as silly and currency-debasement as wasteful.  

What is interesting is that right now the market cap of DOGE is about 64,000 BTC . However, as cryptocurrency grows, if bitcoin grows faster than dogecoin (due to DOGEs specific appeal to a smaller subset of all humans), then the DOGE market cap will fall when measured in terms of bitcoin.  

If the reality is that most of the DOGE community actually likes capital gains more than Shiba Inus memes and currency debasement, then they would be incentivized to sell DOGE in favour of BTC.  Now what is really interesting, is that although the DOGE market cap is 64,000 BTC, there is no way for everyone to get out of doge with anything close to this.  If there is a stampede out of doge, the community will lose wealth in aggregate (actually that wealth was never there if this is the case).

This means that members of the DOGE community (or other niche-based coin communities) really have to ask themselves: are we in this because of our like for the Shiba Inu meme and our belief in currency debasement?  Do we really believe that we can build a real and lasting economy around the shibe?

[Bit_Happy]

...
This means that members of the DOGE community (or other niche-based coin community) really have to ask themselves: are we in this because of our like for the Shiba Inu meme and our belief in currency debasement?  Do we really believe that we can build a real and lasting economy around the shibe?

Doge will outlast Pets.com
Doge will be bigger than MySpace?
Doggie will pay for flights into outer space?



The CEO of Reddit called Doge "stupid yet brilliant"......can it last?

[Netnox]

Altcoins will exist because of they are attractive for traders

[Peter R]

The CEO of Reddit called Doge "stupid yet brilliant"......can it last?

It's a really interesting question and I am enjoying watching it play out.  

When everyone thought it was a funny joke and was mining it for the lulz, it was a good investment (at least based on the greater-fool theory) because people were underpricing the value of the community network effect that was unfolding.  The doge subreddit quickly had a vastly larger number of subscribers than r/litecoin!  

The day doge died for me was when I saw the add for Obamacare using the Shiba Inu meme.  The Shibe went from something funny that brought like-minded and care-free people together (that just wanted to have fun with cryptocurrency), to an exploited meme:



http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-28/obamacare-plunges-new-lows-presenting-dogecare

[cryptohunter]

side chains are nothing more than alts that are only given out to BTC owners, will never take off once people understand clearly what they are.

Alt supporters will never adopt them. They serve to preserve wealth only for BTC whales.

[YarkoL]

This means that members of the DOGE community (or other niche-based coin communities) really have to ask themselves: are we in this because of our like for the Shiba Inu meme and our belief in currency debasement?  Do we really believe that we can build a real and lasting economy around the shibe?

For those that understand the joke, Shiba Inu becomes a symbol of community. It's not just the meme, but the feeling of participating in community and sharing its values, which in the case of Doge have more to do with copious tipping and helping each other out than "debasing the currency".

Many hard-core bitcoiners suffer from the optical illusion of seeing every other cryptocoin as a competitor for world domination. The remedy for this is to view cryptocurrency as primitive decentralized, autonomous communities. Once we get out of the currency fixation, it becomes apparent that many DACs can flourish side by side, just as many different share-issuing companies.

[ebliever]

If BTC can do sidechains, than so can altcoins. So there is no inherent advantage to BTC for this, besides BTC already being the market leader and perhaps the first to try sidechaining. But that is also a risk - if they implement a sidechain badly or it screws anything up, it could hurt BTC big time. If I were them I'd let some minor altcoins try some things with sidechaining first. (I suspect some altcoins will be more nimble than BTC in implementing good sidechain ideas anyway.)