[XC][XCurrency] Decentralised Trustless Privacy Platform / Encrypted XChat / Pos

[policymaker]

well it looks like they cant crack down v1.5 that dev provided so they have to resort to other measures. I guess XC forum much more targetable than the BTC talk itself

I think you don't realize why the forum is under ddos? are you stupid?  

@Teka now you know why your forum is under ddos. policymaker is a nice example.

And I know why we r discussing such things right now, you r the best example.

[synechist]

Hi everyone. I thought I'd make some sense of the work that Chaeplin has done on XC. (Summary: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=631052.msg7270701#msg7270701.)

First, this is what ATCSECURE provided:

• Sender address: ?
• Wallet B: XYyMMG1VQHyRhAQWGdRQ9AEfdwSuG7w18G
• Wallet C: XZvkTGD9hMiRuMByqCkHgRTNAu5J5fWnJV
• Recipient address: XVrqrpe2ZDmykAnjcAHN6McbuDEjBZSvRZ
• Payment process: "The mixer tells the [sender address] to send coins to wallet b, however wallet C is used to send coins to the [recipient address], there is NO link from wallet B to wallet C unless somebody manually moves the coins from C to B."
• Aspect of payment being tested: the assertion that there is no link in the Blockchain from Wallet B to Wallet C. Testers are required to falsify this claim in order to receive a bounty.

This is what Chaeplin did:

1. He utilised a technique known as "Satoshi Spam," which is a matter of sending tiny amounts to addresses. One can use this to watch where the money flows in order to work out which addresses have common ownership.

2. Satoshi Spam is based on the pre-coinjoin principle that, given a transaction with multiple inputs and a single output, it follows that the inputs are owned by the same entity. For example, if 7 addresses were spammed with BTC 0.000001 and then all of these addresses were used to pay the resulting amount to another address, one can thereby conclude that the 7 addresses are owned by one person, and in all likelihood are in the same wallet.

3. However, coinjoin falsifies the assumption behind Satoshi Spam because coinjoin uses input addresses owned by several parties are to pay one or more recipient addresses. Thus if coinjoin is even partly implemented for a given coin, it becomes false to assume that one party owns the input addresses, since it's possible that there could be several owners.

4. Chaeplin implemented Satoshi Spam by sending small amounts to Wallet B and Wallet C.

5. His intention was to watch the blockchain to see where the amounts he sent to Wallets B and C would end up when the wallets spent the money.

6. His observation of the blockchain revealed the following information:
    - Wallets B and C sent payments somewhere, but the outputs are not given in the blockchain
    - Wallets B and C also paid transaction fees for the payments, but the addresses they're paid to are not given in the blockchain

7. With this information, Chaeplin constructs the following account:
    - Once Wallets B and C spend the money sent to them, the transaction is recorded in the blockchain, though the recipient address is not.
    - Nonetheless, he has a record that Wallets B and C spent the money.
    - On one occasion, Wallet B spends money, and at a similar time, Wallet C pays a transaction fee.
    - Therefore Wallets B and C are owned by the same entity.

8. However this is obviously false, because:
    - there's no record in the blockchain linking Wallet B's transaction with Wallet C's transaction fee.
    - there's no record in the blockchain that a single address received the money that Wallets B and C spent.

Therefore Chaeplin did not establish proof of a link between Wallets B and C.



Additional comments:

- This analysis is tentative. I might be incorrect about what Chaeplin did. He does not explain why he pastes code and blockchain records in his comments, so it's impossible to be certain about what is argument actually is. I've tried to reconstruct his thought process from what he posted.

- Chaeplin appears to have only a vague grasp of the strategy behind Satoshi Spam. Just as it is ineffective when coinjoin is implemented, it is ineffective when output addresses are not shown, as with XC.

- Chaeplin has clearly shown that a payment from Wallet B and another payment (probably a transaction fee) from Wallet C co-occurred.

- However Chaeplin conflates co-occurrence with a "hard link". Just because a payment from one address and a fee from another address appear in a blockchain at similar times, it does not entail that the two are associated in any way. Even if the blockchain was brand new and consisted of only these two payments, this implication would not be established. Co-occurrence is categorically distinct from a record that one address paid another.

- However in my opinion it would be wrong to conclude that Chaeplin is a fudder, since we do not have a "hard link" proving his intentions. There is evidence, sure, but let's not make Chaeplin's mistake of conflating possibility with certainty. We would act honourably by giving him the benefit of the doubt. And in acting honourably, we raise the ethic of this thread, which makes XC's community more attractive. Let's do XC proud.

[Perl++]

well it looks like they cant crack down v1.5 that dev provided so they have to resort to other measures. I guess XC forum much more targetable than the BTC talk itself

I think you don't realize why the forum is under ddos? are you stupid?  

@Teka now you know why your forum is under ddos. policymaker is a nice example.

And I know why we r discussing such things right now, you r the best example.

Some people in this community know the truth, you are a troll.

constant drk namedropping has to stop, its bringing trolls in the thread polluting it which results in an unatractive environement for new investors , don't you get this.
plus its a sign of weaknes. XCs goal isn't beating drk, its beeing the best solution for privacy in crypto no matter the competition. concentrate your enthusiasm and efforts on XC not other coins.

+1

[ssmc2]

- However in my opinion it would be wrong to conclude that Chaeplin is a fudder, since we do not have a "hard link" proving his intentions. There is evidence, sure, but let's not make Chaeplin's mistake of conflating possibility with certainty. We would act honourably by giving him the benefit of the doubt. And in acting honourably, we raise the ethic of this thread, which makes XC's community more attractive. Let's do XC proud.

^ +1000

I don't have enough tech knowledge to comment on the analysis but either way, this last paragraph is spot on. Let's take the high road people.

[JesstersDead]

- However in my opinion it would be wrong to conclude that Chaeplin is a fudder, since we do not have a "hard link" proving his intentions. There is evidence, sure, but let's not make Chaeplin's mistake of conflating possibility with certainty. We would act honourably by giving him the benefit of the doubt. And in acting honourably, we raise the ethic of this thread, which makes XC's community more attractive. Let's do XC proud.

+1

Thanks for saying this.

[hoertest]

Hi everyone. I thought I'd make some sense of the work that Chaeplin has done on XC. (Summary: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=631052.msg7270701#msg7270701.)

First, this is what ATCSECURE provided:

• Sender address: ?
• Wallet B: XYyMMG1VQHyRhAQWGdRQ9AEfdwSuG7w18G
• Wallet C: XZvkTGD9hMiRuMByqCkHgRTNAu5J5fWnJV
• Recipient address: XVrqrpe2ZDmykAnjcAHN6McbuDEjBZSvRZ
• Payment process: "The mixer tells the [sender address] to send coins to wallet b, however wallet C is used to send coins to the [recipient address], there is NO link from wallet B to wallet C unless somebody manually moves the coins from C to B."
• Aspect of payment being tested: the assertion that there is no link in the Blockchain from Wallet B to Wallet C. Testers are required to falsify this claim in order to receive a bounty.

This is what Chaeplin did:

1. He utilised a technique known as "Satoshi Spam," which is a matter of sending tiny amounts to addresses. One can use this to watch where the money flows in order to work out which addresses have common ownership.

2. Satoshi Spam is based on the pre-coinjoin principle that, given a transaction with multiple inputs and a single output, it follows that the inputs are owned by the same entity. For example, if 7 addresses were spammed with BTC 0.000001 and then all of these addresses were used to pay the resulting amount to another address, one can thereby conclude that the 7 addresses are owned by one person, and in all likelihood are in the same wallet.

3. However, coinjoin falsifies the assumption behind Satoshi Spam because coinjoin uses input addresses owned by several parties are to pay one or more recipient addresses. Thus if coinjoin is even partly implemented for a given coin, it becomes false to assume that one party owns the input addresses, since it's possible that there could be several owners.

4. Chaeplin implemented Satoshi Spam by sending small amounts to Wallet B and Wallet C.

5. His intention was to watch the blockchain to see where the amounts he sent to Wallets B and C would end up when the wallets spent the money.

6. His observation of the blockchain revealed the following information:
    - Wallets B and C sent payments somewhere, but the outputs are not given in the blockchain
    - Wallets B and C also paid transaction fees for the payments, but the addresses they're paid to are not given in the blockchain

7. With this information, Chaeplin constructs the following account:
    - Once Wallets B and C spend the money sent to them, the transaction is recorded in the blockchain, though the recipient address is not.
    - Nonetheless, he has a record that Wallets B and C spent the money.
    - On one occasion, Wallet B spends money, and at a similar time, Wallet C pays a transaction fee.
    - Therefore Wallets B and C are owned by the same entity.

8. However this is obviously false, because:
    - there's no record in the blockchain linking Wallet B's transaction with Wallet C's transaction fee.
    - there's no record in the blockchain that a single address received the money that Wallets B and C spent.

Therefore Chaeplin did not establish proof of a link between Wallets B and C.



Additional comments:

- This analysis is tentative. I might be incorrect about what Chaeplin did. He does not explain why he pastes code and blockchain records in his comments, so it's impossible to be certain about what is argument actually is. I've tried to reconstruct his thought process from what he posted.

- Chaeplin appears to have only a vague grasp of the strategy behind Satoshi Spam. Just as it is ineffective when coinjoin is implemented, it is ineffective when output addresses are not shown, as with XC.

- Chaeplin has clearly shown that a payment from Wallet B and another payment (probably a transaction fee) from Wallet C co-occurred.

- However Chaeplin conflates co-occurrence with a "hard link". Just because a payment from one address and a fee from another address appear in a blockchain at similar times, it does not entail that the two are associated in any way. Even if the blockchain was brand new and consisted of only these two payments, this implication would not be established. Co-occurrence is categorically distinct from a record that one address paid another.

- However in my opinion it would be wrong to conclude that Chaeplin is a fudder, since we do not have a "hard link" proving his intentions. There is evidence, sure, but let's not make Chaeplin's mistake of conflating possibility with certainty. We would act honourably by giving him the benefit of the doubt. And in acting honourably, we raise the ethic of this thread, which makes XC's community more attractive. Let's do XC proud.

great summary, given the fact that he backed out of the newest challange for the multipath beta i think his intentions are clear now. but that doesn'T metter after all, the whole process helped XC finally but since that wasn't his personal intention  (rather the opposite) there is no need for a thank you or any kind of forgiving gesture either.

the status quo is this: the only guy who could find the sender with a method that wasn 100% fair play anyway can no longer find it now with REV1.5 !!!

the test is still running so i don't celebrate before the final wistle

[hoertest]

Some people in this community know the truth, you are a troll.

constant drk namedropping has to stop, its bringing trolls in the thread polluting it which results in an unatractive environement for new investors , don't you get this.
plus its a sign of weaknes. XCs goal isn't beating drk, its beeing the best solution for privacy in crypto no matter the competition. concentrate your enthusiasm and efforts on XC not other coins.

+1

[/quote]

You hold XC?

[synechist]

[snip]

great summary, given the fact that he backed out of the newest challange for the multipath beta i think his intentions are clear now. but that doesn'T metter after all, the whole process helped XC finally but since that wasn't his personal intention  (rather the opposite) there is no need for a thank you or any kind of forgiving gesture either.

the status quo is this: the only guy who could find the sender with a method that wasn 100% fair play anyway can no longer find it now with REV1.5 !!!

the test is still running so i don't celebrate before the final wistle

Chaeplin's stated reason for not testing the new release is that he believes ATCSECURE did not acknowledge the hard link Chaeplin provided.

I think that we are obliged to give Chaeplin the benefit of the doubt here regarding his beliefs, since we have no proof of the contrary. If I were in his position and genuinely believed that I'd been hard done by, I'd also be unwilling to continue.

It's just unfortunate that he's mistaken in his belief. That's all it comes down to, in my opinion.


As an aside, I think it's a good idea to be gracious to one's opponents. It makes one a good sport. We gain nothing by being victorious and mean.

[ethereal73]

Some people in this community know the truth, you are a troll.

constant drk namedropping has to stop, its bringing trolls in the thread polluting it which results in an unatractive environement for new investors , don't you get this.
plus its a sign of weaknes. XCs goal isn't beating drk, its beeing the best solution for privacy in crypto no matter the competition. concentrate your enthusiasm and efforts on XC not other coins.

+1

You hold XC?
[/quote]

Staat je naam "Hoertest" ook op je geboortekaartje eigenlijk

Doesnt matter what you say overhere, they won't see the damage they do to there own community.
There seems to be a moderator around here, but i guess he is on vacation, or has put thumbtacks in his eyes, and not his contact lenses.

[tianfuzi]

Has lost popularity XC , XC -bye

[hoertest]

[snip]

great summary, given the fact that he backed out of the newest challange for the multipath beta i think his intentions are clear now. but that doesn'T metter after all, the whole process helped XC finally but since that wasn't his personal intention  (rather the opposite) there is no need for a thank you or any kind of forgiving gesture either.

the status quo is this: the only guy who could find the sender with a method that wasn 100% fair play anyway can no longer find it now with REV1.5 !!!

the test is still running so i don't celebrate before the final wistle

Chaeplin's stated reason for not testing the new release is that he believes ATCSECURE did not acknowledge the hard link Chaeplin provided.

I think that we are obliged to give Chaeplin the benefit of the doubt here regarding his beliefs, since we have no proof of the contrary. If I were in his position and genuinely believed that I'd been hard done by, I'd also be unwilling to continue.

It's just unfortunate that he's mistaken in his belief. That's all it comes down to, in my opinion.


As an aside, I think it's a good idea to be gracious to one's opponents. It makes one a good sport. We gain nothing by being victorious and mean.

come on , he allwys kept going without bountys or any acknowledgement and the moment his method doesn't work anymore he plays the emotionally hurt? whatever. i also think its not the moment to confront him but i can understand some people can'T hold back right now.
just be happy for the achievments of the whole XC team.

well done boys.

[SushiChef]

Staat je naam "Hoertest" ook op je geboortekaartje eigenlijk

Doesnt matter what you say overhere, they won't see the damage they do to there own community.
There seems to be a moderator around here, but i guess he is on vacation, or has put thumbtacks in his eyes, and not his contact lenses.

hij is een mof

[ethereal73]

Some people in this community know the truth, you are a troll.

constant drk namedropping has to stop, its bringing trolls in the thread polluting it which results in an unatractive environement for new investors , don't you get this.
plus its a sign of weaknes. XCs goal isn't beating drk, its beeing the best solution for privacy in crypto no matter the competition. concentrate your enthusiasm and efforts on XC not other coins.

+1

You hold XC?

Staat je naam "Hoertest" ook op je geboortekaartje eigenlijk

Doesnt matter what you say overhere, they won't see the damage they do to there own community.
There seems to be a moderator around here, but i guess he is on vacation, or has put thumbtacks in his eyes, and not his contact lenses.

hij is een mof
[/quote]

Is dat gebied nou nog niet geannexeerd?

[Teka]

So the plan originally was to keep this unmoderated but after endless requests and deep consideration this will be moderated. However, I will advise that if users are looking for a more relevant or technical or overall better discussion they should head over to our forum when its up.

[Perl++]

me? yes i hold XC.

[synechist]

[snip]

great summary, given the fact that he backed out of the newest challange for the multipath beta i think his intentions are clear now. but that doesn'T metter after all, the whole process helped XC finally but since that wasn't his personal intention  (rather the opposite) there is no need for a thank you or any kind of forgiving gesture either.

the status quo is this: the only guy who could find the sender with a method that wasn 100% fair play anyway can no longer find it now with REV1.5 !!!

the test is still running so i don't celebrate before the final wistle

Chaeplin's stated reason for not testing the new release is that he believes ATCSECURE did not acknowledge the hard link Chaeplin provided.

I think that we are obliged to give Chaeplin the benefit of the doubt here regarding his beliefs, since we have no proof of the contrary. If I were in his position and genuinely believed that I'd been hard done by, I'd also be unwilling to continue.

It's just unfortunate that he's mistaken in his belief. That's all it comes down to, in my opinion.


As an aside, I think it's a good idea to be gracious to one's opponents. It makes one a good sport. We gain nothing by being victorious and mean.

come on , he allwys kept going without bountys or any acknowledgement and the moment his method doesn't work anymore he plays the emotionally hurt? whatever. i also think its not the moment to confront him but i can understand some people can'T hold back right now.
just be happy for the achievments of the whole XC team.

well done boys.

You're right: we have no reason to believe that he's telling the truth. But what I mean is that we have no proof that he's not telling the truth, so it's better for us if we just accept his reasons.

[hoertest]

Some people in this community know the truth, you are a troll.

constant drk namedropping has to stop, its bringing trolls in the thread polluting it which results in an unatractive environement for new investors , don't you get this.
plus its a sign of weaknes. XCs goal isn't beating drk, its beeing the best solution for privacy in crypto no matter the competition. concentrate your enthusiasm and efforts on XC not other coins.

+1

You hold XC?

Staat je naam "Hoertest" ook op je geboortekaartje eigenlijk

Doesnt matter what you say overhere, they won't see the damage they do to there own community.
There seems to be a moderator around here, but i guess he is on vacation, or has put thumbtacks in his eyes, and not his contact lenses.

[/quote]

I'm german , congrats by the way , see you in the final  ,
honestly i think this whole community thing gets overplayed in discussion boards, community is one part of the puzzle but by far not the most important. if xc thread would be 100% assholes which its not by any means but XC is still the best coin with its features guess what. i wouldn't hold one coin less.

when you by a car do you buy the best one or the one with the nicest community? You re probably surprised to hear that from me since i advocate a civiliced discussion. i do but i don't base my investment decission on it to a degree some people here seem to.

I hold XC cause XC is leader in decentralised private cryptocurrency at a bargain price ! you wanna miss out on that because of the current tone of a forum thread?
thats crasy

[hoertest]

me? yes i hold XC.

good decision 

[chaeplin]

8. However this is obviously false, because:
    - there's no record in the blockchain linking Wallet B's transaction with Wallet C's transaction fee.
    - there's no record in the blockchain that a single address received the money that Wallets B and C spent.

Therefore Chaeplin did not establish proof of a link between Wallets B and C.

Your statement is wrong.

You explain exactly, spamming and common ownership.
Xc hasn't implemented coinjoin yet(May be I am wrong)


So, if outputs of two tx are spent in a single tx, B and C is belong to single entity.

And I provided it.
 

Do you think it's fee ? Fee is not appeared in input

This is the single tx, I provided. check blcok no. 29113

http://chainz.cryptoid.info/xc/tx.dws?97299.htm

Check input index 14, 18

Code:

ndex	Previous output	Address	Amount
14	d191290208e3...:1	XYyMMG1VQHyRhAQWGdRQ9AEfdwSuG7w18G	0.03 XC
18	c352aeeeaea9...:1	XYyMMG1VQHyRhAQWGdRQ9AEfdwSuG7w18G	0.003 XC

This is previous output, I spammed.
http://chainz.cryptoid.info/xc/tx.dws?96523.htm
http://chainz.cryptoid.info/xc/tx.dws?96699.htm

EDIT: original spamming
http://chainz.cryptoid.info/xc/tx.dws?96522.htm
http://chainz.cryptoid.info/xc/tx.dws?96523.htm

Two linked address
http://chainz.cryptoid.info/xc/address.dws?XZvkTGD9hMiRuMByqCkHgRTNAu5J5fWnJV.htm
http://chainz.cryptoid.info/xc/address.dws?XYyMMG1VQHyRhAQWGdRQ9AEfdwSuG7w18G.htm

Check block 29111, 29113



I have showed XC community what is input, what is output,
what is change address, what is listaddressgroupings, how to read block explorer.

I am ordinary people, not extra.

I learned how to read block explorer.

So many people in drk thread have taught me.

I have learned every day.



I have proved by spamming.
And there is possibility of linking by Xnode owner(unintentionally spend coins)

I have written these in uxc thread.


XC is yours. Do your job.

[KimmyF]

[snip]

great summary, given the fact that he backed out of the newest challange for the multipath beta i think his intentions are clear now. but that doesn'T metter after all, the whole process helped XC finally but since that wasn't his personal intention  (rather the opposite) there is no need for a thank you or any kind of forgiving gesture either.

the status quo is this: the only guy who could find the sender with a method that wasn 100% fair play anyway can no longer find it now with REV1.5 !!!

the test is still running so i don't celebrate before the final wistle

Chaeplin's stated reason for not testing the new release is that he believes ATCSECURE did not acknowledge the hard link Chaeplin provided.

I think that we are obliged to give Chaeplin the benefit of the doubt here regarding his beliefs, since we have no proof of the contrary. If I were in his position and genuinely believed that I'd been hard done by, I'd also be unwilling to continue.

It's just unfortunate that he's mistaken in his belief. That's all it comes down to, in my opinion.


As an aside, I think it's a good idea to be gracious to one's opponents. It makes one a good sport. We gain nothing by being victorious and mean.

come on , he allwys kept going without bountys or any acknowledgement and the moment his method doesn't work anymore he plays the emotionally hurt? whatever. i also think its not the moment to confront him but i can understand some people can'T hold back right now.
just be happy for the achievments of the whole XC team.

well done boys.

You're right: we have no reason to believe that he's telling the truth. But what I mean is that we have no proof that he's not telling the truth, so it's better for us if we just accept his reasons.

Chaeplin reminds me of many of my co-workers. Believe tech and acknowledgement are his motives. In my mind he did xc a great favor and feel sad so many kids here feld the need to insult him.
Now go find someone with those skills willing to do the same work in a relative small circle.
a big bounty will bring them, together with a lot of publicity so there is now no more room for errors for the dev.

Thanks kids, for nothing!