[ANN] [CLOAK] Cloakcoin | No Premine | X13 | Decentralized Market and PoSA

[smokim87]

Could we get some Proof about POSa ? maybe some videos like we saw last times?


thank you dev!

Its harder to post vids about POSA due to it being mostly code.

On the other hand x11joe the dev working on onemarket will be posting tomorrow some videos of onemarket. Tomorrow POSA will continue beta testing, there's a few bugs needed to be fixed with the windows version of the wallet that uses POSA.

I'm sure an Update will be posted Monday morning (timezone where thedagger lives).

[1714924260]

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[1714924260]

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[newb4now]

Could we get some Proof about POSa ? maybe some videos like we saw last times?


thank you dev!

Someone posted a screenshot on the cloaktalk forums

http://www.cloaktalk.org/t/can-anyone-give-me-the-uk-time-of-when-posa-will-be-released/47/10

[Liquid71]

I'm not the developer working on the PoSA side of things, so for those wondering, the other Dev is working on it, its in the testing phase now.

So I'm working on the OneMarket Interface right now and just realized that we need some community guidelines for this.

So I need the community to come together and come up with a general list of rules for what listings we decide are acceptable and which are not.  Ultimately, the reviewers will decide, but they would be wise to follow the guidelines since most the other reviewers would.

I'll put some sample guidelines, so people don't wonder why their listing was not accepted.

OneMarket does include Trustless Escrow, but this will not help for bigger purchases like cars, as putting down double money for the seller and buyer is impractical here.  Therefore, for bigger purchases someone will need to take up the charge for creating OneMarkets first Escrow Service to facilitate transactions for buyers and sellers.  Good business opportunity here for someone, whoever wants to start working on that website .

::Community Guidelines::

Items with a * are subject to interpretation by the reviewer and considered risky listings to attempt to get on the network and you will need to supply evidence to prove your claim that your listing is legal where you reside.

- No Violence (This is NEVER accepted)
- No Illegal Drugs* (Again, legal in certain locations, marijuana in Colorado, USA for example)
- No Prostitution* (Certain locations this is legal, Nevada, USA for example)
- No Illegal Weapons* (Buying certain types of firearms might be legal, Texas, USA for example)

This is what I could think off very shortly off the top of my head.  Please feel free to add to this.  I'll edit this thread with suggestions.

Maybe also a catchall that nothing illegal may be bought or sold.  The last thing you guys want is criminal charges that you helped set up another Silk Road, so the clearer you make it from the start that this is intended to not be that, the better.

But as long as we have your attention, I have some other suggestions.  I read the whitepaper, but it has been a while, so I aoplogize in advanced if any of this is addressed there.  Also I apologize if some of this is impossible due to the nature of anonymous wallets.  But just some ideas.

* do not overlook the value of ratings - buyers should be able to rate their sellers and probably vice versa.  I think this is the strongest assurance ebay buyers have.  To me, this is more valuable than the trustless escrow.  Trustless escrow is good, but the problem is if your run into a difficult person and you guys just can't agree, you both lose your escrow and you both end up losers, and I guess as a buyer it is some consolation knowing the seller lost money too, but it is still not a good situation

* there should be a history of how many successful transactions parties have

Also, I have some questions on the interface.  How will the listings be organized?  Will search work well?  With all of this being decentralized, will there be a lot of lag bringing up listings?

I thought about ratings, and there is some simple ratings involved, such as number of failed/successful transactions with trustless escrow.  The problem with ratings is they can so easily be manipulated.  People will just pay for an item to themselves to give themselves a good rating. What use will ratings be then?

I was thinking therefore of leaving the ratings up to the listees in their posts.  One could link to a third party trusted site that the community agrees upon in their listing post and people could view the ratings there.  If anyone has an idea for a p2p style rating system that can not be abused I'm open.  I could not think of anything on the initial concept for OneMarket.  The entire team is always open to ideas though.

I don't invest in crypto looking for the next Ebay. To me the idea of a decentralized market is just that, decentralized. There should be centralized control against private transactions between two consenting parties. If it doesn't cause harm to a third party (such as childporn or weapons of mass destruction ect.) then I don't think OneMarket or any decentralized market should step in and say what is allowed and what isn't, we already have Ebay for that.
The Whitepaper made a great case for the onejury review system to prevent morally offensive listings, such as childporn which nobody would want to use a market where that was available. As for what's "legal" in certain parts of the world I don't think it has anything to do with the market since it's a global market free to allow free market transactions and offer economic freedom without the threat of interference from government control and manipulation. And no I'm not talking about the U.S. and buying pot on Onemarket, but most countries don't have the economic freedoms we enjoy in the U.S. so it's not just about drugs.

I saw another comment saying they don't want to see the government come after cloak if drugs are sold. That's like saying the guy who invented torrents should be held liable for all the illegal movies downloaded breaking copyright laws. Nobody owns the market, it's part of the network. The government is free to go after whomever they think is breaking their laws but the developers aren't doing anything illegal and neither is cloak.

I invested in Cloak because of the whitepaper on Onemarket. The whitepapers on anonymous transactions were good too but the OneMarket paper really sold me on the developers and their vision for an autonomous market layered on top of a coin network that also supported anonymous transactions.

Sorry for the rambling, I know these aren't set in stone rules that ban certian listings or anything. I just have a strong libertarian viewpoint and love the idea of the Onejury system where the users of cloak decide what's listed and don't see the need to worry about what's legal where, what regulations and sales tax and jurisdiction and..you get the idea, I just like freedom for the people to decide.

[Liquid71]

I'm not the developer working on the PoSA side of things, so for those wondering, the other Dev is working on it, its in the testing phase now.

So I'm working on the OneMarket Interface right now and just realized that we need some community guidelines for this.

So I need the community to come together and come up with a general list of rules for what listings we decide are acceptable and which are not.  Ultimately, the reviewers will decide, but they would be wise to follow the guidelines since most the other reviewers would.

I'll put some sample guidelines, so people don't wonder why their listing was not accepted.

OneMarket does include Trustless Escrow, but this will not help for bigger purchases like cars, as putting down double money for the seller and buyer is impractical here.  Therefore, for bigger purchases someone will need to take up the charge for creating OneMarkets first Escrow Service to facilitate transactions for buyers and sellers.  Good business opportunity here for someone, whoever wants to start working on that website .

::Community Guidelines::

Items with a * are subject to interpretation by the reviewer and considered risky listings to attempt to get on the network and you will need to supply evidence to prove your claim that your listing is legal where you reside.

- No Violence (This is NEVER accepted)
- No Illegal Drugs* (Again, legal in certain locations, marijuana in Colorado, USA for example)
- No Prostitution* (Certain locations this is legal, Nevada, USA for example)
- No Illegal Weapons* (Buying certain types of firearms might be legal, Texas, USA for example)

This is what I could think off very shortly off the top of my head.  Please feel free to add to this.  I'll edit this thread with suggestions.

Maybe also a catchall that nothing illegal may be bought or sold.  The last thing you guys want is criminal charges that you helped set up another Silk Road, so the clearer you make it from the start that this is intended to not be that, the better.

But as long as we have your attention, I have some other suggestions.  I read the whitepaper, but it has been a while, so I aoplogize in advanced if any of this is addressed there.  Also I apologize if some of this is impossible due to the nature of anonymous wallets.  But just some ideas.

* do not overlook the value of ratings - buyers should be able to rate their sellers and probably vice versa.  I think this is the strongest assurance ebay buyers have.  To me, this is more valuable than the trustless escrow.  Trustless escrow is good, but the problem is if your run into a difficult person and you guys just can't agree, you both lose your escrow and you both end up losers, and I guess as a buyer it is some consolation knowing the seller lost money too, but it is still not a good situation

* there should be a history of how many successful transactions parties have

Also, I have some questions on the interface.  How will the listings be organized?  Will search work well?  With all of this being decentralized, will there be a lot of lag bringing up listings?

I thought about ratings, and there is some simple ratings involved, such as number of failed/successful transactions with trustless escrow.  The problem with ratings is they can so easily be manipulated.  People will just pay for an item to themselves to give themselves a good rating. What use will ratings be then?

I was thinking therefore of leaving the ratings up to the listees in their posts.  One could link to a third party trusted site that the community agrees upon in their listing post and people could view the ratings there.  If anyone has an idea for a p2p style rating system that can not be abused I'm open.  I could not think of anything on the initial concept for OneMarket.  The entire team is always open to ideas though.

There was an outline for ratings in the whtiepaper and the age of address seems to help prevent ratings manipulation. It's not full proof but that along with the escrow should help keep sellers honest.

[karkkis]

I invested in Cloak because of the whitepaper on Onemarket. The whitepapers on anonymous transactions were good too but the OneMarket paper really sold me on the developers and their vision for an autonomous market layered on top of a coin network that also supported anonymous transactions.

Sorry for the rambling, I know these aren't set in stone rules that ban certian listings or anything. I just have a strong libertarian viewpoint and love the idea of the Onejury system where the users of cloak decide what's listed and don't see the need to worry about what's legal where, what regulations and sales tax and jurisdiction and..you get the idea, I just like freedom for the people to decide.

+1

Indeed, we don't need a new ebay. We need a "light" version of the Silk Road, where people deal between people freely and anonymously, without the fear of the government, customs etc. coming after you or your transactions. This is how we attract real money, and real usage. If it is decentralized, nobody can blame the cloak team for inventing a platform, where people make their own decisions.

Freedom all the way. Onejury can then decide where the line goes... probably no-one wants to have child porn, firearms or hard drugs sold out there. However, I can see a massive support for selling marijuana.

One thing bothers me though, and sorry for patronising all the teens reading this, but I just wonder if there is any way to prevent underage people from buying narcotics or alcohol through the cloak market? I don't want to read headlines like "bitcoin booze blinds 3 minors"...

[Coolstoryteller]

I'm not the developer working on the PoSA side of things, so for those wondering, the other Dev is working on it, its in the testing phase now.

Maybe also a catchall that nothing illegal may be bought or sold.  The last thing you guys want is criminal charges that you helped set up another Silk Road, so the clearer you make it from the start that this is intended to not be that, the better.

But as long as we have your attention, I have some other suggestions.  I read the whitepaper, but it has been a while, so I aoplogize in advanced if any of this is addressed there.  Also I apologize if some of this is impossible due to the nature of anonymous wallets.  But just some ideas.

* do not overlook the value of ratings - buyers should be able to rate their sellers and probably vice versa.  I think this is the strongest assurance ebay buyers have.  To me, this is more valuable than the trustless escrow.  Trustless escrow is good, but the problem is if your run into a difficult person and you guys just can't agree, you both lose your escrow and you both end up losers, and I guess as a buyer it is some consolation knowing the seller lost money too, but it is still not a good situation

* there should be a history of how many successful transactions parties have

Also, I have some questions on the interface.  How will the listings be organized?  Will search work well?  With all of this being decentralized, will there be a lot of lag bringing up listings?

I thought about ratings, and there is some simple ratings involved, such as number of failed/successful transactions with trustless escrow.  The problem with ratings is they can so easily be manipulated.  People will just pay for an item to themselves to give themselves a good rating. What use will ratings be then?

I was thinking therefore of leaving the ratings up to the listees in their posts.  One could link to a third party trusted site that the community agrees upon in their listing post and people could view the ratings there.  If anyone has an idea for a p2p style rating system that can not be abused I'm open.  I could not think of anything on the initial concept for OneMarket.  The entire team is always open to ideas though.

I don't invest in crypto looking for the next Ebay. To me the idea of a decentralized market is just that, decentralized. There should be centralized control against private transactions between two consenting parties. If it doesn't cause harm to a third party (such as childporn or weapons of mass destruction ect.) then I don't think OneMarket or any decentralized market should step in and say what is allowed and what isn't, we already have Ebay for that.
The Whitepaper made a great case for the onejury review system to prevent morally offensive listings, such as childporn which nobody would want to use a market where that was available. As for what's "legal" in certain parts of the world I don't think it has anything to do with the market since it's a global market free to allow free market transactions and offer economic freedom without the threat of interference from government control and manipulation. And no I'm not talking about the U.S. and buying pot on Onemarket, but most countries don't have the economic freedoms we enjoy in the U.S. so it's not just about drugs.

I saw another comment saying they don't want to see the government come after cloak if drugs are sold. That's like saying the guy who invented torrents should be held liable for all the illegal movies downloaded breaking copyright laws. Nobody owns the market, it's part of the network. The government is free to go after whomever they think is breaking their laws but the developers aren't doing anything illegal and neither is cloak.

I invested in Cloak because of the whitepaper on Onemarket. The whitepapers on anonymous transactions were good too but the OneMarket paper really sold me on the developers and their vision for an autonomous market layered on top of a coin network that also supported anonymous transactions.

Sorry for the rambling, I know these aren't set in stone rules that ban certian listings or anything. I just have a strong libertarian viewpoint and love the idea of the Onejury system where the users of cloak decide what's listed and don't see the need to worry about what's legal where, what regulations and sales tax and jurisdiction and..you get the idea, I just like freedom for the people to decide.

Hey Liquid,

I agree with the majority of your post; However, I think you meant there "shouldn't be controls" between two consenting parties or maybe I am mistaken. I have very strong libertarian views as well and OneMarket is about as close as we'll get to a free market (besides crypto in it's current form).

The concept of a decentralized market coupled with anonymous transactions could be a game changer for commerce. Check out my post here: http://cloaktalk.org/t/one-market-community-guidelines/99/2

[boestin]

Guys, could we please stop quoting the whole text??
Please quote only the line that you need!
Thanks,

Boestin

[XbladeX]

As far as we know the coins that were stolen on Mintpal (not cloakcoin) was related to an exploit in the security system of the exchange. Nothing to do with the coin itself.

The flaw that we found in many PoS systems enables somebody (or a group) to effectively sabotage the PoS staking system and grind it to a halt.

It doesn't enable people to steal coins.

Today is Sunday and lead dev has been off to attend to other things. Tomorrow is Monday, that means more productivity.

Patience guys, we got a long way ahead of us and these are early days.

Hmm interesting.

if that true looks like Dagger will join to elite good POS devs : ) Sunnyking, Rat4 .
Good to know.Not many coins contribute to POS now days.
If real worth to buy some cloak. +1 for real POS developer.

PS: Anyway as i see in POS ( PPC BC ) most changes are around timestamps last BC attack was time bomb attack i wonder if it is another
exploit of that type. that is why PPC systems runs centralized checpointing

[boestin]

So I'm working on the OneMarket Interface right now and just realized that we need some community guidelines for this.

::Community Guidelines::

- No Violence (This is NEVER accepted)
- No Illegal Drugs* (Again, legal in certain locations, marijuana in Colorado, USA for example)
- No Prostitution* (Certain locations this is legal, Nevada, USA for example)
- No Illegal Weapons* (Buying certain types of firearms might be legal, Texas, USA for example)

These community guide lines are not feasible, because of the 100% decentral nature of this project. 

What if OneMarket will be mostly used by criminals? Then OneJury will maybe vote for weapons or drugs or whatever. I believe however that the majority of the people are good. OneMarket will be unstoppable and in total control of the people. THAT'S democracy and THAT'S freedom.  And that's why OneMarket should not depend on central websites, nodes or filters.

In other words, if this thing succeeds in a timely matter, then we will write history!! 


And for all of these reasons, a note to the devs:  please take your time, don't let them rush you. If OneMarket in combination with PoSA succeeds you will change the world, forever.

[Bobsurplus]

The top goal of l8.io is to provide high quality gambling services to the coins with strong base, coins that are highly supported by community and their developers.

The new coin that has been selected to provide ultimate satisfaction by L8.IO team was CLOAK. Strong developers with innovative features, providing highly enriching cryptocoin experience, and thus us the l8.io team has decided to help promote and thus adopt the cloak as a gamblers standart for the casino!

At the casino that is avaliable at http://cloakcasino.l8.io/?r=cloak-casino you can gamble with your CLOAK cryptocurrency, and have a high chance to win by playing a variety of games provided for your delight!

Either you select European Style Roulette with only 2,7% House edge as opposed to American style double zero roulettes that have 5,4%!
Or you can select a variety of other gambling games such as trully provably fair CLOAK BlackJack, VideoPoker and Dice! And it is no ordinary dice game of Hi-low! Its better known as Chuck-A-Luck!

What about fairness and trust?
The l8.io team has been providing gambling opportunities for a variety of cryptocoins for a while and is known as a reputable place that will keep no player dissatisfied!
Also The CloakCasino uses a provably fair hashing algorithm to provide everyone with a fair chance at winning.
The Casino utilizes SHA256 hashing to ensure that it is provably fair, and in the interest of transparency the games allow you to verify the integrity of the hash using an independent client. We play fairly; it’s impossible for us to deliberately pick a wheel spin or deck shuffle to make you lose, and we can prove it!
A hash is a short string of bytes that’s computed from a block of input data. You can’t derive the original input data just from seeing the hash, but the same input data will always produce the same hash. Change just one tiny bit of the original data, and you get a completely different hash.
Here’s how we use this; we randomly generate a game result in advance, and produce a SHA256 hash from a string consisting of this result (a deck shuffle, or a wheel spin) padded with a few random bytes that we keep secret until after the spin. Before each spin or deal, we show you this hash. After the spin, we show you that hash again, together with the original spin data that produced it. At the start of that spin data, before the minus sign, is the number that was spun.

Other Features!
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* ChatBox - for you to talk to other players and ask for support if such is required
* Loads of smileys!
* Giveaways at the chat
* and much more!
So give it a visit!
@ http://cloakcasino.l8.io/?r=cloak-casino

 

Awesome, I'll be using your service a bit later!

[mimini0147]

So I'm working on the OneMarket Interface right now and just realized that we need some community guidelines for this.

::Community Guidelines::

- No Violence (This is NEVER accepted)
- No Illegal Drugs* (Again, legal in certain locations, marijuana in Colorado, USA for example)
- No Prostitution* (Certain locations this is legal, Nevada, USA for example)
- No Illegal Weapons* (Buying certain types of firearms might be legal, Texas, USA for example)

These community guide lines are not feasible, because of the 100% decentral nature of this project. 

What if OneMarket will be mostly used by criminals? Then OneJury will maybe vote for weapons or drugs or whatever. I believe however that the majority of the people are good. OneMarket will be unstoppable and in total control of the people. THAT'S democracy and THAT'S freedom.  And that's why OneMarket should not depend on central websites, nodes or filters.

In other words, if this thing succeeds in a timely matter, then we will write history!! 


And for all of these reasons, a note to the devs:  please take your time, don't let them rush you. If OneMarket in combination with PoSA succeeds you will change the world, forever.

+1 for "I believe however that the majority of the people are good. OneMarket will be unstoppable and in total control of the people."

[youngmike]

kitaco, price is already low so why all this fudding? I think you need a girlfriend  

[gorgo]

never seen a place on the internet where trolls get that much attention.

[trdiablo]

So I'm working on the OneMarket Interface right now and just realized that we need some community guidelines for this.

::Community Guidelines::

- No Violence (This is NEVER accepted)
- No Illegal Drugs* (Again, legal in certain locations, marijuana in Colorado, USA for example)
- No Prostitution* (Certain locations this is legal, Nevada, USA for example)
- No Illegal Weapons* (Buying certain types of firearms might be legal, Texas, USA for example)

These community guide lines are not feasible, because of the 100% decentral nature of this project. 

What if OneMarket will be mostly used by criminals? Then OneJury will maybe vote for weapons or drugs or whatever. I believe however that the majority of the people are good. OneMarket will be unstoppable and in total control of the people. THAT'S democracy and THAT'S freedom.  And that's why OneMarket should not depend on central websites, nodes or filters.

In other words, if this thing succeeds in a timely matter, then we will write history!! 


And for all of these reasons, a note to the devs:  please take your time, don't let them rush you. If OneMarket in combination with PoSA succeeds you will change the world, forever.

Have you read the whitepaper? It seems, they have put quite some thought behind OneJury, the review system.

Another major hurdle is the problem of immoral postings. Such as and not limited to,
dangerous weapons, child porn, assassinations, human trafficking, and other morally wrong
activities. One might think to introduce a user-flagging system much like Craigslist. The
problem with this is that a powerful enough individual or group of individuals could control the
market by selectively flagging listings to get a competitive edge, not to mention flagging is highly
subjective to the person flagging. Another problem is someone just posting over and over again
to flood the network (a.k.a., Spamming).

To combat both these problems, we created a review-penalty-reward system called OneJury.
How it works is when you place a listing, you are required to pay a transaction fee and a selfregulating
fee. The transaction fee is used to prevent spamming since it will cost a (market
based) fee to post a listing, making it not cost effective to spam the network constantly. This
transaction fee is paid out to miners giving yet again another incentive to leave the wallet open.
The listing is not eligible to go live until this transaction fee has cleared the blockchain. The selfregulating
fee is split amongst and used to pay the reviewers of the listing that answered in favor
of the masses. To better explain, the review requests are sent out to the network randomly to
anyone it can find that is online. These reviews would appear in the ‘reviews’ area of the
marketplace if one was sent to you. The first person to review is eligible for their portion of the
self-regulating fee.

[surgexvb]

To be honest I'm a little disappointed to hear about "regulations" in OneMarket.  I thought the idea was a decentralized "anything goes" type market.  You can't control what people do with it.  The beauty is unlike a hidden Tor site, you cannot shut it down.  Even hidden Tor services have a single point of seizure (server), but OneMarket would not live in any one place, like the blockchain.  You would not be able to arrest the cloak team because they aren't actually hosting anything, no one is. This = freedom from censorship and rules.  

If you ban illegal drugs, I'm sorry but you are missing out on millions of dollars of Cloak that could be transacted per year.  Why have an elaborate anonymous marketplace if I'm buying PS4?  I think the key thing here is freedom, freedom to buy and sell what we please in a place that cannot be controlled by an entity.  People can already buy/sell illegal things anonymously without OneMarket

It's a tough spot to be in though, because I do disagree with illegal drugs, child porn, guns, etc.  But I will be showing my disagreement by not buying and supporting sellers thay sell these things with OneMarket.

[weeekeda]

Guys we can vote CLOAK at Bter.com now we need that you vote for CLOAK.

https://bter.com/voting

[boestin]

To be honest I'm a little disappointed to hear about "regulations" in OneMarket.  I thought the idea was a decentralized "anything goes" type market.  You can't control what people do with it.  The beauty is unlike a hidden Tor site, you cannot shut it down.  Even hidden Tor services have a single point of seizure (server), but OneMarket would not live in any one place, like the blockchain.  This = freedom from censorship and rules.  

If you ban illegal drugs, I'm sorry but you are missing out on millions of dollars of Cloak that could be transacted per year.  Why have an elaborate anonymous marketplace if I'm buying PS4?  I think the key thing here is freedom, freedom to buy and sell what we please in a place that cannot be controlled by an entity.

Exactly. But the way I see it, there are no regulations, because this is DEcentral.  

So lets say I want to sell something via Cloak on OneMarket, what is the procesflow in simple language?

1. I am going to open my cloak client and post a listing.
2. I have to pay the fee which is payed to miners/stakers
3. Then my listing is being publiced
4. people can vote/review?
5. people can 'buy' it
6. another review?

[bitc0000]

To be honest I'm a little disappointed to hear about "regulations" in OneMarket.  I thought the idea was a decentralized "anything goes" type market.  You can't control what people do with it.  The beauty is unlike a hidden Tor site, you cannot shut it down.  Even hidden Tor services have a single point of seizure (server), but OneMarket would not live in any one place, like the blockchain.  You would not be able to arrest the cloak team because they aren't actually hosting anything, no one is. This = freedom from censorship and rules.  

If you ban illegal drugs, I'm sorry but you are missing out on millions of dollars of Cloak that could be transacted per year.  Why have an elaborate anonymous marketplace if I'm buying PS4?  I think the key thing here is freedom, freedom to buy and sell what we please in a place that cannot be controlled by an entity.  People can already buy/sell illegal things anonymously without OneMarket

It's a tough spot to be in though, because I do disagree with illegal drugs, child porn, guns, etc.  But I will be showing my disagreement by not buying and supporting sellers thay sell these things with OneMarket.

Totally, agree. Someone doing censorship and having central control is just a showstopper to the ideals of cryptocoins. An ideal crypto market should be decentralized and have an "any thing goes" rule where one can buy and sell with no limits. Instead of a mod there should be a reputation system where the people can give up or down votes and give comments on the items of the seller or the seller itself, of course this can be charge with minimal amount of cloak coins to prevent abuse. And a search engine that can search the entire decentralized market.

Don't like the item of the seller? Don't buy or search for it simple as that. And take responsibility on what you buy and sell.

[boestin]

Decentralized all the way 
The search functionality is not the most difficult point imo, that's like searching the blockchain. The most difficult part is the sell and buy proces. And what about attachments? If the attachments are stored in a decentralized manner, then arises a new challenge: storrraaaage 

[eatenbyagrue]

Also, this cannot really be fully anonymous.  I mean, the seller needs an address to ship to.