I'm having some doubts about whether it's ethical to make money off of Bitcoin

[Black Tie]

Am I wrong in thinking Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash and I will be rich at the expense of many people out there?

I mean, it's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people. It's not like buying land and charging someone rent, or cooking a meal and setting it down in front of someone at a restaurant.

Yes, I know there is a tiny bit of value in what bitcoin offers that the old systems don't, but even that can only be realized in a best-case scenario (price stabilizes for years on end), which is highly unlikely to happen.

Tell me why I'm wrong and why I shouldn't feel bad for making a lot of money off of BTC.

[1714897323]

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[1714897323]

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[jc01480]

You mean like a ponzi or pyramid scheme?  Supply and demand drives the price.  If all buy and sell stopped at one point in time the price will remain frozen.  But if all started selling at one time, the price plummets.  The rawest form of supply/demand economics there is.  Are there winners and losers?  Of course, depending on how you define "winning" and "losing".

[beetcoin]

You mean like a ponzi or pyramid scheme?  Supply and demand drives the price.  If all buy and sell stopped at one point in time the price will remain frozen.  But if all started selling at one time, the price plummets.  The rawest form of supply/demand economics there is.  Are there winners and losers?  Of course, depending on how you define "winning" and "losing".

i think his main concern for bitcoin is that it is neither a physical object and isn't backed by anything tangible or real.

can't we say the same about buying stock though?

[farfiman]

You mean like a ponzi or pyramid scheme?  Supply and demand drives the price.  If all buy and sell stopped at one point in time the price will remain frozen.  But if all started selling at one time, the price plummets.  The rawest form of supply/demand economics there is.  Are there winners and losers?  Of course, depending on how you define "winning" and "losing".

i think his main concern for bitcoin is that it is neither a physical object and isn't backed by anything tangible or real.

can't we say the same about buying stock though?

And gold.  What would be the realistic price of gold if it was valued only by it's "tangible worth" ( jewelry and electronics) ?

[Black Tie]

You mean like a ponzi or pyramid scheme?  Supply and demand drives the price.  If all buy and sell stopped at one point in time the price will remain frozen.  But if all started selling at one time, the price plummets.  The rawest form of supply/demand economics there is.  Are there winners and losers?  Of course, depending on how you define "winning" and "losing".

i think his main concern for bitcoin is that it is neither a physical object and isn't backed by anything tangible or real.

can't we say the same about buying stock though?

If I buy stock in a company, that company provides a service that people pay going-rate prices for and then proceed to take enjoyment from.

If I buy stock in bitcoin, the best I can hope for is that someone out there will pay way too much for something and then kinda-sorta get some..enjoyment...out of.

[cr1776]

Am I wrong in thinking Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash and I will be rich at the expense of many people out there?
...

Yes.

Look at the functionality and uses of bit coin - those provide real value.  There is lots of documentation and articles about it.  Here is a start, but there are a ton more:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101711220
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/01/21/why-bitcoin-matters/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0


There are many more discussed here on these forums and elsewhere that discuss the real value of bitcoin.

[RodeoX]

These things have been thought about for a long time now. They are good questions to ask, but if you look you will find some thoughtful answers that may assuage your fears.

I believe in bitcoin because it is the fastest, safest, and cheapest way to pay anyone anywhere. That is huge!

[DannyHamilton]

You mean like a ponzi or pyramid scheme?  Supply and demand drives the price.  If all buy and sell stopped at one point in time the price will remain frozen.  But if all started selling at one time, the price plummets.  The rawest form of supply/demand economics there is.  Are there winners and losers?  Of course, depending on how you define "winning" and "losing".

i think his main concern for bitcoin is that it is neither a physical object and isn't backed by anything tangible or real.

can't we say the same about buying stock though?

If I buy stock in a company, that company provides a service that people pay going-rate prices for and then proceed to take enjoyment from.

If I buy stock in bitcoin, the best I can hope for is that someone out there will pay way too much for something and then kinda-sorta get some..enjoyment...out of.

The cash that you hold in your pocket is just useless bits of metal and paper.  It doesn't carry much value at all beyond what someone else is willing to trade to you for it.  Do you feel bad receiving products and services in exchange for your worthless bits of paper, knowing that best they can hope for is that someone out there will give them far to valuable of a product or service in exchange for those same bits of worthless paper?

All forms of money, bitcoin, USD, Euro, etc are essentially the same thing.  They are a worthless thing that everyone agrees to accept in exchange for a given level of service or quantity of product.  Everyone who accepts any form of money, does it with the assumption and hope that they will find someone else that will accept it from them for a similar value of product or service.  If you "feel bad" using bitcoins, then you should "feel bad" using any and all forms of money.  Perhaps you should stick with barter for all future transactions.  It will help you to feel much better about yourself.

[Melbustus]

You mean like a ponzi or pyramid scheme?  Supply and demand drives the price.  If all buy and sell stopped at one point in time the price will remain frozen.  But if all started selling at one time, the price plummets.  The rawest form of supply/demand economics there is.  Are there winners and losers?  Of course, depending on how you define "winning" and "losing".

i think his main concern for bitcoin is that it is neither a physical object and isn't backed by anything tangible or real.

can't we say the same about buying stock though?

If I buy stock in a company, that company provides a service that people pay going-rate prices for and then proceed to take enjoyment from.

If I buy stock in bitcoin, the best I can hope for is that someone out there will pay way too much for something and then kinda-sorta get some..enjoyment...out of.

Bitcoin, like the product of many companies, is an efficiency-enhancing technological innovation. Tech advancement is the underlying driver of civilization and increasing standards of living for everyone.

Taking a really narrow simple viewpoint, bitcoin saves significantly on transaction fees. Let's say that long run it saves 50% on those fees. The market-caps of Visa, Mastercard, Western Union, and Moneygram are all built on top of, mostly, transaction fee revenue. Their market caps total ~$232B. So in this analysis, if bitcoin saves half of that, it improves humanity by about $116B.

That means you don't have to feel bad about making money on it as long as bitcoin's market-cap is under $116B.

But bitcoin is much more than transaction-fee savings. It's arguable that if bitcoin reduces demand for fiat currencies, it will dampen the flexibility governments have to recklessly print money (to the long-run detriment of all but those who receive the new money soonest; ie, big banks). That also reduces the leverage any major economic actor can take, thus reducing the most severe sorts of tail risk (2008-style failures, or worse). You can even extend this argument to make the case that bitcoin reduces probability of war due to the above-implied black-swan reduction, as well as more directly tying the hands of governments more than they are now.

[Beliathon]

It is unethical to _NOT_ dump all your fiat into Bitcoin. In our reality, Oberyn (bitcoin) defeats the Mountain (fiat), and he lives to tell the tale.

[Dalmar]

The stock market is basically the same thing... it requires an increasing number of greater fools until some kind of panic ensues that crashes the whole thing back to reality (dot.com crash, 2008 etc.).

There's not even enough money on earth to cover the market cap of the US stock market.

So, it's not that unethical compared to mainstream capital markets.

[whtchocla7e]

What's the ratio, between all bitcoin holders, of those who see the value in the service and those looking to make a profit off the unwashed masses?

I wonder how it compares to the same ratio among fiat holders.

[LiteCoinGuy]

"It's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people"

then you dont understand bitcoin i guess.


@Dalmar

also true  

[Dalmar]

What's the ratio, between all bitcoin holders, of those who see the value in the service and those looking to make a profit off the unwashed masses?

I wonder how it compares to the same ratio among fiat holders.

Only forex traders hold fiat currencies for speculative reasons.

So, overall a tiny percentage compared to the typical post-2013 bitcoiner.

[Bitcoin Cat]

I mean, it's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people.

By taking away power from the banks, you're doing humankind a big favour.

[Provably Fair Directory]

It is unethical to _NOT_ dump all your fiat into Bitcoin. In our reality, Oberyn (bitcoin) defeats the Mountain (fiat), and he lives to tell the tale.

Word. It's essentially treason to support the current banking system of almost all countries, including the U.S. and all European countries maybe except Switzerland.

I sit in a country where only the recent 100 years, the fiat was inflated to oblivion, abolished and replaced by a new fiat, that is inflated 1000:s of times already. They literally just added three zeros to all the bills.

Staying away from fiat currencies is in itself something greatly ethical. If not only to make the banks and governments at least try to do the right thing with the fiat currencies.

[Beliathon]

The stock market is basically the same thing...

No, buying stocks is buying ownership shares in a company, which is tantamount to BUYING THE LABOR OF THE WORKERS. This is also called WAGE SLAVERY. Stock owners = labor owners = slave owners.

The harsh reality is that capitalism has thoroughly corrupted democracy. It has established and solidified the rule of the 1%, and hardened America's dream of social mobility into a neo-feudal caste system from our worst nightmares. Even after Bitcoin has annihilated fiat (3-5 years), the greater evil will remain. The problem our species must now solve is capitalism. Capitalism necessitates organized hierarchy-based violence to function, otherwise it would collapse. Here's what you need to understand: On Earth there is a zero-sum game between violence and reason. As one waxes, the other diminishes.

Bitcoin does not involve the nation-state, which like capitalism, necessitates hierarchy-based violence to exist...

"Premise Four: Civilization is based on a clearly defined and widely accepted yet often unarticulated hierarchy. Violence done by those higher on the hierarchy to those lower is nearly always invisible, that is, unnoticed. When it is noticed, it is fully rationalized. Violence done by those lower on the hierarchy to those higher is unthinkable, and when it does occur is regarded with shock, horror, and the fetishization of the victims."
-Derrick Jensen

If you like reason more than you like violence, join the revolution and melt some or all of your fiat into Bitcoin.

If you like violence more than you like reason, keep on supporting fiat and your local nation-state murder-machine. Also, please kill yourself for the good of humanity. Suicide is the natural ethical choice for any lover of violence.

Related: Sunset of the State



Yours in compassion and solidarity,

All my love,

World Citizen Beliathon

[Dalmar]

^ Interesting response. What about highly speculative momentum stocks far removed from their true value or commodities (like gold, silver etc.)? Trading them is essentially no different from bitcoin from an ethical perspective.

If you make money off of them, someone else lost.

[Ron~Popeil]

At the risk of turning this thread into a political holy war I would say bit coin is one of the more ethical ways to make money. You are taking a little bit of power from the government and banking system with every satoshi you hold. That is a little bit less exploitation and war and a little bit more freedom.

Save a life. Buy a Bit Coin.

[Beliathon]

^ Legendary response of epic truthiness.

FTFY