BitDrop (or ShadyDeliveryNetwork), a non-robotic courier system

[Nefario]

Mentioned  here by skittixch in a little detail is a really innovative idea for a delivery network that I think deserves some more attention.

Since the thread it was posted in was for a robotic delivery network, it's not being discussed more.

The post below

Personally, I love the idea of flying, autonomous delivery services as much as the next guy, but I think this conversation needs some re-alignment.  The issue more presently at hand is that of a lack of decentralized distribution services.  I had an idea for such a system.

BitDrop.

Bitdrop would be a system for human "runners" to pass goods from person to person in the most cryptographically secure way possible.

Person A negotiates a sale of an item to person B online.
Upon deciding on BitDrop as means of distribution, distance would be calculated and current gas prices would be tabulated.  This is the base shipping cost.

Person A types in their "willing to travel" radius, and, the machine would chew on the data and randomly/securely spit back out an exact lat-lon point within that radius.

A nearby runner gets notified that a package is ready for distribution.  He's signed up with his own "willing to travel" radius as well.  Ideally, if there are enough warm bodies in the chain, the venn diagrams all start overlapping, and form a human supply chain.

Upon the completed transaction, all runners in the chain would receive good feedback (ideas for delivery confirmation? sms? scanned qr codes?), and get higher GPG rankings, which would enable them to deliver goods that had been marked with higher trust requirements...and likewise, the more you're trusted in in the chain, the more the runners can charge.  Seller wants to sell something of importance/high value? they can raise the trust threshold (and subsequently, the shipping rate)

As far as black market goods go, I've thought of this scenario.  The TOS for bitdrop would state specifically that transfer of illegal goods is strictly prohibited; however, you may anonymously mark your package "shaded" if you feel the contents pose risk for any member of the chain, including senders, receivers and most importantly, runners.  Shaded goods may be distributed exclusively via dead drops, and runners can opt into notifications of shaded packages, but only after a GPG trust threshold is passed, so a significant time expenditure is required before you go "googling for drugs".  You basically knowingly waive your rights when you deal with shaded transacations. That being said, I'm sure it would turn into a profitable venture for risk-takers, while keeping clean runners away from things that could land them in jail for trafficking.

There are other details I've thought of, including the distinction between dead drops and trusted drops.  Dead drops would be entry-points into the runner market.  Let's say I want to make some extra money, and I want to sign up as a runner.  I go to the bitdrop site and sign up for an entry-level position.  This requires that I pledge a deposit for the first item I'll deliver. This means that new runners will mainly focus on delivering items of little value.  It's a Low-risk, low-return scenario for everybody involved with the transaction.  Once I, the runner, complete my transaction, the deposit is returned to my account, as well as the base shipping cost + small delivery fee.  Part of becoming a runner is setting up GPG-Authentication. The buyer and seller then add ratings to my transaction, and after a threshold is reached, I'm allowed to forego placing a deposit on items of certain values or lower.  Eventually, dead drops would give way of chains with "trusted drops", where people who've established their trust arrange meetups based on encrypted lat-lon values and anonymous instructions. The specifics should be debated about at length to promote the safety and longevity of the chain Smiley

I don't expect my first ramblings to be the end-all-be-all of this system, but unless I'm way off base, I think the concept has potential.  I actually wrote up an extensive post detailing this idea yesterday, and stupidly hit f5 before I sent it, erasing my whole post instantly...  I'd love to hear feedback and concerns.

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[LZ]

If it will be done I will say "cyberpunk is now".

[AmpEater]

I want to be a runner. I have small, quiet, incredibly fast and highly efficient electrically powered bicycles, trikes, scooters, motorcycles sitting around all charged up ready for action. I can travel by road, sidewalk, dirt path, with or without signaling lighting activated depending on situation.  Plus I dictate my own schedule, and often find myself making short excursions late at night around my town just for fun. I'll often message GPS coordinates for friends to meet me. Sounds like a great way to make some money while getting out into the world.

I know more than one pizza/chinese delivery boy that sits idle most of the time in our small town. No reason they couldn't be "on call" for more than one service at once, even combining trips if convenient

[Vasco]

This seems like a great service. I especially like the idea of recruiting idle delivery people.

[benjamindees]

Hmm I need to rent Johnny Mnemonic.

[Nefario]

Hmm I need to rent Johnny Mnemonic.

Oh yeah! (that was such a cool idea, but such a terrible movie).

[skittixch]

!  I'm very happy this thread popped up!  Thanks Nefario!   I really do think with a little love, this idea could bring about great things...it seems like it should start with a bounty for a proof of concept, then a site, and a city-by-city trial period...

I'm no coder, and I don't have the time or experience to spearhead something of this complexity, but I really appreciate you taking my idea and giving it to more eyeballs. 

[grue]

This would be great in the summer, where i'm super bored. :p

[Nefario]

!  I'm very happy this thread popped up!  Thanks Nefario!   I really do think with a little love, this idea could bring about great things...it seems like it should start with a bounty for a proof of concept, then a site, and a city-by-city trial period...

I'm no coder, and I don't have the time or experience to spearhead something of this complexity, but I really appreciate you taking my idea and giving it to more eyeballs. 

I'm going to be doing something with this(coding it up), I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about it, and I've got a lot to add (will over the next few days, busy now).

Can't start right now on development, currently doing bitcoin stock market, and there is a pre-requisit of a reputation system (which I've also got figured out and is my next mission) before something like this could be done.

It's going to be done, hopefully before the full summer kicks in.

[Nefario]

This would be great in the summer, where i'm super bored. :p

Exactly, also, I envision lots of kids, think 10-15 years old who aren't allowed to work doing deliveries or collections on bikes 2-3miles from their home.

I remember when I was 12,13, bored, no money, and not allowed to work (what a load of rubbish that is). This is a going to be a great way for them to earn bitcoin.

[bitjet]

Im into this. I would be very interested in being involved.

[skittixch]

you guys are seriously making my week  (and it's just getting started!)  Nefario, please let me know if I can help out at all.  I'm all ears.

[bober182]

Down to be a runner in my area can carry anything and have certain experience doing it already.
During the summer we had this local wargame with about 100 people playing and i was one of the messengers.
shit was so cash.

[Nefario]

Down to be a runner in my area can carry anything and have certain experience doing it already.
During the summer we had this local wargame with about 100 people playing and i was one of the messengers.
shit was so cash.

Did you get chased do this or shot at(bb gun, paintball gun?)?

Sounds like a lot of fun.

[BitterTea]

Nefario,

I'd be interested in doing some coding for this project. I'm new to Python (I assume you'd use the same language), but not to the programming world.

[Nefario]

BitDrop implementation

Along with the initial idea (the subject of this post) some extra details.

1)Use Tor style onion routing to deliver packages.

What does this mean?

Every node(person doing delivery) must have a gpg key.
When a new package is to be entered into the system the sytem works out the route, selecting the appropriate nodes.

It then uses the nodes public key to encrypt the nodes delivery location.
The result is that each node can only know the location they deliver to and not the final destination of the package. If geocaching is used then each node doesn't even know who the previous node was.


Example.
Person in New York wants to deliver a package to Washington D.C.
Logs into the system, gives the pickup(either someone comes to collect the package, or the user delivers it to the first drop off point), and the final destination.

The system works out the optimal route, notifies all the soon to be involved nodes, and gives the user the first drop off point for the package (or someone will come and collect it).

The person who collects the package first is the first node, the only information they have been given is where to collect the package and where to deliver it to, the next location is the collection point for the next node and so on.

The result is each node knows only a portion of the route, it increases privacy, and the strngth of the delivery network.

I'm also thinking of having an android app that each node can use to sign the delivery of the package to the next node (using gpg), so if something happens to the package we know who's responsible, it also allows some measure of package tracking for the customer.

Each node gets a portion of the overall payment for it's delivery.

[HostFat]

Great! Anyway this should be an "option".
So it will be possible to chose the level of security, and also "drone" should have the possibility to chose to be a tor-like drone or not.

Example: I'm a drone, but today I just want to take flowers/pizza/cake/... things

Sorry for my bad english, I hope that you understood my idea ...

[Nefario]

Great! Anyway this should be an "option".
So it will be possible to chose the level of security, and also "drone" should have the possibility to chose to be a tor-like drone or not.

Example: I'm a drone, but today I just want to take flowers/pizza/cake/... things

Sorry for my bad english, I hope that you understood my idea ...

I think I understand what you're saying.

You would like to be able to opt-out of packages that are risky(unknown, possible illegal contents), this can be done.

If someone wants package privacy then it's marked as a dark package, and only nodes(couriers) who have said they will accept dark packages will get it. Normal packages get inspected and signed off by the first delivery node, or something like that.

Dark packets because they are higher risk cost more, someone willing to deliver them can charge more.

Right?

[HostFat]

Yes! You have understood perfectly

[TiagoTiago]

This system needs Faith

[grue]

This system needs Faith

we can start with PGP signatures :p

[TiagoTiago]

Seems you didn't see what i did there

[Nefario]

Seems you didn't see what i did there

The opening line of the WHAM song?

I missed what you did there too.

[TiagoTiago]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocnI6hQO8SA <- watch




It was a reference to this

[Nefario]

Oh I see, the character of the game is Faith.

That is actually a cool video (seems a realistic storyline, at least from the intro), and is exactly the future we have ins store.

[eMansipater]

...is exactly the future we have in store.

I've made a career out of predicting the future--and I would never, ever use this phrase

[Nefario]

The result is each node knows only a portion of the route, it increases privacy, and the strngth of the delivery network.

Unfortunately, delivering physical objects has a very different security/threat profile from delivering data packets. All one need do to compromise the security of such a system is to send through location tracking devices. It makes no difference if delivery is done by human or non-human agents.

I was thinking about this, someone sending through a gps tracker that records the trip, but how useful would that be in reality(as long as the package is not brought to some location that is tied to the runner, i.e. their home or office or something)?

All that would say is about the pay being taken, and nothing about the person delivering.

Could lock the packages up in a faraday cage type box so they can't get a gps signal. Would wrapping it in foil work?

[Nefario]

 
Putting the object in a Faraday cage (yes, wrapping in foil) could provide a defense from live location tracking. But once the package is opened its location could be reported. So, this would provide a measure of security to the delivery network, but not to the recipient.

Interesting, I was going to say that someone would need to have the address of the recipient to send the package to them in the first place, but then I remembered the system does.

Also a package that could transmit it's location over a reasonable distance would need to be reasonably powerful and not small in size, larger than a 19inch crt monitor?

However, I do not know what you would do with a data-logging device that uses accelerometer input to reconstruct location by dead reckoning, a Faraday cage would not help in this case, it could penetrate the security of both the delivery network as well as that of the recipient. It need not even be terribly accurate, with enough samples routes can be reconstructed with a very high accuracy if they are re-used... Even completely random routes and drops would only have the effect of limiting the degree of accuracy such a attack could deliver. It could also reveal a lot of other information, including the transportation mode of the carriers, (walk/run, bike, car, etc.) as well as gait, which could be used to identify individual carriers. With enough time/space data the travel path could be also be correlated to video surveillance.

Now you're being more paranoid than I.

The best defense in this case would be to severely limit the size/weight of packages delivered, and also wrap them in foil, to prevent RFID tracking.

I agree. Any other suggestions to prevent the network being attacked?

What about law enforcement using entrapment against entry nodes? For example, they have an entry node (first person to collect package from user) collect the package which they have put illegal items such as drug into, and then proceed to arrest the entry node.

I'm thinking that you will need some reputation to be able to send packages too, this should help the network to resist.

[skittixch]

I think we're focusing too much on filling every possible security hole with measures that would stifle the proliferation and usability of such a network.  Think about the calamity that is the TSA, and the fact the people are choosing not to fly simply because the security measures have gotten so invasive. We might be venturing down a path of total anonymity, but at what cost?  I think simple, cost-effective, common sense steps can be taken (I love the tin foil packing idea) to reasonably protect all points in the chain.  If there's reason (i.e. high value, illicit, etc packages) to be paranoid about the possibility of an aggressive attack, dark runners can advertise their own methods for protecting the packages in transmission.  Instead of trying to centralize the security system, let it grow naturally out of necessity.  The runners will have reason to do this, as they'll be able to charge more for their security expertise and practices, further making a flourishing ecosystem of professional/entrepreneurial skill-sets to meet the demands of their clients.  The danger from the outset isn't outside aggression; rather, it's from setting up a system so complex that it makes people not want to try it in the first place.  Sending a package should be as easy as sending bitcoins to an acct and defining a start/end point. Any further complexity will limit the use of the system, and will run a risk of things drying up completely.  Total systemic failure is far worse than the remote possibility of an aggressive attack on a node by node basis, imo.

[FatherMcGruder]

I think that nodes should be able to specify their schedules as well as weight and size limits, but I don't think any should know the contents of the package. Otherwise, senders will simply lie about the contents. If the nodes really wanted to know, they could just peek.

If authorities compromise a node, that person can log into the site with a second password that will stop the system from routing packages through that node.

[Nefario]

skittixch you've created a monster.

I'm running with this (although I won't start until next week, kind of busy).

Also it's on Cypherpunked, I gave them an interview yesterday, should be available as a podcast in a day or so here. http://agoristradio.com/?p=285

[FatherMcGruder]

I think runners should specify whether certain routes will have privacy or not. For example, for local destinations, a runner could safely not look at packages and post his promise so as to attract more packages. However, if the runner is about to take a trip by airplane, he will have to peek at any packages that he’s carrying, and should specify that condition on his profile.

[Nefario]

I think runners should specify whether certain routes will have privacy or not. For example, for local destinations, a runner could safely not look at packages and post his promise so as to attract more packages. However, if the runner is about to take a trip by airplane, he will have to peek at any packages that he’s carrying, and should specify that condition on his profile.

That could be done.

[FatherMcGruder]

Now, there also has to be some contingency for when a runner receives a package that violates his requirements. I think the runner should just dispose of the package as he pleases.

[BitterTea]

Now, there also has to be some contingency for when a runner receives a package that violates his requirements. I think the runner should just dispose of the package as he pleases.

I was under the impression that the system would be taking care of package routing, why should the customer be penalized in that case? A runner should be able to notify the system of any exceptions (damage to package, unable to deliver, etc) and it will give them a drop off point leading the package back into the system.

[FatherMcGruder]

I was under the impression that the system would be taking care of package routing, why should the customer be penalized in that case? A runner should be able to notify the system of any exceptions (damage to package, unable to deliver, etc) and it will give them a drop off point leading the package back into the system.

I was assuming that the sender would have lied to the system for a cheaper rate. Presumably, private routes would cost more than routes without privacy.

[mp420]

I do not yet really grok the economics of this kind of P2P delivery system, but I think there might even be reasons to use it aside from anonymity concerns. There likely would be cases where rates might be cheaper than centralized mail services can offer. Centralized (public or private) mail services cross-subsidize the services to rural and other sparsely populated areas heavily. So, sending packages that are just too big to fit in an envelope might be quite inexpensive to send inside and between densely populated areas, if the couriers were people who already traveled part of the route as their daily routine (commute to work for example). Another case where marginal costs could be very low compared to conventional freight rates would of course be air travel.

This is all very fascinating, I can't wait to see how these ideas turn out to perform in real life.

[skittixch]

skittixch you've created a monster.

I'm running with this (although I won't start until next week, kind of busy).

Also it's on Cypherpunked, I gave them an interview yesterday, should be available as a podcast in a day or so here. http://agoristradio.com/?p=285

[Orbijx]

This system needs Faith

Late to the thread, but I love you so much for saying that.

Weed out the Celestes while we're at it.

[cuddlefish]

I may just integrate this into Ubitex.

[error]

I thought of this thread when I saw the SlashDot article
Tech Experts Look To Help Save the Postal Service

It seems Google cares a lot about this, for some reason.

That's unfortunate. The USPS should be allowed to die just like any other failing business. It should not be further bailed out.

[cuddlefish]

I thought of this thread when I saw the SlashDot article
Tech Experts Look To Help Save the Postal Service

It seems Google cares a lot about this, for some reason.

That's unfortunate. The USPS should be allowed to die just like any other failing business. It should not be further bailed out.

The USPS isn't a business.

[error]

I thought of this thread when I saw the SlashDot article
Tech Experts Look To Help Save the Postal Service

It seems Google cares a lot about this, for some reason.

That's unfortunate. The USPS should be allowed to die just like any other failing business. It should not be further bailed out.

The USPS isn't a business.

I'm well aware of that. But they like to think they are, so they should be cut loose and treated as such.

[BitterTea]

I think there could be an argument made both ways, but here's some info I found...

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Postal_Service

Since its reorganization into an independent organization, the USPS has become self-sufficient and has not directly received taxpayer-dollars since the early 1980s with the minor exception of subsidies for costs associated with the disabled and overseas voters. However, it is currently borrowing money from the U.S. Treasury to pay its deficits. The decline of mail volume, due to the increased usage of email, has forced the postal service to look to other sources of revenue while cutting costs to maintain this financial balance.

[luv2drnkbr]

I'm in Las Vegas, USA and might potentially be willing to be a courier/node in this if it gets off the ground.  My fee would be in the 4-5 BTC minimum range though.

[TiagoTiago]

I imagine in some cities there might be lots of bicycle couriers that would appreciate the additional income and won't worry much about what the contents of the packages are

[cuddlefish]

Take it a step further: public/private key crypto (Literally!)

When you sign up, you send BitDrop a bunch of unlocked padlocks only you know the combination of. When they want to send something to you, they lock the box with the padlock and send it to you.

[TiagoTiago]

So you send the sender a padlock, and then the sender locks their stuff with your padlock and sends it back to you?

[cuddlefish]

So you send the sender a padlock, and then the sender locks their stuff with your padlock and sends it back to you?

yup

[BitterTea]

Even more secure!

Alice puts her lock on the package, sends it to Bob. Bob puts his lock on the package and sends it back to Alice. Alice takes her lock off and sends it back to Bob. Voila!

I heard this as an analogy to commutative ciphers. Theoretically a similar cryptographic system would be incredibly secure, but it requires a strong cipher that is commutative, which means that it doesn't matter what order Alice and Bob encrypt or decrypt the data. As long as everybody that encrypts also decrypts, the message stays intact.

[Ryland R. Taylor-Almanza]

This needs to happen! I would love to be a runner! Once I've completed a few jobs I'm working on, I should have plenty of time to help with coding this.

[Nefario]

This needs to happen! I would love to be a runner! Once I've completed a few jobs I'm working on, I should have plenty of time to help with coding this.

Roughly how long until you've got those jobs done?

[Ryland R. Taylor-Almanza]

I could probably get the ones I actually need to be working on done in 2-3 days. I have 1 job that would take a little longer, but I'm doing it for free, and it's not urgent, so that one can be put aside for a while.

[42kang]

Hey guys I'm new to the forum and really surprised by all the smart agorist possibilities being openly discussed. I really like all the devils advocates as they give us the foresight needed to keep the state out of our private affairs. In short this is how I see this going down with my current understanding:
________________________
Prong One:
Bitcoin currency

Prong Two:
The Agora(s)

Prong Three:
The real world delivery system
________________________
The bitcoin cloud is up and running and had proven itself, introducing a host of possible entrepreneurial activities and ideas (I love a free market, don't you). 

The Agora is a place to buy and sell, to conduct commerce, to trade or promote a service. BitTorrent will distribute the software interface and the software itself will be the network, each computer making a node in the local, national and international market.

The BitDrop network if effective concludes this round table, distributing that which it can to where it can.

In affect three or more cloud networks working in a symbiotic relationship.

Floating thoughts

posted this elsewhere but can belong here

The whole deal with bitcoin is an alternative to regulated currency, a true free anonymous market, correct?

Hows about a program that once installed, you can put in your general geographical location and it will patch you in as a node in a local network for your area (each computer running the program in the area becomes a node). The program shares a distributed set of information and is continually checking itself for corrections and validations, like bitcoin. In this way I can become a node and share some weight in the data distribution then anonymously put an item I would like to sell to someone else in the local network, ask a price in BTC and then once the item is dispatched at a pick up point I can then forward the buyer the details of collecting. Or alternately I could use the programs to see a listing of things for sale in my local area, the price in BTC and then once bought wait for directions to collect.

Assuming everything is lawful and tor compatible, would this work as a agorist program? How might the details for the pick up point be communicated to the buyer?
The idea is to maintain anonymity, have a locally distributed agora which runs on a trust/rating program.

[carlerha]

I'm really excited about this! Bitdrop is a great idea. I would definitely help out as a runner and moral support

[nereer]

I think the only big problem with this plan is that it needs a critical mass of bitcoin users that isn't yet there, and may not be for some time. Is there any way to estimate the population density of bitcoin in a major metropolitan area? If you can prove it works in NYC then I can see it working elsewhere.

[FatherMcGruder]

I think the only big problem with this plan is that it needs a critical mass of bitcoin users that isn't yet there, and may not be for some time. Is there any way to estimate the population density of bitcoin in a major metropolitan area? If you can prove it works in NYC then I can see it working elsewhere.

When the system can't find an acceptable route, it should let the would-be sender know, but also contact potential nodes and ask if they'd make an exception to their travel limits.

[ParidigmShift]

Even more secure!

Alice puts her lock on the package, sends it to Bob. Bob puts his lock on the package and sends it back to Alice. Alice takes her lock off and sends it back to Bob. Voila!

I heard this as an analogy to commutative ciphers. Theoretically a similar cryptographic system would be incredibly secure, but it requires a strong cipher that is commutative, which means that it doesn't matter what order Alice and Bob encrypt or decrypt the data. As long as everybody that encrypts also decrypts, the message stays intact.

Steve Gibson actually points out a man-in-the-middle attack that easily compromises this scheme in his podcast, Security Now, episode 33.  

And so anyway, a listener pointed out that is subject to a man-in-the-middle attack, which I thought was really cool.  Someone intercepts my sending it to you and pretends to be you.

He puts his lock on, yup, sends it back to me.  I remove mine, send it back to him, he removes his.  Now he opens it, takes a look at the inside, changes it, does whatever evil thing he wants to to it.  Now he pretends to be me, sending it on to you.  So he basically does the same three-way handshake from him in the middle to you, and you don't know you didn't get the contents from me.

I think a better solution would be to use combination padlocks that have a changeable combination.  First, combinations are not like keys which need to be exchanged physically.  In this way, Alice could communicate the key to Bob over the BitDrop interface, email or anything, and optionally use GPG.  This would serve as an "out-of-band" key exchange, since there is a very small chance that any node relaying the package would also be able to intercept Alice and Bob's communications, and GPG makes that even harder.  In this way, the chance of someone having access to the key and lock at the same time are near zero.  

(Edit: key or combination padlocks also would both provide a little bit of authenticity.  If somebody tries to cut the lock off and replace it, he or she won't be able to set the physical key fitting back to that of Alice's (or the symmetric key in the case of combination locks), without knowing her key.  When Bob gets the package with no lock, or a lock he can't open, he will know that the box has been tampered with.  This is not solid against physical lock manipulation techniques such as lock-picking, brute force combination testing, or other physical exploits.)

Using combination locks also allows one to change the combination, given they know the current one.  This way, once Bob receives the package, he can take it off and re-use it with a different combination, which he communicates to his recipient.  Padlocks would continue to be passed around, and eventually become part of the system.  

Additionally, using padlocks in this way might protect runners through safe-harbour laws.  This type of statute prevents an individual from being liable as long as the action was being performed in good faith.  Similarly, the use of padlocks allows runners plausible deniability, because the runner would not have had the opportunity to know what he or she was carrying.  

[cuddlefish]

You do realize I was joking? Physical locks are incredibly weak.

[Nefario]

You do realize I was joking? Physical locks are incredibly weak.

I don't think they did.

[ParidigmShift]

You do realize I was joking? Physical locks are incredibly weak.

I thought this whole thread was a joke. Using Faraday cages as boxes to prevent GPS tracking, tracing using accelerometers and dead reckoning, and you were joking about the locks? 

[Nefario]

Calling ruby, php, python and javascript developers we're starting development.Get your name on this project, make a place for yourself in history.

PM me your experience and anything else you think important.

[Nefario]

Perhaps your delivery network could help here: http://www.dbune.com/news/world/6097-donkeys-take-over-from-dsl-as-syria-shuts-down-internet.html

Probably could, and tie this in with da27ce sneakernet bitcoin....

[Anonymous]

Even bitmunchies could use this http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9423.new#new

Setup food distribution points or drivers who will then deliver the stuff to the customers.

I know if I could be paid in bitcoins I would deliver to the closest city which is an hour and a half from here and is the largest concentration of bitcoiners in Aus.

Do a run once a week or pay extra for same day delivery = win.

Im in the transport industry 

[bearbones]

I would love it if we could set something like this up!  I don't think that I have nearly as much business as some of the other services that might be interested, though...

[speeder]

Cool idea.

I would be a runner If proved profitable enough, I might even learn parkour and etc... XD

But just taking the packages in my commute would be fine already.

[seef]

I could work as a runner I like that Idea! Screw postal service!

[ctoon6]

I think you should start by making a google map where we can log in an put down our zipcode, then you can see if such a thing is even possible before you make an entire site.

[Nefario]

I think you should start by making a google map where we can log in an put down our zipcode, then you can see if such a thing is even possible before you make an entire site.

Oh it's possible.

We're going to be kicking this into the next grear tomorrow by throwing more resources at it. To top it off I've figured out something of a technical issue that was in the way.

I'll also be selling shares on GLBSE for the project, this is going to be big.

Nefario.

[ctoon6]

another suggestion, a usd to btc and btc to usd converter.

instead of paying fees to the man, you could meet up with someone that had the item you wanted. or proxy buy

for example, i wanted to get some btc, it could help me find a seller in my area that i can meet face to face with, or dead drop it if they/I wanted. you could charge a nominal fee of like 1-10$ for helping to find a trader.

[cuddlefish]

another suggestion, a usd to btc and btc to usd converter.

instead of paying fees to the man, you could meet up with someone that had the item you wanted. or proxy buy

for example, i wanted to get some btc, it could help me find a seller in my area that i can meet face to face with, or dead drop it if they/I wanted. you could charge a nominal fee of like 1-10$ for helping to find a trader.

Oh, wow, that's an awesome idea! Someone should totally do that!

[Nefario]

another suggestion, a usd to btc and btc to usd converter.

instead of paying fees to the man, you could meet up with someone that had the item you wanted. or proxy buy

for example, i wanted to get some btc, it could help me find a seller in my area that i can meet face to face with, or dead drop it if they/I wanted. you could charge a nominal fee of like 1-10$ for helping to find a trader.

Oh, wow, that's an awesome idea! Someone should totally do that!

Someone should, but I don't think that will really work out though, it's a nice idea, just not practical 

[seef]

Any news?

[Nefario]

Any news?

Starting to put a lot of resources behind the development of this, nothing usable yet though.

Nefario.

[cuddlefish]

Calling ruby, php, python and javascript developers we're starting development.Get your name on this project, make a place for yourself in history.

PM me your experience and anything else you think important.

I like the basic idea however I'd reconsider the choice of technology and centralized nature. If you want a robust delivery network that is resilient to attacks it has to be a peer-to-peer system and then C++/Java/Python/.NET and similar non-web technologies are the way to go for nodes.

But I'm thinking that bitcoin merchants don't really want a system that delivers parcels from their building to their customers. What they really want is for products to be delivered to the consumers as cheap and easy as possible. That is why Amazon distribution centers are so popular. So how about a Peer-to-Peer Distribution Network?

Any entrepreneur with storage space can add a distribution center to the distribution network. Nodes then re-calculate optimal distribution of products in response to network events, past product distribution behavior, and prices. Such network events can for instance be addition or removal of storage space at a distribution center, addition or removal of a distribution center, addition of a product, creation of a parcel, delivery of a parcel, and undeliverable parcel. The distribution network can be modeled with a (distributed) graph data structure.

The parcel is created as close as possible to the customer for faster delivery. Products are sourced from the closest possible distribution centers. Distribution centers are replenished according to predicted demand. Customers that live in areas with regular demand will likely experience very fast delivery even if the bitcoin merchant is on another continent. Since demand in an area would be visible, a good infrastructure would likely develop - jobs are created. Distribution centers and couriers are competing which will keep prices low in areas with high demand (eg. cities of a reasonble size).

Investigating an optimal product distribution algorithm would be an interesting computer science problem.

Of course distribution centers and couriers need to have some sort of trust rating. It would be easy to track whom lost a parcel with digital signatures and decrease the rating which would result in the network sending less business their way in the future. In fact a rule could be made that the value of the parcel must be paid to a Bitcoin address (owned by the merchant) before the network again will send new parcels their way. Distribution centers and couriers can choose not to accept parcels with a too high value and insurrance companies would probably be created to cover their loss if there is a need.

The merchant will digitally sign the delivery order and the customer will digitally sign for the reception of the parcel on arrival.

Distribution centers can be small (apartment based) or large (dedicated buildings) and couriers can use bicycles or trucks.

I would definitely support such a project.

Casper

It's a CDN!

[kokjo]

Absolutely awesome! Any news on the progress?

yes! i am working on designing it. we will have a beta working in a week or two.

[YoYa]

A suggestion, This network could emulate normal delivery networks in terms of using mobile devices for Track and Trace, A simple android app would allow the use of 2D barcodes to print the public key on to the package, as previously discussed this would allow no knowledge of the final destination but for point to point. This application would have to be designed to ensure anonymity and security such that no one on the network could be compromised, but this would allow both receiver and sender to be aware where their item is on the network at any time, you could also include a real course geolocation as well such that it's a big enough area not to be trackable, but this could be optional as well.

Even though this is an anonymous network, the need for trust means that an audit trail has to exist, but having an audit trail is not mutually exclusive to anonymity if implemented correctly. This could be a way of avoiding transfer disputes where, where runner b disputes that runner a ever even dropped the package off.

Something to think about.

[elements]

I also love the idea of Bitdrop and I also have some suggestions:

1.) Let the nodes decide whether they only do "legal" deliveries or "shady" ones

2.) Include an option that enables nodes to entry different routes to specific dates (like a calendar)
this should also include reoccuring routes (like s. o. takes the same route to work every businessday, school kids, retired people who everyday take the same walk, etc.).

3.) Consider expanding the drop to be a person
This way people could travel very cheaply and if the network is optimized very quickly

Example:
S. o. wants to go from Airport CGN, Paris, France to Hamburg, Germany mainstation
a) a node who just took his spouse to the airport collects the traveller at the airport and takes him to the mainstation in Paris by car
b) Another node who has a ticket which works for two people (at least in Europe there are many tickets like this) and has a free spot takes the traveller on the train to Cologne in Germany with him
c) In Cologne a truckdriver takes the traveller to a gas station next to the highway near Hamburg
d) someone who works in Hamburg but lives in the suburbs picks up the traveller at the gas station (which the node comes along everyday on his way to work) and takes the traveller into the city.

This could also be combined with severel levels of comfort: e. g. only by car, cheapest, fastest, etc.

4.) for things: include weight, seize and fragility

5.) include secondary nodes

for example:
let's say node B is a school kid leaving his home every weekday at 8 a. m. an arrives at school at 8.45 a.m.
the previous node A must arrive early enough to give B the package. Should A miss B's departure the network has to reroute B to a secondary node replacing B and so forth...


Well, I really hope you really bring this project to life - that would be so awesome.

When I heard about it the first time I just thought how much energy everyone "wastes" everyday which could be capitalized upon and how much this project could do for reallocating resources more efficently (not only in terms of individual business but also in terms of economy and ecology as a whole).
 
Good luck!!!
 

[ctoon6]

solution to ensure that packages are delivered

the sender that wants the package delivered generates a bunch of keys to give to each of the nodes, the end receiver who is getting the package has all the keys as well, each node does not know the others key, and for every delivery they use a different key. when one node drop the package off to another, they combine their keys when they meet up and submit the result to the sender and the receiver.

packages should contain a gps, water sensor, force detector and a wireless transmitter that sends a different confirmation for the combined result of the 2 keys. this insures that the package has not been replaced and has not been damaged. all of that could be combined into a small device.

most of that stuff should be optional, but if the sender and/or receiver is super paranoid, then they should have that available.

i cant think of a way to know if a package has been tampered with.

[kokjo]

solution to ensure that packages are delivered

the sender that wants the package delivered generates a bunch of keys to give to each of the nodes, the end receiver who is getting the package has all the keys as well, each node does not know the others key, and for every delivery they use a different key. when one node drop the package off to another, they combine their keys when they meet up and submit the result to the sender and the receiver.

packages should contain a gps, water sensor, force detector and a wireless transmitter that sends a different confirmation for the combined result of the 2 keys. this insures that the package has not been replaced and has not been damaged. all of that could be combined into a small device.

most of that stuff should be optional, but if the sender and/or receiver is super paranoid, then they should have that available.

i cant think of a way to know if a package has been tampered with.

we have though of this, it will just be a simple system. where a runner, signs with his pgp key that he is responsible for this package, and gives it to the previous runner, who submits it to the server. when the next runner takes over the responsibility, the first runner loses it.
you could also add insurance to the system, require that the runner haves some frozen bitcoins on the server, which first gets released, when he provides proof that the net runner has responsibility of the package. 

[TiagoTiago]

I forgot if this idea has been mentioned, how about using onion layering (like on TOR),  so each element of the delivery chain only knows their part and there is less need to keep online communication going between each step?

[Nefario]

I forgot if this idea has been mentioned, how about using onion layering (like on TOR),  so each element of the delivery chain only knows their part and there is less need to keep online communication going between each step?

Thats what were doing.

[kokjo]

I forgot if this idea has been mentioned, how about using onion layering (like on TOR),  so each element of the delivery chain only knows their part and there is less need to keep online communication going between each step?

Thats what were doing.

it can not be completely onion-style routing. we will know all the routes, as we are the single point of failure.
of course we will try to do it as onion-style as possible. with pgp encrypted communication between the nodes, we cannot know the exact point and time, where the two nodes will meet, and exchange the package.

[myrkul]

This is a fantastic idea.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

This is a fantastic idea.

Reason for bump: I was thinking about something like this today with Craigslist in mind. This thing could have legs being that the USPS is in trouble. Maybe this idea can be re-presented in Bitcoin Discussions as opposed to Trading. I'm not going to do, but anybody here feel like presenting it?

Every runner will be paid in Bitcoin--no exceptions. (idea)

[apetersson]

looking forward to this project. will totally sign up for delivery tasks in my area

[ptshamrock]

I also love the Idea ! and i am ready to deliver ur packets in Europe!


just gimme me missions


I am not able to code or contrubute much to the idea itself but thought maybe this stuff is useful?

http://ardrone.parrotshopping.com/de/p_ardrone_main.aspx

[cbeast]

Any recent word on this project?

[kokjo]

Any recent word on this project?

dead.

[Ryland R. Taylor-Almanza]

What happened to it? I was really excited for it!

[ctoon6]

What happened to it? I was really excited for it!

why do 90% of all the other projects never get out of the planning stage?

[Ryland R. Taylor-Almanza]

What happened to it? I was really excited for it!

why do 90% of all the other projects never get out of the planning stage?

Because I was lazy at the time, and didn't do my work? lol

[Dusty]

why do 90% of all the other projects never get out of the planning stage?

Because talking is cheap and everybody can do it while doing it for real job is quite difficult

[cbeast]

why do 90% of all the other projects never get out of the planning stage?

Because talking is cheap and everybody can do it while doing it for real job is quite difficult

Maybe it can become an open source project? Has anyone drawn up any designs?

[Valalvax]

At first I was like "wtf that's a stupid idea" but this sounds totally awesome

[Ryland R. Taylor-Almanza]

why do 90% of all the other projects never get out of the planning stage?

Because talking is cheap and everybody can do it while doing it for real job is quite difficult

Maybe it can become an open source project? Has anyone drawn up any designs?

I would like to see this happen. I was working on this very early on, but got fired because I was lazy, so I don't know how far this got, but I know kokjo stayed with it for a while. Maybe he still has some parts of the project?

[Rassah]

I would also very much like to see this happen.

[Nefario]

I was working with a number of guys at the time on getting this rolling but that was at the time I had my accident. It's still a great project but unless someone else takes it up I won't be able to get anything done with it until the new year at best.

Nefario.

[HostFat]

With the incoming BIP_0011, can this project become completely decentralized?

[Andrew Bitcoiner]

what's something we can do right now to make this a reality? would a diaspora app allow this to happen?

[finway]

Wonderful idea!
Watching this 

[Stephen Gornick]

Also, see this:
 - http://mmmule.com

and related:
 - http://www.citizenshipper.com

[HostFat]

Someone should suggest them to embrace Bitcoin!

[Nefario]

We'll be kicking off development of bitdrop shortly after GLBSE2.0 is out the door (already 3 days late :s) we'll also be doing an IPO on GLBSE to fund it.

Nefario.

[HostFat]

We'll be kicking off development of bitdrop shortly after GLBSE2.0 is out the door (already 3 days late :s) we'll also be doing an IPO on GLBSE to fund it.

Nefario.

This is a really good news!

[Blazr]

Any update on this? Is it still going ahead?

[HostFat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fluKWYRC_w
http://www.google.com/enterprise/mapsearth/products/coordinate.html

I see that it's a good business

[cbeast]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fluKWYRC_w
http://www.google.com/enterprise/mapsearth/products/coordinate.html

I see that it's a good business

Google just needs to adopt Bitcoin. After the whining and crying stops everyone will (mistakenly) thank them for inventing it.

[Bitcoin Oz]

https://booster.io/tipjar/0C8XE2G  started a bounty to get this off the ground and stuck 500LTC in the kitty.

[Xenland]

I can supply a device that peroidically ping gps locations through the cellular network and these devices can be sold to either runners and/or customers to place in their package to make sure it gets their.

Basically someome needs to create a website that looks up the route of the package and then queries the nearest runners asking if they can full fill the order for X amount of btc(along with estimated amount of $$$).
Sounds simple

What if runners are unavailable to pick up packages like they promised? (family member died, rush to hospital , some other extreme reason?)

[enmaku]

I'll add another runner (maybe 2 if my wife isn't busy) to the Vegas network if you ever get it running.

[Bitcoin Oz]

I can supply a device that peroidically ping gps locations through the cellular network and these devices can be sold to either runners and/or customers to place in their package to make sure it gets their.

Basically someome needs to create a website that looks up the route of the package and then queries the nearest runners asking if they can full fill the order for X amount of btc(along with estimated amount of $$$).
Sounds simple

What if runners are unavailable to pick up packages like they promised? (family member died, rush to hospital , some other extreme reason?)

Possibly depending on the package they could post it to the next runner. At least message someone about it and the site could notify another runner in the area if there is one.

The important part here is "communication".

The gps device would be nice too. Especially for dead drops

[chsados]

this is extremely interesting and i would love to see this service happen.  id be willing to both use the service and participate in it.

[teknomunk]

I think this is an excellent idea.  I would be willing to be a runner for non-dark packages on my daily, 40-minute commute in Oklahoma, and maybe a ship items thru this system once it gets going and I have things to sell.

For developers working or considering working on this, you may have a look at http://www.openstreetmap.org/ as a data source.  Also, please keep in mind that some people, like myself, are available for point-to-point travel, but not so much for radius travel.

[Rassah]

I'm so interested in this, I'm willing to personally cover most of the Washington DC/Baltimore area

[Stephen Gornick]

I would be willing to be a runner for non-dark packages

Is couriering cash something you'ld object to?  If not, up to what amount would you be comfortable?

(I don't have an actual need, just curious what the response to this question would be.)

[myrkul]

I would be willing to be a runner for non-dark packages

Is couriering cash something you'ld object to?  If not, up to what amount would you be comfortable?

(I don't have an actual need, just curious what the response to this question would be.)

I wouldn't object. No limit, upper or lower. But then, ideally, I have no idea whats in the box.

[sadpandatech]

How the heck did I miss this gem of an idea. Love it and would definitely sign up as a curiour. And would also be interested in sending this way.

What kind of prices are we talking with it being gas price^mileage based?

[Bitcoin Oz]

This should be a p2p android app rather than a website.

https://booster.io/tipjar/0c8xe2g   the bounty is here.

One thing to consider is using existing services that are similar https://www.meemeep.com/ for example.

Would be good if services like that had an api you could pull and advertise any holes in the network to be filled

[LightRider]

Instead of a radius, why not define a region that you are willing to go to. Maybe some parts of your state are largely uninhabited or the roadways aren't tolerable for your vehicle, or you want to avoid certain portions of your city. That might make routing more complicated but probably more efficient.

[boonies4u]

Instead of a radius, why not define a region that you are willing to go to. Maybe some parts of your state are largely uninhabited or the roadways aren't tolerable for your vehicle, or you want to avoid certain portions of your city. That might make routing more complicated but probably more efficient.

Also perhaps a distance off of certain highways, so rather than forming a circle, it would be an expanded bubble around whatever major highways you specified.

[Bitcoin Oz]

Perhaps you could use google maps and specify streets rather than just a radius. Each person would have a different colour to make it easier to see the overlaps.

Then you could see the exact streets to do handovers.

[finkleshnorts]

What a troubled history this innovative thread has had. Perhaps moving it to a more relevant board would do it some justice. I am surprised it has just now come to my attention. A goofy and quixotic thread, but interesting nonetheless. p2p ftw

[Bitcoin Oz]

What a troubled history this innovative thread has had. Perhaps moving it to a more relevant board would do it some justice. I am surprised it has just now come to my attention. A goofy and quixotic thread, but interesting nonetheless. p2p ftw

Its on the agenda for bitcoinglobal but I think its an idea that belongs to everyone. If someone makes a start perhaps they will get paid at the end of it as lead dev or get some shares

[teknomunk]

I would be willing to be a runner for non-dark packages

Is couriering cash something you'ld object to?  If not, up to what amount would you be comfortable?

(I don't have an actual need, just curious what the response to this question would be.)

I would not object, but would prefer it not be so large as to make myself an attractive target to be robbed. I don't have an armored car . So, I see no problem with a few hundred USD total per trip.

I can see where this kind of service would be useful for moving money into or out of an exchange without needing the banks.

[LightRider]

SneakerNet -> TireNet

[Newar]

Very interesting. Glad to hear this is going forward!

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

it's already well established the courier has no liability for the legality of his/her charge under a properly run delivery service and something like this would have a transparent system where it's obvious the courier cant know the contents.

This can't possibly work in court... otherwise, all drug dealers caught carrying large amounts would just have to claim they didn't know what was inside the package, neither do they know who was the original sender... 

I imagine this excuse may work for officially recognized carriers... but we shouldn't expect an anonymous p2p postal network to have such recognition.

[Bitcoin Oz]

I do wonder how long it would be till nearly every bitdrop courier is a cop 

Dont really know a solution to that.

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

I do wonder how long it would be till nearly every bitdrop courier is a cop 

Dont really know a solution to that.

Yep. It's quite easy for them actually, drop the trap and wait to see if somebody shows up.

A way such risk could be mitigated is to require some level of reputation before being able to drop anything. This reputation could be "imported" from other sites, like #otc or SR. Also, having carried some packages dropped by others should build you some reputation, as cops might have legal constraints that forbid them to help the network before trying to attack it (not sure if it's the case though).
Perhaps people should never trust a package dropped by a 0-rep user. Want to use the network, build some reputation before. Quite limiting as constraint, and I'm not sure it's enough. If cops start building their rep before attacking, I wouldn't know any way to protect the users.

PS: Don't take me badly, I don't want to be a pessimist, I'd really like to see such service working. It just looks too difficult and dangerous though...

[420]

How the heck did I miss this gem of an idea. Love it and would definitely sign up as a curiour. And would also be interested in sending this way.

What kind of prices are we talking with it being gas price^mileage based?

probably the best aspect would be people who commute to work, deliver it on their path they'd normally take

[boonies4u]

Couldn't a sub-contractor system work? A large, recognized courier system would hire sub-contractors to handle deliveries. This way, even if the individual courier gets in trouble, the actual agency would have plausible deniability.

[edd]

Couldn't a sub-contractor system work? A large, recognized courier system would hire sub-contractors to handle deliveries. This way, even if the individual courier gets in trouble, the actual agency would have plausible deniability.

Why would anyone want to be a courier if it meant assuming responsibility for the package contents with absolutely no assurance it wasn't something illegal or dangerous?

[tgmarks]

Couldn't a sub-contractor system work? A large, recognized courier system would hire sub-contractors to handle deliveries. This way, even if the individual courier gets in trouble, the actual agency would have plausible deniability.

Why would anyone want to be a courier if it meant assuming responsibility for the package contents with absolutely no assurance it wasn't something illegal or dangerous?

I think that totally depends on how much people are willing to pay to ship it.  Although if I was making a ton of money to transport a little box, that could pretty clearly state that it's contents are expensive and dangerous.

Awesome project though.  Just read all 8 pages and can't believe I haven't seen this before.

[boonies4u]

Couldn't a sub-contractor system work? A large, recognized courier system would hire sub-contractors to handle deliveries. This way, even if the individual courier gets in trouble, the actual agency would have plausible deniability.

Why would anyone want to be a courier if it meant assuming responsibility for the package contents with absolutely no assurance it wasn't something illegal or dangerous?

I don't see what demand there would be for this service that did not involve delivering something stolen, illegal, dangerous, or at least sensitive.

I would rather the infrastructure remain and one person taking a fall, than having the entire system fall apart. Since you would be going through a legitimate courier, the client would also have plausible deniability for use, since the parent company has legitimate use.

[edd]

Couldn't a sub-contractor system work? A large, recognized courier system would hire sub-contractors to handle deliveries. This way, even if the individual courier gets in trouble, the actual agency would have plausible deniability.

Why would anyone want to be a courier if it meant assuming responsibility for the package contents with absolutely no assurance it wasn't something illegal or dangerous?

I don't see what demand there would be for this service that did not involve delivering something stolen, illegal, dangerous, or at least sensitive.

I would rather the infrastructure remain and one person taking a fall, than having the entire system fall apart. Since you would be going through a legitimate courier, the client would also have plausible deniability for use, since the parent company has legitimate use.

Now it seems like more of a dead drop system than a courier system.

[boonies4u]

Couldn't a sub-contractor system work? A large, recognized courier system would hire sub-contractors to handle deliveries. This way, even if the individual courier gets in trouble, the actual agency would have plausible deniability.

Why would anyone want to be a courier if it meant assuming responsibility for the package contents with absolutely no assurance it wasn't something illegal or dangerous?

I don't see what demand there would be for this service that did not involve delivering something stolen, illegal, dangerous, or at least sensitive.

I would rather the infrastructure remain and one person taking a fall, than having the entire system fall apart. Since you would be going through a legitimate courier, the client would also have plausible deniability for use, since the parent company has legitimate use.

Now it seems like more of a dead drop system than a courier system.

It could be dead drop between runners, that way the chances of one successfully ratting on one another is lowered. But the sender and the receiver would meet the runner for the first and last leg respectively.

[myrkul]

It could be dead drop between runners, that way the chances of one successfully ratting on one another is lowered. But the sender and the receiver would meet the runner for the first and last leg respectively.

Preferably not. Sender drops package, notifies network. Package is moved from drop to drop, eventually reaching destination drop. Network notifies recipient "You've got mail".

[boonies4u]

It could be dead drop between runners, that way the chances of one successfully ratting on one another is lowered. But the sender and the receiver would meet the runner for the first and last leg respectively.

Preferably not. Sender drops package, notifies network. Package is moved from drop to drop, eventually reaching destination drop. Network notifies recipient "You've got mail".

If I were wanting to have something sent, I probably would like to see it leaving my hands. Even if that meant staking out the pickup location. Last thing I would want is to be tempted at picking it back up, if I felt that it might not have been picked up.

Perhaps the pickup and delivery could be in person as an option, as a way to verify. That way both the first and last pair of runners and clients would submit confirmations of pickup and delivery respectively.

[myrkul]

nuh-uh. That's a security hole. If I'm sending something, I drop it, and then forget it. Once I'm home, I notify the network, and it's out of my hands.

[boonies4u]

nuh-uh. That's a security hole. If I'm sending something, I drop it, and then forget it. Once I'm home, I notify the network, and it's out of my hands.

So is this dead drop or courier? I was thinking of a hybrid.

[myrkul]

nuh-uh. That's a security hole. If I'm sending something, I drop it, and then forget it. Once I'm home, I notify the network, and it's out of my hands.

So is this dead drop or courier? I was thinking of a hybrid.

As I understand it, courier from drop to drop.

[myrkul]

I heard some noises about an insurance program which would take some of the stress out of that.

[Shadow383]

The system requires a lot of trust, leaving a deposit with the system for the first few deliveries while you build a reputation works there but if your doing blind drops you have to trust every step in the chain, either A didn't drop it or B was lying when he said it wasn't there.

A suggestion:

Give each runner a code to write down/print off.
They give code to the runner that delivers to them, and that person can then enter it on the site and get paid.

That way, you know roughly where in the chain the item is at all times.
If a runner isn't happy that they've received the right package (maybe send them all a picture of it when they confirm too) then they don't give the one that delivered to them their code, and the problem gets reported.

Then, when you take delivery, you give your receipt code to the last runner and when they enter it in the site to get paid the delivery gets marked as successful.
Thoughts?

[teknomunk]

I heard some noises about an insurance program which would take some of the stress out of that.

Perhaps something along the lines of a Surety bond could help?  The couriers each put up an amount of money (BTC) as collateral for carried packages.  This may also help with the repudation problem as it is easier to prove that money has been put in escrow than it is to check a person's honesty.  Also should help with bootstrapping repudation.  Not quite sure how it would work if a third-party grabs the package at a dead drop.

[Bitcoin Oz]

https://www.meemeep.com/  this is a similar idea.

[Bitcoin Oz]

I heard some noises about an insurance program which would take some of the stress out of that.

Perhaps something along the lines of a Surety bond could help?  The couriers each put up an amount of money (BTC) as collateral for carried packages.  This may also help with the repudation problem as it is easier to prove that money has been put in escrow than it is to check a person's honesty.  Also should help with bootstrapping repudation.  Not quite sure how it would work if a third-party grabs the package at a dead drop.

This is an obvious solution. There are ways to prove that the person is the same as the one who placed the bond too such as signed bitcoin messages. (They sign a message using the private keys to the bond address).

[myrkul]

I heard some noises about an insurance program which would take some of the stress out of that.

Perhaps something along the lines of a Surety bond could help?  The couriers each put up an amount of money (BTC) as collateral for carried packages.  This may also help with the reputation problem as it is easier to prove that money has been put in escrow than it is to check a person's honesty.  Also should help with bootstrapping reputation.  Not quite sure how it would work if a third-party grabs the package at a dead drop.

This is an obvious solution. There are ways to prove that the person is the same as the one who placed the bond too such as signed bitcoin messages. (They sign a message using the private keys to the bond address).

Great ideas.

[bbit]

Couldn't a sub-contractor system work? A large, recognized courier system would hire sub-contractors to handle deliveries. This way, even if the individual courier gets in trouble, the actual agency would have plausible deniability.

Why would anyone want to be a courier if it meant assuming responsibility for the package contents with absolutely no assurance it wasn't something illegal or dangerous?

this ^^

[HostFat]

this ^^

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=6279.msg95977#msg95977

[420]

https://www.meemeep.com/  this is a similar idea.

new plan

1. convince meemeep to use bitcoins

2. done

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

I heard some noises about an insurance program which would take some of the stress out of that.

Perhaps something along the lines of a Surety bond could help?  The couriers each put up an amount of money (BTC) as collateral for carried packages.  This may also help with the repudation problem as it is easier to prove that money has been put in escrow than it is to check a person's honesty.  Also should help with bootstrapping repudation.  Not quite sure how it would work if a third-party grabs the package at a dead drop.

The risk of an unrelated third-party stealing the package should be small, and easier to deal with.

The main problem for which I haven't yet seen a good answer is infiltrated law enforcement, particular those wanting to build reputation before attacking. Suppose they don't care about giving some money to the system (escrow that would be taken from them). And suppose they are willing to deliver a few packages before attacking.
How do you protect your runners from them when they decide to drop traps?

[420]

I heard some noises about an insurance program which would take some of the stress out of that.

Perhaps something along the lines of a Surety bond could help?  The couriers each put up an amount of money (BTC) as collateral for carried packages.  This may also help with the repudation problem as it is easier to prove that money has been put in escrow than it is to check a person's honesty.  Also should help with bootstrapping repudation.  Not quite sure how it would work if a third-party grabs the package at a dead drop.

The risk of an unrelated third-party stealing the package should be small, and easier to deal with.

The main problem for which I haven't yet seen a good answer is infiltrated law enforcement, particular those wanting to build reputation before attacking. Suppose they don't care about giving some money to the system (escrow that would be taken from them). And suppose they are willing to deliver a few packages before attacking.
How do you protect your runners from them when they decide to drop traps?

maybe a copy of the Constitution

[Bitcoin Oz]

https://www.meemeep.com/  this is a similar idea.

new plan

1. convince meemeep to use bitcoins

2. done

Not had a chance to read through all their info yet but if it looks like bitcoin could work with what they're doing then I'll probably get in touch with them in the next few days. I'm not a good spokesman though, if this is to be anything more than just brain farts it could do with someone taking lead and approaching them with a clear plan to discuss (I'm not volunteering, I'm no leader either).

The thread title suggests an underground courier service that knows its taking a risk, if thats whats wanted then approaching legitimate businesses is a bad idea. If a legitimate distributed courier network is the plan then the likelihood of infiltration by the cops is the same as any other courier system (postal service, UPS etc) and the couriers  legal liability for package contents is the same, ie. none.

I emailed them awhile ago asking about bitcoin but they said they had no plan to use it. Maybe if a few people ask they will reconsider.

[n8rwJeTt8TrrLKPa55eU]

Interesting new service which a P2P delivery network could utilize for pickups and dropoffs:

BufferBox Offers Open Platform Alternative to Amazon Lockers
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4358708

[Bjork]

I have a feeling that the primary reason for the success of this delivery network will be the option to have "dark packages" delivered.  Meemeep and other "legitimate" businesses would never do this, and thus will never be as successful as this could.  I think many of the silk road sellers would love to use something like this, and if you plan on partnering up with anyone SR would be a good place to

[frisco2]

Please note that there is 500 LTC in this account,

https://booster.io/tipjar/0c8xe2g

Who put it in there ? It is now a solid amount.

[420]

why Nefario a scammer?

going up norcal->Socal back a few times coming up if anyone needs deliveries

Legal stuff

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

why Nefario a scammer?

going up norcal->Socal back a few times coming up if anyone needs deliveries

Legal stuff

why is Nefario a scammer LOL

He closed down GLBSE.

[420]

why Nefario a scammer?

going up norcal->Socal back a few times coming up if anyone needs deliveries

Legal stuff

why is Nefario a scammer LOL

He closed down GLBSE.

oh. i didn't lose anyting to that

how long was that up?

[Uuno]

A few months ago. Where have you been 

[apetersson]

a guy in austria is actually launching a professional p2p transport system, though not based on bitcoin yet.

http://www.checkrobin.com/

Hannes Jagerhofer is behind this idea, he also launched the very successful checkfelix.com (flight search engine)

let him know this is is a good idea and he should implement bitcoin support

[Rassah]

I would still really love to see this idea become a reality, and just thought that one of the biggest obstacles to making that happen is establishing a network (same problem as establishing a mesh network). Easiest way to get over that problem is to piggy-back on an already established network. And then I remembered that we already have an established P2P physical network: LocalBitcoins.com.
Opinions on whether we should start bugging the localbitcoins guys, and get some coding done to incorporate exchange of stuff along with exchange of bitcoins?

[Rassah]

I would still really love to see this idea become a reality, and just thought that one of the biggest obstacles to making that happen is establishing a network (same problem as establishing a mesh network). Easiest way to get over that problem is to piggy-back on an already established network. And then I remembered that we already have an established P2P physical network: LocalBitcoins.com.
Opinions on whether we should start bugging the localbitcoins guys, and get some coding done to incorporate exchange of stuff along with exchange of bitcoins?

I'd guess that would stand a good chance of getting off the ground, imho establishing a platform for the network to run would come first though. Been keeping an eye on whats happening with Open Transactions as that might make a good platform and it looks like its developing fast. Once something anyone can just download and use is running there then similar bounties towards integrating a courier network into the phone app might work.

Maybe, but, again, that's just piggy-backing on the OT network, which may be a bit more difficult, since a lot of OT will be for anonymous type stuff.The reason I thought of LocalBitcoin is because they already have a network within physical space. Should I go ahead and contact the guy running it to see what he thinks?

[Rassah]

Got a reply saying they love the idea, but that they don't have the resources or manpower. I replied asking for clarification on whether they mean they lack resources to get it coded and set up, or to deal with the resulting po-po fallout afterwards.

[Rassah]

Final reply

Hi!

Right now our hands are so full of urgent matters that any distraction from the main service would be disastrous. However, we have plans to open certain aspects of our platform, so utilizing some parts of our platform (reputation system and location databases etc.) in other kind of services are not completely out of question in longer term. Basically we would provide API or something like that, and community could use these to build their own services.

Br,
Nikolaus

[HostFat]

Another attempt
http://blog.uber.com/RUSH

[Rassah]

Another attempt
http://blog.uber.com/RUSH

If it doesn't involve parkour over building rooftops, they're not doing it right

[HostFat]

Maybe this discussion should be moved to "Project Development"

[pornluver]

There is a system like this that I've thought.

It's centralized. But people can order one thing to be sent to another anonymously. All they need is an anonymous phone number

[ICOGuide]

Non-robotic courier system. You mean traditional delivery?