I'm having some doubts about whether it's ethical to make money off of Bitcoin

[Black Tie]

Am I wrong in thinking Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash and I will be rich at the expense of many people out there?

I mean, it's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people. It's not like buying land and charging someone rent, or cooking a meal and setting it down in front of someone at a restaurant.

Yes, I know there is a tiny bit of value in what bitcoin offers that the old systems don't, but even that can only be realized in a best-case scenario (price stabilizes for years on end), which is highly unlikely to happen.

Tell me why I'm wrong and why I shouldn't feel bad for making a lot of money off of BTC.

[1715193454]

1715193454

[1715193454]

1715193454

[1715193454]

1715193454

[jc01480]

You mean like a ponzi or pyramid scheme?  Supply and demand drives the price.  If all buy and sell stopped at one point in time the price will remain frozen.  But if all started selling at one time, the price plummets.  The rawest form of supply/demand economics there is.  Are there winners and losers?  Of course, depending on how you define "winning" and "losing".

[beetcoin]

You mean like a ponzi or pyramid scheme?  Supply and demand drives the price.  If all buy and sell stopped at one point in time the price will remain frozen.  But if all started selling at one time, the price plummets.  The rawest form of supply/demand economics there is.  Are there winners and losers?  Of course, depending on how you define "winning" and "losing".

i think his main concern for bitcoin is that it is neither a physical object and isn't backed by anything tangible or real.

can't we say the same about buying stock though?

[farfiman]

You mean like a ponzi or pyramid scheme?  Supply and demand drives the price.  If all buy and sell stopped at one point in time the price will remain frozen.  But if all started selling at one time, the price plummets.  The rawest form of supply/demand economics there is.  Are there winners and losers?  Of course, depending on how you define "winning" and "losing".

i think his main concern for bitcoin is that it is neither a physical object and isn't backed by anything tangible or real.

can't we say the same about buying stock though?

And gold.  What would be the realistic price of gold if it was valued only by it's "tangible worth" ( jewelry and electronics) ?

[Black Tie]

You mean like a ponzi or pyramid scheme?  Supply and demand drives the price.  If all buy and sell stopped at one point in time the price will remain frozen.  But if all started selling at one time, the price plummets.  The rawest form of supply/demand economics there is.  Are there winners and losers?  Of course, depending on how you define "winning" and "losing".

i think his main concern for bitcoin is that it is neither a physical object and isn't backed by anything tangible or real.

can't we say the same about buying stock though?

If I buy stock in a company, that company provides a service that people pay going-rate prices for and then proceed to take enjoyment from.

If I buy stock in bitcoin, the best I can hope for is that someone out there will pay way too much for something and then kinda-sorta get some..enjoyment...out of.

[cr1776]

Am I wrong in thinking Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash and I will be rich at the expense of many people out there?
...

Yes.

Look at the functionality and uses of bit coin - those provide real value.  There is lots of documentation and articles about it.  Here is a start, but there are a ton more:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101711220
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/01/21/why-bitcoin-matters/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0


There are many more discussed here on these forums and elsewhere that discuss the real value of bitcoin.

[RodeoX]

These things have been thought about for a long time now. They are good questions to ask, but if you look you will find some thoughtful answers that may assuage your fears.

I believe in bitcoin because it is the fastest, safest, and cheapest way to pay anyone anywhere. That is huge!

[DannyHamilton]

You mean like a ponzi or pyramid scheme?  Supply and demand drives the price.  If all buy and sell stopped at one point in time the price will remain frozen.  But if all started selling at one time, the price plummets.  The rawest form of supply/demand economics there is.  Are there winners and losers?  Of course, depending on how you define "winning" and "losing".

i think his main concern for bitcoin is that it is neither a physical object and isn't backed by anything tangible or real.

can't we say the same about buying stock though?

If I buy stock in a company, that company provides a service that people pay going-rate prices for and then proceed to take enjoyment from.

If I buy stock in bitcoin, the best I can hope for is that someone out there will pay way too much for something and then kinda-sorta get some..enjoyment...out of.

The cash that you hold in your pocket is just useless bits of metal and paper.  It doesn't carry much value at all beyond what someone else is willing to trade to you for it.  Do you feel bad receiving products and services in exchange for your worthless bits of paper, knowing that best they can hope for is that someone out there will give them far to valuable of a product or service in exchange for those same bits of worthless paper?

All forms of money, bitcoin, USD, Euro, etc are essentially the same thing.  They are a worthless thing that everyone agrees to accept in exchange for a given level of service or quantity of product.  Everyone who accepts any form of money, does it with the assumption and hope that they will find someone else that will accept it from them for a similar value of product or service.  If you "feel bad" using bitcoins, then you should "feel bad" using any and all forms of money.  Perhaps you should stick with barter for all future transactions.  It will help you to feel much better about yourself.

[Melbustus]

You mean like a ponzi or pyramid scheme?  Supply and demand drives the price.  If all buy and sell stopped at one point in time the price will remain frozen.  But if all started selling at one time, the price plummets.  The rawest form of supply/demand economics there is.  Are there winners and losers?  Of course, depending on how you define "winning" and "losing".

i think his main concern for bitcoin is that it is neither a physical object and isn't backed by anything tangible or real.

can't we say the same about buying stock though?

If I buy stock in a company, that company provides a service that people pay going-rate prices for and then proceed to take enjoyment from.

If I buy stock in bitcoin, the best I can hope for is that someone out there will pay way too much for something and then kinda-sorta get some..enjoyment...out of.

Bitcoin, like the product of many companies, is an efficiency-enhancing technological innovation. Tech advancement is the underlying driver of civilization and increasing standards of living for everyone.

Taking a really narrow simple viewpoint, bitcoin saves significantly on transaction fees. Let's say that long run it saves 50% on those fees. The market-caps of Visa, Mastercard, Western Union, and Moneygram are all built on top of, mostly, transaction fee revenue. Their market caps total ~$232B. So in this analysis, if bitcoin saves half of that, it improves humanity by about $116B.

That means you don't have to feel bad about making money on it as long as bitcoin's market-cap is under $116B.

But bitcoin is much more than transaction-fee savings. It's arguable that if bitcoin reduces demand for fiat currencies, it will dampen the flexibility governments have to recklessly print money (to the long-run detriment of all but those who receive the new money soonest; ie, big banks). That also reduces the leverage any major economic actor can take, thus reducing the most severe sorts of tail risk (2008-style failures, or worse). You can even extend this argument to make the case that bitcoin reduces probability of war due to the above-implied black-swan reduction, as well as more directly tying the hands of governments more than they are now.

[Beliathon]

It is unethical to _NOT_ dump all your fiat into Bitcoin. In our reality, Oberyn (bitcoin) defeats the Mountain (fiat), and he lives to tell the tale.

[Dalmar]

The stock market is basically the same thing... it requires an increasing number of greater fools until some kind of panic ensues that crashes the whole thing back to reality (dot.com crash, 2008 etc.).

There's not even enough money on earth to cover the market cap of the US stock market.

So, it's not that unethical compared to mainstream capital markets.

[whtchocla7e]

What's the ratio, between all bitcoin holders, of those who see the value in the service and those looking to make a profit off the unwashed masses?

I wonder how it compares to the same ratio among fiat holders.

[LiteCoinGuy]

"It's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people"

then you dont understand bitcoin i guess.


@Dalmar

also true  

[Dalmar]

What's the ratio, between all bitcoin holders, of those who see the value in the service and those looking to make a profit off the unwashed masses?

I wonder how it compares to the same ratio among fiat holders.

Only forex traders hold fiat currencies for speculative reasons.

So, overall a tiny percentage compared to the typical post-2013 bitcoiner.

[Bitcoin Cat]

I mean, it's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people.

By taking away power from the banks, you're doing humankind a big favour.

[Provably Fair Directory]

It is unethical to _NOT_ dump all your fiat into Bitcoin. In our reality, Oberyn (bitcoin) defeats the Mountain (fiat), and he lives to tell the tale.

Word. It's essentially treason to support the current banking system of almost all countries, including the U.S. and all European countries maybe except Switzerland.

I sit in a country where only the recent 100 years, the fiat was inflated to oblivion, abolished and replaced by a new fiat, that is inflated 1000:s of times already. They literally just added three zeros to all the bills.

Staying away from fiat currencies is in itself something greatly ethical. If not only to make the banks and governments at least try to do the right thing with the fiat currencies.

[Beliathon]

The stock market is basically the same thing...

No, buying stocks is buying ownership shares in a company, which is tantamount to BUYING THE LABOR OF THE WORKERS. This is also called WAGE SLAVERY. Stock owners = labor owners = slave owners.

The harsh reality is that capitalism has thoroughly corrupted democracy. It has established and solidified the rule of the 1%, and hardened America's dream of social mobility into a neo-feudal caste system from our worst nightmares. Even after Bitcoin has annihilated fiat (3-5 years), the greater evil will remain. The problem our species must now solve is capitalism. Capitalism necessitates organized hierarchy-based violence to function, otherwise it would collapse. Here's what you need to understand: On Earth there is a zero-sum game between violence and reason. As one waxes, the other diminishes.

Bitcoin does not involve the nation-state, which like capitalism, necessitates hierarchy-based violence to exist...

"Premise Four: Civilization is based on a clearly defined and widely accepted yet often unarticulated hierarchy. Violence done by those higher on the hierarchy to those lower is nearly always invisible, that is, unnoticed. When it is noticed, it is fully rationalized. Violence done by those lower on the hierarchy to those higher is unthinkable, and when it does occur is regarded with shock, horror, and the fetishization of the victims."
-Derrick Jensen

If you like reason more than you like violence, join the revolution and melt some or all of your fiat into Bitcoin.

If you like violence more than you like reason, keep on supporting fiat and your local nation-state murder-machine. Also, please kill yourself for the good of humanity. Suicide is the natural ethical choice for any lover of violence.

Related: Sunset of the State



Yours in compassion and solidarity,

All my love,

World Citizen Beliathon

[Dalmar]

^ Interesting response. What about highly speculative momentum stocks far removed from their true value or commodities (like gold, silver etc.)? Trading them is essentially no different from bitcoin from an ethical perspective.

If you make money off of them, someone else lost.

[Ron~Popeil]

At the risk of turning this thread into a political holy war I would say bit coin is one of the more ethical ways to make money. You are taking a little bit of power from the government and banking system with every satoshi you hold. That is a little bit less exploitation and war and a little bit more freedom.

Save a life. Buy a Bit Coin.

[Beliathon]

^ Legendary response of epic truthiness.

FTFY

[sharted]

The stock market is basically the same thing...

No, buying stocks is buying ownership shares in a company, which is tantamount to BUYING THE LABOR OF THE WORKERS. This is also called WAGE SLAVERY. Stock owners = labor owners = slave owners.

The harsh reality is that capitalism has thoroughly corrupted democracy. It has established and solidified the rule of the 1%, and hardened America's dream of social mobility into a neo-feudal caste system from our worst nightmares. Even after Bitcoin has annihilated fiat (3-5 years), the greater evil will remain. The problem our species must now solve is capitalism. Capitalism necessitates organized hierarchy-based violence to function, otherwise it would collapse. Here's what you need to understand: On Earth there is a zero-sum game between violence and reason. As one waxes, the other diminishes.

Bitcoin does not involve the nation-state, which like capitalism, necessitates hierarchy-based violence to exist...

"Premise Four: Civilization is based on a clearly defined and widely accepted yet often unarticulated hierarchy. Violence done by those higher on the hierarchy to those lower is nearly always invisible, that is, unnoticed. When it is noticed, it is fully rationalized. Violence done by those lower on the hierarchy to those higher is unthinkable, and when it does occur is regarded with shock, horror, and the fetishization of the victims."
-Derrick Jensen

If you like reason more than you like violence, join the revolution and melt some or all of your fiat into Bitcoin.

If you like violence more than you like reason, keep on supporting fiat and your local nation-state murder-machine. Also, please kill yourself for the good of humanity. Suicide is the natural ethical choice for any lover of violence.

Related: Sunset of the State



Yours in compassion and solidarity,

All my love,

World Citizen Beliathon

Interesting post. Recently, I read up on Ibogaine and it was clear that money was the only reason it has never been researched properly. Not related to bitcoin but it shows how money now rules our lives, and many people die daily because of it.

To the OP: If you want to send someone $5 million, with them in Australia and yourself in the US, it will cost you about $250,000 in fees alone when using the bank or PayPal. The latter is instant (unless PP decided to be fags; highly likely) but banks take 3-5 days to clear the money. While it's clearing, the banks make interest on your money (and you don't get fuck all). Now if you want to do it with bitcoin, it will cost you about 10 cents and it's instant. No middleman means you don't get ripped off and the banks get nothing. If you wanted to buy something online before bitcoin the only option was credit card or a third party payment site like PP. Now people have a choice, and that choice is innumerably superior to any third party service, why? Because it's free and it's run by people for people, not by people for the greedy fucks at the top of the corporate ladder.

[Tron]

Am I wrong in thinking Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash and I will be rich at the expense of many people out there?

Yes, respectfully, you are wrong that it is a tulip bulb scenario.  Tulip bulbs had an interesting property that you could breed them.  The people buying the tulip bulbs had the idea that if they purchased a valuable tulip bulb for breeding, they could make more, sell them, recoup their original investment and then continue to sell more tulip bulbs at pure profit.  The fundamental difference is that the exponential growth was working against them.  The value of a tulip bulb had to collapse.  In bitcoin, it is working FOR you.  

Look at the Bitcoin distribution timeline, and difficulty increases for bitcoin mining.  Both are moving in the same direction to make a bitcoin more valuable.  Now compare that to the geometric increase in breeding of tulip bulbs with nothing but the limits of land, water, and sunlight to limit the growth.  I don't have the stats on how many mathematicians invested in tulip bulbs, but I'd guess none.

The tulip bulb mania is a closer analog to quantitative easing policies of central banks.  It is mathematically unsustainable.  It looks really good for awhile, but it will end in tears.  I don't have the stats on how many mathematicians are still holding fiat currency, but I would hope none.  

Also, don't feel too bad about pawning off your green paper with pictures of dead presidents.  We've all been guilty of the same.

[Ron~Popeil]

Am I wrong in thinking Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash and I will be rich at the expense of many people out there?

Yes, respectfully, you are wrong that it is a tulip bulb scenario.  Tulip bulbs had an interesting property that you could breed them.  The people buying the tulip bulbs had the idea that if they purchased a valuable tulip bulb for breeding, they could make more, sell them, recoup their original investment and then continue to sell more tulip bulbs at pure profit.  The fundamental difference is that the exponential growth was working against them.  The value of a tulip bulb had to collapse.  In bitcoin, it is working FOR you.  

Look at the Bitcoin distribution timeline, and difficulty increases for bitcoin mining.  Both are moving in the same direction to make a bitcoin more valuable.  Now compare that to the geometric increase in breeding of tulip bulbs with nothing but the limits of land, water, and sunlight to limit the growth.  I don't have the stats on how many mathematicians invested in tulip bulbs, but I'd guess none.

The tulip bulb mania is a closer analog to quantitative easing policies of central banks.  It is mathematically unsustainable.  It looks really good for awhile, but it will end in tears.  I don't have the stats on how many mathematicians are still holding fiat currency, but I would hope none.  

Also, don't feel too bad about pawning off your green paper with pictures of dead presidents.  We've all been guilty of the same.

Tulip bulbs were a bit more like Beanie Babies than bit coins. Anyone else remember those?

[Beliathon]

Now if you want to do it with bitcoin, it will cost you about 10 cents and it's instant. No middleman means you don't get ripped off and the banks get nothing. If you wanted to buy something online before bitcoin the only option was credit card or a third party payment site like PP. Now people have a choice, and that choice is innumerably superior to any third party service, why? Because it's free and it's run by people for people, not by people for the greedy fucks at the top of the corporate ladder.

Rock on, you are making me wet you reasonable mofo.

[ampere9765]

It's not like buying land and charging someone rent, or cooking a meal and setting it down in front of someone at a restaurant.

To be honest, I don't really feel that good about the idea of owning land and charging someone rent to use it, either. But that's just me.

[Joe_Bauers]

Everything I have written on this site

This is somewhat like the intrigue I usually feel like when reading your posts
v v v

Who are you???

[Ron~Popeil]

Now if you want to do it with bitcoin, it will cost you about 10 cents and it's instant. No middleman means you don't get ripped off and the banks get nothing. If you wanted to buy something online before bitcoin the only option was credit card or a third party payment site like PP. Now people have a choice, and that choice is innumerably superior to any third party service, why? Because it's free and it's run by people for people, not by people for the greedy fucks at the top of the corporate ladder.

Rock on, you are making me wet you reasonable mofo.

Pics or it didn't happen. 

[Meni Rosenfeld]

Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash
...
it's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people.
...
a tiny bit of value... in a best-case scenario... which is highly unlikely to happen.

If you believe this, then it is unethical for you to profit from Bitcoin.

But, in this case, it is also silly for you to believe you will profit by buying bitcoins, as the logical conclusion is the Bitcoin will go down in value soon.

Luckily for the rest of us, we understand that Bitcoin is a revolutionary technology that will bring the world to a new era of transparency, free trade and personal empowerment; and that any profit we will make while dealing with it is a token reward for our contribution to the betterment of humanity.

[PolarPoint]

I understand your thinking. You feel you need to offer something tangible to someone in return for money, the you feel good about earning it. You don't feel so good about making money off money because you gave nothing back. That is not the case.

When you invest in something and lease it out or sell it at a higher price, you actually took a risk and you are rewarded for the risk. Some would argue that this not productive to the society like manufacturing a product. I see absorbing risk for someone else is a service.

[Cryptopher]

It's okay OP, I can relieve you of your burden should you be the feeling the guilt from making a load of cash.

But seriously, what you have to remember is that people are entering this market knowing that they are buying a volatile asset (with respect to fiat). Okay some people enter the market with the belief that it is a guaranteed money maker, but they panic when the price tanks a little - that's their decision, not yours.

If you don't buy the coin then somebody else will.

[Abdussamad]

Bitcoin is just a way to reverse the flow of wealth back to western countries. The FED QE is designed to devalue the dollar to make US exports competitive again. The ECB is doing something similar in Europe with its monetary easing. There is a small problem with these moves. The US and Europeans depend on the strength of their currencies to lord over the world. But now that the currencies are getting weaker it also means that they have less power than they used to have. And it's going to get worse.

You can see the first examples of this in the London property market which has turned into a bubble fueled by foreigners seeking British assets AND being able to afford them due to the weaker pound. Where are the natives going to live once the best land is owned by foreigners? How are you going to counter the rise of China? Bitcoin then becomes the answer. Plan B if you will. Set it loose on the world and watch people buy into it. All the early adopters are in the west and now they are set to become filthy rich.

Also all this stuff about the world becoming a better place because of bitcoin is just bullshit. People don't change. We had war when everyone used gold as money. We will have war when everyone uses bitcoin. There has already been an attempt to fuel the war in Ukraine using bitcoin.

[keithers]

You mean like a ponzi or pyramid scheme?  Supply and demand drives the price.  If all buy and sell stopped at one point in time the price will remain frozen.  But if all started selling at one time, the price plummets.  The rawest form of supply/demand economics there is.  Are there winners and losers?  Of course, depending on how you define "winning" and "losing".

i think his main concern for bitcoin is that it is neither a physical object and isn't backed by anything tangible or real.

can't we say the same about buying stock though?

Stock is backed theoretically by the company that you are purchasing the stock, but then again, I guess you could say that about anything that you purchase that you don't actually put your hands on and hold...

[franky1]

Am I wrong in thinking Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario

tulip bulbs are grown, and can be regrown at a unlimited amount. the reason tulips succeeded at first was that it was new and everyone wanted it, but once everyone was growing them, they realised there was no limit and that there was no control on growth.

bitcoin is not a tulip. there is a limit and control on growth meaning there is a easy to calculate supply that cannot be messed with or over-saturated..
[/quote]

in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash and I will be rich at the expense of many people out there?

your talking about pyramids and ponzi's. because there is a limited supply you cannot endlessly just hand out worthless coin to new customers and force those customers to sell it down to a next person. bitcoin is a limited supply asset, so those buying it not only have more benefit to hold it rather then sell. but they can use it on atleast 50k merchants so far, so its not a pass-the-parcel.(rob peter to pay paul)
 pyramids would be if today a guy made bitcoin for $1 and he called himself the top dog, and he had 5 distributors who contractually sold for $2. and each of those 5 had 5 of their own resellers who sold for $4.. and so on and so on.
but bitcoin does not have this hierarchy, everyone today are buying and selling to each other at the $600 average. there is no top dog supplier selling cheap and layers of people below him selling at profit.
[/quote]

I mean, it's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people. It's not like buying land and charging someone rent, or cooking a meal and setting it down in front of someone at a restaurant.

Yes, I know there is a tiny bit of value in what bitcoin offers that the old systems don't, but even that can only be realized in a best-case scenario (price stabilizes for years on end), which is highly unlikely to happen.

Tell me why I'm wrong and why I shouldn't feel bad for making a lot of money off of BTC.

you seem to be reading the propaganda of 2012, from noobs. you are not reading the actual real information from proper researched sources. governments, tax offices have all validated bitcoins features of being an asset and not vapour/monopoly money.

the question to ask yourself is
would you trade in gold, antiques, art, cars and other assets. and is the problem simply that you feel because you cant touch it with your finger you dont understand it?

bitcoin is not a physical asset but a digital asset. it is as valid, legal, useable and tradable as what stocks, shares and gold contracts are. but with the extra features as being used as digital bank notes. and the extra benefits of not being controlled by a 'top dog' /government/entity

everyone is on the same level. its what true money should be

[Soros Shorts]

If I buy stock in a company, that company provides a service that people pay going-rate prices for and then proceed to take enjoyment from.

If you are buying an IPO, yes, the money that you pay for the IPO shares goes to the company and they can use it to grow their business.

However, if you buy the company's shares from the secondary market (i.e. from some seller on some stock exchange through your brokerage) then none of the money you pay goes directly to the company. Most of it goes to the seller of the stock, and some goes to the brokerage and exchange for fees and commissions. You are only helping the company indirectly by pushing up their stock price ever so slightly.

[Robert Paulson]

Am I wrong in thinking Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash and I will be rich at the expense of many people out there?

I mean, it's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people. It's not like buying land and charging someone rent, or cooking a meal and setting it down in front of someone at a restaurant.

Yes, I know there is a tiny bit of value in what bitcoin offers that the old systems don't, but even that can only be realized in a best-case scenario (price stabilizes for years on end), which is highly unlikely to happen.

Tell me why I'm wrong and why I shouldn't feel bad for making a lot of money off of BTC.

if you go by that rational then you can't trade anything.
anyone who bought stocks in 2007-2008 lost alot of money and the people who sold them those stocks got rich.
same thing goes for gold in 1980.
as long as you present bitcoin to people truthfully and they agree based on their own judgement to trade fiat for bitcoin then the deal is fair.

bitcoin's value grows not because there are greater fools paying more for it but because its adoption grows, as more businesses accept it it becomes useful to more people.
and because people lose faith in fiat currencies and prefer to hold bitcoin.

[Ron~Popeil]

Am I wrong in thinking Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash and I will be rich at the expense of many people out there?

I mean, it's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people. It's not like buying land and charging someone rent, or cooking a meal and setting it down in front of someone at a restaurant.

Yes, I know there is a tiny bit of value in what bitcoin offers that the old systems don't, but even that can only be realized in a best-case scenario (price stabilizes for years on end), which is highly unlikely to happen.

Tell me why I'm wrong and why I shouldn't feel bad for making a lot of money off of BTC.

if you go by that rational then you can't trade anything.
anyone who bought stocks in 2007-2008 lost alot of money and the people who sold them those stocks got rich.
same thing goes for gold in 1980.
as long as you present bitcoin to people truthfully and they agree based on their own judgement to trade fiat for bitcoin then the deal is fair.

bitcoin's value grows not because there are greater fools paying more for it but because its adoption grows, as more businesses accept it it becomes useful to more people.
and because people lose faith in fiat currencies and prefer to hold bitcoin.

Well said. There is a chance of losing money on anything you invest in. Bit coin is not unique in that. 

[Beliathon]

Who are you???

Just one more random nobody who has suffered enough to become disillusioned of their government-sponsored programming. My anti-theism dovetailed nicely into anti-capitalism. I don't much like cults or pseudo-sciences.

Here are some wise words relevant to this thread:

"I have always thought the principal utility of Bitcoin is that it renders any sort of mandatory taxation model unviable. I am firmly persuaded that as Bitcoin takes hold taxes will have to return to what they were in ancient Greece : willing donations to the state treasury, and something people openly took pride in. This shift will bring about all the improvements we were vainly trying to achieve in the old money paradigm, such as public accountability and reasonable expenditure in one fell swoop : good luck getting people to donate to the police department if they don’t like the police. And good luck with the welfare programs, for sure.

Add to that a shift of contracts from the old model to the new and suddenly you have - and I mean this quite literally - a new Renaissance. Man at the center of all things. Man, the willing enforcer of his own promises. Man, the willing contributor to the wealth of an obviously much reduced, but by that fact probably much nicer, lovable and huggable cute little state.

I’m crying with joy over here, my toes are curling in untold glee, I have little doubt that I shall live to see this, all of it. And for the first time in many, many years I feel again like the world is worth living in."
-Mercia Popescu (source)

[Elwar]

Welcome to Bitcoin, I suggest you read the white paper.

https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

If you do not see the value provided by Bitcoin, you are not paying attention.

[master-P]

Buying bitcoin is not without risk. So while you may feel bad that you're making a profit when someone buys your coins for a higher price, you could have lost money if the price dropped a lot and you had to sell.

[Ron~Popeil]

Buying bitcoin is not without risk. So while you may feel bad that you're making a profit when someone buys your coins for a higher price, you could have lost money if the price dropped a lot and you had to sell.

Buying anything is risky. Even holding dollars is a losing proposition. People seem to think risk is somehow unique to bit coin.

[Light]

Buying anything is risky. Even holding dollars is a losing proposition. People seem to think risk is somehow unique to bit coin.

On a broader thesis, life itself is risky. Anything you do has inherent risk, its just whether the risk justifies the reward.

Back on topic, I don't see how this is any different from making money on the forex market. For you to make money, some poor sod will have his currency devaluated compared to yours. It's just a fact of life, you might as well try and be sad about the fact that the world is inherently unfair. Sure, you try and do your bit, but you can hardly expect to change the whole world.

[Ron~Popeil]

Buying anything is risky. Even holding dollars is a losing proposition. People seem to think risk is somehow unique to bit coin.

On a broader thesis, life itself is risky. Anything you do has inherent risk, its just whether the risk justifies the reward.

Back on topic, I don't see how this is any different from making money on the forex market. For you to make money, some poor sod will have his currency devaluated compared to yours. It's just a fact of life, you might as well try and be sad about the fact that the world is inherently unfair. Sure, you try and do your bit, but you can hardly expect to change the whole world.

Competition is what makes us a successful species. There will always be winners and losers and I think that is okay, even preferred.

[franky1]

the OP should not be a retailer with the mindset he has
after all, buying tins of baked bans and selling them for profit is bad (pyramid)

the OP should not be a employee with the mindset he has
after all, using your muscles or brain to get money is bad

the OP should not be a manufacturer with the mindset he has
after all, making products and selling them for profit is bad (pyramid)

the OP should not be on government benefits with the mindset he has
after all, not working, but getting money is bad (ponzi)

the OP should not have family to support him with the mindset he has
after all, relying on others to give you money is bad (ponzi)

so now the OP realises making money is bad. he should just steal what he wants and hurt who he wants, just to survive. as long as he never makes any money.

[Sarcasm Level: [lllllllllllllll] 99.8%]

[master-P]

Buying anything is risky. Even holding dollars is a losing proposition. People seem to think risk is somehow unique to bit coin.

On a broader thesis, life itself is risky. Anything you do has inherent risk, its just whether the risk justifies the reward.

Back on topic, I don't see how this is any different from making money on the forex market. For you to make money, some poor sod will have his currency devaluated compared to yours. It's just a fact of life, you might as well try and be sad about the fact that the world is inherently unfair. Sure, you try and do your bit, but you can hardly expect to change the whole world.

Competition is what makes us a successful species. There will always be winners and losers and I think that is okay, even preferred.

Maybe the OP should consider donating some money to charity if he profited a lot off of bitcoin. That'll help clear your conscience. Although I don't really see anything inherently wrong with buying and selling BTC.

[Ron~Popeil]

Buying anything is risky. Even holding dollars is a losing proposition. People seem to think risk is somehow unique to bit coin.

On a broader thesis, life itself is risky. Anything you do has inherent risk, its just whether the risk justifies the reward.

Back on topic, I don't see how this is any different from making money on the forex market. For you to make money, some poor sod will have his currency devaluated compared to yours. It's just a fact of life, you might as well try and be sad about the fact that the world is inherently unfair. Sure, you try and do your bit, but you can hardly expect to change the whole world.

Competition is what makes us a successful species. There will always be winners and losers and I think that is okay, even preferred.

Maybe the OP should consider donating some money to charity if he profited a lot off of bitcoin. That'll help clear your conscience. Although I don't really see anything inherently wrong with buying and selling BTC.

The official address for guilt donations is: 1DubEinemhC3usjotuFv9dqFE5VWvB6sEx

 

[Beliathon]

so now the OP realises making money is bad. he should just steal what he wants and hurt who he wants, just to survive. as long as he never makes any money.

"The measure of the state’s success is that the word anarchy frightens people, while the word state does not. We are like those African slaves who believe that their master is their benefactor, or those Russians who still believe that Stalin was their guardian."
-Joseph Sobran

[scribbles]

Bitcoin (and decentralized crypto currencies in general) seem like a logical, natural response to the overregulation and corporatization of currency in most, if not all, of the world. When laissez faire capitalism combined with the corporate bottom line develop a fiat system into a machine for profiting from and monitoring of people's transactions, then bitcoin seems like THE ethical response.

If you happen to profit from buying into this system along the way, I don't see the problem. Plus, nobody is stopping you from donating a portion of your profit to benefit others. I already saw someone's address on this thread offering to help with that. 

[freedombit]

Am I wrong in thinking Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash and I will be rich at the expense of many people out there?

I mean, it's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people. It's not like buying land and charging someone rent, or cooking a meal and setting it down in front of someone at a restaurant.

Yes, I know there is a tiny bit of value in what bitcoin offers that the old systems don't, but even that can only be realized in a best-case scenario (price stabilizes for years on end), which is highly unlikely to happen.

Tell me why I'm wrong and why I shouldn't feel bad for making a lot of money off of BTC.

Glad you have a conscious. You ask a very important question. There are a lot of younger folks here that are coming into huge amounts of wealth. Consider using your new found wealth to make the world a better place. This does not mean giving the wealth away, but by being a philanthropist that ties responsibility to the use of funds.

[Light]

Glad you have a conscious conscience. You ask a very important question. There are a lot of younger folks here that are coming into huge amounts of wealth. Consider using your new found wealth to make the world a better place. This does not mean giving the wealth away, but by being a philanthropist that ties responsibility to the use of funds.

FTFY.

Competition is what makes us a successful species. There will always be winners and losers and I think that is okay, even preferred.

Competition is always going to be prevalent so long as another competing lifeform exists that can influence the same 'area' as yourself. As I've said, I wouldn't get too worried about this - have enough to support yourself before you start worrying about helping others, there are people out there who would silence their morality for a quick buck.

[Ron~Popeil]

Glad you have a conscious conscience. You ask a very important question. There are a lot of younger folks here that are coming into huge amounts of wealth. Consider using your new found wealth to make the world a better place. This does not mean giving the wealth away, but by being a philanthropist that ties responsibility to the use of funds.

FTFY.

Competition is what makes us a successful species. There will always be winners and losers and I think that is okay, even preferred.

Competition is always going to be prevalent so long as another competing lifeform exists that can influence the same 'area' as yourself. As I've said, I wouldn't get too worried about this - have enough to support yourself before you start worrying about helping others, there are people out there who would silence their morality for a quick buck.

I send an occasional donation to Sean's Outpost. Not a lot as I don't have a lot but I enjoy the thought that a homeless person might get a meal and a warm bed for a night because of me. 

[Tamis]

These things have been thought about for a long time now. They are good questions to ask, but if you look you will find some thoughtful answers that may assuage your fears.

I believe in bitcoin because it is the fastest, safest, and cheapest way to pay anyone anywhere. That is huge!

I think that sums it all...

[johnyj]

The most unethical thing I can think of is printing money out of thin air and use those money to buy and own assets. That is pure robbery, comparing to that, bitcoin's earning is extremely ethical

[Ron~Popeil]

The most unethical thing I can think of is printing money out of thin air and use those money to buy and own assets. That is pure robbery, comparing to that, bitcoin's earning is extremely ethical

QFT. An ethical transaction means both sides gain value. There is no value exchange when you can just conjure up money by devaluing the supply.

[Harley997]

Am I wrong in thinking Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash and I will be rich at the expense of many people out there?

I mean, it's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people. It's not like buying land and charging someone rent, or cooking a meal and setting it down in front of someone at a restaurant.

Yes, I know there is a tiny bit of value in what bitcoin offers that the old systems don't, but even that can only be realized in a best-case scenario (price stabilizes for years on end), which is highly unlikely to happen.

Tell me why I'm wrong and why I shouldn't feel bad for making a lot of money off of BTC.

You are just spreading FUD about bitcoin.

You assume that bitcoin has zero underlying value which is incorrect.

[Ron~Popeil]

Am I wrong in thinking Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash and I will be rich at the expense of many people out there?

I mean, it's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people. It's not like buying land and charging someone rent, or cooking a meal and setting it down in front of someone at a restaurant.

Yes, I know there is a tiny bit of value in what bitcoin offers that the old systems don't, but even that can only be realized in a best-case scenario (price stabilizes for years on end), which is highly unlikely to happen.

Tell me why I'm wrong and why I shouldn't feel bad for making a lot of money off of BTC.

You are just spreading FUD about bitcoin.

You assume that bitcoin has zero underlying value which is incorrect.

What is with all the fud stuff lately? Constant ghash.io and "this block is huge so it must be fraud" threads are getting kind of old.

[NEM minnow]

The world needs money.  We use it as markers of value. 

All money used these days is just created out of thin air.  It wasn't like that before, we used gold, but not now. 

The problem your having is that you are use to money being created by a government and backed by a government and enforced by a government. 

It is very strange for anyone in the world to think of a unit of value that wasn't created this way.  So if the government isn't involved it seems like a ponzi. 

Actually, governments cash is a ponzi.  They print more and more and when the is ruined, they just make a new currency and start over.  This has happened time and time again in country after country. 

Bitcoin is regulated by math and science and is produced in a way and at a rate so that it will hold its value. 

It also happens to be one of the cheapest and quickest ways to send value anywhere in the world.  (Although NXT and NEM will even be cheaper, and faster, and easier soon)

So it seems like a ponzi because ponzies have traditionally come out of nowhere and not been back by the government. 

This is definitely not a ponzi.  It is backed by you and me and everyone that believes in bitcoin.  It seems taboo to make our own currency and not use the once forced upon us by government, but it is our right and actually to our benefit. 

[findftp]

I mean, it's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people.

Please sell everything before it is too late.

[cr1776]

Am I wrong in thinking Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash and I will be rich at the expense of many people out there?

I mean, it's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people. It's not like buying land and charging someone rent, or cooking a meal and setting it down in front of someone at a restaurant.

Yes, I know there is a tiny bit of value in what bitcoin offers that the old systems don't, but even that can only be realized in a best-case scenario (price stabilizes for years on end), which is highly unlikely to happen.

Tell me why I'm wrong and why I shouldn't feel bad for making a lot of money off of BTC.

You are just spreading FUD about bitcoin.

You assume that bitcoin has zero underlying value which is incorrect.

What is with all the fud stuff lately? Constant ghash.io and "this block is huge so it must be fraud" threads are getting kind of old.

It isn't just lately!  ;-)  Bitcoin has been a "bubble" for more than 4 years now, bitcoin has been a "ponzi-scheme" and a "pyramid" with "no benefits" too.  There has been the "threat of a 51% attack" since fall 2010 (at least) - Slush was in the ghash spot years ago too.  Some is FUD, some is just people not understanding the technology's benefits.

[markj113]

You mean like a ponzi or pyramid scheme?  Supply and demand drives the price.  If all buy and sell stopped at one point in time the price will remain frozen.  But if all started selling at one time, the price plummets.  The rawest form of supply/demand economics there is.  Are there winners and losers?  Of course, depending on how you define "winning" and "losing".

i think his main concern for bitcoin is that it is neither a physical object and isn't backed by anything tangible or real.

can't we say the same about buying stock though?

And gold.  What would be the realistic price of gold if it was valued only by it's "tangible worth" ( jewelry and electronics) ?

Dont forget to consider the cost for mining the gold, somewhere between $600 - $700 an oz.

Add in labor to make the jewellery etc.

[MyPotPlantDied]

The thing is that Bitcoin has an entire economy around it and has provided countless people with employment so I don't think it is fair to look at it like some sort of pyramid scheme that requires more and more people to keep piling in.

To me, to say it is unethical to profit from Bitcoin would be the same as saying it is unethical to profit off of gold or real estate.

[spazzdla]

Tulips die/rot, bitcoins do not.
Tulips can be grown to inifinit, bitcoins can not.
You cannot carry your entire wealth in tulips over a criminal boarder without be detected, you can with BTC.
You can not send tulips accross the world in seconds for 5cents, you can with BTC.

[zimmah]

Bitcoin is more ethical than fiat. Also people have no choice about using fiat or not, bitcoin finaly gives people choice.

If they lies money because they never bothered to even buy 0.01 bitcoin, it's their loss. Not your problem they are too dumb to understand the potential.

[Beliathon]

Bitcoin is more ethical than fiat. Also people have no choice about using fiat or not, bitcoin finaly gives people choice.

QFT, Bitcoin reclaims power for the people.

[commandrix]

Hey. If you were one of those lucky people who bought Bitcoin when a BTC cost about five cents, you have absolutely nothing to feel bad about. It's just the market system at work. If you're a scammer, sure, you'll probably need a deep dark hole to hide from everybody who is going to come after you. But if you're an honest business person who takes Bitcoin as payment, there is nothing wrong with that.

[jbreher]

What is with all the fud stuff lately?

_Lately_?

::sigh:: You get used to it.

[pummle]

Am I wrong in thinking Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash and I will be rich at the expense of many people out there?

I mean, it's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people. It's not like buying land and charging someone rent, or cooking a meal and setting it down in front of someone at a restaurant.

Yes, I know there is a tiny bit of value in what bitcoin offers that the old systems don't, but even that can only be realized in a best-case scenario (price stabilizes for years on end), which is highly unlikely to happen.

Tell me why I'm wrong and why I shouldn't feel bad for making a lot of money off of BTC.

You should not feel bad about making money off bitcoins. You are investing into the future of money, and so you deserve to earn something for taking that risk.

Think of bitcoins not so much as a way to make money as a way to save money. You investing money into bitcoin allows other people who need money now to take money out as they sell the bitcoins to you. Later, when you need the money for something, there will be other people who want to put money in and they will trade for your bitcoins.

[BADecker]

If ANYBODY ever feels that using Bitcoin is in some way unethical, spend the hour and a half that it takes to listen to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l428i3WAkuU. You will see that the whole world of BANKING, etc., has screwed ALL of us, ROYALLY, for the last roughly 400 years. If you get all choked up about what you hear in this video, do the research, and you will find out that it is TRUE. Then come back here and cry about ethics some more.

You might want to include in your video watching, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WUzUbHAzus, which is a follow up, sort of.

Now, I'm not saying that any of the stuff in these two videos is going to do anything for your lifestyle. Use it at your own risk. But the thing that these videos does is to SHOW US WHAT HAS HAPPENED, WHAT IS HAPPENING, AND HOW THE CROOKS IN THE BANKING AND GOVERNMENTAL INDUSTRIES - yes, government is an industry - ARE NOT EVEN HONORING THEIR OWN LAWS WHEN WE PICK THEM UP AND USE THEM (the laws).

In the face of all this, Bitcoin might not stand a chance! But Bitcoin could, also, wind up being the thing that gets the SYSTEM in its Achilles heal. Wake up to life! Get of the ethical, cry-baby trip about Bitcoin.

[Justin00]

this thread real ?
i couldnt get past the title ?
if you arent stealing or hurting anyone, whats the problem ? I am sure the churchs and co will be accepting btc soon :p
passing the collectng plate around, with a QR code

sorry don't mean to offend any of our religious bitcoiners, not that my comment was offending, but just incase

[Paleus]

Ask not how to acquire more money, but how to acquire more bitcoin. -- Satoshi Nakamoto

[nwfella]

You mean like a ponzi or pyramid scheme?  Supply and demand drives the price.  If all buy and sell stopped at one point in time the price will remain frozen.  But if all started selling at one time, the price plummets.  The rawest form of supply/demand economics there is.  Are there winners and losers?  Of course, depending on how you define "winning" and "losing".

i think his main concern for bitcoin is that it is neither a physical object and isn't backed by anything tangible or real.

can't we say the same about buying stock though?

And gold.  What would be the realistic price of gold if it was valued only by it's "tangible worth" ( jewelry and electronics) ?

If gold ever did get valued at it's actual usefulness or "tangible worth" I strongly suspect it would be worth far less than silver.

[fendlestick]

Buying anything is risky. Even holding dollars is a losing proposition. People seem to think risk is somehow unique to bit coin.

On a broader thesis, life itself is risky. Anything you do has inherent risk, its just whether the risk justifies the reward.

Back on topic, I don't see how this is any different from making money on the forex market. For you to make money, some poor sod will have his currency devaluated compared to yours. It's just a fact of life, you might as well try and be sad about the fact that the world is inherently unfair. Sure, you try and do your bit, but you can hardly expect to change the whole world.

Competition is what makes us a successful species. There will always be winners and losers and I think that is okay, even preferred.

Maybe the OP should consider donating some money to charity if he profited a lot off of bitcoin. That'll help clear your conscience. Although I don't really see anything inherently wrong with buying and selling BTC.

Just don't give the money to charities that invest in alcohol, firearms and tobacco, like Comic Relief.

[Hippie Tech]

Confessions of a Rockefeller - Aaron Russo

http://youtu.be/0HzeRabP6cQ

These same people created Bitcoin. It is nothing more than a false hope/flag that will lead us into the cashless age.

[BADecker]

Confessions of a Rockefeller - Aaron Russo

http://youtu.be/0HzeRabP6cQ

These same people created Bitcoin. It is nothing more than a flase hope/flag that will lead us into the cashless age.

And this brings us to Bilderberg. I think when it comes right down to it, we will find that Satoshi was a Bilderberg creation - a total fabrication - probably done by one of the lesser Bilderberg families, that didn't like the way the major Bilderberg players were directing the world. They may have even had approval from Builderberg, as a backup in the event that Bilderberg plans failed. Or they may have been challenged by "reigning" Builderberg families, like, "Go ahead and try it. It won't succeed." Of course, they might have done Bitcoin in total secrecy.

Anyway, we are a long way from "proving" Bitcoin one way or another. Sure, it has had its successes. But it is a long way from even starting to challenge the fiats of the banking system.

Do you want to get into true ethics? Become like Elijah in the Old Testament. Live out in the wilds. Make no agreements with any man (or woman), especially regarding property and money. And read the Bible constantly until you have a correct sense about how to spread the Gospel among any people you might come across. But if you aren't going to do the Elijah bit, you are breaking ethics all the time, simply by living in society.

Use Bitcoin. There is less of an ethical violation than when using fiats. The Queen of England is the beneficiary of the Social Security System.

[ShakyhandsBTCer]

You mean like a ponzi or pyramid scheme?  Supply and demand drives the price.  If all buy and sell stopped at one point in time the price will remain frozen.  But if all started selling at one time, the price plummets.  The rawest form of supply/demand economics there is.  Are there winners and losers?  Of course, depending on how you define "winning" and "losing".

i think his main concern for bitcoin is that it is neither a physical object and isn't backed by anything tangible or real.

can't we say the same about buying stock though?

And gold.  What would be the realistic price of gold if it was valued only by it's "tangible worth" ( jewelry and electronics) ?

If gold ever did get valued at it's actual usefulness or "tangible worth" I strongly suspect it would be worth far less than silver.

It would likely not be worth less then silver if silver was also valued at it's "tangible worth" as gold is more efficient and has more uses then silver.

Investments like gold and silver will never will never be valued at their "tangible worth" because there are other legitimate uses for them (store of value, hedge against inflation).

[Hippie Tech]

Confessions of a Rockefeller - Aaron Russo

http://youtu.be/0HzeRabP6cQ

These same people created Bitcoin. It is nothing more than a false hope/flag that will lead us into the cashless age.

And this brings us to Bilderberg. I think when it comes right down to it, we will find that Satoshi was a Bilderberg creation - a total fabrication - probably done by one of the lesser Bilderberg families, that didn't like the way the major Bilderberg players were directing the world. They may have even had approval from Builderberg, as a backup in the event that Bilderberg plans failed. Or they may have been challenged by "reigning" Builderberg families, like, "Go ahead and try it. It won't succeed." Of course, they might have done Bitcoin in total secrecy.

Anyway, we are a long way from "proving" Bitcoin one way or another. Sure, it has had its successes. But it is a long way from even starting to challenge the fiats of the banking system.

Do you want to get into true ethics? Become like Elijah in the Old Testament. Live out in the wilds. Make no agreements with any man (or woman), especially regarding property and money. And read the Bible constantly until you have a correct sense about how to spread the Gospel among any people you might come across. But if you aren't going to do the Elijah bit, you are breaking ethics all the time, simply by living in society.

Use Bitcoin. There is less of an ethical violation than when using fiats. The Queen of England is the beneficiary of the Social Security System.

Whats there not to like about those inbred genocidal types ?




ANYTHING and EVERYTHING related to our current governmental and economic realities is UNETHICAL.

@ all
How many will your vote, buying power and taxes, enslave and bomb today ?

[cinnamon_carter]

no one owes you proof of anything

you can as an individual decide what is and is not ethical

bitcoin will carry on without you, me or any individual, like it or not

Am I wrong in thinking Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash and I will be rich at the expense of many people out there?

I mean, it's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people. It's not like buying land and charging someone rent, or cooking a meal and setting it down in front of someone at a restaurant.

Yes, I know there is a tiny bit of value in what bitcoin offers that the old systems don't, but even that can only be realized in a best-case scenario (price stabilizes for years on end), which is highly unlikely to happen.

Tell me why I'm wrong and why I shouldn't feel bad for making a lot of money off of BTC.

[Harley997]

Am I wrong in thinking Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash and I will be rich at the expense of many people out there?

I mean, it's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people. It's not like buying land and charging someone rent, or cooking a meal and setting it down in front of someone at a restaurant.

Yes, I know there is a tiny bit of value in what bitcoin offers that the old systems don't, but even that can only be realized in a best-case scenario (price stabilizes for years on end), which is highly unlikely to happen.

Tell me why I'm wrong and why I shouldn't feel bad for making a lot of money off of BTC.

You should not feel bad about making money off bitcoins. You are investing into the future of money, and so you deserve to earn something for taking that risk.

Think of bitcoins not so much as a way to make money as a way to save money. You investing money into bitcoin allows other people who need money now to take money out as they sell the bitcoins to you. Later, when you need the money for something, there will be other people who want to put money in and they will trade for your bitcoins.

Making money off of bitcoin is not any different then making money off of any other investment.

[VeroPossumus]

Wow, there are people in this world who still worry about ethics.
With Bitcoin i shouldn't be and issue. Like its said before, youre not killing or stealing.

[halfawake]

I mean, it's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people. It's not like buying land and charging someone rent, or cooking a meal and setting it down in front of someone at a restaurant.

Yes, I know there is a tiny bit of value in what bitcoin offers that the old systems don't, but even that can only be realized in a best-case scenario (price stabilizes for years on end), which is highly unlikely to happen.

If you really think Bitcoin provides no real value to people, consider this.  I am seriously thinking of setting up a small business based entirely on bitcoin transactions.  Before learning about Bitcoin, I never would have bothered.  Yes, it's true that setting up a secure system for offline storage of bitcoins is a bit of a headache.  But it has some real, significant advantages, especially if you use something as solid as Armory.  Done properly, it only has to be done once, and so long as your offline computer is physically secure, you never have to worry about losing your bitcoins.

In my opinion, that's a huge, significant value that bitcoin provides.  And services like Coinbase / bitpay negate your concern about the price stabilizing for years, I could realize these benefits immediately without having to worry about the exchange rate by using either of these services.  I'm a strong believer of the long term viability of bitcoins, so I'd keep as large a portion of the income of the site in bitcoins as I could, but would keep enough in fiat to pay the bills.

The alternative in the traditional financial world is handling credit card payments.  In the United States, this means PCI Compliance.  If you're a small business, ideally it means not ever storing the customers' credit card numbers in anything beyond memory so they won't be at risk of being hacked and the customer data stolen.  It also means having to pay the 2 - 3% cut that the credit cad processors all take out of payments, instead of the $0.10 that bitcoin transactions cost, or 1% that Coinbase charges.

There are websites like Coinbase that make managing this process simple enough that I'm pretty confident that I could do it myself without any help, except maybe in the legal arena.  I'd be surprised if that was the case for credit card processing, or if it would be possible to do on my own, I'd wager that it'd cost more to setup, and take quite a bit longer. 

[tvbcof]

Am I wrong in thinking Bitcoin is just a tulip bulb scenario in which an ever-increasing number of new investors is required to keep up the hype, and once there are no more greater fools left, it will crash and I will be rich at the expense of many people out there?

I mean, it's not like I'm investing in something that provides a real value to people. It's not like buying land and charging someone rent, or cooking a meal and setting it down in front of someone at a restaurant.

Yes, I know there is a tiny bit of value in what bitcoin offers that the old systems don't, but even that can only be realized in a best-case scenario (price stabilizes for years on end), which is highly unlikely to happen.

Tell me why I'm wrong and why I shouldn't feel bad for making a lot of money off of BTC.

On balance, Bitcoiners are about the ugliest and most ethically challenged people around.  (It should go without saying that there are exceptions of course.)  Many of the most significant reasons to get into Bitcoin are unsavory (to deal with stolen loot, cheat on taxes, etc.)  A large number of Bitcoiner's would have no qualms about stealing from you directly.  The simple fact that one person put's another person's money into his own pocket is proof enough that the thief has some innate superiority and deserves to have the money.  It's a dog-eat-dog world and it's proper and correct that the most ruthless and capable rise to the top.  Fuck the rest.

Don't worry about making money off these people.  The capital infusions are probably most significant from venture capitalists at this point anyway and they've got plenty of $$$ to give away.  Donate some funds to a worthwhile charity if it bothers you.