[18 GH][0% Fee] A1BITCOINPOOL.COM 20 BTC BONUS PROPORTIONAL POOL

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

http://www.a1bitcoinpool.com/images/a1logo.png


Introducing A1 Bitcoin Mining Pool!
http://www.A1BitcoinPool.com

Pool Specs
Featuring Proportional Payout System with 0% Fee
High speed server with i7 Quad Core CPU & 8 GB Ram
Super fast pool back end running the incredibly efficient java based PoolserverJ RC7
including its Local WorkMaker Engine with gives work at up to 10X Faster than Traditional Bitcoin RPC
Less then .20 % stales

Payout system information
The proportional payout system has recently become very controversial due to the fact that it is possible for pool hoppers to exploit the system and increase their profits, possibly at the expense of other miners.

Proportional payouts are the first payout system ever used in a Bitcoin pool and are still being used today including by the famous Deepbit.

Although there are other payout options available to miners and mining pools that are much less exploitable, proportional payouts are still in demand by some miners and it is currently the only payout system that we offer.

For more detailed information on all the payout systems available to mining pools including proportional - please follow this link:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_pool_reward_FAQle

We believe it should be your choice to pick the pool and the type of payout system you want to use, please use the information available to become acquainted with Proportional payouts, by mining at our pool we assume that you understand how payouts work and that you are willingly choosing to mine Proportional despite the potential for someone to exploit it.

We want you to be informed and most of all we want you to mine with us because you want to - we do not want anyone to ever feel like they were tricked or scammed, that is not what we are about.

History of A1BitcoinPool.com
I have always dreamed of running my own Bitcoin pool, Unfortunately I am not a programmer but through the help of some friends and opensource software I was able to realize this dream.

My first attempt at starting a pool was TNTMining.com, There were a lot of mistakes made at TNTMining.com due to my inexperience and that inexperience showed. TNTMining quickly failed and was taken off line.
Any miner who submitted any substantial amount of shares at TNTMining.com was paid for their mining even though no blocks were solved at all, I did not want anyone to feel like they were short changed.

Although TNTMining.com was a failure I still wanted to give it one more try,  so I came up with the idea of A1BitcoinPool.com, I made some changes like putting it on a faster server, and changed the way the site looks and operates. The reason I changed the name was because I wanted a fresh start, it was never about a scam I just did not want the baggage from TNTMining sinking A1BitcoinPool before it even starts, a lot of people throw around the word scammer but the fact of the matter is not a single person can say I have ever scammed them in any way, and I know if you give me and my pool a chance you will see that I am honest and a great person to work with.

So please give us a chance and come mine with us and if there is constructive criticism any one has on how I can make improvements - I am always listening!

http://btcwebhost.com/logos/cleaner-btc-logo.png
Most of all above everything else I LOVE BITCOIN and I wanted to do something to contribute to it.


So come MINE WITH US ! The First Confirmed Block finder gets a 20 BTC Bonus !

A1 Bitcoin Mining Pool - http://www.A1BitcoinPool.com
 0% FEE - PLAIN AND SIMPLE PROP PAYOUTS
 email a1bitcoinpool@gmail.com

[our logo is a complete rip off from A1 Sauce, its supposed to be a joke - lighten up!]
 

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[A1BITCOINPOOL]

Sorry everyone not sure what happen to my last thread, it kind of vanished so I had to repost it.  Thanks.

[sadpandatech]

Heya, just posting to say I have mined for this OP in the past and was always paid out as agreed upon.

I'm currently pointing 4 miners at him to try and break that first block ice. Join in, I promise you wont contract any venereal diseases...

Derek

[martychubbs]

I am having connection issues, high rejects...  Anyone having the same experience?

[sadpandatech]

I am having connection issues, high rejects...  Anyone having the same experience?

none here, m8. try pinging a few places and the pool?

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

Nobody else has complained about connection issues.  Not sure why you are having this issue.

[Inaba]

I can't connect, but I suppose that's cause I'm banned. derp.

[martychubbs]

Nobody else has complained about connection issues.  Not sure why you are having this issue.

I'll keep an eye on it and see if it continues...

I can't connect, but I suppose that's cause I'm banned. derp.

Inaba, would you be nice and not give the op a hard time?  I would love to share the block with you, as well as your insight.   I am also a member of your pool...  

A1, the hash-power is needed and forgiveness is a value of mine. So as a member, I hope you let him back on.

Pool Ops - Please let the market decide where hashs should go, it will always pick the most efficient pools.  Live and let live...

Members and Pool Ops don't like to mine with jerkoffs, it is one of the 100 truths of Bitcoin. I am working on 99 more truths I learned the hardway...

TNTmining failed cause the payment system changed without notice...I think the lesson was learned.

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

Come mine with us, the 10 BTC prize is still up for grabs.  

[dirtycat]

ill give it a whirl!

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

Thanks,  hopefully we get a winner soon. 

[BCMan]

 Infamous Deepbit? What's up with Deepbit?

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

Not sure what you mean. 

[BCMan]

 I'm also not sure what you mean. Why infamous? It has a bad reputation or something?

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

Thanks for pointing that out,  I changed it.

[sadpandatech]

Still 10BTC there up for gabs just for finding the first block..

gogogo =)

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

I just increased the first block bonus to 13 BTC.  Come help us solve that first block and get a 13 BTC Bonus.  Best deal out there.  

[dirtycat]

This is exciting.. hope I get it! ha ha

[P4man]

Im mining here with a single rig, because more pools=better IMO and so Ill help with the first block.

But Ill be honest, it makes no sense. The proportional payout is a non starter. There is a reason nearly all other pools changed to different systems.

I joined in when you were over 1.5M shares already. Now its at 1.8M and there is no way I can make a profit. Either this will be a long block and Ill lose because of it, or it will be found shortly, and Ill lose because of the proportional payout to all the "smart" miners who have already stopped mining there. I guess the best I can hope for is that the first block is found asap, minimizing my loss. Then Ill do what everyone else with a clue will do: Ill keep mining the second block until you get to a ~40% CDF.

Bounties are not changing anything here. Its not sustainable, and pool hoppers would have equal chances to win the bounty anyway, on top of improving their per share payout significantly by jumping ship at the right moment. 10BTC bonus on a 50BTC blocks is also "only" 20%. Pool hopping will gain you more than that, or put differently, the ones that dont hop risk losing more than that. You cant blame hoppers either. Or you can if you like, but its not going to change a thing.

[martychubbs]

Bounty rewards encourage block completion, and I think it is just a promo. Also, hopping doesn't produce rewards greater than 20%...on average, or just maybe cause I suck...

I think hopping is just something to do while we all watch for the pot to boil.

Pool hash rate is 18 GH, if it were all hoppers, it would be donuts, baby...  So, hoppers mix up variables so that they can help complete rounds or avoid what everyone else is doing...

Mine late and be the first to snag a share on the the new block!

Otherwise, you are right...

[Inaba]

There's a common misconception about the rationalization of hopping as "helping to complete a block."  The number of miners attacking a block does not change your chances of solving a block.  It's still 1 in 1.25 million or so at the current difficulty.  Whether you have 10 people or 100 people mining, your chances are still the same.  Each share has a 1 in 1.25 million chance of solving the block.

The *only* thing hoppers do, other than enriching themselves, is reduce the income of people mining past ~40%.  There is absolutely no added benefit to hoppers on a pool.  When they are there in the start of the round, if you find a block, they are like any other miner.  When they leave after ~40%, they take them them an additional profit not realized by the miners who stay.  They add no positive benefit to the pool.

[P4man]

Bounty rewards encourage block completion, and I think it is just a promo. Also, hopping doesn't produce rewards greater than 20%...on average, or just maybe cause I suck...

If you have an infinite number of pools to hop, you can theoretically double your rewards. IIRC hopping just one pool delivers up to ~20% better returns. That means -20% for people not hopping (assuming equal hash rate).

Pool hash rate is 18 GH, if it were all hoppers, it would be donuts, baby...  

Already most of the proofs are delivered by miners no longer mining there. ringking, 2pair, rastapool. Hoppers. Cant blame them.

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

Inaba, I know that your pool runs DGM, and I'm really not to familiar withat pay system,  but I have mined before at other pools that have this payment system in place and noticed that at the beginning of a round the hash rate soars and after a while slows down.  I have mined at some of these pools for a while and wasn't getting the expected return.   Could have that just been bad luck or is dgm not completely hop proof.  

[Inaba]

DGM is completely hop proof.  There are only two pool that have DGM.   EMC and OzCoin.  The only other one that was around closed up shop (and OzCoin is now running their software) so either you mined on EMC or on OzCoin/yourbtc.  If you mined elsewhere, you did not mine on a DGM pool.  While I can't speak for OzCoin, I can speak for EMC and the hashrate does not change at the start of a round much to speak of on EMC.  Even if it did, there is no benefit (or drawback) to hopping a DGM pool - you simply get paid a fair reward for what you put in.

[P4man]

Pool is down.

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

Sorry everyone trying to figure out what knocked the pool offline.  Working on trying to get back up.  Thanks for your patience.

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

The backend is up and working and logging shares.  You can still mine and everything is being recorded.  I am having an issue with getting website backup.  Working on that right now.  Thanks for your patience.

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

Everything is up and running again.  Sorry for the delay.  All your mined shares were recorded so no one missed out on anything.  Thanks for your patience.

Due to the outage I added 2 more bitcoin to the first block bonus for a total of 15 BTC.



EDIT :  Just took pool down again,  switching it to a faster server.  Will be back up shortly.  1/24/11 3:02 PM CENTRAL.

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

Ok everyone we are back online now I was having all kinds of issues with the server this morning and have switched to a faster dedicated rack mount server with dual quad core xeon cpus, 16 gb of ram and a 10tb uplink.  So going forward we should be up and running with no issues.  All shares are recorded and current.  Thanks for your patience.  The 15 BTC bonus still stands.  

[P4man]

I wonder, are you beginning to see the folly of proportional? You are having a long first block, that can happen in any payout system obviously. But who in their right minds would start mining here now? The shares you produce will be diluted by 3M existing shares on this block. Ignoring the bounty (which you can not sustain), every sane person would be waiting for the block to finish, and then join in for the next round, until it becomes longish. Its gonna be like that every time.

[organofcorti]

If you have an infinite number of pools to hop, you can theoretically double your rewards. IIRC hopping just one pool delivers up to ~20% better returns.

Enough pools to hop so you never need to use a fair pool: expected efficiency of ~178% (or 179%? can't remember).

Hop 1 pool and mine at a fair pool when not hopping: expected efficiency of 128% (28% better returns)

That means -20% for people not hopping (assuming equal hash rate).

That 20% (or 28%) is a mix of hopping and non hopping efficiency. The actual loss due to hoppers is tricky to calculate but I posted the results of some simulations here and the loss to full time miners at a particular pool due to hoppers is determine by the number of hoppers increasing the pool hashrate. Increase an 18Ghps pool's hashrate by 36Ghps for the first 0.43*D of a round and fulltime miners will have a reduction in expected earnings of 20%. Increase the hopper effect more - say 180Ghps like in the old days - and you're looking at about a 40% reduction in earnings for fulltime miners.

It's way worse than you'd think.

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

What payment system do you prefer.

[Inaba]

LNPPS, PPS or DGM.  Although, given your situation, I would very seriously advise against PPS, as it is the most brutal to the op.

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

Your probably right on the pps especially with a first block like this one.  What are your thoughts on PPLNS. 

[Inaba]

I'm obviously of the DGM persuasion and I know very little beyond the basics of PPLNS.  I know Meni has done the math behind it and supports it as a valid, non-hoppable variety of payout schemes.  As such, I trust his judgement in those matters far beyond my own.

PPLNS is probably a lot easier to implement than DGM I would imagine.

[sadpandatech]

At the risk of sounding lazy, what is DGM and do you have a link I can read up on it?

[Inaba]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=39497.0

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

Ok miners,  I just raised the block Bonus to 20 BTC.  Be the first to mine a confirmed Block and you shall recieve the 20 BTC Prize. 

[P4man]

Assume I have 1000GH. If I were to point it to your pool, and have an average block lenght, I would earn 20BTC bounty + my share of the block reward which would be (1.3/ 1.3+ 3.1) = 14.7 BTC. Total reward, 34.7 BTC.

Do you think Id go for it, or mine solo?

[sadpandatech]

Assume I have 1000GH. If I were to point it to your pool, and have an average block lenght, I would earn 20BTC bounty + my share of the block reward which would be (1.3/ 1.3+ 3.1) = 14.7 BTC. Total reward, 34.7 BTC.

Do you think Id go for it, or mine solo?

ur math, explain it please.





Mustang, at this point I would pay out everyone for their shares. Reset the pool and offer 10BTC bonus to the block finder who is there from the start of round, or very close to it without leaving. And that of course would not mean having 20Gh, then leaving only 200MH there after they got x shares.

Or pay out, reset and move to pps or DGM. Offer like 5BTC bonuc per block for the first 3 or 4.

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

Assume I have 1000GH. If I were to point it to your pool, and have an average block lenght, I would earn 20BTC bounty + my share of the block reward which would be (1.3/ 1.3+ 3.1) = 14.7 BTC. Total reward, 34.7 BTC.

Do you think Id go for it, or mine solo?

I understand what you are saying but the way I'm looking at it is if someone starts mining and gets the block pretty quick then it is a pretty decent bonus.  But once again it all falls to luck.  I'm working on a possible change,  I want to get this first block completed and go from there.  Inaba was totally right about proportional, everyone jumps in and then jumps out. 

[P4man]

Actually, I told you . Although its entirely possible Inaba said the same thing elsewhere, its not exactly new or rocketscience.

And unfortunately your reasoning is still flawed. Its not luck, its math. Someone finding a quick block would be far better off finding it solo. And someone with a low hashrate, who is unlikely to find a block solo, would have to feel incredibly lucky because he will be very likely to get far less than he'd get anywhere else. He too would be better off solo.

Anyway; there isnt much you can do. Only upping the bounty to 35 BTC would make it compelling again. Shows you how much there is to win from pool hopping.

[sadpandatech]

I got a quick fix for you. Anyone that drops off more than 10% of their starting mining power for more than x time. drop their shares. period. the only people that will put off is the hoppers.

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

What type of pool do you like to mine at?

[sadpandatech]

What type of pool do you like to mine at?

Me?  Because of my fairly low hash rate(1.3GHs atleast for a little while longer) I prefer PPS.

[Inaba]

I'm sure he's referring to this thread.  The mods apparently did something with his other threads for some reason.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=58879.0

I understand the psychological need to finish the block, but you need to weigh that against the hard numbers.  You're better off cutting your losses now and not falling into the Gamblers Fallacy.  It's a hard road to hoe, as far as overcoming it psychologically, but let the math be your guide.

[sadpandatech]

Actually, I would prefer Prop. If it were not for the hopping thing, you have that little gambling itch covered where finding blocks quick, pays better.... I would probably only do that if I had 5GH+ at present dif though.

[organofcorti]

There was a Russian pool that did a gambling thing that was fair. Nothing wrong a with a gambling payout system as long as it's transparent and can't be gamed.

There's an idea for you A1BITCOINPOOL - use a payout system that gives a slightly random payout. Eg, start with PPLNS but base the payout on 40btc instead of 50. Then split the remaining 10 btc among ten random miners. You have fair payouts with some luck involved. I'm not sure if this would work with DGM.

[Inaba]

It could, just set the block reward to 40 instead of 50 and DGM should be fine.

[organofcorti]

So you just don't include the other 10btc distributed randomly then? Won't that have an effect on the overall score?

[Inaba]

Not if it's in perpetuity.  Are you talking about a one time thing?

[organofcorti]

No, I imagine it would have to be ongoing. You just wouldn't be able to change the proportion of btc for the gamble, but that's no deal breaker.

[Inaba]

Right, so it would be fine for DGM to use a $block_reward = 40 instead of 50...

But now that I think about it, even if you changed the block reward it wouldn't matter. The score is independent of the block reward, it just divides up whatever you feed it as the reward appropriately, according to contribution.


Heh... you could even random(1, 50) the block reward, then award whatever isn't doled out to a lucky participant(s).

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

I'm probably going to switch to pplns.  I was thinking about making n= 1/2 of the difficulty, or is that the high for n.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I got a quick fix for you. Anyone that drops off more than 10% of their starting mining power for more than x time. drop their shares. period. the only people that will put off is the hoppers.

And anyone who loses connectivity, power outage, mining crash while they are at work.

There are proven hop proof solutions.  Instead of methods which punish non-hoppers why not just use a solution which is ... and call me crazy ... actually hop proof like PPS, PPLNS, SMPSS (and varaints) and DGM?

[organofcorti]

I like n=1. Good balance of time to payout and variance. But DGM is much more configurable, and with a few pools ops now with lots of experience, and with the inventor (Meni Rosenfeld) being an active forum member, you should be able to get a bunch of advice and maybe even help.

My advice:  whichever system you choose, don't change payout methods mid round

[DeathAndTaxes]

I'm probably going to switch to pplns.  I was thinking about making n= 1/2 of the difficulty, or is that the high for n.

I believe that is a rather low n.  Most use n=difficulty.  Larger n smooths out the variance but it also can seem "unfair" to a new user.  It isn't but I believe that is why an n=1 is commonly used.  Still n= 0.5 is still hop proof just be aware that a significant number of rounds will go unpaid.  Nobody loses anything but the variance can be "rocky".

Also I agree with the post above.  Meni likely knows more about mining math, reward systems, and mining exploits than any 20 people I know.  He has an ebook which covers every reward methods with pros, cons, simulations, analysis, and lots of math.  It should be required reading for any pool op.

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

Thanks for the information, I will give at least a one round notice.

[Inaba]

Err... n=1=solo mining.  n=0.5 would be... umm, kind of impossible I think?  A share is atomic.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Err... n=1=solo mining.  n=0.5 would be... umm, kind of impossible I think?  A share is atomic.

Sorry n=1*difficulty,  n=0.5*difficulty.

[organofcorti]

Err... n=1=solo mining.  n=0.5 would be... umm, kind of impossible I think?  A share is atomic.

I think mostly people use the N in PPLNS as shorthand for N*D shares, not N shares.

[sadpandatech]

I got a quick fix for you. Anyone that drops off more than 10% of their starting mining power for more than x time. drop their shares. period. the only people that will put off is the hoppers.

And anyone who loses connectivity, power outage, mining crash while they are at work.

yea, yea. I knew that someone wold come and say that. Guess that's what I get for not spelling it out..

How often does someone who has enough hash rate to hop profitably really have any significant downtime? A safe measure is adjusting the % of hash rate tolerance and the time tolerance. We also have the benefit of having a human checking such things. I'd like to think the pool op would not punish his highest hashers if they had a situation that would trigger a drop of their shares. It would be pretty obvious if the same person just happened to have 'problems' several times in a row after acquiring the optimal shares.

yes, other options require less human interaction. But prop pays for luck, and if it can be made to work then it is worth it imho.

[organofcorti]

How often does someone who has enough hash rate to hop profitably really have any significant downtime?n it is worth it imho.

Hop profitably or mine on a pool profitably. If you really meant 'hop', I don't understand what you're saying. Which probably says more about me than you, but still - erklären Sie mir bitte?

[DeathAndTaxes]

How often does someone who has enough hash rate to hop profitably really have any significant downtime? A safe measure is adjusting the % of hash rate tolerance and the time tolerance. We also have the benefit of having a human checking such things. I'd like to think the pool op would not punish his highest hashers if they had a situation that would trigger a drop of their shares. It would be pretty obvious if the same person just happened to have 'problems' several times in a row after acquiring the optimal shares.

So totally subjective human checking.  Yeah that would be a pool I would never use.

PPS, PPLNS, SMPPS = guaranteed hop proof AND doesn't punish miners who disconnect.
scheme full of human subjective fail = not guaranteed hop proof AND punishes miners AND subject to misuse and abuse.

Also luck = variance.  PPLNS has just as much variance as prop thus in the short run luck plays just as much of a factor in payouts.  So it "rewards" luck just as much as prop does.  Of course thinking a pool is superior based on luck is dubious.  This isn't a single hand of blackjack this is billions of shares per year.  It all evens out anyways. 

There is absolutely no purpose for prop to exist under any circumstances except to give the uninformed, clueless, and stupid the "option" of getting rapped by hoppers who annihilate their earnings.

[organofcorti]

..... of getting rapped by hoppers.....

Or hopped by rappers! Ahha ha haa! Ahem. :sigh:

Sorry about that.

[sadpandatech]

How often does someone who has enough hash rate to hop profitably really have any significant downtime?n it is worth it imho.

Hop profitably or mine on a pool profitably. If you really meant 'hop', I don't understand what you're saying. Which probably says more about me than you, but still - erklären Sie mir bitte?

die Welt kann nie wissen! well, atleast what the heck I'm babbling about, anyhows. ;p

Hop profitability; for instance someone with 200MH is not going to get enough shares before x%(40%?) of current difficulty shares to make it worth moving to another pool on prop. Someone much more proficient at the math would have to explain it better. But the jist is that on proportional unless you are one of the highest hash rates at the pool you lose your butt big time after the top hashers move on.
I'm not sure if that's what you were asking or if that is the only part I had not described very well though.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Hop profitability; for instance someone with 200MH is not going to get enough shares before x%(40%?) of current difficulty shares to make it worth moving to another pool on prop.

That is wrong.

[P4man]

I understand the psychological need to finish the block, but you need to weigh that against the hard numbers.  You're better off cutting your losses now and not falling into the Gamblers Fallacy. 

And just screw everyone that produced those 3+M shares?  Im sure that will ensure a loyal following.

[organofcorti]

Hop profitability; for instance someone with 200MH is not going to get enough shares before x%(40%?) of current difficulty shares to make it worth moving to another pool on prop.

That is wrong.

Yep. You get whatever your proportion of the overall hashrate is times the hopper efficiency increase. Eg a 200Mhps hopper on a 20Ghps pool will get a reward of 0.2/20*1.6*50btc instead of 0.2/20*50btc (1.6 is a typical real world hopper efficiency increase for a round).

The expected efficiency increase due to hopping is does not change when average hashrate changes.

[sadpandatech]

I understand the psychological need to finish the block, but you need to weigh that against the hard numbers.  You're better off cutting your losses now and not falling into the Gamblers Fallacy. 

And just screw everyone that produced those 3+M shares?  Im sure that will ensure a loyal following.

where did he suggest that?

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

Inaba suggested that,   I'm going to wait till after the round.  It wouldn't be fair to do it midround.

[Inaba]

I was not implying that at all.  I am saying do whatever is required to cut your losses on this round and switch.  If that means paying out the current shares as PPS and ending the round, then do it. 

Just because you are at 3M+ shares now doesn't mean a block is hitting soon... it could go another 2 shares or another 9 million shares.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I was not implying that at all.  I am saying do whatever is required to cut your losses on this round and switch.  If that means paying out the current shares as PPS and ending the round, then do it. 

Just because you are at 3M+ shares now doesn't mean a block is hitting soon... it could go another 2 shares or another 9 million shares.

PPS would be expensive and not necessary.
He could just pay 50 Btc split prop w/ no bonus and award the bonus on first real block

[dirtycat]

Inaba suggested that,   I'm going to wait till after the round.  It wouldn't be fair to do it midround.

if this round ever ends

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

Tell me about it. It just keeps going and going and going and going and going and going.

[P4man]

Which of course has nothing to do with the length of the block (expressed in shares).
That said, it seems the pool operator, who has the largest hashrate, is only mining part time on his own pool. Not that I blame him, it just shows that he himself realizes proportional is madness for unlucky blocks.

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

Im staying mostly off because I wanna let someone else get the 20 btc bonus other then me.  Also at the end of the round I'm going to PPLNS to make it more fair.  Luck just is sucking real bad right now.

[Meni Rosenfeld]

I'm probably going to switch to pplns.  I was thinking about making n= 1/2 of the difficulty, or is that the high for n.

I didn't post anything in this thread so far, because I thought the OP here was pretty forthcoming and I didn't want to give you a hard time. But... Seriously? You start one pool with proportional. Everyone tells you that's wrong. You switch to PPLNS. You start another pool with proportional. Everyone tells you that's wrong. You say you've learned from your mistakes from the first pool and stand behind your decision for proportional. And now you switch to PPLNS again? WTF?

PPS, PPLNS, SMPPS = guaranteed hop proof AND doesn't punish miners who disconnect.

SMPPS is not hopping-proof, and it has very serious problems regardless of whether one calls it hopping-proof or not.

I'm obviously of the DGM persuasion and I know very little beyond the basics of PPLNS.  I know Meni has done the math behind it and supports it as a valid, non-hoppable variety of payout schemes.  As such, I trust his judgement in those matters far beyond my own.

PPLNS is probably a lot easier to implement than DGM I would imagine.

I should point out that that PPLNS has several variants, the naive variant which is what people usually refer to is approximately hopping-proof, but not completely. The hopping-proof variant I stand behind is what I call unit-PPLNS, which I think might be nontrivial to implement. Another good variant is shift-PPLNS, which can be made hopping-proof without too much trouble, and is suitable for a parallel architecture. But even the naive variant is much, much better than proportional.

Right, so it would be fine for DGM to use a $block_reward = 40 instead of 50...

But now that I think about it, even if you changed the block reward it wouldn't matter. The score is independent of the block reward, it just divides up whatever you feed it as the reward appropriately, according to contribution.

I don't know how it's currently implemented in EMC but the accurate implementation is to use the block reward when calculating the score to award a worker for a submitted share.

You can set block reward to 40 and hand out the rest in some other way. It's possible to change the jackpot value but you need to sum it up correctly.

Actually, I would prefer Prop. If it were not for the hopping thing, you have that little gambling itch covered where finding blocks quick, pays better.... I would probably only do that if I had 5GH+ at present dif though.

Hopping-proof methods like DGM and PPLNS depend on the pool's luck, so you can have your gambling cravings satisfied. And, the choice between PPLNS and PPS has nothing at all to do with your own hashrate - variance in PPLNS depends on the pool's hashrate, not your own.

Attempts to patch proportional by penalizing disconnections do not work. They do very little against hoppers, and can punish honest miners.

[sadpandatech]

And, the choice between PPLNS and PPS has nothing at all to do with your own hashrate

I agree with everything but this. Ony in that you misquoted me. It was not pplns verse pps. It was Prop verse pps. And the reason for only really wanting to do it with atleast x amount of hash rate is just that for me the 'difficulty/luck gambling' is not worth it if I only have .1%(as example) of total hash power. Because on lucky rounds, which is what I'd be gambling for, my take would not be enough to make it worth the risk on long rounds.  I know the math formula does not change for having more hash rate but on extremely short rounds, the variance time in individual shares combined with a low hash rate adds up. I've tested it before hopping was cool.

Derek

[Inaba]

I should have been more specific in that statement.  When I said it was independent of the block reward, I meant that the block reward can be anything, it doesn't depend on it being 50 BTC. 

[Meni Rosenfeld]

And, the choice between PPLNS and PPS has nothing at all to do with your own hashrate

I agree with everything but this. Ony in that you misquoted me. It was not pplns verse pps. It was Prop verse pps. And the reason for only really wanting to do it with atleast x amount of hash rate is just that for me the 'difficulty/luck gambling' is not worth it if I only have .1%(as example) of total hash power. Because on lucky rounds, which is what I'd be gambling for, my take would not be enough to make it worth the risk on long rounds.  I know the math formula does not change for having more hash rate but on extremely short rounds, the variance time in individual shares combined with a low hash rate adds up. I've tested it before hopping was cool.

Derek

I referred to PPLNS because proportional is indefensible, and I wanted to give a comparison regarding the gambling aspect between two valid options.

There's no "the math formula". Different things have different formulas. You are entitled to wanting a gambling aspects to your mining, and you can have formulas for what your bet will look like. But based on your other posts I think you are confused about how your hashrate affects your mining prospects. In particular, note that if your hashrate is low, the chance that you will not submit any shares in a short round and thus miss out on a jackpot, is completely offset by the fact that you could find more shares than average in a short round and win an even bigger jackpot. There is no reduction in expected payout per share for having low hashrate, only higher variance (which you might consider good if you like gambling).

[legolouman]

Almost 3.5 Million shares, and yet the block drags on.

YEAH OH YEAH, THE BLOCK GOES ON... Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[sadpandatech]

And, the choice between PPLNS and PPS has nothing at all to do with your own hashrate

I agree with everything but this. Ony in that you misquoted me. It was not pplns verse pps. It was Prop verse pps. And the reason for only really wanting to do it with atleast x amount of hash rate is just that for me the 'difficulty/luck gambling' is not worth it if I only have .1%(as example) of total hash power. Because on lucky rounds, which is what I'd be gambling for, my take would not be enough to make it worth the risk on long rounds.  I know the math formula does not change for having more hash rate but on extremely short rounds, the variance time in individual shares combined with a low hash rate adds up. I've tested it before hopping was cool.

Derek

I referred to PPLNS because proportional is indefensible, and I wanted to give a comparison regarding the gambling aspect between two valid options.

There's no "the math formula".

you are still misquoting me in order to make your point... I was refering to THE math formula that would be in affect for x hasrate on prop and nothing else.

[Meni Rosenfeld]

you are still misquoting me in order to make your point... I was refering to THE math formula that would be in affect for x hasrate on prop and nothing else.

You are still falsely accusing me of things.

The formula for what? For expected reward? For variance? For the probability that you will get more than 5 BTC reward in a block? For when there are no hoppers? For when everyone else are hoppers?

I'll assume you meant "the formula for expected payout per share in a proportional pool when there are no hoppers". Yeah, this one doesn't change according to your hashrate. If you clarify what it is you want, we can find a formula for that.

[rjk]

So I dumped some hashes here, and the "top 30 lifetime shares" didn't change. It should have gone up a bit for my username.

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

I'm having an issue with lifetime shares and working on fixing them.  If you login your share total for the round is under the pool total. 

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

5:13pm Central.  Site may be down right now,  currently repairing lifetime share issue, and fixing some other stat problems.  Miners can resume mining as stats are still being logged.  Thanks.

6:50 pm Central.  Everything is back up and running.  Lifetime share are updating again.  Happy Mining. 

[martychubbs]

My apologies eckmar for some reason I thought your pool was proportional.  Thanks for the explanation.

Dude it is PPLNS, you will loose shares if you hop here, and why do you care about this pool?  aren't you mining at you own pool?  Or why would you when you are scamming you members?  Just create a proxy and hop, but tell your members, please.  Also, it doesn't seem like you know what you are doing so I would be very scared to trust you hopping for me? PM me and I will help you for a fee...

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

My apologies eckmar for some reason I thought your pool was proportional.  Thanks for the explanation.

Dude it is PPLNS, you will loose shares if you hop here, and why do you care about this pool?  aren't you mining at you own pool?  Or why would you when you are scamming you members?  Just create a proxy and hop, but tell your members, please.  Also, it doesn't seem like you know what you are doing so I would be very scared to trust you hopping for me? PM me and I will help you for a fee...

I did actually mine before I started my pool. 

[martychubbs]

My apologies eckmar for some reason I thought your pool was proportional.  Thanks for the explanation.

Dude it is PPLNS, you will loose shares if you hop here, and why do you care about this pool?  aren't you mining at you own pool?  Or why would you when you are scamming you members?  Just create a proxy and hop, but tell your members, please.  Also, it doesn't seem like you know what you are doing so I would be very scared to trust you hopping for me? PM me and I will help you for a fee...

I did actually mine before I started my pool.  

OK, I am not a hater.  Just been having a crabby day.  Find a block and we are cool again!

Fix this please http://www.a1bitcoinpool.com/api.php and show your share count, hash rate and round duration in JSON.  I'll do the rest...  

[AniceInovation]

I have this problem with the front end: during 10 seconds it works fine, after that a single refresh takes like 2 minutes, than it works fine for 10 seconds, another lag of 2 minutes...
Does this happen to anyone else?

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

My server guys is going to take a look into this tommorrow. 

[legolouman]

I have this problem with the front end: during 10 seconds it works fine, after that a single refresh takes like 2 minutes, than it works fine for 10 seconds, another lag of 2 minutes...
Does this happen to anyone else?

I've noticed that myself. I found that it helped for a few minutes to switch to the low bandwidth version.

[dirtycat]

I have this problem with the front end: during 10 seconds it works fine, after that a single refresh takes like 2 minutes, than it works fine for 10 seconds, another lag of 2 minutes...
Does this happen to anyone else?

I've noticed that myself. I found that it helped for a few minutes to switch to the low bandwidth version.

even then it takes 2+ minutes to get to the low bandwidth version lol

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

Sorry guys, new pool lots of kinks to work out. 

[P4man]

lets hope there isnt a kink in the block finding algorithm

[dirtycat]

everything down?

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

All shares getting recorded we are fixing the issues with the pool pages taking forever to load. Thanks for your patience.

[legolouman]

lets hope there isnt a kink in the block finding algorithm

I've been wondering that for like a week. It should not take this long to find a block, good OR bad luck.

[AniceInovation]

Slush had a 9M block not long ago... But if this one gets to 10M i would advise the pool OP to take a good look at the code.

[legolouman]

Slush had a 9M block not long ago... But if this one gets to 10M i would advise the pool OP to take a good look at the code.

No one take this the wrong way, but my understanding is that OP is a little inexperienced. If it hits 10M, I'll get scared.

[P4man]

I've been wondering that for like a week. It should not take this long to find a block, good OR bad luck.

There is no upper limit to how long it can take to mine a block. He's at what, 7M now? Thats bad luck, but not extraordinarily so.  Assuming it is bad luck and not bad programming, thats always the worry with a new pool and a long first block.

Anyway, I dont see the point of continuing this. It would make more sense to just pay it out and switch to PPLNS asap, so perhaps people want to join without being paid 120% PPS.

[AniceInovation]

The front end is fixed

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

Sorry we are still working on fixing the load time on the web pages.

[legolouman]

I've been wondering that for like a week. It should not take this long to find a block, good OR bad luck.

There is no upper limit to how long it can take to mine a block. He's at what, 7M now? Thats bad luck, but not extraordinarily so.  Assuming it is bad luck and not bad programming, thats always the worry with a new pool and a long first block.

Anyway, I dont see the point of continuing this. It would make more sense to just pay it out and switch to PPLNS asap, so perhaps people want to join without being paid 120% PPS.

True. Either way, I love this pool to death, so I'm going to roll with it. He's done a great job staying on top of things, and keeping everything running as smooth as possible. Not to mention, being a small pool, I feel I'm doing my part for the community.

[AniceInovation]

Slush just had a 11 hour, 12 MILLION block.

We are only 5M shares away

[martychubbs]

Slush just had a 11 hour, 12 MILLION block.

We are only 5M shares away

On the first block too, kinda sucks, but, what if we knock off second and third block on 500k each...  A1 will take a victory lap!

[P4man]

True. Either way, I love this pool to death, so I'm going to roll with it. He's done a great job staying on top of things, and keeping everything running as smooth as possible. Not to mention, being a small pool, I feel I'm doing my part for the community.

I admire your persistence. But have you done the math on how much the shares you submit now are being rewarded? You are mining at 19% PPS. That makes deepbits ~90% PPS look like the bargain of the century.
The poolhoppers and anyone that has contributed shares early on thank you for the continued effort.

 I sure hope you catch that jackpot...

[martychubbs]

True. Either way, I love this pool to death, so I'm going to roll with it. He's done a great job staying on top of things, and keeping everything running as smooth as possible. Not to mention, being a small pool, I feel I'm doing my part for the community.

I admire your persistence. But have you done the math on how much the shares you submit now are being rewarded? You are mining at 19% PPS. That makes deepbits ~90% PPS look like the bargain of the century.
The poolhoppers and anyone that has contributed shares early on thank you for the continued effort.

 I sure hope you catch that jackpot...

The people who took the PPS should be paid out of A1 pocket, I thought, in order to find a block.  Paying 120% to find a block and 20 btc to the block finder, shows A1 is really committed to mining a second block.  My shares are all prop and 7 million sucks...  So, I hope I get a better shot on round 2. 

This is what inspires our persistence “But resist, we much… we must… and we will much… about… that… be committed.” – Al Sharpton, August 9, 2011

[bronan]

About block size i think there is no limit on how many shares a block can be
We saw last time ozcoin hitting 21 million or something and they had earlier also several huge 12 million+ btc blocks in the paste so ..... 7m is bad and nasty but it can be much bigger as been proven
Now do not get me wrong i do not like those big ones one bit and i think maybe there should be a max possible blocksize somehow
But i fear its not going to happen, you either am lucky or on each round  ...

[P4man]

The people who took the PPS should be paid out of A1 pocket, I thought, in order to find a block.

 

Yeah, I assume the fast miners there now took that option. But paying 120% to find a block also doesnt make a lot of sense for the pool. Thats why I suggested he cut his losses, and pays out this block even if its not found, and switches to a payout system that can attract new miners without having to pay them 120%. If the bad luck continues that 120% PPS and possibly 20 BTC  bounty might end up more expensive than paying a one time 50BTC learning fee while delaying his pool from taking off.

[Inaba]

Didn't I say that two weeks ago?  Yeah...

I understand the psychological need to finish the block, but you need to weigh that against the hard numbers.  You're better off cutting your losses now and not falling into the Gamblers Fallacy.  It's a hard road to hoe, as far as overcoming it psychologically, but let the math be your guide.

Cut your losses.

[martychubbs]

The people who took the PPS should be paid out of A1 pocket, I thought, in order to find a block.

 

Yeah, I assume the fast miners there now took that option. But paying 120% to find a block also doesnt make a lot of sense for the pool. Thats why I suggested he cut his losses, and pays out this block even if its not found, and switches to a payout system that can attract new miners without having to pay them 120%. If the bad luck continues that 120% PPS and possibly 20 BTC  bounty might end up more expensive than paying a one time 50BTC learning fee while delaying his pool from taking off.

Why would he cut his losses, "build it and they will come?" He is running a prop pool and a long round is expected.  Once he finds a block the miners will return and some may stay on to finish the block, charity hopping is a feature to hop with.  See, more hoppers have access to his pool now, but have been hesitant to hop due to TNTmining,his all to good to be true quest to get his first block, and most people got in later in the block, like you.  I really think he wants to run a pool and has been looking to shoulder the cost of doing so.  He is a hopper too and wants to run a prop pool, so I can see why he would do this (he is CrAzY.)

P4, you know it was a prop pool, you gave hashes.  If you want less stress, why not go back to you favorite PPLNS pool and focus on miner efficiency and optimization?  You are free to mine anywhere, unless you come from a PPLNS pool and want to maximize your return.  I am on your side until you try and change the pool to suit your mining preference.  I choose EMC/Oz/BP for backups cause they have to type of pool I need, plus has MM (and love, love you guys.)  Hope you understand, cause I hop, just suck at it.

Advice, best way to save miners is to create a fair pool of your own and you will attract miners that favor your arguments.  Then I will post on your thread that your miners should ask you for a prop pool cause they can do better! Not really...just venting.  It still is a free country, starting revolutions will make us all less free.

[martychubbs]

Didn't I say that two weeks ago?  Yeah...

I understand the psychological need to finish the block, but you need to weigh that against the hard numbers.  You're better off cutting your losses now and not falling into the Gamblers Fallacy.  It's a hard road to hoe, as far as overcoming it psychologically, but let the math be your guide.

Cut your losses.

That would be too rational! 

[DeathAndTaxes]

The people who took the PPS should be paid out of A1 pocket, I thought, in order to find a block.

 

Yeah, I assume the fast miners there now took that option. But paying 120% to find a block also doesnt make a lot of sense for the pool. Thats why I suggested he cut his losses, and pays out this block even if its not found, and switches to a payout system that can attract new miners without having to pay them 120%. If the bad luck continues that 120% PPS and possibly 20 BTC  bounty might end up more expensive than paying a one time 50BTC learning fee while delaying his pool from taking off.

Why would he cut his losses? He is running a prop pool and a long round is expected.  Once he finds a block the miners will return and some may stay on to finish the block, charity hopping is a feature to hop with.  See, more hoppers have access to his pool now, but have been hesitant to hop due to TNTmining,his all to good to be true quest to get his first block, and most people got in later in the block, like you.  I really think he wants to run a pool and has been looking to shoulder the cost of doing so.  He is a hopper too and wants to run a prop pool, so I can see why he would do this.

You are aware he will be changing the reward method to PPLNS after this block?
You are aware nobody will hop into a pool where the value for the "next share" is now 80% less than PPS?

Hope you understand, cause I hop, just suck at it.

Um that is like saying I am a bad miner because I am not good bad grades in Calculus.  The hop points are determined by the mining software.  There is no skill.

[martychubbs]

You are aware he will be changing the reward method to PPLNS after this block?
You are aware nobody will hop into a pool where the value for the "next share" is now 80% less than PPS?

Hope you understand, cause I hop, just suck at it.

Um that is like saying I am a bad miner because I am not good bad grades in Calculus.  The hop points are determined by the mining software.  There is no skill.

You are aware he will be changing the reward method to PPLNS after this block?

No, i didn't know...that would be stupid, now I feel stupid.

Um that is like saying I am a bad miner because I am not good bad grades in Calculus.  The hop points are determined by the mining software.  There is no skill.

There is skill, otherwise everyone would do it and not condemn what they don't understand.  And I did really good in calculus...I understand how it hopping works...I don't see the correlation...

A1, is he just having a laugh at my expense?

[P4man]

 I choose EMC/Oz/BP for backups cause they have to type of pool I need, plus has MM (and love, love you guys.)  Hope you understand, cause I hop, just suck at it.

You dont seem to understand what is meant by hopping; hopping doesnt mean switching pools whenever you feel like it. Hopping in this context means joining a proportional pool at the beginning of a new block and leave at the latest at 47% CDF. Doing so increases your profits substantially at the expense of people that dont hop, taking maximum advantage of lucky short blocks without suffering nearly as much on long blocks. You might begin to understand that if you calculate your current reward per share, why its smart to avoid that.

The other pools you mention are not proportional, they all use hop proof payout mechanisms. That means you can join or leave whenever you want without impacting your average reward, because your payout is not based on (known) past luck but (unknown) future luck.

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

UPDATE:  We are still working on fixing the loading issue of the pages.  The websites offline but your shares are still being counted.  Thanks for your patience. 

[dirtycat]

i was gonna keep mining here.. but.. wayyyyyy tooooo long for a block.

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

Our system was hacked last night.  As soon as I can get the data payments will go out.

[martychubbs]

I choose EMC/Oz/BP for backups cause they have to type of pool I need, plus has MM (and love, love you guys.)  Hope you understand, cause I hop, just suck at it.

You dont seem to understand what is meant by hopping; hopping doesnt mean switching pools whenever you feel like it. Hopping in this context means joining a proportional pool at the beginning of a new block and leave at the latest at 47% CDF. Doing so increases your profits substantially at the expense of people that dont hop, taking maximum advantage of lucky short blocks without suffering nearly as much on long blocks. You might begin to understand that if you calculate your current reward per share, why its smart to avoid that.

The other pools you mention are not proportional, they all use hop proof payout mechanisms. That means you can join or leave whenever you want without impacting your average reward, because your payout is not based on (known) past luck but (unknown) future luck.

P4, hate to say it but you don't have a clear understanding of hopping, either.  Where does a hopper go if they can't mine a prop pool from  start to 43.5% (47%?)?  If I am a hopper, why would I go to "The other pools you mention are not proportional, they all use hop proof payout mechanisms?"  Do they know I am a hopper?   Hopping is not only the traditional 0-43.5% in one pool and then doing something magical until the next block is found, it truly allows the miner to control where and how they spend their hashing power.  The theoretical best you can do is 128%, but pools that take 3-4 months to find a block, delay or fake stats, and penalize for hopping make 128% unrealistic...  Hopping returns are not cumulative, it just allows a miner to mine at a higher efficiency when the opportunity is available.  My advice: Learn it, try it, love it...  then crap all over the prop pools you join with hopping folklore.

[P4man]

P4, hate to say it but you don't have a clear understanding of hopping, either.  Where does a hopper go if they can't mine a prop pool from  start to 43.5% (47%?)?

Is that a question?  Well doh, you go to any PPS or hop proof pool and make 100% PPS like anyone else mining there, until you get another opportunity to hop prop pools. Doh.

The theoretical best you can do is 128%,

If you only hope ONE pool.

[martychubbs]

P4, hate to say it but you don't have a clear understanding of hopping, either.  Where does a hopper go if they can't mine a prop pool from  start to 43.5% (47%?)?

Is that a question?  Well doh, you go to any PPS or hop proof pool and make 100% PPS like anyone else mining there, until you get another opportunity to hop prop pools. Doh.

The theoretical best you can do is 128%,

If you only hope ONE pool.

Really, prove it!  What happens if you hop more than one?  School me?

Think about opportunity cost and the current universe of prop pools, not including Score. (oh and how do you determine that hop point?).  Make sure to address that in your elaborate proof.

[martychubbs]

Our system was hacked last night.  As soon as I can get the data payments will go out.

Is the pool coming back on line as a prop pool?  You still have data on the prop block?

Also, are you are getting hacked atm?

[legolouman]

Our system was hacked last night.  As soon as I can get the data payments will go out.

Is the pool coming back on line as a prop pool?  You still have data on the prop block?

Also, are you are getting hacked atm?

Getting that error myself.

[DeathAndTaxes]

P4, hate to say it but you don't have a clear understanding of hopping, either.  Where does a hopper go if they can't mine a prop pool from  start to 43.5% (47%?)?  If I am a hopper, why would I go to "The other pools you mention are not proportional, they all use hop proof payout mechanisms?"  Do they know I am a hopper?   Hopping is not only the traditional 0-43.5% in one pool and then doing something magical until the next block is found, it truly allows the miner to control where and how they spend their hashing power.  The theoretical best you can do is 128%, but pools that take 3-4 months to find a block, delay or fake stats, and penalize for hopping make 128% unrealistic...  Hopping returns are not cumulative, it just allows a miner to mine at a higher efficiency when the opportunity is available.  My advice: Learn it, try it, love it...  then crap all over the prop pools you join with hopping folklore.

Simple. When no pool has greater than 100% PPS return based on hopping algorithm and current round length the hopper falls back to a fair pool.


So when there are 1 or more pools which are currently yielding >100% PPS (they are before the hop-out point):
hopper mines at the pool with greatest value > 100% PPS

when no pools are hoppable (all prop pools are after hop point and thus reward < 100% PPS)
hopper mines at a fair pool

[P4man]

DnT, he had me fooled too, but martychubbs is just trolling and crying as he sees the last prop pools slowly disappear.

[Meni Rosenfeld]

P4, hate to say it but you don't have a clear understanding of hopping, either.  Where does a hopper go if they can't mine a prop pool from  start to 43.5% (47%?)?

Is that a question?  Well doh, you go to any PPS or hop proof pool and make 100% PPS like anyone else mining there, until you get another opportunity to hop prop pools. Doh.

The theoretical best you can do is 128%,

If you only hope ONE pool.

Really, prove it!  What happens if you hop more than one?  School me?

Think about opportunity cost and the current universe of prop pools, not including Score. (oh and how do you determine that hop point?).  Make sure to address that in your elaborate proof.

Analysis of Bitcoin Pooled Mining Reward Systems, Appendix B (Pool-hopping in proportional pools). There's no limit to how much you can gain under the right conditions.

By the way, "anti-hopping measures" by bitcoinpool et al are a joke. Deepbit's stats hiding isn't that effective either.

[martychubbs]

P4, hate to say it but you don't have a clear understanding of hopping, either.  Where does a hopper go if they can't mine a prop pool from  start to 43.5% (47%?)?

Is that a question?  Well doh, you go to any PPS or hop proof pool and make 100% PPS like anyone else mining there, until you get another opportunity to hop prop pools. Doh.

The theoretical best you can do is 128%,

If you only hope ONE pool.

Really, prove it!  What happens if you hop more than one?  School me?

Think about opportunity cost and the current universe of prop pools, not including Score. (oh and how do you determine that hop point?).  Make sure to address that in your elaborate proof.

Analysis of Bitcoin Pooled Mining Reward Systems, Appendix B (Pool-hopping in proportional pools). There's no limit to how much you can gain under the right conditions.

In theory, but with the current number of pools? Don't think so...you can mine at every pool at the best time...I consider it the opportunity cost of mining with in the current universe of prop pools.

What about PPLNS as a backup pool? Would a hopper be be better off in a less variable reward system like PPS to maintain higher efficiency, as opposed to the less popular mining strategy of less efficiency?

[legolouman]

P4, hate to say it but you don't have a clear understanding of hopping, either.  Where does a hopper go if they can't mine a prop pool from  start to 43.5% (47%?)?

Is that a question?  Well doh, you go to any PPS or hop proof pool and make 100% PPS like anyone else mining there, until you get another opportunity to hop prop pools. Doh.

The theoretical best you can do is 128%,

If you only hope ONE pool.

Really, prove it!  What happens if you hop more than one?  School me?

Think about opportunity cost and the current universe of prop pools, not including Score. (oh and how do you determine that hop point?).  Make sure to address that in your elaborate proof.

Analysis of Bitcoin Pooled Mining Reward Systems, Appendix B (Pool-hopping in proportional pools). There's no limit to how much you can gain under the right conditions.

In theory, but with the current number of pools? Don't think so...you can mine at every pool at the best time...I consider it the opportunity cost of mining with in the current universe of prop pools.

What about PPLNS as a backup pool? Would a hopper be be better off in a less variable reward system like PPS to maintain higher efficiency, as opposed to the less popular mining strategy of less efficiency?

You guys wouldn't mind trying to get a bit closer to topic, would you?

[DeathAndTaxes]

In theory, but with the current number of pools? Don't think so...you can mine at every pool at the best time...I consider it the opportunity cost of mining with in the current universe of prop pools.

What opportunity cost?  Worst case scenario no pool is ever below the hop point (impossible) so you always are mining on fallback pool an thus "only" earn 100% PPS value.  Oh noes I "only" get full fair value.  Anytime any one of the prop pools is below the hop point you are earning higher than 100% PPS value. 

So the lower bound under the theoretical and non-existent scenario that no pools is below the hop point is 100% PPS.
The upper bound w/ just 1 hoppable pool is 128% PPS.  With 5 or 6 pools is closer to 200%.

What about PPLNS as a backup pool? Would a hopper be be better off in a less variable reward system like PPS to maintain higher efficiency, as opposed to the less popular mining strategy of less efficiency?

I thought you said profits from hoping were only theoretical.  Variance doesn't matter to anyone except idiots who "need" a reward ever couple hours.  Expected value is expected value and over the long run a PPLNS pools with lower fees than a PPS pool will have a higher expected value.  Given there are PPLNS pools w/ no fees and merged mining the expected value can be ~101% PPS.

[martychubbs]

In theory, but with the current number of pools? Don't think so...you can mine at every pool at the best time...I consider it the opportunity cost of mining with in the current universe of prop pools.

What opportunity cost?  Worst case scenario no pool is ever below the hop point (impossible) so you always are mining on fallback pool an thus "only" earn 100% PPS value.  Oh noes I "only" get full fair value.  Anytime any one of the prop pools is below the hop point you are earning higher than 100% PPS value. 

So the lower bound under the theoretical and non-existent scenario that no pools is below the hop point is 100% PPS.
The upper bound w/ just 1 hoppable pool is 128% PPS.  With 5 or 6 pools is closer to 200%.

What about PPLNS as a backup pool? Would a hopper be be better off in a less variable reward system like PPS to maintain higher efficiency, as opposed to the less popular mining strategy of less efficiency?

I thought you said profits from hoping were only theoretical.  Variance doesn't matter to anyone except idiots who "need" a reward ever couple hours.  Expected value is expected value and over the long run a PPLNS pools with lower fees than a PPS pool will have a higher expected value.  Given there are PPLNS pools w/ no fees and merged mining the expected value can be ~101% PPS.

DT - Sorry the question was for Meni Rosenfeld, who designed PPLNS.  You are not an expert on PPLNS and he is, sorry bro.  Your reading comprehension is not good as expressed by this statement "I thought you said profits from hoping were only theoretical."  BTW, if you haven't figured it out by now, I know the details of hopping...better than you I think..?  And the more you and a few others try and help me out with responses to my sarcastic, loaded questions, about hopping, the more it shows you don't completely understand hopping concepts enough to teach us something new on a prop pool thread...who is trolling who? Please go to this mythical non-p2p 0% MM pool and work on their thread? Kidding, I love the debate and I always enjoy to learn something new.   Really, I try to provided a educated balance to your arguments...sprinkled with humor and whit (bite lip please)  Go back and read my posts and you will see "I thought you said profits from hoping were only theoretical." was...in fact...retarded and we are all now dumber for reading it.

See, goat and I are telling you and your assumption are not as extreme as you state.  Probably,  since you have very limited experience with hopping or have not analyzed the real returns from it.  Output from simulations are more favorable than in production.  Also, goat has given another testimonial on his total efficiency.

AFAIK PPLNS is good for 24/7 miners, everything else can be used by a hopper to achieve maximum efficiency.  I would still like to hear from MR, since you can't provide more insight due to you poor reading comprehension...sorry

This is a prop pool that encurages hopping, so what is the topic?  Should we all just whine that the pool might not recover?

Mt. Red is 100% MM PPS... ~101% by your calculation...

[bulanula]

Yeah. I like how you guys keep on blabbing about the payment system when it seems the OP has gone and left lots of unpaid shares

Hope he does give me the 0.92775905 BTC I am owed after he manages to recover that hacked database.

[martychubbs]

chubby going head to head with DandT...  I wonder who is going to win this...


Chubby you are a long time hopper but you don't know what the fuck is going on... You starting claiming 5 different services where hopping with out even reading the OP in the respected thread.

I control 300G and I hop pools that are normally 50G on average. Some of these pools get 700G of other hoppers coming in. WTF do you think I'm under 128%?  I hit under 100% cuz of bad luck and that can happen anytime. Looking at a number that happened only in one week on these conditions is not the rule.

You could hop 15 pools that each had 42 million shares rounds and lose your ass.. Shit can happen...

I don't think we disagree?  and you were hopping on a grand scale, which is awesome.  I just had a problem calling a proxy and mining pool, that is all my friend.  And I am wrong a lot...right just sometimes so I like to defend my arguments until I end up being wrong, again.

"Chubby you are a long time hopper but you don't know what the fuck is going on... "  Really?  I covered why your returns can be lower than theoretical not to long ago.  Again, I appreciate your honesty and testimonials cause it also supports my experiences...and I haven't been doing it that long...just been making mistakes and learning as I go.  Unless the pool is over 50 GB, like you prefer, it can take months for payout based on a few hours of mining.  And there far less than 15 prop pools to keep you that busy, so when two pools are in the hop range, you can only mine one or average the two...and the opportunity mine multiple pools consecutively keeps shrinking, not growing.  Everything I find or figure out, I share with you and other peers...not sure what you use to hop, so I made an assumption  So, I am no expert, but clueless?  Come on bro...



DandT misquoted me and I made a spectacle of it, that was all...this is a forum...and I am looking for enough posts to do the cool banner stuff...

[martychubbs]

Yeah. I like how you guys keep on blabbing about the payment system when it seems the OP has gone and left lots of unpaid shares

Hope he does give me the 0.92775905 BTC I am owed after he manages to recover that hacked database.

Amen Bro!  But I have given A1 enough grief...waiting to see how it plays out...  point well taken!  Maybe he will notice his pools thread is really active...

You need to hire the paper boy in "Better Off Dead" to get your $5.  You'll net $3!

[bulanula]

@ chubs

I never called my service a pool.

i hop on a "grand scale" for the lulz. p2p for the win.

a1 is not this guys first pool. he worked with cablepair before and that pool was a fail...

reading the OP of a thread you attack is just being reasonable.

Yeah. I too have established a link with cablepair ( by other means ; I did not know that he had a former failed pool till later on etc. ) and I hope that he will eventually pay me those BTC, even if it is not much.

I feel integrity matters much more than a mere 5 bucks. Losing your reputation over 5 bucks is worthy of a facepalm. 

[DeathAndTaxes]

chubby going head to head with DandT...  I wonder who is going to win this...

No reason to continue the conversation with someone who lacks either the knowledge to make the debate interesting or the willingness to learn to make it worthwhile.  I will let him believe what he wants to.

All of his logical fallacies boil down to an inability to understand the difference between variance and expected return.  It is possible for simultaneously hopping to provide a significant increase to expected return AND have variance make measuring that difficulty in the short term.

He even thought your statement about variance over 1 week was some kind of evidence that hopping has reduced real world returns.  

Honestly it isn't worth the time.  He knows everything and anyone who disagrees has less experience than him.

[martychubbs]

@ chubs

I never called my service a pool.

i hop on a "grand scale" for the lulz. p2p for the win.

a1 is not this guys first pool. he worked with cablepair before and that pool was a fail...

reading the OP of a thread you attack is just being reasonable.

My title was "Contracts or PPS payouts greater than 100% are pool hopping with your hashes!" which was true for you, however, you weren't addressing it in your thread...which I read.  Also, you have PPS in your title, which I took as a reward system for mining a block ala thought you were a pool or was concerned others may assume.  (see https://bitcoil.co.il/pool_analysis.pdf, 2.2 Pay-per-share (PPS)) to see that your nomenclature is misleading, hence, I forced a clarification.  I have been pretty consistent with my reasoning, and a tad irresponsible, but I am very imperfect.  Plus,  we both suspect a few others of doing so, now, where was I irresponsible?  GPUMAX? Yes...but a user was using a contract in that way...but not really applicable to my argument or had to do with P@40.  Moreover, I don't care! I just wanted the anti-hop miners to know what, I speculated, was indeed happening.  

If we have bad blood, I understand...but I still think we are on the same side?

"p2p for the win."  Since you don't get credit for not completing a "p2p share" by hopping out and it is PPLNS, are you getting 100% on btc or mining nmc proportionality, cause there is no true MM on p2p?  Tried it, that is what I found, now not doing so.  But, A1 prop otherwise... and I slice A1... still...sometimes... :0

[A1BITCOINPOOL]

Update:  We are still working on trying to undo what the hacker did.  I will pay everyone once we get up and running again.  Thanks for your patience.

[martychubbs]

chubby going head to head with DandT...  I wonder who is going to win this...

All of his logical fallacies boil down to an inability to understand the difference between variance and expected return.  It is possible for simultaneously hopping to provide a significant increase to expected return AND have variance make measuring that difficulty in the short term.

He even thought your statement about variance over 1 week was some kind of evidence that hopping has reduced real world returns.  

Honestly it isn't worth the time.  He knows everything and anyone who disagrees has less experience than him.

On this, you are wrong!  That is my only argument...the truth...

"It is possible for simultaneously hopping"  How can you mine two pools at the sometime?  Even slicing, which I think  is confusing you, mines a slice here and there (multiple pools) but in consecutive slices and not lowest share count always wins.  You can only use your hash power one share on one pool at a time.

"He even thought your statement about variance over 1 week was some kind of evidence that hopping has reduced real world returns"  where is the quote?  That is apple and oranges... variance and evidence of hopping?  Really?  Your reading comprehension is not as good as your math...sorry...I am sure you are a great guy, but please be more specific or maybe not complain about hoping on a prop thread that encourages hopping...who is the troll?

"He knows everything and anyone who disagrees has less experience than him."  Sorry, I am interesting in talking shop about hopping on a prop thread or stating "I don't understand the current payment strategy," which A1 and answered directly.  It is not a pissing contest, just tell me something that makes sense, can be proved, or state a correction in that fashion.

"chubby going head to head with DandT...  I wonder who is going to win this..."  IF we are keeping count, you haven't returned the ball yet...:0 (kidding, lighten up)  I don't think I am smarter than you, just looking for a rational argument and you have to admit "It is possible for simultaneously hopping" was a poor choice of words and would, in effect, multiply your hash rate.  But, that is not hopping and you can't mine in parallel...agree?  I think you meant mine prop pools consecutively?  Seriously, from real world experiences and the current universe of true (not scored) prop pools, it is not nearly enough hopping opportunity to reach to make that a significant of a difference, like  175% -200% averages?

si·mul·ta·ne·ous  (sml-tn-s, sml-)
adj.
1. Happening, existing, or done at the same time.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/simultaneously

Keeping score: DT said "What opportunity cost?  Worst case scenario no pool is ever below the hop point (impossible)"  Goat, think you ever use a back up pool? Very possible! Plus, only one pool offers 100% PPS with 0% fee...MT. Red and just started offering it.  I do agree that mining multiple pools in your hopper, (not http://blockchain.info, hehe) your efficiency will increase,  but not nearly like you "think!" +1

Don't be so lazy DnT...could have just looked it up:

opportunity cost
n
(Economics) Economics the benefit that could have been gained from an alternative use of the same resource

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/opportunity+cost

oh, you were thinking you could mine in parallel...   +1

 

[rjk]

The Deja Vu. It is so strong right now. Every 3-4 months this happens. I remember the last time DeathAndTaxes kicked some hopper ass with logic and numbers, and he must be preparing his counter-assault now...

[martychubbs]

The Deja Vu. It is so strong right now. Every 3-4 months this happens. I remember the last time DeathAndTaxes kicked some hopper ass with logic and numbers, and he must be preparing his counter-assault now...

Funny... you read "All of his logical fallacies boil down to an inability to understand the difference between variance and expected return.  It is possible for simultaneously hopping to provide a significant increase to expected return AND have variance make measuring that difficulty in the short term." and think  DeathAndTaxes kicked some hopper ass with logic and numbers...

Read the last part "...increase to expected return AND have variance make measuring that difficulty in the short term." and read this:

"Although expected return is the best estimate available of future returns, the actual return is not likely to equal the expected return. For this reason, investors and managers would like to have an idea of how precise their estimate might be. To help quantify the precision of their estimates, you use two concepts: variance and its square root, the standard deviation.

Most people are risk averse, in that they wish to minimize the amount of risk they must endure to earn a certain level of expected return. If investors were indifferent to risk, they would not be influenced by the differences between stock A and stock B above, whereas the risk-averse investor would clearly prefer stock A. Therefore, most people want to know the range, or dispersion, of possible outcomes, as well as the likelihood of certain outcomes occurring....(so you can learn to) calculate the variance of an expected return." http://ci.columbia.edu/ci/premba_test/c0332/s6/s6_4.html

Also I know, a pools speed is inversely related to it variance...and slow pools are risky (high variance)...that is why hoppers penalize those pools while hopping.  Which will cause a miner to spend the most time in  low variance faster pools.

Now read once again "simultaneously hopping to provide a significant increase to expected return AND have variance make measuring that difficulty in the short term."  If you easily get confused, that is not the clue that logic is being used to "kick(ed) some hopper ass"

[DeathAndTaxes]

The Deja Vu. It is so strong right now. Every 3-4 months this happens. I remember the last time DeathAndTaxes kicked some hopper ass with logic and numbers, and he must be preparing his counter-assault now...

No.  I have him on ignore.  He is an idiot, knows everything and doesn't have the basic knowledge to make a debate interesting.  He can't get the concept of expected value vs variance so really there is no frame of reference to begin.

[martychubbs]

The Deja Vu. It is so strong right now. Every 3-4 months this happens. I remember the last time DeathAndTaxes kicked some hopper ass with logic and numbers, and he must be preparing his counter-assault now...

No.  I have him on ignore.  He is an idiot, knows everything and doesn't have the basic knowledge to make a debate interesting.  He can't get the concept of expected value vs variance so really there is no frame of reference to begin.

Didn't read my last post?  Idiot is pretty strong name calling!  Please mister brilliant, elaborate on "expected value vs variance" and how it is applicable to mining multiple pools?  Think you are loosing...  And mister lazy, use more than a couple of sentences, please.  Or will your followers get confused?

You are being being exposed...and being pretty arrogant.  Three things you can't run from: Death, Taxes and your own imperfections!

And "doesn't have the basic knowledge to make a debate interesting" is pretty bold words for someone who hasn't rebutted this preposterous statement "It is possible for simultaneously hopping"  Dude, you are L-A-Z-Y!

Furthermore, I think I have demonstrated that my IQ is above 80...  81 for the win.  Go back to the van and start "preparing your counter-assault"  "I have him on ignore." Oh, your going to hide with your head in the sand

[Meni Rosenfeld]

DT - Sorry the question was for Meni Rosenfeld, who designed PPLNS.

I did not invent PPLNS. (I did design some of its more accurate, largely unused variants though).

Choosing PPS over PPLNS as a backup pool for hopping has no effect on expected return (assuming equal fees etc.). It does decrease payout variance, but whether this is significant is entirely up to the miner who needs to valuate what variance means to him. Variance is a thing, but it's not boolean - going with PPLNS over solo already can eliminate about 99.9% of solo variance (just for the parts when this pool is used; depends on pool's and miner's size), so eliminating what remains with PPS is generally not very significant, but preferable all else being equal.

[martychubbs]

DT - Sorry the question was for Meni Rosenfeld, who designed PPLNS.

I did not invent PPLNS. (I did design some of its more accurate, largely unused variants though).

Choosing PPS over PPLNS as a backup pool for hopping has no effect on expected return (assuming equal fees etc.). It does decrease payout variance, but whether this is significant is entirely up to the miner who needs to valuate what variance means to him. Variance is a thing, but it's not boolean - going with PPLNS over solo already can eliminate about 99.9% of solo variance (just for the parts when this pool is used; depends on pool's and miner's size), so eliminating what remains with PPS is generally not very significant, but preferable all else being equal.

Thanks Meni for addressing my question and correcting my previous statement.  I hope it provides value to more that just me.