Solution to poverty - Socialism or Capitalism?

[twiifm]

My question was simple...is it ethical to exploit desperate people.  Even if these people voluntrarly amd free willungly accets the sweathop jobs.  Yes or no?

Is it ethical to deny people employment opportunities to maintain protectionist trade relations?  Is it ethical to exploit the consumer by only allowing them to buy local produce, at greater expense.  

Or should we separate ethics and economics and address them individually?

Those examples arent issues of ethics.  I would say things like child labor laws, workers rights are issues of ethics.

Thats why i don't buy the libertarian ideal of "free market is always right".  They ignore the existence of power in reality .  Libertarians can say people cant be exploited because free will.  Common sense says the opposite.  People get scammed or exploited all the time.

   If thats your point of view, then I don't really think you understand what "ethics" are.  Certainly you've missed that different people hold different ethical views and value assign them different values and priorities.  You apparently hold child labour in far off lands paramount, another might find employment of local population has greater importance. 

The question you pose isn't simple "yes/no", though most would answer "no" to exploitation there are other factors.  Someone might prefer that there isn't child labour in a far off land, but wants to cloth their child or earn a wage, which trumps their objection to sweatshops.

Also, a libertarian view on the "free market is right" is from the point of view of economics.  Not ethics. This illustrates perfectly my point that they should be separated. 

No my argument is regulations enable free trade.  I argue against the libertarian position that the free market (unregulated) is always right.

You cant separate business from ethics.  Impossible.  To think so is naive or delusional.

If I want to argue child labor from an economics point.  I can just compare economic performance of places that regulate child labor and places that don't.  

The problem I have w libertarian ideology is that it is disconnected from reality.  I reject the idea that free will means exploitation is not possible.  If you make a contract w a child and he has free will to agree.  Do you think our laws shoukd honor that agreement?  This is what im talking about.  Not whether some poor family in Bangladesh needs their kids to go to work and pitch in.  The only reason I brought up child labor is to show that not all trades are symmetric.  In reality a lot of trades are assymetrical due to power relationships.  This is why we need regulations.

[twiifm]

Either you dont know what a sweatshop is or you think it can't exist because free will and free market

Do not compare the condition of today with sweatshop of yesterday.
Compare the life of the worker in sweatshop in a city yesterday with the life of the farmer in the country before yesterday.
Sweatshop was a big deal and an improvement on the alternative. You can't say anyone exploited them, nobody put the gun on their head to flee the country side.

It is great that labor union made things better when it was not at the cost of the tax payer. (ie without using state coercion for their own purpose)

All you are saying is all historical roads lead to the present.  We are debating regulations vs no regulations.

My position is that it is because of regulations (for example labor laws) that contribute to the conditions that allowed economic output to increase

[Nicolas Dorier]

By which standard, you can decide who is weak and need to be protected, and who is strong and need to get robbed ?
To which standard can you point out to someone and tell he is exploited ?
Who judges what the asymmetry is ?
On what standard  the bureaucrats of Washington can judge that the trade between two persons he does not know is asymmetrical, and thus coercion on the strong one should be used to be fair ?
Don't you think that in such system, the bureaucrats will eventually get bribed ?

If an employer is prevented by law to fire his employee, and his employee is not doing his job and profit his position, who is exploited, who lost his free will ? (it is what happen in France)
And then you wonder why enterprise are so fearful to employ someone and on the defensive.
I don't care since I profit from it with my higher rates as fire able consultant, but I am much more secure and free than any employee can be, and always dealt equal to equal with my customers on my free will.

For labor laws, you guessed it right, I am for voluntary child labor, where the child can decide if he works, where he works, and for how much and trade himself for it.
It will solve the dilemma of school being out of touch with economic needs. (Economic need is nothing but the need of society)
The condition of schools today are way worse than work.

[rokkyroad]

By which standard, you can decide who is weak and need to be protected, and who is strong and need to get robbed ?
To which standard can you point out to someone and tell he is exploited ?
Who judges what the asymmetry is ?
On what standard  the bureaucrats of Washington can judge that the trade between two persons he does not know is asymmetrical, and thus coercion on the strong one should be used to be fair ?
Don't you think that in such system, the bureaucrats will eventually get bribed ?

If an employer is prevented by law to fire his employee, and his employee is not doing his job and profit his position, who is exploited, who lost his free will ? (it is what happen in France)
And then you wonder why enterprise are so fearful to employ someone and on the defensive.
I don't care since I profit from it with my higher rates as fire able consultant, but I am much more secure and free than any employee can be, and always dealt equal to equal with my customers on my free will.

For labor laws, you guessed it right, I am for voluntary child labor, where the child can decide if he works, where he works, and for how much and trade himself for it.
It will solve the dilemma of school being out of touch with economic needs. (Economic need is nothing but the need of society)
The condition of schools today are way worse than work.

Yes. That's what we need in the world. More uneducated and ignorant peasants to work for the rich for squat. Children no less!
Do you own a clothing factory in Bangladesh?

[Nicolas Dorier]

More uneducated and ignorant peasants to work for the rich for squat.

By today's skill need standard, kids in our "educated" country are already uneducated, ignorant peasants. They give rise to uneducated, ignorant peasants adult working for the rich for squat.
It seems the sooner you leave school the better you are. (I admit there might be some rare schools of exception, but I have not meet it yet)
I am the trainer in charge of retraining them when they are out of school for my customers.

I will ask you : Have you ever talked with a kid working in a clothing factory in Bangladesh ?
If you have you will find either that he is happy to do it, or, if he is not, he is forced to do it, which is why I said voluntary child labor with the alternative choice to go to school.

And in modern economy it won't be manual labor but intellectual labor. Where the real need is.

[twiifm]

By which standard, you can decide who is weak and need to be protected, and who is strong and need to get robbed ?
To which standard can you point out to someone and tell he is exploited ?
Who judges what the asymmetry is ?
On what standard  the bureaucrats of Washington can judge that the trade between two persons he does not know is asymmetrical, and thus coercion on the strong one should be used to be fair ?
Don't you think that in such system, the bureaucrats will eventually get bribed ?

If an employer is prevented by law to fire his employee, and his employee is not doing his job and profit his position, who is exploited, who lost his free will ? (it is what happen in France)
And then you wonder why enterprise are so fearful to employ someone and on the defensive.
I don't care since I profit from it with my higher rates as fire able consultant, but I am much more secure and free than any employee can be, and always dealt equal to equal with my customers on my free will.

For labor laws, you guessed it right, I am for voluntary child labor, where the child can decide if he works, where he works, and for how much and trade himself for it.
It will solve the dilemma of school being out of touch with economic needs. (Economic need is nothing but the need of society)
The condition of schools today are way worse than work.

As you may already know, legal framework is always in flux and should reflect the needs of society at the present time.  Regulations are added or subtracted as needed.  

What you are proposing is currently illegal for under 14 in US.  I would protest that type of deregulation for reasons of consent.  I dont think minors have ability to consent to matters they have no experience in and it would increase their. chance for exploitation.  And also I believe that society thrives on education.  If suddenly a large population of children chose work over school we cannot remain competitive in future generations

[Nicolas Dorier]

I believe that society thrives on education

Yes, more than we can believe.

If suddenly a large population of children chose work over school we cannot remain competitive in future generations

Why do you think that ? To put things into context the labor demanded in our countries is not manual anymore but intellectual.
Why do you think school educates better than work in today's world ? The failure of schools today makes it hard to believe it can be worse.

What you are proposing is currently illegal for under 14 in US

That's why I'm debating it. But still I don't see why if the child wants to work and make money he should be prohibited to do it.
Education you said ? work nowadays educate better than school because we need brains, we are in a "knowledge economy" in Peter Drucker terms.

I dont think minors have ability to consent to matters they have no experience in and it would increase their. chance for exploitation

If the child wants to practice, learn and make money and company need brains, where is the exploitation ? I fail to see.

But I think we are going round, because you think that a "smart third party" can objectively judge that one is exploiting the other.
For children, the parent judges, and for adult, a washington bureaucrat. But as libertarian I say that only concerned parties are the best judges.

[twiifm]

I believe that society thrives on education

Yes, more than we can believe.

If suddenly a large population of children chose work over school we cannot remain competitive in future generations

Why do you think that ? To put things into context the labor demanded in our countries is not manual anymore but intellectual.
Why do you think school educates better than work in today's world ? The failure of schools today makes it hard to believe it can be worse.

What you are proposing is currently illegal for under 14 in US

That's why I'm debating it. But still I don't see why if the child wants to work and make money he should be prohibited to do it.
Education you said ? work nowadays educate better than school because we need brains, we are in a "knowledge economy" in Peter Drucker terms.

I dont think minors have ability to consent to matters they have no experience in and it would increase their. chance for exploitation

If the child wants to practice, learn and make money and company need brains, where is the exploitation ? I fail to see.

But I think we are going round, because you think that a "smart third party" can objectively judge that one is exploiting the other.
For children, the parent judges, and for adult, a washington bureaucrat. But as libertarian I say that only concerned parties are the best judges.

Yes under current law under 14 years old parents sign labor contract.  But the employment is extremely regulated.  Child has to have schooling min hours per week and child cannot work full time.  So current law allows parents to decide these matters but parents still cannot overstep regulations like have child work full time

The exploitation occurs when you make contract w minors who dont understand contract law.   Theres a reason why we have separate laws for adults and minor.  I don't know if every individual child understands contracts but probably most of them don't

I think the issue here is you are debating from an individual perspective.  Maybe you were really smart and worldly when you were a minor.  Im debating from a policy perspective.  When legislators mske policy they can't think of every individual case only a generalized case

[silversurfer1958]

remove the bankers ability to print money.

[hodap]

remove the bankers ability to print money.

Bankers do not have the ability to print money. There are merely lending out other people money and putting a mark up on the rate as profit.

[catlinhappy]

Hey everyone. In today's developed world where we have glasses that can access the internet and robots that can think on their own, it is a shame that there are still people in parts of the world living under 1$ a day.
What can governments do to end poverty in their countries? Is a solution possible under capitalism? Or did Karl Marx had the right idea with his recommendation of a socialist government?

People that this affect most are people in the third world country whereby their government are very corrupt and self-centered. I think the world bank should not only been giving out loan but should ask questions on how the money is spent.

[Nicolas Dorier]

remove the bankers ability to print money.

Bankers do not have the ability to print money. There are merely lending out other people money and putting a mark up on the rate as profit.

Actually, it is maybe literally true, bank does not print money, but they increase the money supply by expanding and contracting credit.
The fluctuation of money supply is the root of the boom and bust cycles.

[yunkie]

The only way to solve this mess is redistribution of wealth, it doesnt take being a rocket scientist.

[hodap]

The only way to solve this mess is redistribution of wealth, it doesnt take being a rocket scientist.

Why would people who earn it the hard way want to give away their money?

[Full Spectrum]

At a restaurant you trade money against a good meal. Wealth just got created.
You valued your money less than the meal, and the cook valued the meal less than the money. The sum of the difference of valuation is wealth.

Not all trade is equal.  Most of the time there is a power relationship where the strong exploits the weak.

An example is sweatshops.  People who need jobs are willing to allow themselves to be exploited because they need money.  This was common in 19th/ early 20th century before existence of labor unions

how is a sweatshop exploiting anyone if they agree to work there out of their own free will, without the sweatshop they would be worse off.

Do you believe its ethical to exploit desperate people? Free will is just a red herring

They are not as desperate as you think. These people can try to get better work or collectively bargen for better wages or work environment.

My question was simple...is it ethical to exploit desperate people.  Even if these people voluntrarly amd free willungly accets the sweathop jobs.  Yes or no?

I wouldn't call it exploitation as they receive capital and jobs that could have been given to a person in the 1st world. But if that's what you call exploitation then sure, that's how the world works, you need a job to obtain wealth. Look at the Japanese, Koreans, and currently the Chinese, they once were "sweatshops" but the foreign capital that was spent on wages and infrastructure has risen salary and living standards for them. So exploitation? No, that would be like calling going to school "exploitation", going to school even if you hate it makes your chances of obtaining more income later in life higher.

But on regards to the original post, I really believe that the unholy hybrid of both Capitalism and Socialism in the form of Cooperatives will solve poverty issues.

So you deny that exploitation exist because you have an example where end justifies the mean  

Exploitation in capitalism exists, it exists in socialism too(Via Cuban-Venezuelan Doctors for Oil trade).  But in capitalism it starts to subside when workers have sufficient capital amassed (from foreign investment) to Unionize and bargain for better conditions, etc. Remember you can't have unions without having jobs to unionize.

The only way to solve this mess is redistribution of wealth, it doesnt take being a rocket scientist.

Well how do we redistribute wealth then? Progressive Taxes? Violent Revolution?

[Zarathustra]

Capitalism and Socialism (which is collectivism) are unnatural rise and fall constructs. Beyond collectivism you'll find self-sufficiency (anarchy), which was the natural state of human being for a million and more years. Civilization (collectivism) is only a short anomaly within the history.

[trader001]

Capitalism and Socialism (which is collectivism) are unnatural rise and fall constructs. Beyond collectivism you'll find self-sufficiency (anarchy), which was the natural state of human being for a million and more years. Civilization (collectivism) is only a short anomaly within the history.

Collectivism is the opposite of individualism. We might actually progress toward individualism as the technology progress enough.

[Nicolas Dorier]

Capitalism and Socialism (which is collectivism) are unnatural rise and fall constructs. Beyond collectivism you'll find self-sufficiency (anarchy), which was the natural state of human being for a million and more years. Civilization (collectivism) is only a short anomaly within the history.

Do you have some good reading about anarchist, because I'd like how they think to solve the problem of property without giving away to a central power the monopoly of violence.
If state does not exist, and I consider something to be my property, but you don't agree. What settle the dispute ?

[giantdragon]

The only way to solve this mess is redistribution of wealth, it doesnt take being a rocket scientist.

Why would people who earn it the hard way want to give away their money?

Why a mother would care her children and spend resources on them absolutely for free?!!!

[Nicolas Dorier]

The only way to solve this mess is redistribution of wealth, it doesnt take being a rocket scientist.

Why would people who earn it the hard way want to give away their money?

Why a mother would care her children and spend resources on them absolutely for free?!!!

Because I am not your mother