Solution to poverty - Socialism or Capitalism?

[KonstantinosM]

A system of strong and reasonable private property rights.

The ability for every citizen to get a piece of land, (even for free) and have the right to keep it indefinitely.

Capitalism AND Socialism (where it makes sense).


A few basic things can be provided by the government. A house. Reasonable infrastructure. Access to food and water.

Everything else can run in a free market with restrictions so as to make everyone owner of the environmental resources of the land that is owned by the population.


Strong private property rights are the most important thing in an economy.

Time and time again, where people own their land and things they thrive.


Look at the differences between South And North Korea and you'll see how much of a difference private property rights make in the general Wellfare of a population.

(Other historical examples: Germany and Eastern Germany. Finland and Estonia, China and... China).

[1715223476]

1715223476

[1715223476]

1715223476

[MightyStorm]

There can be no solution to poverty in capitalism but you can google for the words of Geoge Carling about how you can deal with some poverty problems nowadays

[giantdragon]

Strong private property rights are the most important thing in an economy.

Strong private property rights will lead to strong wealth inequality and collapse of the system in final. History proved this axiom many times!

Look at the differences between South And North Korea and you'll see how much of a difference private property rights make in the general Wellfare of a population.
(Other historical examples: Germany and Eastern Germany. Finland and Estonia, China and... China).

Many people in Eastern Germany regret about joining Western Germany with dismantling own socialist model.
South Korea has strong anti-communist censorship so nobody can tell good words about North Korea good without risking being imprisoned.
Both Finland and Estonia are capitalist states (Finland is just "welfare state" with market economy).

[MadAlpha]

A few basic things can be provided by the government. A house. Reasonable infrastructure. Access to food and water.

I don't think it's the job of the government to build houses or grow food. Some other person has to build that house, or grow that food, they don't just magically appear from the bowels of the government.

The only task of government should be to secure the rights and freedoms of the people.

No man can have a "right", which another man has to provide. No man can have a "right" which makes a slave out of another man. You can have a right to own a house, but you cannot have a right which guarantees you'll get one.

Strong private property rights are the most important thing in an economy.

I agree.

[giantdragon]

@MadAlpha, the state which doesn't provide social services and only use force to protect rights of the rich won't last long - enough part of population will treat them as gang or terrorists and start the war!

[HarHarHar9965]

Strong private property rights are the most important thing in an economy.

Strong private property rights will lead to strong wealth inequality and collapse of the system in final. History proved this axiom many times!

Agreed, this is the general course of things, historically. The concentration of wealth entailed by private property needs to be enforced by a state, whether public or private. Violent upheaval is the usual result.

[Nicolas Dorier]

Strong private property rights are the most important thing in an economy.

Strong private property rights will lead to strong wealth inequality and collapse of the system in final. History proved this axiom many times!

Agreed, this is the general course of things, historically. The concentration of wealth entailed by private property needs to be enforced by a state, whether public or private. Violent upheaval is the usual result.

Where and when ?

[jjacob]

Strong private property rights are the most important thing in an economy.

Strong private property rights will lead to strong wealth inequality and collapse of the system in final. History proved this axiom many times!

Agreed, this is the general course of things, historically. The concentration of wealth entailed by private property needs to be enforced by a state, whether public or private. Violent upheaval is the usual result.

It takes time for revolutions to begin. We have had some in our times (think of the Arab Spring).

[Nicolas Dorier]

Strong private property rights are the most important thing in an economy.

Strong private property rights will lead to strong wealth inequality and collapse of the system in final. History proved this axiom many times!

Agreed, this is the general course of things, historically. The concentration of wealth entailed by private property needs to be enforced by a state, whether public or private. Violent upheaval is the usual result.

It takes time for revolutions to begin. We have had some in our times (think of the Arab Spring).

The arab spring is a protest against authority and censorship of the political power, there is no absolutely no link with free market and capitalism.

[Timetwister]

Come on, haven't we suffered enough Socialism? Didn't Austrian economists already refute socialism many decades ago (Böhm Bawerk refuted the absurd labour theory of value in the XIX century! http://mises.org/daily/1680) Don't you study history? Cuba was one of the richest countries of the world before communism, now it's one of the poorest. Or look at the difference in purchasing power between North and South Korea. What about the number of people that died in Russia, China or Cambodia?

[gts476]

There can be no solution to poverty in capitalism but you can google for the words of Geoge Carling about how you can deal with some poverty problems nowadays

A statement made with no reasoning or evidence, standard communist banter.

Looking into the reduction in poverty under a freer market system in America in the 50's. It decreased year on year by 1%, capitalism reduces poverty.

Then look into the rise in poverty under socialism.

[gts476]

Come on, haven't we suffered enough Socialism? Didn't Austrian economists already refute socialism many decades ago (Böhm Bawerk refuted the absurd labour theory of value in the XIX century! http://mises.org/daily/1680) Don't you study history? Cuba was one of the richest countries of the world before communism, now it's one of the poorest. Or look at the difference in purchasing power between North and South Korea. What about the number of people that died in Russia, China or Cambodia?

Don't forget Argentina! One of the richest countries in the world! GPD per capita of the USA!

Then...........boom! socialism!

And now its a fucked, well done socialism, well done.

[gts476]

Strong private property rights are the most important thing in an economy.

Strong private property rights will lead to strong wealth inequality and collapse of the system in final. History proved this axiom many times!

Agreed, this is the general course of things, historically. The concentration of wealth entailed by private property needs to be enforced by a state, whether public or private. Violent upheaval is the usual result.

It takes time for revolutions to begin. We have had some in our times (think of the Arab Spring).

The arab spring is a protest against authority and censorship of the political power, there is no absolutely no link with free market and capitalism.

Are you saying that political control doesn't effect ones ability to voluntarily associate?

[giantdragon]

Come on, haven't we suffered enough Socialism? Didn't Austrian economists already refute socialism many decades ago (Böhm Bawerk refuted the absurd labour theory of value in the XIX century! http://mises.org/daily/1680) Don't you study history?

Austrian economists are bourgeoisie followers, smart people have absolutely no trust to them!

Cuba was one of the richest countries of the world before communism, now it's one of the poorest.

Don't mention Cuba - it have to survive under U.S. blockade.

Or look at the difference in purchasing power between North and South Korea.

South Korea have strong anti-communist censorship and don't let to talk freely about the North Korea. In fact, many people in the SK want social benefits which NK have.

What about the number of people that died in Russia, China or Cambodia?

Capitalism killed much more (Great Depression, WWI, etc)!

Don't forget Argentina! One of the richest countries in the world! GPD per capita of the USA!
Then...........boom! socialism!

What, what Can you provide the data?

Looking into the reduction in poverty under a freer market system in America in the 50's. It decreased year on year by 1%, capitalism reduces poverty.

There was even no integrated circuit invented in the 1950. Technologies wiping out demand for labor without creating new jobs in adequate quantities as it had been during last centuries.

[HomerS]

Socialism or Capitalism?
taoism

[Nicolas Dorier]

Are you saying that political control doesn't effect ones ability to voluntarily associate?

?
No, I just argued that arab spring is not against wealth inequality created by capitalism, but against government taking too much power, thus not relevant to socialism/capitalism. (except from the fact that a real free market would radically limit government ability to take too much power)

[zorke]

Or look at the difference in purchasing power between North and South Korea.

South Korea have strong anti-communist censorship and don't let to talk freely about the North Korea. In fact, many people in the SK want social benefits which NK have.

The people of North Korea do not have social benefits. The vast majority of the population is starving and is living in fear for their lives and their family's lives.

The standard of living in South Korea does not even compare to the standard of living to the people in North Korea, it is many times better (to say the least).

[gts476]

Are you saying that political control doesn't effect ones ability to voluntarily associate?

?
No, I just argued that arab spring is not against wealth inequality created by capitalism, but against government taking too much power, thus not relevant to socialism/capitalism. (except from the fact that a real free market would radically limit government ability to take too much power)

government taking too much power IS socialism, more power = more central planning = more socialism.

[gts476]

Come on, haven't we suffered enough Socialism? Didn't Austrian economists already refute socialism many decades ago (Böhm Bawerk refuted the absurd labour theory of value in the XIX century! http://mises.org/daily/1680) Don't you study history?

Austrian economists are bourgeoisie followers, smart people have absolutely no trust to them!

Cuba was one of the richest countries of the world before communism, now it's one of the poorest.

Don't mention Cuba - it have to survive under U.S. blockade.

Or look at the difference in purchasing power between North and South Korea.

South Korea have strong anti-communist censorship and don't let to talk freely about the North Korea. In fact, many people in the SK want social benefits which NK have.

What about the number of people that died in Russia, China or Cambodia?

Capitalism killed much more (Great Depression, WWI, etc)!

Don't forget Argentina! One of the richest countries in the world! GPD per capita of the USA!
Then...........boom! socialism!

What, what Can you provide the data?

Looking into the reduction in poverty under a freer market system in America in the 50's. It decreased year on year by 1%, capitalism reduces poverty.

There was even no integrated circuit invented in the 1950. Technologies wiping out demand for labor without creating new jobs in adequate quantities as it had been during last centuries.

1. Smart people turn to evidence. And all evidence points to Austrian economics being valid and socialism, communism, fascism and collectivism all leading to reduced freedom and wealth (google for how to apply reason and logic)

2. No cuba? Show 1 country that has created greater wealth and prosperity from socialism.

3. The great depression was caused by an overexpansion of credit from the Federal Reservce by means of centrally controlled interest rates. The central control of interest rates is 1 of Marx's pillar of Communism! YOU CAN NOT HAVE FREE MARKET CAPATALISM WITH CENTRALLY PLANNED INTEREST RATES, THAT IS SOCIALISM.

and WW1 is the fault of Capitalism? Try again.

4. What are you talking about integrated circuits for?!!?!?!? AND WHAT IS THIS TIRED OLD COMMUNIST TRIPE ABOUT TECHNOLOGY WIPING OUT JOBS?!

TECHNOLOGY DOESN'T WIPE OUT JOBS, IT FREES LABOUR TO BE ALOCATED TO MORE PRODUCTIVE AREAS OF THE ECONOMY.

and data for Argentina?

google!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/GDP_per_capita_of_Argentina,_percent_of_US_(1900-2008).png
 

[giantdragon]

The standard of living in South Korea does not even compare to the standard of living to the people in North Korea, it is many times better (to say the least).

A lot of info about North Korea you see on TV and popular websites is the U.S. propaganda, don't trust it!
Of course people in NK don't have some freedoms and cult of the leader is inflated, but stories about famine is total rubbish. May be in the past it was true, but now it is only propaganda!