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Author Topic: [18 GH][0% Fee] A1BITCOINPOOL.COM 20 BTC BONUS PROPORTIONAL POOL  (Read 8028 times)
martychubbs
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February 12, 2012, 05:32:37 PM
 #121

I choose EMC/Oz/BP for backups cause they have to type of pool I need, plus has MM (and love, love you guys.)  Hope you understand, cause I hop, just suck at it.

You dont seem to understand what is meant by hopping; hopping doesnt mean switching pools whenever you feel like it. Hopping in this context means joining a proportional pool at the beginning of a new block and leave at the latest at 47% CDF. Doing so increases your profits substantially at the expense of people that dont hop, taking maximum advantage of lucky short blocks without suffering nearly as much on long blocks. You might begin to understand that if you calculate your current reward per share, why its smart to avoid that.

The other pools you mention are not proportional, they all use hop proof payout mechanisms. That means you can join or leave whenever you want without impacting your average reward, because your payout is not based on (known) past luck but (unknown) future luck.

P4, hate to say it but you don't have a clear understanding of hopping, either.  Where does a hopper go if they can't mine a prop pool from  start to 43.5% (47%?)?  If I am a hopper, why would I go to "The other pools you mention are not proportional, they all use hop proof payout mechanisms?"  Do they know I am a hopper?   Hopping is not only the traditional 0-43.5% in one pool and then doing something magical until the next block is found, it truly allows the miner to control where and how they spend their hashing power.  The theoretical best you can do is 128%, but pools that take 3-4 months to find a block, delay or fake stats, and penalize for hopping make 128% unrealistic...  Hopping returns are not cumulative, it just allows a miner to mine at a higher efficiency when the opportunity is available.  My advice: Learn it, try it, love it...  then crap all over the prop pools you join with hopping folklore.

The network tries to produce one block per 10 minutes. It does this by automatically adjusting how difficult it is to produce blocks.
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February 12, 2012, 05:53:22 PM
 #122

P4, hate to say it but you don't have a clear understanding of hopping, either.  Where does a hopper go if they can't mine a prop pool from  start to 43.5% (47%?)?

Is that a question?  Well doh, you go to any PPS or hop proof pool and make 100% PPS like anyone else mining there, until you get another opportunity to hop prop pools. Doh.

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The theoretical best you can do is 128%,

If you only hope ONE pool.

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February 12, 2012, 06:12:14 PM
 #123

P4, hate to say it but you don't have a clear understanding of hopping, either.  Where does a hopper go if they can't mine a prop pool from  start to 43.5% (47%?)?

Is that a question?  Well doh, you go to any PPS or hop proof pool and make 100% PPS like anyone else mining there, until you get another opportunity to hop prop pools. Doh.

Quote
The theoretical best you can do is 128%,

If you only hope ONE pool.


Really, prove it!  What happens if you hop more than one?  School me?

Think about opportunity cost and the current universe of prop pools, not including Score. (oh and how do you determine that hop point?).  Make sure to address that in your elaborate proof.
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February 12, 2012, 06:17:33 PM
 #124

Our system was hacked last night.  As soon as I can get the data payments will go out.

Is the pool coming back on line as a prop pool?  You still have data on the prop block?

Also, are you are getting hacked atm?



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February 12, 2012, 09:30:19 PM
 #125

Our system was hacked last night.  As soon as I can get the data payments will go out.

Is the pool coming back on line as a prop pool?  You still have data on the prop block?

Also, are you are getting hacked atm?





Getting that error myself.

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February 12, 2012, 10:26:41 PM
 #126

P4, hate to say it but you don't have a clear understanding of hopping, either.  Where does a hopper go if they can't mine a prop pool from  start to 43.5% (47%?)?  If I am a hopper, why would I go to "The other pools you mention are not proportional, they all use hop proof payout mechanisms?"  Do they know I am a hopper?   Hopping is not only the traditional 0-43.5% in one pool and then doing something magical until the next block is found, it truly allows the miner to control where and how they spend their hashing power.  The theoretical best you can do is 128%, but pools that take 3-4 months to find a block, delay or fake stats, and penalize for hopping make 128% unrealistic...  Hopping returns are not cumulative, it just allows a miner to mine at a higher efficiency when the opportunity is available.  My advice: Learn it, try it, love it...  then crap all over the prop pools you join with hopping folklore.

Simple. When no pool has greater than 100% PPS return based on hopping algorithm and current round length the hopper falls back to a fair pool.


So when there are 1 or more pools which are currently yielding >100% PPS (they are before the hop-out point):
hopper mines at the pool with greatest value > 100% PPS

when no pools are hoppable (all prop pools are after hop point and thus reward < 100% PPS)
hopper mines at a fair pool

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February 12, 2012, 10:36:56 PM
 #127

DnT, he had me fooled too, but martychubbs is just trolling and crying as he sees the last prop pools slowly disappear.

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February 13, 2012, 06:26:54 AM
 #128

P4, hate to say it but you don't have a clear understanding of hopping, either.  Where does a hopper go if they can't mine a prop pool from  start to 43.5% (47%?)?
Is that a question?  Well doh, you go to any PPS or hop proof pool and make 100% PPS like anyone else mining there, until you get another opportunity to hop prop pools. Doh.
Quote
The theoretical best you can do is 128%,
If you only hope ONE pool.
Really, prove it!  What happens if you hop more than one?  School me?

Think about opportunity cost and the current universe of prop pools, not including Score. (oh and how do you determine that hop point?).  Make sure to address that in your elaborate proof.
Analysis of Bitcoin Pooled Mining Reward Systems, Appendix B (Pool-hopping in proportional pools). There's no limit to how much you can gain under the right conditions.

By the way, "anti-hopping measures" by bitcoinpool et al are a joke. Deepbit's stats hiding isn't that effective either.

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martychubbs
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February 13, 2012, 07:02:23 AM
 #129

P4, hate to say it but you don't have a clear understanding of hopping, either.  Where does a hopper go if they can't mine a prop pool from  start to 43.5% (47%?)?
Is that a question?  Well doh, you go to any PPS or hop proof pool and make 100% PPS like anyone else mining there, until you get another opportunity to hop prop pools. Doh.
Quote
The theoretical best you can do is 128%,
If you only hope ONE pool.
Really, prove it!  What happens if you hop more than one?  School me?

Think about opportunity cost and the current universe of prop pools, not including Score. (oh and how do you determine that hop point?).  Make sure to address that in your elaborate proof.
Analysis of Bitcoin Pooled Mining Reward Systems, Appendix B (Pool-hopping in proportional pools). There's no limit to how much you can gain under the right conditions.


In theory, but with the current number of pools? Don't think so...you can mine at every pool at the best time...I consider it the opportunity cost of mining with in the current universe of prop pools.

What about PPLNS as a backup pool? Would a hopper be be better off in a less variable reward system like PPS to maintain higher efficiency, as opposed to the less popular mining strategy of less efficiency?
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February 13, 2012, 11:16:13 AM
 #130

P4, hate to say it but you don't have a clear understanding of hopping, either.  Where does a hopper go if they can't mine a prop pool from  start to 43.5% (47%?)?
Is that a question?  Well doh, you go to any PPS or hop proof pool and make 100% PPS like anyone else mining there, until you get another opportunity to hop prop pools. Doh.
Quote
The theoretical best you can do is 128%,
If you only hope ONE pool.
Really, prove it!  What happens if you hop more than one?  School me?

Think about opportunity cost and the current universe of prop pools, not including Score. (oh and how do you determine that hop point?).  Make sure to address that in your elaborate proof.
Analysis of Bitcoin Pooled Mining Reward Systems, Appendix B (Pool-hopping in proportional pools). There's no limit to how much you can gain under the right conditions.


In theory, but with the current number of pools? Don't think so...you can mine at every pool at the best time...I consider it the opportunity cost of mining with in the current universe of prop pools.

What about PPLNS as a backup pool? Would a hopper be be better off in a less variable reward system like PPS to maintain higher efficiency, as opposed to the less popular mining strategy of less efficiency?

You guys wouldn't mind trying to get a bit closer to topic, would you?

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February 13, 2012, 01:25:08 PM
 #131

In theory, but with the current number of pools? Don't think so...you can mine at every pool at the best time...I consider it the opportunity cost of mining with in the current universe of prop pools.

What opportunity cost?  Worst case scenario no pool is ever below the hop point (impossible) so you always are mining on fallback pool an thus "only" earn 100% PPS value.  Oh noes I "only" get full fair value.  Anytime any one of the prop pools is below the hop point you are earning higher than 100% PPS value. 

So the lower bound under the theoretical and non-existent scenario that no pools is below the hop point is 100% PPS.
The upper bound w/ just 1 hoppable pool is 128% PPS.  With 5 or 6 pools is closer to 200%.

Quote
What about PPLNS as a backup pool? Would a hopper be be better off in a less variable reward system like PPS to maintain higher efficiency, as opposed to the less popular mining strategy of less efficiency?

I thought you said profits from hoping were only theoretical.  Variance doesn't matter to anyone except idiots who "need" a reward ever couple hours.  Expected value is expected value and over the long run a PPLNS pools with lower fees than a PPS pool will have a higher expected value.  Given there are PPLNS pools w/ no fees and merged mining the expected value can be ~101% PPS.
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February 13, 2012, 04:00:49 PM
 #132

In theory, but with the current number of pools? Don't think so...you can mine at every pool at the best time...I consider it the opportunity cost of mining with in the current universe of prop pools.

What opportunity cost?  Worst case scenario no pool is ever below the hop point (impossible) so you always are mining on fallback pool an thus "only" earn 100% PPS value.  Oh noes I "only" get full fair value.  Anytime any one of the prop pools is below the hop point you are earning higher than 100% PPS value. 

So the lower bound under the theoretical and non-existent scenario that no pools is below the hop point is 100% PPS.
The upper bound w/ just 1 hoppable pool is 128% PPS.  With 5 or 6 pools is closer to 200%.

Quote
What about PPLNS as a backup pool? Would a hopper be be better off in a less variable reward system like PPS to maintain higher efficiency, as opposed to the less popular mining strategy of less efficiency?

I thought you said profits from hoping were only theoretical.  Variance doesn't matter to anyone except idiots who "need" a reward ever couple hours.  Expected value is expected value and over the long run a PPLNS pools with lower fees than a PPS pool will have a higher expected value.  Given there are PPLNS pools w/ no fees and merged mining the expected value can be ~101% PPS.

DT - Sorry the question was for Meni Rosenfeld, who designed PPLNS.  You are not an expert on PPLNS and he is, sorry bro.  Your reading comprehension is not good as expressed by this statement "I thought you said profits from hoping were only theoretical."  BTW, if you haven't figured it out by now, I know the details of hopping...better than you I think..?  And the more you and a few others try and help me out with responses to my sarcastic, loaded questions, about hopping, the more it shows you don't completely understand hopping concepts enough to teach us something new on a prop pool thread...who is trolling who? Please go to this mythical non-p2p 0% MM pool and work on their thread? Kidding, I love the debate and I always enjoy to learn something new.   Really, I try to provided a educated balance to your arguments...sprinkled with humor and whit (bite lip please)  Go back and read my posts and you will see "I thought you said profits from hoping were only theoretical." was...in fact...retarded and we are all now dumber for reading it.

See, goat and I are telling you and your assumption are not as extreme as you state.  Probably,  since you have very limited experience with hopping or have not analyzed the real returns from it.  Output from simulations are more favorable than in production.  Also, goat has given another testimonial on his total efficiency.

AFAIK PPLNS is good for 24/7 miners, everything else can be used by a hopper to achieve maximum efficiency.  I would still like to hear from MR, since you can't provide more insight due to you poor reading comprehension...sorry Wink

This is a prop pool that encurages hopping, so what is the topic?  Should we all just whine that the pool might not recover?

Mt. Red is 100% MM PPS... ~101% by your calculation...
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February 13, 2012, 04:15:06 PM
 #133

Yeah. I like how you guys keep on blabbing about the payment system when it seems the OP has gone and left lots of unpaid shares Cry

Hope he does give me the 0.92775905 BTC I am owed after he manages to recover that hacked database.
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February 13, 2012, 04:43:50 PM
 #134

chubby going head to head with DandT...  I wonder who is going to win this...


Chubby you are a long time hopper but you don't know what the fuck is going on... You starting claiming 5 different services where hopping with out even reading the OP in the respected thread.

I control 300G and I hop pools that are normally 50G on average. Some of these pools get 700G of other hoppers coming in. WTF do you think I'm under 128%?  I hit under 100% cuz of bad luck and that can happen anytime. Looking at a number that happened only in one week on these conditions is not the rule.

You could hop 15 pools that each had 42 million shares rounds and lose your ass.. Shit can happen...

I don't think we disagree?  and you were hopping on a grand scale, which is awesome.  I just had a problem calling a proxy and mining pool, that is all my friend. Smiley  And I am wrong a lot...right just sometimes so I like to defend my arguments until I end up being wrong, again.

"Chubby you are a long time hopper but you don't know what the fuck is going on... "  Really?  I covered why your returns can be lower than theoretical not to long ago.  Again, I appreciate your honesty and testimonials cause it also supports my experiences...and I haven't been doing it that long...just been making mistakes and learning as I go.  Unless the pool is over 50 GB, like you prefer, it can take months for payout based on a few hours of mining.  And there far less than 15 prop pools to keep you that busy, so when two pools are in the hop range, you can only mine one or average the two...and the opportunity mine multiple pools consecutively keeps shrinking, not growing.  Everything I find or figure out, I share with you and other peers...not sure what you use to hop, so I made an assumption Smiley  So, I am no expert, but clueless?  Come on bro...



DandT misquoted me and I made a spectacle of it, that was all...this is a forum...and I am looking for enough posts to do the cool banner stuff...
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February 13, 2012, 04:45:43 PM
 #135

Yeah. I like how you guys keep on blabbing about the payment system when it seems the OP has gone and left lots of unpaid shares Cry

Hope he does give me the 0.92775905 BTC I am owed after he manages to recover that hacked database.

Amen Bro!  But I have given A1 enough grief...waiting to see how it plays out...  point well taken!  Maybe he will notice his pools thread is really active...

You need to hire the paper boy in "Better Off Dead" to get your $5.  You'll net $3!
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February 13, 2012, 04:59:32 PM
 #136

@ chubs

I never called my service a pool.

i hop on a "grand scale" for the lulz. p2p for the win.

a1 is not this guys first pool. he worked with cablepair before and that pool was a fail...

reading the OP of a thread you attack is just being reasonable.


Yeah. I too have established a link with cablepair ( by other means ; I did not know that he had a former failed pool till later on etc. ) and I hope that he will eventually pay me those BTC, even if it is not much.

I feel integrity matters much more than a mere 5 bucks. Losing your reputation over 5 bucks is worthy of a facepalm. 
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February 13, 2012, 04:59:49 PM
 #137

chubby going head to head with DandT...  I wonder who is going to win this...

No reason to continue the conversation with someone who lacks either the knowledge to make the debate interesting or the willingness to learn to make it worthwhile.  I will let him believe what he wants to.

All of his logical fallacies boil down to an inability to understand the difference between variance and expected return.  It is possible for simultaneously hopping to provide a significant increase to expected return AND have variance make measuring that difficulty in the short term.

He even thought your statement about variance over 1 week was some kind of evidence that hopping has reduced real world returns.  

Honestly it isn't worth the time.  He knows everything and anyone who disagrees has less experience than him.
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February 13, 2012, 05:17:00 PM
 #138

@ chubs

I never called my service a pool.

i hop on a "grand scale" for the lulz. p2p for the win.

a1 is not this guys first pool. he worked with cablepair before and that pool was a fail...

reading the OP of a thread you attack is just being reasonable.


My title was "Contracts or PPS payouts greater than 100% are pool hopping with your hashes!" which was true for you, however, you weren't addressing it in your thread...which I read.  Also, you have PPS in your title, which I took as a reward system for mining a block ala thought you were a pool or was concerned others may assume.  (see https://bitcoil.co.il/pool_analysis.pdf, 2.2 Pay-per-share (PPS)) to see that your nomenclature is misleading, hence, I forced a clarification.  I have been pretty consistent with my reasoning, and a tad irresponsible, but I am very imperfect.  Plus,  we both suspect a few others of doing so, now, where was I irresponsible?  GPUMAX? Yes...but a user was using a contract in that way...but not really applicable to my argument or had to do with P@40.  Moreover, I don't care! I just wanted the anti-hop miners to know what, I speculated, was indeed happening.  

If we have bad blood, I understand...but I still think we are on the same side?

"p2p for the win."  Since you don't get credit for not completing a "p2p share" by hopping out and it is PPLNS, are you getting 100% on btc or mining nmc proportionality, cause there is no true MM on p2p?  Tried it, that is what I found, now not doing so.  But, A1 prop otherwise... and I slice A1... still...sometimes... :0
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February 14, 2012, 12:27:42 AM
 #139

Update:  We are still working on trying to undo what the hacker did.  I will pay everyone once we get up and running again.  Thanks for your patience.
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February 14, 2012, 04:19:28 AM
 #140

chubby going head to head with DandT...  I wonder who is going to win this...

All of his logical fallacies boil down to an inability to understand the difference between variance and expected return.  It is possible for simultaneously hopping to provide a significant increase to expected return AND have variance make measuring that difficulty in the short term.

He even thought your statement about variance over 1 week was some kind of evidence that hopping has reduced real world returns.  

Honestly it isn't worth the time.  He knows everything and anyone who disagrees has less experience than him.

On this, you are wrong!  That is my only argument...the truth...

"It is possible for simultaneously hopping"  How can you mine two pools at the sometime?  Even slicing, which I think  is confusing you, mines a slice here and there (multiple pools) but in consecutive slices and not lowest share count always wins.  You can only use your hash power one share on one pool at a time.

"He even thought your statement about variance over 1 week was some kind of evidence that hopping has reduced real world returns"  where is the quote?  That is apple and oranges... variance and evidence of hopping?  Really?  Your reading comprehension is not as good as your math...sorry...I am sure you are a great guy, but please be more specific or maybe not complain about hoping on a prop thread that encourages hopping...who is the troll?

"He knows everything and anyone who disagrees has less experience than him."  Sorry, I am interesting in talking shop about hopping on a prop thread or stating "I don't understand the current payment strategy," which A1 and answered directly.  It is not a pissing contest, just tell me something that makes sense, can be proved, or state a correction in that fashion.

"chubby going head to head with DandT...  I wonder who is going to win this..."  IF we are keeping count, you haven't returned the ball yet...:0 (kidding, lighten up)  I don't think I am smarter than you, just looking for a rational argument and you have to admit "It is possible for simultaneously hopping" was a poor choice of words and would, in effect, multiply your hash rate.  But, that is not hopping and you can't mine in parallel...agree?  I think you meant mine prop pools consecutively?  Seriously, from real world experiences and the current universe of true (not scored) prop pools, it is not nearly enough hopping opportunity to reach to make that a significant of a difference, like  175% -200% averages?

si·mul·ta·ne·ous  (sml-tn-s, sml-)
adj.
1. Happening, existing, or done at the same time.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/simultaneously

Keeping score: DT said "What opportunity cost?  Worst case scenario no pool is ever below the hop point (impossible)"  Goat, think you ever use a back up pool? Very possible! Plus, only one pool offers 100% PPS with 0% fee...MT. Red and just started offering it.  I do agree that mining multiple pools in your hopper, (not http://blockchain.info, hehe) your efficiency will increase,  but not nearly like you "think!" +1

Don't be so lazy DnT...could have just looked it up:

opportunity cost
n
(Economics) Economics the benefit that could have been gained from an alternative use of the same resource

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/opportunity+cost

oh, you were thinking you could mine in parallel... Wink   +1

 
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