Bir Tawil nation

[blacksails]

Good! you'll move the fleet you are just forgetting the thousand of KM of ice forming to get your fish from the edge of water to your station ? using trucks? not happening I'll tell you why with proof if you want to argue about this.

Wind power? your wind tubines won't last a day in the middle of winter it will be completely frozen!, your wave power infrastructure will be destroyed when winter comes (what does happen to water when it freeze? or let me simplify my question what does happen to full bottle of water if you put it in the freezer ?) Biogas, I'm telling you it's not an option I explained this with data, the only logical solution is to get and make huge fuel supply and resupply every summer

The average temperature in winter is around -26° in one of the hottest area there, right, but you build your station to cope with the worst situation or to cope with the average temperature? if you have 2 days of -60° what are you going to do? that's bad design and bad planing. You'll just remove ice? if only it was easy as that....you'll have ice all over the winter remember you have -26° degree average....

Cows can live just fine at 18°C I don't recall saying the opposite, but heating and keeping the temperature at 18 from -40 -30 -20°C is another story, I don't how you still believe that you can create a totally adiabatic isolated system, something if it was possible we would be doing for ages in our northen cities, cities in some of the richest countries in the world like Sweden or Norway, and countries like Canada or Russia where condition are no where as harsh as in  Antarctica and this is not the issue like I said if you want to create biogas, you need bacterial fermentation that beed 35°C.
And btw the only unclaimed area in south pole is this

Which is not as warm as the other areas and very harsh to reach and work on

Ground? what ground ? maybe you missed the part that in winter the ground is under meters dozens of meters in some areas the soil is hundrend of meters and kilometers deep and under ice as hard as rock?

I have to be on lepirates side in this one. All he was saying was that it would be easier to build a base on antarctica than Mars and Bir Tawil. And guess what? He's right! I've never seen him claim that he had all details. And you just seem to be upset that he criticized your Mars plan IMO.

Here are some solutions to all the problems you mention:
1. You can fly the fish over the ice. Also it can be transported over the ice with good machines. Another possibility is to have enough food stored for the winter months.

2. Wind turbines works just fine in cold, as long as they don't get covered in ice. The biggest wind power parks in Sweden is placed in the far north of this northern country. Winters there get extremely cold as well. All that needs to be done are some adjustments for the climate. Wave power generators though will break if they're still in the water when the ice comes. A solution would be to take them up for the winter. Bio gas can absolutely work, placed deep under the ground with some heavy isolation. Add some heat and it will produce. Remember that it's not as cold under the ground. And you came up with a solution as well, to save up a lot of fuel during the summers! That is also a good idea.

3. If it gets to cold it would just be to evacuate the top floor or heat it up even more. Not that complicated.

4. If I understand lepirates posts right his suggestion is to build it in the dry valleys. Which would not be in the unclaimed territory though.



Btw, America does not claim any parts of Antarctica, and doesn't recognize any other countries claims either.

[1713992296]

1713992296

[1713992296]

1713992296

[1713992296]

1713992296

[Kiki112]

Good! you'll move the fleet you are just forgetting the thousand of KM of ice forming to get your fish from the edge of water to your station ? using trucks? not happening I'll tell you why with proof if you want to argue about this.

Wind power? your wind tubines won't last a day in the middle of winter it will be completely frozen!, your wave power infrastructure will be destroyed when winter comes (what does happen to water when it freeze? or let me simplify my question what does happen to full bottle of water if you put it in the freezer ?) Biogas, I'm telling you it's not an option I explained this with data, the only logical solution is to get and make huge fuel supply and resupply every summer

The average temperature in winter is around -26° in one of the hottest area there, right, but you build your station to cope with the worst situation or to cope with the average temperature? if you have 2 days of -60° what are you going to do? that's bad design and bad planing. You'll just remove ice? if only it was easy as that....you'll have ice all over the winter remember you have -26° degree average....

Cows can live just fine at 18°C I don't recall saying the opposite, but heating and keeping the temperature at 18 from -40 -30 -20°C is another story, I don't how you still believe that you can create a totally adiabatic isolated system, something if it was possible we would be doing for ages in our northen cities, cities in some of the richest countries in the world like Sweden or Norway, and countries like Canada or Russia where condition are no where as harsh as in  Antarctica and this is not the issue like I said if you want to create biogas, you need bacterial fermentation that beed 35°C.
And btw the only unclaimed area in south pole is this

Which is not as warm as the other areas and very harsh to reach and work on

Ground? what ground ? maybe you missed the part that in winter the ground is under meters dozens of meters in some areas the soil is hundrend of meters and kilometers deep and under ice as hard as rock?

I have to be on lepirates side in this one. All he was saying was that it would be easier to build a base on antarctica than Mars and Bir Tawil. And guess what? He's right! I've never seen him claim that he had all details. And you just seem to be upset that he criticized your Mars plan IMO.

Here are some solutions to all the problems you mention:
1. You can fly the fish over the ice. Also it can be transported over the ice with good machines. Another possibility is to have enough food stored for the winter months.

2. Wind turbines works just fine in cold, as long as they don't get covered in ice. The biggest wind power parks in Sweden is placed in the far north of this northern country. Winters there get extremely cold as well. All that needs to be done are some adjustments for the climate. Wave power generators though will break if they're still in the water when the ice comes. A solution would be to take them up for the winter. Bio gas can absolutely work, placed deep under the ground with some heavy isolation. Add some heat and it will produce. Remember that it's not as cold under the ground. And you came up with a solution as well, to save up a lot of fuel during the summers! That is also a good idea.

3. If it gets to cold it would just be to evacuate the top floor or heat it up even more. Not that complicated.

4. If I understand lepirates posts right his suggestion is to build it in the dry valleys. Which would not be in the unclaimed territory though.



Btw, America does not claim any parts of Antarctica, and doesn't recognize any other countries claims either.

all of this is true but after all the hassle we need to compare positive sides of Mars and Antartica

both need a lot of work, Mars of course needs more since we would need to be self sufficient

but if we put a colony on Mars, we would be on every news on every television, for months, years

updates would be broadcasted worldwide, if we were to establish our own channel and broadcast it on Earth it would be one of the most watched channels

we would bring exposure to bitcoin like no one has ever saw

best advertising there could be!

just think about it..

we would be the first to put man on Mars, the first to establish a colony in outter space

we would be famous, we would skyrocket not only our bitcoinauts but the bitcoins price too

[kuroman]

Good! you'll move the fleet you are just forgetting the thousand of KM of ice forming to get your fish from the edge of water to your station ? using trucks? not happening I'll tell you why with proof if you want to argue about this.

Wind power? your wind tubines won't last a day in the middle of winter it will be completely frozen!, your wave power infrastructure will be destroyed when winter comes (what does happen to water when it freeze? or let me simplify my question what does happen to full bottle of water if you put it in the freezer ?) Biogas, I'm telling you it's not an option I explained this with data, the only logical solution is to get and make huge fuel supply and resupply every summer

The average temperature in winter is around -26° in one of the hottest area there, right, but you build your station to cope with the worst situation or to cope with the average temperature? if you have 2 days of -60° what are you going to do? that's bad design and bad planing. You'll just remove ice? if only it was easy as that....you'll have ice all over the winter remember you have -26° degree average....

Cows can live just fine at 18°C I don't recall saying the opposite, but heating and keeping the temperature at 18 from -40 -30 -20°C is another story, I don't how you still believe that you can create a totally adiabatic isolated system, something if it was possible we would be doing for ages in our northen cities, cities in some of the richest countries in the world like Sweden or Norway, and countries like Canada or Russia where condition are no where as harsh as in  Antarctica and this is not the issue like I said if you want to create biogas, you need bacterial fermentation that beed 35°C.
And btw the only unclaimed area in south pole is this

Which is not as warm as the other areas and very harsh to reach and work on

Ground? what ground ? maybe you missed the part that in winter the ground is under meters dozens of meters in some areas the soil is hundrend of meters and kilometers deep and under ice as hard as rock?

I have to be on lepirates side in this one. All he was saying was that it would be easier to build a base on antarctica than Mars and Bir Tawil. And guess what? He's right! I've never seen him claim that he had all details. And you just seem to be upset that he criticized your Mars plan IMO.

Here are some solutions to all the problems you mention:
1. You can fly the fish over the ice. Also it can be transported over the ice with good machines. Another possibility is to have enough food stored for the winter months.

2. Wind turbines works just fine in cold, as long as they don't get covered in ice. The biggest wind power parks in Sweden is placed in the far north of this northern country. Winters there get extremely cold as well. All that needs to be done are some adjustments for the climate. Wave power generators though will break if they're still in the water when the ice comes. A solution would be to take them up for the winter. Bio gas can absolutely work, placed deep under the ground with some heavy isolation. Add some heat and it will produce. Remember that it's not as cold under the ground. And you came up with a solution as well, to save up a lot of fuel during the summers! That is also a good idea.

3. If it gets to cold it would just be to evacuate the top floor or heat it up even more. Not that complicated.

4. If I understand lepirates posts right his suggestion is to build it in the dry valleys. Which would not be in the unclaimed territory though.



Btw, America does not claim any parts of Antarctica, and doesn't recognize any other countries claims either.

Upset? for what? I just provided prof that it is not easy as he claims and you claim it is, scientific facts, actual data, not just opinions and in our conversation there was not a single mention of BirTawil so I don't understand why you are adding that here, Or rather I do but I'll let you explain your self on that matter

But let's answer the thing you are mentioning here.

1-Planes ? what kind of planes? helicopters on the fishing boats? light planes? heavy planes ?
a-Helicopters, if you assume the best conditions possible a helicopter range would 300-400Km that's no where reaching the base, if you consider the cargo weight, the windy cold conditions and lack of visibility on winter that range is way shorter and I'm sure I mentioned that the ice cap reaches over a thousands KM from the limite of the shore So no.
b-light plane: No for similar reasons once you have your heavy cargo they are going no where
c-Heavy plane: where are going to land it on tiny ice near the water where you are fishing? not happening, also ocean/sea ice doesn't make a smooth surface when frozen you can have ice blocks of several meters everywhere around
Ice vehicles? there are no Ice vehicles that can do such trip, and just to put things into perspective, Top gear prepared a vehicle to reach the 1996 North magnetic pole (which is no where near the physical north pole)  in Summer in perfect weather, took them 3 days to cover 320miles, with no cargo or anything they had a very flexible vehicle yet it took them that long. Winter is another story, for reference of ice cap grow by hundreds and thousands of KM during winter I'll let you image what that power can do to the rest of the environment and how things change on a daily basis

2-Most Sweden win farms are located south of the country proof : http://www.thewindpower.net/country_maps_en_17_sweden.php, Sweden is no where as cold as Antarctica heck there is no room for comparison here, the coldest part in Sweden are hotter in average than the hottest areas in Antarctica.
Here you go average temperature of Sweden cities http://www.sweden.climatemps.com/ the coldest average temperature in the most northern coldest city in Sweden is -2°C you are no where close the -20 -30 -40°C averages you get Antarctica
and for reference here are Stockholm temperature through the year : http://www.holiday-weather.com/stockholm/averages/

3- Yeah sure, you can heat it that's not the problem, the problem is lepirate claims he can be energy sufficient, your fishing boats, planes vehicles heating energy will come from what.....? and Just a reminder in winter (night) you are basically in total isolation due to the harsh conditions.

4-America does not claim any territory true, I think there was a confusion with Australia which claims almost half Antarctica.

Like I said before if it is to challenge once self with almost impossible technical problems why bother with Antarctica, aim high, aim better, and Mars is a much better target.

realistically speaking as I said from the beginning, if you want an unclaimed territory, it would be building an artificial island in international water! that's the only logical solution.
Of course there are other options like direct negotiation with a poor country to have a small slice of the land, but that's another argument which is politically tied, and I'm only discussing the technical stand point here

[blacksails]

Upset? for what? I just provided prof that it is not easy as he claims and you claim it is, scientific facts, actual data, not just opinions and in our conversation there was not a single mention of BirTawil so I don't understand why you are adding that here, Or rather I do but I'll let you explain your self on that matter

But let's answer the thing you are mentioning here.

1-Planes ? what kind of planes? helicopters on the fishing boats? light planes? heavy planes ?
a-Helicopters, if you assume the best conditions possible a helicopter range would 300-400Km that's no where reaching the base, if you consider the cargo weight, the windy cold conditions and lack of visibility on winter that range is way shorter and I'm sure I mentioned that the ice cap reaches over a thousands KM from the limite of the shore So no.
b-light plane: No for similar reasons once you have your heavy cargo they are going no where
c-Heavy plane: where are going to land it on tiny ice near the water where you are fishing? not happening, also ocean/sea ice doesn't make a smooth surface when frozen you can have ice blocks of several meters everywhere around
Ice vehicles? there are no Ice vehicles that can do such trip, and just to put things into perspective, Top gear prepared a vehicle to reach the 1996 North magnetic pole (which is no where near the physical north pole)  in Summer in perfect weather, took them 3 days to cover 320miles, with no cargo or anything they had a very flexible vehicle yet it took them that long. Winter is another story, for reference of ice cap grow by hundreds and thousands of KM during winter I'll let you image what that power can do to the rest of the environment and how things change on a daily basis

2-Most Sweden win farms are located south of the country proof : http://www.thewindpower.net/country_maps_en_17_sweden.php, Sweden is no where as cold as Antarctica heck there is no room for comparison here, the coldest part in Sweden are hotter in average than the hottest areas in Antarctica.
Here you go average temperature of Sweden cities http://www.sweden.climatemps.com/ the coldest average temperature in the most northern coldest city in Sweden is -2°C you are no where close the -20 -30 -40°C averages you get Antarctica
and for reference here are Stockholm temperature through the year : http://www.holiday-weather.com/stockholm/averages/

3- Yeah sure, you can heat it that's not the problem, the problem is lepirate claims he can be energy sufficient, your fishing boats, planes vehicles heating energy will come from what.....? and Just a reminder in winter (night) you are basically in total isolation due to the harsh conditions.

4-America does not claim any territory true, I think there was a confusion with Australia which claims almost half Antarctica.

Like I said before if it is to challenge once self with almost impossible technical problems why bother with Antarctica, aim high, aim better, and Mars is a much better target.

realistically speaking as I said from the beginning, if you want an unclaimed territory, it would be building an artificial island in international water! that's the only logical solution.
Of course there are other options like direct negotiation with a poor country to have a small slice of the land, but that's another argument which is politically tied, and I'm only discussing the technical stand point here

To be fair, lepirate repeatedly said that it would be easier to build on Antarctica than it would be to claim Bir Tawil or colonize Mars. He never claimed that it would be easy though. In fact, he claimed that it would be hard.

I'm not at all interested in discussing all technical details (basically because I'm not really read in on all technicalities), but the fact remains, it would be cheaper and easier to: Build the base, make it inhabitable, find the people willing to live there, make it self-sufficient.
Also, I think lepirate agreed on the artificial island thing earlier in this thread.

all of this is true but after all the hassle we need to compare positive sides of Mars and Antartica

both need a lot of work, Mars of course needs more since we would need to be self sufficient

but if we put a colony on Mars, we would be on every news on every television, for months, years

updates would be broadcasted worldwide, if we were to establish our own channel and broadcast it on Earth it would be one of the most watched channels

we would bring exposure to bitcoin like no one has ever saw

best advertising there could be!

just think about it..

we would be the first to put man on Mars, the first to establish a colony in outter space

we would be famous, we would skyrocket not only our bitcoinauts but the bitcoins price too

Yeah, but remember that once on Mars there's no way back (unless we develop return crafts as well, which would raise the price with a few more billions). Most people running from NSA and IRS will not be willing to do that.
Also, we would not have any use for bitcoins whilst on Mars anyway. There's nothing to buy there, so there would be no use of bitcoins, not even money (depends on the size of the colony).

With those things even the original idea is gone, with its freedom for bitcoiners and weed.
It would be cool with a colony on mars though.

[Pero112]

Upset? for what? I just provided prof that it is not easy as he claims and you claim it is, scientific facts, actual data, not just opinions and in our conversation there was not a single mention of BirTawil so I don't understand why you are adding that here, Or rather I do but I'll let you explain your self on that matter

But let's answer the thing you are mentioning here.

1-Planes ? what kind of planes? helicopters on the fishing boats? light planes? heavy planes ?
a-Helicopters, if you assume the best conditions possible a helicopter range would 300-400Km that's no where reaching the base, if you consider the cargo weight, the windy cold conditions and lack of visibility on winter that range is way shorter and I'm sure I mentioned that the ice cap reaches over a thousands KM from the limite of the shore So no.
b-light plane: No for similar reasons once you have your heavy cargo they are going no where
c-Heavy plane: where are going to land it on tiny ice near the water where you are fishing? not happening, also ocean/sea ice doesn't make a smooth surface when frozen you can have ice blocks of several meters everywhere around
Ice vehicles? there are no Ice vehicles that can do such trip, and just to put things into perspective, Top gear prepared a vehicle to reach the 1996 North magnetic pole (which is no where near the physical north pole)  in Summer in perfect weather, took them 3 days to cover 320miles, with no cargo or anything they had a very flexible vehicle yet it took them that long. Winter is another story, for reference of ice cap grow by hundreds and thousands of KM during winter I'll let you image what that power can do to the rest of the environment and how things change on a daily basis

2-Most Sweden win farms are located south of the country proof : http://www.thewindpower.net/country_maps_en_17_sweden.php, Sweden is no where as cold as Antarctica heck there is no room for comparison here, the coldest part in Sweden are hotter in average than the hottest areas in Antarctica.
Here you go average temperature of Sweden cities http://www.sweden.climatemps.com/ the coldest average temperature in the most northern coldest city in Sweden is -2°C you are no where close the -20 -30 -40°C averages you get Antarctica
and for reference here are Stockholm temperature through the year : http://www.holiday-weather.com/stockholm/averages/

3- Yeah sure, you can heat it that's not the problem, the problem is lepirate claims he can be energy sufficient, your fishing boats, planes vehicles heating energy will come from what.....? and Just a reminder in winter (night) you are basically in total isolation due to the harsh conditions.

4-America does not claim any territory true, I think there was a confusion with Australia which claims almost half Antarctica.

Like I said before if it is to challenge once self with almost impossible technical problems why bother with Antarctica, aim high, aim better, and Mars is a much better target.

realistically speaking as I said from the beginning, if you want an unclaimed territory, it would be building an artificial island in international water! that's the only logical solution.
Of course there are other options like direct negotiation with a poor country to have a small slice of the land, but that's another argument which is politically tied, and I'm only discussing the technical stand point here

To be fair, lepirate repeatedly said that it would be easier to build on Antarctica than it would be to claim Bir Tawil or colonize Mars. He never claimed that it would be easy though. In fact, he claimed that it would be hard.

I'm not at all interested in discussing all technical details (basically because I'm not really read in on all technicalities), but the fact remains, it would be cheaper and easier to: Build the base, make it inhabitable, find the people willing to live there, make it self-sufficient.
Also, I think lepirate agreed on the artificial island thing earlier in this thread.

all of this is true but after all the hassle we need to compare positive sides of Mars and Antartica

both need a lot of work, Mars of course needs more since we would need to be self sufficient

but if we put a colony on Mars, we would be on every news on every television, for months, years

updates would be broadcasted worldwide, if we were to establish our own channel and broadcast it on Earth it would be one of the most watched channels

we would bring exposure to bitcoin like no one has ever saw

best advertising there could be!

just think about it..

we would be the first to put man on Mars, the first to establish a colony in outter space

we would be famous, we would skyrocket not only our bitcoinauts but the bitcoins price too

Yeah, but remember that once on Mars there's no way back (unless we develop return crafts as well, which would raise the price with a few more billions). Most people running from NSA and IRS will not be willing to do that.
Also, we would not have any use for bitcoins whilst on Mars anyway. There's nothing to buy there, so there would be no use of bitcoins, not even money (depends on the size of the colony).

With those things even the original idea is gone, with its freedom for bitcoiners and weed.
It would be cool with a colony on mars though.

why not?

if we become self sufficient we could still pay our workers in bitcoin and they would purchase stuff in bitcoin

we could still grow weed in greenhouses

besides we should start a project of terraformation on Mars, slowly but once it would be filled with oxygen

about the gravity issue on humans

Carbon dioxide sublimation
There is presently enough carbon dioxide (CO2) as ice in the Martian south pole and absorbed by regolith (soil) on Mars that, if sublimated to gas by a climate warming of only a few degrees, would increase the atmospheric pressure to 30 kilopascals (0.30 atm), comparable to the altitude of the peak of Mount Everest, where the atmospheric pressure is 33.7 kilopascals (0.333 atm). Although this would not be breathable by humans, it is above the Armstrong limit and would eliminate the present need for pressure suits. Phytoplankton can also convert dissolved CO2 into oxygen, which is important because Mars's low temperature will, by Henry's law, lead to a high ratio of dissolved CO2 to atmospheric CO2 in the flooded[clarification needed] northern basin.

just warming the planet up a few degrees would make it's pressure same as Mt.Everest making us lose the space suits and walking around with only oxygen bags, something like scooba-diving without water

[bryant.coleman]

Sad to see the discussion drifting away to the dream zone.

The Bir Tawil nation is theoretically possible. If the Egypt and Sudan reaches an understanding about selling the disputed property, then it can be purchased by bitcoiners.

On the other hand, Antarctica should remain outside human interference according to the international treaties. There is no way on earth that the UN is allowing someone to settle there.

[blacksails]

why not?

if we become self sufficient we could still pay our workers in bitcoin and they would purchase stuff in bitcoin

we could still grow weed in greenhouses

besides we should start a project of terraformation on Mars, slowly but once it would be filled with oxygen

But what exactly would they buy with the bitcoins they earn? It's not that easy to trade with the earth. And those that don't earn enough, will they starve, with no other option to just leave and find something better?
And if they don't wanna work anymore, what happens then? Will we just kick them outside the base and let them die?

It also takes a very long time to terraform a planet. Extremely long time. It's also extremely expensive.
This whole project would cost very many billion dollars. And that is money that very few countries and companies can pay, and I'd guess they are not that interested in building a bitcoin paradise (with that delay) and keep it funded when the public has lost interest.

Sad to see the discussion drifting away to the dream zone.

The Bir Tawil nation is theoretically possible. If the Egypt and Sudan reaches an understanding about selling the disputed property, then it can be purchased by bitcoiners.

On the other hand, Antarctica should remain outside human interference according to the international treaties. There is no way on earth that the UN is allowing someone to settle there.

Yeah, but it's very unlikely that they would reach that agreement with todays situation. Also, then we'd have problems with water and food. And to keep the miners cold would be a problem.

I however, would also prefer to see Antarctica untouched.
UN would probably not accept it, but since military is illegal on Antarctica it would be very interesting to see what they would do!

[blacksails]

Carbon dioxide sublimation
There is presently enough carbon dioxide (CO2) as ice in the Martian south pole and absorbed by regolith (soil) on Mars that, if sublimated to gas by a climate warming of only a few degrees, would increase the atmospheric pressure to 30 kilopascals (0.30 atm), comparable to the altitude of the peak of Mount Everest, where the atmospheric pressure is 33.7 kilopascals (0.333 atm). Although this would not be breathable by humans, it is above the Armstrong limit and would eliminate the present need for pressure suits. Phytoplankton can also convert dissolved CO2 into oxygen, which is important because Mars's low temperature will, by Henry's law, lead to a high ratio of dissolved CO2 to atmospheric CO2 in the flooded[clarification needed] northern basin.

just warming the planet up a few degrees would make it's pressure same as Mt.Everest making us lose the space suits and walking around with only oxygen bags, something like scooba-diving without water

Hmm, but it would be quite hard to "just" release enough carbon dioxide into the atmosphere i believe?

[Pero112]

why not?

if we become self sufficient we could still pay our workers in bitcoin and they would purchase stuff in bitcoin

we could still grow weed in greenhouses

besides we should start a project of terraformation on Mars, slowly but once it would be filled with oxygen

But what exactly would they buy with the bitcoins they earn? It's not that easy to trade with the earth. And those that don't earn enough, will they starve, with no other option to just leave and find something better?
And if they don't wanna work anymore, what happens then? Will we just kick them outside the base and let them die?

It also takes a very long time to terraform a planet. Extremely long time. It's also extremely expensive.
This whole project would cost very many billion dollars. And that is money that very few countries and companies can pay, and I'd guess they are not that interested in building a bitcoin paradise (with that delay) and keep it funded when the public has lost interest.

Sad to see the discussion drifting away to the dream zone.

The Bir Tawil nation is theoretically possible. If the Egypt and Sudan reaches an understanding about selling the disputed property, then it can be purchased by bitcoiners.

On the other hand, Antarctica should remain outside human interference according to the international treaties. There is no way on earth that the UN is allowing someone to settle there.

Yeah, but it's very unlikely that they would reach that agreement with todays situation. Also, then we'd have problems with water and food. And to keep the miners cold would be a problem.

I however, would also prefer to see Antarctica untouched.
UN would probably not accept it, but since military is illegal on Antarctica it would be very interesting to see what they would do!

same as on earth, you don't work you don't get any money, simple as that

we would use bitcoins for food,water,other resources we would produce..

and yeah, I'm aware we crossed to the SF part, but it's interesting to see how it is actually possible altough very hard

Carbon dioxide sublimation
There is presently enough carbon dioxide (CO2) as ice in the Martian south pole and absorbed by regolith (soil) on Mars that, if sublimated to gas by a climate warming of only a few degrees, would increase the atmospheric pressure to 30 kilopascals (0.30 atm), comparable to the altitude of the peak of Mount Everest, where the atmospheric pressure is 33.7 kilopascals (0.333 atm). Although this would not be breathable by humans, it is above the Armstrong limit and would eliminate the present need for pressure suits. Phytoplankton can also convert dissolved CO2 into oxygen, which is important because Mars's low temperature will, by Henry's law, lead to a high ratio of dissolved CO2 to atmospheric CO2 in the flooded[clarification needed] northern basin.

just warming the planet up a few degrees would make it's pressure same as Mt.Everest making us lose the space suits and walking around with only oxygen bags, something like scooba-diving without water

Hmm, but it would be quite hard to "just" release enough carbon dioxide into the atmosphere i believe?

we already have plenty of carbon dioxide

https://i.imgur.com/bkOUHmV.png

we just need to create some oxygen or make the athmosphere more earthlike by increasing it's temperature

altough, after what we've done on Earth, warming up the planet shouldn't be a problem

[blacksails]

same as on earth, you don't work you don't get any money, simple as that

we would use bitcoins for food,water,other resources we would produce..

and yeah, I'm aware we crossed to the SF part, but it's interesting to see how it is actually possible altough very hard

we already have plenty of carbon dioxide



we just need to create some oxygen or make the athmosphere more earthlike by increasing it's temperature

altough, after what we've done on Earth, warming up the planet shouldn't be a problem

Yeah, but since they don't have the option to leave they would be trapped and forced to work for their survival. Which would basically mean slavery. And if someone brings lots of money from the earth, would they be freed from the burden of working? Wouldn't it be better to just demand that everyone works for a few hours each day to produce enough food for everyone?

Yeah, but it's not that easy to release all that carbon dioxide...

[Pero112]

same as on earth, you don't work you don't get any money, simple as that

we would use bitcoins for food,water,other resources we would produce..

and yeah, I'm aware we crossed to the SF part, but it's interesting to see how it is actually possible altough very hard

we already have plenty of carbon dioxide

https://i.imgur.com/bkOUHmV.png

we just need to create some oxygen or make the athmosphere more earthlike by increasing it's temperature

altough, after what we've done on Earth, warming up the planet shouldn't be a problem

Yeah, but since they don't have the option to leave they would be trapped and forced to work for their survival. Which would basically mean slavery. And if someone brings lots of money from the earth, would they be freed from the burden of working? Wouldn't it be better to just demand that everyone works for a few hours each day to produce enough food for everyone?

Yeah, but it's not that easy to release all that carbon dioxide...

that is true hm

in the beginning we would probably have to use some communist-like society until we stabilise

well, that's a problem but people who agree to join will join on their own, no one will push them

not being able to leave would be a great motivation for survival too

lots of people would do it for the fame

[bryant.coleman]

Damn... seems like we have some competition:

http://mw.micronation.org/wiki/Associate_State_of_Bir_Tawil

[blacksails]

that is true hm

in the beginning we would probably have to use some communist-like society until we stabilise

well, that's a problem but people who agree to join will join on their own, no one will push them

not being able to leave would be a great motivation for survival too

lots of people would do it for the fame

Yeah, I think that's the best to start with. When the population and the colony have grown and they can start doing non-survival things it can go capitalistic or something.

People that does it for fame are usually not capable of seeing long term consequences of their actions, and they are not often willing to work hard for their survival either… So those are probably not the best candidates for this colonization project…

Damn... seems like we have some competition:

http://mw.micronation.org/wiki/Associate_State_of_Bir_Tawil

Lol, and Antarctica is also claimed anyway (by multiple micronations!):
http://mw.micronation.org/wiki/Federated_States_of_Antarctica
http://mw.micronation.org/wiki/State_of_the_People_of_West_Antarctica
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Westarctica

[bryant.coleman]

Lol, and Antarctica is also claimed anyway (by multiple micronations!):
http://mw.micronation.org/wiki/Federated_States_of_Antarctica
http://mw.micronation.org/wiki/State_of_the_People_of_West_Antarctica
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Westarctica

Many of these little known micro-nations exists only on paper. How many serious attempts were there? May be less than a dozen. The Principality of Sealand was a serious venture. Some of the projects, such as the Operation Atlantis and the Republic of Minerva failed miserably. Principality of Freedonia is more or less defunct now.

[supernovax]

Carbon dioxide sublimation
There is presently enough carbon dioxide (CO2) as ice in the Martian south pole and absorbed by regolith (soil) on Mars that, if sublimated to gas by a climate warming of only a few degrees, would increase the atmospheric pressure to 30 kilopascals (0.30 atm), comparable to the altitude of the peak of Mount Everest, where the atmospheric pressure is 33.7 kilopascals (0.333 atm). Although this would not be breathable by humans, it is above the Armstrong limit and would eliminate the present need for pressure suits. Phytoplankton can also convert dissolved CO2 into oxygen, which is important because Mars's low temperature will, by Henry's law, lead to a high ratio of dissolved CO2 to atmospheric CO2 in the flooded[clarification needed] northern basin.

just warming the planet up a few degrees would make it's pressure same as Mt.Everest making us lose the space suits and walking around with only oxygen bags, something like scooba-diving without water

Hmm, but it would be quite hard to "just" release enough carbon dioxide into the atmosphere i believe?

There are some global warming agents a million times more potent than carbon dioxide. It would take a few years if we use those compounds.


If we keep mining asteroids and bring it to mars perhaps in the future mars would develop a magnetic field again. Those asteroids contain mostly of irons and nickel that can make a magnetic field.

[kuroman]

To be fair, lepirate repeatedly said that it would be easier to build on Antarctica than it would be to claim Bir Tawil or colonize Mars. He never claimed that it would be easy though. In fact, he claimed that it would be hard.

I'm not at all interested in discussing all technical details (basically because I'm not really read in on all technicalities), but the fact remains, it would be cheaper and easier to: Build the base, make it inhabitable, find the people willing to live there, make it self-sufficient.
Also, I think lepirate agreed on the artificial island thing earlier in this thread.

He clearly said it was easy until faced with facts, and change his stance from easy to easier than .
How can you say it would cheaper and easier without even getting proper solutions, lets just put things into perspective here which important here:
his plan is to be build an independent nation/area where a group of people can live independently from other countries, not only politically independent but in almost every domain, aka energy independent, supply independent ect ect achieving such a think is no easier than going to Mars and this was my whole argument.

How can talk about facts if you can't talk about technical challenges and cost related to those challenges it is not logical by any mean.

Now if you want to have a station on Antartica for a small group of people (a dozen of person) that will not live there permanantly (to this day Antarctica has 0 permanant habitant for reference) and that you'll be supplying from the outside world all the time sure that's much much cheaper and technically less challenging than going to Mars, this goes without saying, but the other thing that goes without saying, is what's the point in this case.

Yeah, but remember that once on Mars there's no way back (unless we develop return crafts as well, which would raise the price with a few more billions). Most people running from NSA and IRS will not be willing to do that.
Also, we would not have any use for bitcoins whilst on Mars anyway. There's nothing to buy there, so there would be no use of bitcoins, not even money (depends on the size of the colony).

With those things even the original idea is gone, with its freedom for bitcoiners and weed.
It would be cool with a colony on mars though.

No way back? you just take your space craft to get you back with or even send it before hand <.< , euh hello Apollo program, the challenge of getting of Mars is much easier than lifting of earth due to the low gravity, and the heaviest thing in a space craft is fuel, and you can create rocket fuel on Mars surface while carying minimum of chemicals that are not easly available/produceable on Mars.

There is no doubt that such project will cost billions of $ I'm sure I mentioned this, but anything related to owning own land and nation would cost as much, unless it is very small

[kuroman]

Sad to see the discussion drifting away to the dream zone.

The Bir Tawil nation is theoretically possible. If the Egypt and Sudan reaches an understanding about selling the disputed property, then it can be purchased by bitcoiners.

On the other hand, Antarctica should remain outside human interference according to the international treaties. There is no way on earth that the UN is allowing someone to settle there.

Anything related to making own country independent area is in the dream zone right now, just that some plans are more viable than others but either neither the whole Bitcoin market cap or it political influence can do such a thing

[Pero112]

Damn... seems like we have some competition:

http://mw.micronation.org/wiki/Associate_State_of_Bir_Tawil

they're competition only on paper

To be fair, lepirate repeatedly said that it would be easier to build on Antarctica than it would be to claim Bir Tawil or colonize Mars. He never claimed that it would be easy though. In fact, he claimed that it would be hard.

I'm not at all interested in discussing all technical details (basically because I'm not really read in on all technicalities), but the fact remains, it would be cheaper and easier to: Build the base, make it inhabitable, find the people willing to live there, make it self-sufficient.
Also, I think lepirate agreed on the artificial island thing earlier in this thread.

He clearly said it was easy until faced with facts, and change his stance from easy to easier than .
How can you say it would cheaper and easier without even getting proper solutions, lets just put things into perspective here which important here:
his plan is to be build an independent nation/area where a group of people can live independently from other countries, not only politically independent but in almost every domain, aka energy independent, supply independent ect ect achieving such a think is no easier than going to Mars and this was my whole argument.

How can talk about facts if you can't talk about technical challenges and cost related to those challenges it is not logical by any mean.

Now if you want to have a station on Antartica for a small group of people (a dozen of person) that will not live there permanantly (to this day Antarctica has 0 permanant habitant for reference) and that you'll be supplying from the outside world all the time sure that's much much cheaper and technically less challenging than going to Mars, this goes without saying, but the other thing that goes without saying, is what's the point in this case.

Yeah, but remember that once on Mars there's no way back (unless we develop return crafts as well, which would raise the price with a few more billions). Most people running from NSA and IRS will not be willing to do that.
Also, we would not have any use for bitcoins whilst on Mars anyway. There's nothing to buy there, so there would be no use of bitcoins, not even money (depends on the size of the colony).

With those things even the original idea is gone, with its freedom for bitcoiners and weed.
It would be cool with a colony on mars though.

No way back? you just take your space craft to get you back with or even send it before hand <.< , euh hello Apollo program, the challenge of getting of Mars is much easier than lifting of earth due to the low gravity, and the heaviest thing in a space craft is fuel, and you can create rocket fuel on Mars surface while carying minimum of chemicals that are not easly available/produceable on Mars.

There is no doubt that such project will cost billions of $ I'm sure I mentioned this, but anything related to owning own land and nation would cost as much, unless it is very small

we started discussing Mars too much, we should create a new thread about it..

someone else do it, I have to wait 6 minutes after posting this lol

this thread is about Bir Tawil, let's not mix stuff up too much

[kuroman]

we started discussing Mars too much, we should create a new thread about it..

someone else do it, I have to wait 6 minutes after posting this lol

this thread is about Bir Tawil, let's not mix stuff up too much

it is indeed, but I think Bir Tawil was answered, from my perspective, the geopolitical tensions in that region will render any attempt impossible, not to mention as I mentioned before, the region is full of pirates, and separatist (Somali is split in two right now) ect ect, I think that bitcoin should gain political and lobying power in several nations but I believe that woudn't happen with current market cap but if bitcoin get past the 10K point things will become more interesting

[bryant.coleman]

it is indeed, but I think Bir Tawil was answered, from my perspective, the geopolitical tensions in that region will render any attempt impossible, not to mention as I mentioned before, the region is full of pirates, and separatist (Somali is split in two right now) ect ect, I think that bitcoin should gain political and lobying power in several nations but I believe that woudn't happen with current market cap but if bitcoin get past the 10K point things will become more interesting

Bir Tawil is full of pirates? It has no sea coast and Somalia is far away. There are no humans there with the exception of the Egyptian soldiers. The easiest way to establish a Bitcoin nation might be in Bir Tawil.