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Author Topic: Solution to poverty - Socialism or Capitalism?  (Read 30791 times)
CoinsCoinsEverywhere
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August 06, 2014, 03:49:27 PM
 #301

"Socialism or Capitalism?"

Not a lot of difference between the two in reality. Both rife with corruption and greed. Money is always funnelled to the already rich and powerful in both cases. The poor stay poor.
There is a huge difference between socialism and capitalism. With capitalism you have opportunities to climb the economic ladder if you are smart and work hard. With capitalism everyone has a fair chance to succeed. With socialism everyone gets the same amount of resources (money) regardless of how much/hard you work.
This is not true--not everyone gets the opportunity to succeed.  I agree that there's more opportunity and incentive under capitalism than socialism, but only some have access to it.  If you grow up in a crappy area with a crappy education system, even if you try hard, you may not do well because you aren't given a good set of tools to begin with.  Not to mention that people who grow up in such situations probably don't have a lot of hope.  If, for example, they see their parents work hard but not get very far, it's hard to believe that you stand any better chance.  Sure, some people are given opportunity and blow it, but I think that some people aren't given it in the first place.
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August 06, 2014, 04:22:43 PM
 #302

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Do you really believe that if companies were completely free to do whatever they want that the best companies, products, judgement, etc. would be the winners?  That wouldn't be true at all.  The winners would be the biggest cheaters, bullies, seducers, etc.  If you were to take away all regulation, companies would do nothing but play dirty, and all the rich would take away any wealth that the middle class and poor have left.

I effectively believe that without regulation with the help of property right enforcement by the state you will have the best company, product and judgement that win.
There is no cheater, there is contract to be signed, law and state to enforce them.
I don't advocate companies to play without any law. State and law is necessary to enforce property right.

Having a "natural monopoly" that make later player vulnerable is not proved to work on the long term.
Do you think that it is thanks to "anti trust law" that Apple kicked Microsoft's ass ? Apple won with superior products. But this again will not stay.
Technology shift will always scramble a monopoly, or render it insignificant. Innovation and Entrepreneurship from Peter Drucker speaks about that more deeply.

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The winners would be the biggest cheaters, bullies, seducers, etc.
Are you talking about our politicians ? This is the only career where the mistake of one person makes it even more powerful by blaming on others what he has caused.
In a company, such person is kicked out, as, contrary to government, the money would flee from the pocket of the company to better ones shrinking his power over time, a state can just raise taxes or indebt itself, and blame predecessor or "economic conditions"... Not much different than blaming gods for thunder.

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Fast forward to age 65 - still making the same salary with four kids, no corporate pension and coming to the stark realization that you don't even get a corporate pension and have to work past retirement age..  no savings as you spent all your money on the mortgage for your McMansion.
You took the decision of indebting yourself and having 4 kids, and now you are asking government and your company to take care of you.
But the government takes care of you with the pockets of people who does not have necessary chance to get a house nor 4 children... but happens to have a good job.
And on thing is sure, I don't want to finance your decision.

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This may generally be true, but there are a lot of people that run companies and financial institutions that don't care if their firm crashes and burns tomorrow, as long as they can make a lot of money today.
And this is true. But in a free market, like I said people like that would destroy their company, maybe go to jail for contract breaching, and loose all long term reputation.
But, in our system, it is for the "public good" that such person are not punished, worse, some of them join government. (cf money laundering scandals of HSBC http://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/dec/14/hsbc-money-laundering-fine-management)
Such scammers are inevitable, but in a free market, they would only get one shot.

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If you grow up in a crappy area with a crappy education system
What non-sense in the age of internet, with incredible courses from coursera and udacity. (I won't say for area without internet)
I wished I never have gone to school and that such sites were invented before. I don't remember where I have read that : "In the age information, ignorance is a choice".
I speak as someone who earns money only from what I have learned by myself.

For the crappy area, sure it does not help, but it also open other opportunity.
A crappy area have market to be fulfilled, and as long as there is demand, and you have knowledge to meet it, you become wealthy. The area does not matter.
Thinking that just giving money will give a chance to these people is a fallacy. You get wealthy not with money, but with a market. Without a market, money just flees.

And, also, part of the reason these area stay crappy, is, because of wages protection law.
When you are in a crappy area, but can't hire people for your business because and you can't afford the wage, then you get in a situation where you have high demand but restricted supply and unemployment.
If you can't higher the demand for lack of labor, you turn to black market. This is not because people are bad, but because it is the only way economical way to trade in such area.
Milton Friedman talked about it a lot http://www.aei-ideas.org/2013/02/milton-friedman-responds-to-president-obamas-proposal-to-raise-the-minimum-wage-the-most-anti-black-law-in-the-land/ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-BGi4NIFww

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August 06, 2014, 04:45:01 PM
 #303

You realize the anti-trust is to create competition don't you?

Before when AT&T monopolized the telephone system in USA there was no competition b/c barrier to entry is too great.  The break up of Bell is what allowed competition
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August 06, 2014, 08:46:19 PM
 #304

You took the decision of indebting yourself and having 4 kids, and now you are asking government and your company to take care of you.
But the government takes care of you with the pockets of people who does not have necessary chance to get a house nor 4 children... but happens to have a good job.
And on thing is sure, I don't want to finance your decision.
Lets imagine you live in ultra-libertarian country that doesn't support raising children at all. On its border there are socialist country that acts opposite. After few generations in former country you will see massive population drop combined with lack of young people, so nearby socialist country will have great incentive to simply wipe out your state having army larger by 2..5..10x!

But in a free market, like I said people like that would destroy their company, maybe go to jail for contract breaching
Then you, libertarians, blame prisons for wasting tax money and urge to abolish imprisonment altogether! Grin

What non-sense in the age of internet, with incredible courses from coursera and udacity. (I won't say for area without internet)
I wished I never have gone to school and that such sites were invented before.
I would be very surprised if you pointed me at least one example of hungry homeless child using Coursera or Udacity!

And, also, part of the reason these area stay crappy, is, because of wages protection law.
When you are in a crappy area, but can't hire people for your business because and you can't afford the wage, then you get in a situation where you have high demand but restricted supply and unemployment.
Most African and Asian countries have minimum wages set far below fair price of labor or don't have such laws at all. Nevertheless, these countries are much poorer than ones with such laws.
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August 06, 2014, 10:53:36 PM
 #305

Socialist country don't usually do a good job of raising children. Teachers do not really care if they do a good job or not. And the education system do not have accountability.

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August 06, 2014, 11:06:21 PM
 #306

Socialist country don't usually do a good job of raising children. Teachers do not really care if they do a good job or not. And the education system do not have accountability.
Scandinavian countries are not purely socialist, but rather close to this term in areas of child support and education. And contrary to your opinion, in most ratings these countries took top positions.
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August 06, 2014, 11:08:39 PM
 #307

Socialist country don't usually do a good job of raising children. Teachers do not really care if they do a good job or not. And the education system do not have accountability.



Actually countries like Norway have a long paternal leave
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August 07, 2014, 12:06:56 AM
 #308

You realize the anti-trust is to create competition don't you?

Before when AT&T monopolized the telephone system in USA there was no competition b/c barrier to entry is too great.  The break up of Bell is what allowed competition
Right, and what I say is that microsoft did not get kicked out because of it.

But Bell, is an interesting case because it appears to be unchallenged natural monopoly.

We can believe that Bell got a natural monopoly, permitted by the network effect.
They gained monopoly because people went to AT&T because more people were connected to the network as opposed to later competition as the story goes. And it makes sense.

One objection I would have is : How is it possible that Facebook killed MySpace ? Why MSN Messenger died ? these are example of product that benefited of network effect and thus natural monopoly... for a while.
One point we can have, is that the entry cost in the software industry is marginal, so it lowers barrier of entry.
Also the cost of change is not the same as switching proprietary phone network was. Point taken.

So now, I'll argue why I don't think it is a natural monopoly. And that state exclusively helped Bell to develop at the beginning.
The complete argument can be found here http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/1994/11/cj14n2-6.pdf

1876—94 : Bell develops unchallenged, protected with patent.
One question at this point is to ask whether patents are a good idea at all. One move to prevent monopoly that can benefit from network effect is to not recognize intellectual property at all.

1894—1913 : This period see the rise of competition, with price reduction, and ROI felt from 46% to 8%. "It seems competition helped to expand the market, bring down costs, and lower prices to consumers".
One question here is why this had come to a end ? economy of scale did not prevented competition of entering on this period, as the fairy tale tell us.

1913—21 : "Kingsbury Commitment", AT&T acquired competitors, as well as Western Union. Anti-trust law kicked in, asking to sell 30% of western union, stop buying competitor, and allow competitor interconnection.
However, AT&T could  buy system from independant competitor, as long as it sold an equal number.
There was finally a small number of competitor each geographically restricted by the phone system they bought... so there was no competition after all, but several, local monopolies.

Then here is the regulators kicking in. Regulators thought wise to remove waste.
"There is nothing to be gained by local competition in the telephone business"
"Competition resulted in duplication of investment.... The policy of the state was to eliminate this by eliminating as far as possible, duplication."
"Many state regulatory agencies began refusing requests by telephone companies to construct new lines in areas already served by another carrier and continued to encourage monopoly swapping and consolidation in the name of “efficient service” (Lavey 1987: 184—85)"
Anti Trust is here to break 1 big guy to 5 other big guy, but they want to kill the small fish and erects walls around the big fish.

I will not copy paste everything, then came nationalization of AT&T, with the result of regulatory control of long distance Rates, which was above natural rate "to provide a subsidy to rural area", which killed competition in zone not covered by AT&T, not able to match the subsidy.
At the end, "universal service" vision of Vails, A&AT president, were in place thanks to the action of federal and state regulators.
It was not a natural monopoly far from it.

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I would be very surprised if you pointed me at least one example of hungry homeless child using Coursera or Udacity!
I am not talking about the dying children, but for the lower income class.
The slums stay like that because we are forbidden to give them wealth by trading their labor against money.
Milton Friedman pointed out that we never had immigration policy until minimum welfare services.
This is not a coincidence. Immigration was seen good as long as they brought labor, but once you can't use them as such, it becomes a liability.

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Most African and Asian countries have minimum wages set far below fair price of labor or don't have such laws at all. Nevertheless, these countries are much poorer than ones with such laws.
Give me more specific information so I can know what you are talking about exactly.
Anyway, our laws were erected only once we were already richer. Not before. Wealth is to be made before confiscated.

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Then you, libertarians, blame prisons for wasting tax money and urge to abolish imprisonment altogether!
Libertarians are not anarchist. The state has to protect property rights.
However, sending to prison someone that sold Cannabis ? This is a waste of money because no property rights were violated.
And also, those prison would not be so crowded if people in crappy district were legally permitted to trade their labor against money.

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Lets imagine you live in ultra-libertarian country that doesn't support raising children at all. On its border there are socialist country that acts opposite. After few generations in former country you will see massive population drop combined with lack of young people, so nearby socialist country will have great incentive to simply wipe out your state having army larger by 2..5..10x!
Send me 100 people with anything but bows, and I will send you a tank.
You can't produce as efficiently as in a capitalist country. At this point, war is not about number but about technology.
Anyway, if the capitalist country lacks labor, its door are open to buy it from outside. There is nothing to protect anyway. (No welfare)
As Friedman said, Immigration was a blessing before welfare services.

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Scandinavian countries are not purely socialist, but rather close to this term in areas of child support and education. And contrary to your opinion, in most ratings these countries took top positions.
What is doing Scandinavian country for education ?
The state of private schools, as public, are for the most part disastrous in France, but I know Finland and Sweden are among the best.

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August 07, 2014, 12:15:37 AM
 #309

USA is actually more socialist than most European countries.   EBT doesn't exist in most countries.  If you can't afford food in most countries then you goto a food bank and eat near-expired beans or stale pasta (or you starve if that's not an option).  

 A lot of US states will pay for your rent, utilities (including smart phones) and automobile through poor assistance plans. There's been studies going back a decade where, if a person knows how to exploit the various programs, they can make something like $50K-$70K in untaxed benefits without having to work a fulltime career.  They can also work under the table in restaurants or construction as some bureaucrat in an office can't stalk people to find out what they're doing during the day.

After all those people in Chicago just got put into a $3K a month apartment for free, get EBT on top, automobile assistance, phone assistance, if they have kids then the kids get free meals at school and scholarships, et cetera.

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August 07, 2014, 03:10:46 AM
 #310

Send me 100 people with anything but bows, and I will send you a tank.
You can't produce as efficiently as in a capitalist country. At this point, war is not about number but about technology.
You are right about technology, but absolutely wrong about type of economy! USSR had comparable military technology level to the U.S. (and even exceeded in some areas).
Also modern weapons will be available almost to everyone when metal 3D-printers will become more advanced and cheaper. Size of army again will have big importance.

Anyway, if the capitalist country lacks labor, its door are open to buy it from outside. There is nothing to protect anyway. (No welfare)
Mercenaries always fight less passionately than idea-motivated people!
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August 07, 2014, 04:08:40 AM
 #311

You realize the anti-trust is to create competition don't you?

Before when AT&T monopolized the telephone system in USA there was no competition b/c barrier to entry is too great.  The break up of Bell is what allowed competition

I would call that semi competition to be honest
Its more like an Oligopoly where a few large companies together control the market and set the price

At least that's what you get when you compare mobile phone prices with other countries around the world.
http://www.therichest.com/luxury/most-expensive/countries-with-the-most-expensive-average-cell-phone-bill/
With increases still going

That said at least the US has Republic.

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August 07, 2014, 04:10:55 AM
 #312

I don't think regulations has to be so black & white.  Legal framework always adapt with the times.  However, I think its extreme to argue no regulations at all.  Thats de-evolution

Also, I don't trust Cato Institute.  Well known Libertarian think tank connected to Koch Brothers.

How can you recognize personal property but not intellectual property?  Isn't that contradictory?
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August 07, 2014, 08:38:43 AM
 #313

It's simple.
Social(ism) is making all of us equal.
Capital(ism) is splitting people on rich and poor.

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Nicolas Dorier
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August 07, 2014, 01:56:12 PM
Last edit: August 07, 2014, 04:20:29 PM by Nicolas Dorier
 #314

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Mercenaries always fight less passionately than idea-motivated people!
Yes, but I was more referring to people that move out from their country because they want goods to consume or sell their labors at highest price than at their home country.
This is the same reason why Japanese went to USA, or colon of Europe came to USA.

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How can you recognize personal property but not intellectual property?  Isn't that contradictory?
I say that if law recognize intellectual property, then it is normal that state protects it from violation.
Like for the taxi. A Taxi License is a personal property, and so it should be protected against violation.

But this is not to say, I believe the invention of "Taxi Licence" or "Intellectual Property" is a right thing to do, because I think it limits free market.
But once invented, the goal of state is to protect the owner, and I can't blame for that.

I just blame such inventions.
But taking them away is difficult, because it would be considered as a violation of property by the owner, even with an arbitrary "fair price" offered by the government against it, and they would be right.
Sadly, I don't know how it is possible to take away those inventions, even if we recognize it as harmful. (Which, I personally believe harmful but this may not be shared by all libertarians)

Quote
Social(ism) is making all of us equal.
Capital(ism) is splitting people on rich and poor.

Take a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkivn_3zn5I
The big difference between a libertarian and socialist is the way they define wealth.
The socialist thinks money is wealth and so, is limited and should be distributed. And to increase wealth, one way is to increase money supply. (inflation)

The libertarian thinks wealth is created every times two persons trade with each other without coercion.
In the libertarian mindset, if I decide to exchange you a gold ingot for a pencil on my free will, then wealth is created for both of us.
I valued my gold ingot less that your pencil, and you valued your pencil less than my gold ingot, so we are both winning.
Employment is also a kind of trade, with two differents good labor against money.

The libertarian mindset induce a capitalist society, because the wealthier, by this definition, are the one that trade the most, that is, companies that invested into labor and technology .
And we are against anything that can slowdown the speed of trade.

If you don't think money is wealth, then, you are not socialist.

In the libertarian mindset, MC Donald is god send, because low skilled people can finally trade their labor against money without any coercion from government.

In the socialist mindset, they would say Mc Donald exploits low skilled people, and union would coerce Mc Donald to raise wages.
Diminishing the number of low skill people that would be employed, and the price of hamburger would raise, and consequently their demand drops. (Luckily we are not at this point yet)
Then they would pass a bill so they can give subsidy to Mc Donald for their loss... But that would be advertised the "Food for everyone campaign".
Strings are in place, making everybody, customers ,employees, employers dependent of government for no added value.
Do you want to compete now ? yes just beg for the mandatory subsidy of gov to be economically profitable because of these artificially raised wages.

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August 07, 2014, 02:29:42 PM
 #315

It occurs to me that a solution requires a problem. Why is poverty a problem? Someone define it in clear and non-emotional terms.

Look inside yourself, and you will see that you are the bubble.
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August 07, 2014, 04:10:17 PM
 #316

It occurs to me that a solution requires a problem. Why is poverty a problem? Someone define it in clear and non-emotional terms.
That's an interesting question.  But how can you remove the emotional component when one of the most fundamental goals in life is happiness?  If you want to completely remove emotions from the equation, then please explain to me why we should care about atrocities like the slaughter of innocent children.
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August 07, 2014, 04:31:45 PM
 #317

It occurs to me that a solution requires a problem. Why is poverty a problem? Someone define it in clear and non-emotional terms.
That's an interesting question.  But how can you remove the emotional component when one of the most fundamental goals in life is happiness?  If you want to completely remove emotions from the equation, then please explain to me why we should care about atrocities like the slaughter of innocent children.

Self interest and choice are the ultimate driving force of our society. It is not coincident Adam Smith who wrote "The wealth of Nation" also wrote "The theory of moral sentiment".
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August 07, 2014, 05:44:04 PM
 #318




In the socialist mindset, they would say Mc Donald exploits low skilled people, and union would coerce Mc Donald to raise wages.
Diminishing the number of low skill people that would be employed, and the price of hamburger would raise, and consequently their demand drops. (Luckily we are not at this point yet)
Then they would pass a bill so they can give subsidy to Mc Donald for their loss... But that would be advertised the "Food for everyone campaign".
Strings are in place, making everybody, customers ,employees, employers dependent of government for no added value.
Do you want to compete now ? yes just beg for the mandatory subsidy of gov to be economically profitable because of these artificially raised wages.

Are you sure about this?  Is there a Socialist country that does this, or are you making things up to serve your political agenda?
Ibian
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August 07, 2014, 06:07:06 PM
Last edit: August 07, 2014, 06:20:23 PM by Ibian
 #319

It occurs to me that a solution requires a problem. Why is poverty a problem? Someone define it in clear and non-emotional terms.
That's an interesting question.  But how can you remove the emotional component when one of the most fundamental goals in life is happiness?  If you want to completely remove emotions from the equation, then please explain to me why we should care about atrocities like the slaughter of innocent children.
Emotion can justify and rationalize anything. Money is ultimately about the movement of resources, a very fact-driven thing.

My take, after some thought: In a healthy economy money goes to those who produce or otherwise perform a useful function for society. The more productive the more money, the more useless the greater the poverty.

In a society where survival depends on maximizing the use of available resources this is obviously the case. We live in a time of abundance, so we no longer seek to maximize the use of resources. But it would still be desirable to do so, because everyone would be wealthier in real terms, if not in relation to eachother, which would make it possible to work fewer hours and spend more time on self-actualization which according to one school of thought is the way to happiness. It would also reduce the risk of economic collapse, ensuring that it is not a bubble-period of wealth but a sustained one far into the future.

Thus, in a healthy economy where the use of resources is maximized poverty is a good thing for society but a shitty thing for the individual; but it is also fair. Likewise, wealthy people would have earned their wealth so that too would be fair. And charity is always available for those of a socialist mindset, so there is nothing stopping you from giving your money away. But it would be voluntary, and not enforced at gunpoint as it is presently.

In a society where there is little or no relation between personal ability/use to society and the amount of money one has, poverty is a problem for wider society and wealthy people become villains. It also creates what some people call perverse incentives. I live in one of the biggest welfare nations in the world (Denmark). People who can't or won't work are paid enough every month to live a pretty decent life in exchange for little to no work. The more useless and difficult you present yourself the less is demanded of you. Thus, the optimum effort to income ratio is to be unemployed and unemployable, and as difficult to deal with as possible within the bounds of the rules.

Look inside yourself, and you will see that you are the bubble.
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August 07, 2014, 06:12:47 PM
 #320




In the socialist mindset, they would say Mc Donald exploits low skilled people, and union would coerce Mc Donald to raise wages.
Diminishing the number of low skill people that would be employed, and the price of hamburger would raise, and consequently their demand drops. (Luckily we are not at this point yet)
Then they would pass a bill so they can give subsidy to Mc Donald for their loss... But that would be advertised the "Food for everyone campaign".
Strings are in place, making everybody, customers ,employees, employers dependent of government for no added value.
Do you want to compete now ? yes just beg for the mandatory subsidy of gov to be economically profitable because of these artificially raised wages.

Are you sure about this?  Is there a Socialist country that does this, or are you making things up to serve your political agenda?
I briefly worked in a hardware store. I was on the public teat, as described in the post above. The state sent us there to work as free labor (from the perspective of the store). There was a huge turnover but no shortage of people to send so they just kept replacing us every few months and in doing so saved maybe 4-6 job positions they would otherwise have had to pay for. It's no different from if the state had given them a bag of money to hire those 4-6 people for, this just keeps more people busy and makes the system more convoluted so people who are not part of it can't see through it.

Look inside yourself, and you will see that you are the bubble.
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